216 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

TamiBx wrote...

Now that the PC is voiced, writing "I like your shoes" and hearing the PC say "I like your shoes" is so dumb.

Mike Laidlaw said a similar thing here. This doesn't apply to me. I play the game with subtitles on, so I listen and read everything anyway. However, I can appreciate that not everyone would enjoy this, in the same way that not everyone watches subtitled anime.

He's also mentioned a couple of times that they understand the current problem with paraphrases and are working on it, so I have faith. We'll just have to wait and see.

[TamiBx]

Cultist wrote...

TamiBx wrote...
But if you don't lie the dialogue wheel...what do you suggest instead then?

Isn't it obvious - DA:O system of list of full  dialogue options instead of herpderping.

So let me see if I got this straight: you want tho pick your options from a text style rather than a wheel. But you do realize the character will be voiced, right? And that the lines will have to be "dumbed down" or the PC will sound retarded (like, you pick option "kill the man" and the PC literally says that instead of saying something along those lines, with different words) 

If all you want is the conversation icons to go away, sure. But I don't think they can bring DAO style completely back without sounding weird 

I personally liked the icons; they made it more fun to play, because I could actually pick my character's personality rather than head canon it 

Modifié par TamiBx, 19 août 2012 - 10:04 .

[zyntifox]

TamiBx wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

Without the icons, everybody just complains "How come my character said this in a flirting way!?" or "I thought that was a joke, not a threat!!!"

I personally don't understand how being able to see the intent of a dialog choice ( the same phrase could be sarcastic, threatening, etc... and it's good to know which it will be, exactly, before choosing ) is "dumbing down" the game or limiting choices.

Having icons and having more choices don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I agree.
 Also, DA:O system only worked because the Warden was mute. Now that the PC is voiced, writing "I like your shoes" and hearing the PC say "I like your shoes" is so dumb. 

But if you don't lie the dialogue wheel...what do you suggest instead then? 

So you would rather be suprised by what your character will say? By introducing paraphrasing you are presenting less information than showing the whole sentence. Obviously you will not be suprised/tricked by the paraphrase every time you choose a dialogue option but it will happen. But would you really sacrifice knowing what your character you are roleplaying is going to say because it is simply "dumb"?

I firmly believe that the more information and control of your character is never dumb in a RPG. I think that the paraphrase system works wonders in Mass Effect but that's because i neither consider it nor play it as a RPG. But maybe i am just playing the Dragon age games wrong and should just pick a random dialogue option so Bioware can tell the story they want to tell.

[Cerah]

I like to know exactly what my character is going to say.
As such, I really hated the dialog wheel in DA2, and I much preferred the dialog options in Origins.

However, I did like knowing if I was flirting with a character.
...I can be totally oblivious to things, least when it comes to flirting and the like, so I like to know if I'm saying something flirty or not, ahaha. xD

It's also good to know exactly how you're PC is replying to someone (honestly, sarcastically, ect), but to be fair, people can misinterpret words in real life.

[Cultist]

TamiBx wrote...
So let me see if I got this straight: you want tho pick your options from a text style rather than a wheel. But you do realize the character will be voiced, right? And that the lines will have to be "dumbed down" or the PC will sound retarded (like, you pick option "kill the man" and the PC literally says that instead of saying something along those lines, with different words)

YES! Because i don't want to hear my PC saying "I will kill this child, her mother and granny and that will distract them" when the option stated only as "Distraction". I don't want to guess every phrase and pray that the answer will be at least partly what I wanted to say. Not knowing exactly what your character are going to say - that is what I call retarded.

TamiBx wrote...
I personally liked the icons; they made it more fun to play, because I could actually pick my character's personality rather than head canon it

you actually head cannon personality by constantly clicking top, middle or bottom option, well...because there is no other otions.

[Kidd]

Why would you stick to only one icon? Is your character so stale they react the same way to everything?

[nightscrawl]

Cultist wrote...

YES! Because i don't want to hear my PC saying "I will kill this child, her mother and granny and that will distract them" when the option stated only as "Distraction".

Lol...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Why would you stick to only one icon? Is your character so stale they react the same way to everything?

It depends really. I've mentioned this in other threads, but it's generally more of a metagaming thing. If you know how the system works are are trying to keep in the same personality for your character you very well might pick mostly the same icons. Of course, that goes into the different topic of picking dialogue based soley on the icons, rather than paraphrases, which diminishes the value of the actual dialogue.

For my canon play, yes I will choose the option that best fits the situation and the person I am talking to. However, that doesn't help the game with your personality if you pick mostly reds when dealing with mages, pick mostly purples when dealing with your friends, and mostly blues when dealing with your family. There is also no meter (as in SWTOR) to show you if you are sliding into one area or other, so you can alter your behavior accordingly. This is a double eged sword I think. You might say "Having a meter takes away from the RP value, or the authenticity." But, savvy players know an unseen meter exists anyway, and we already have meters for things like friendship/rivalry. If we are going to have meters, we might as well see everything.

For this reason, even though I think the personality concept was a good one, I don't think it works, or at least not well the way it was implemented in DA2. I would prefer a relatively neutral personality, with tonal responses based on your dialogue choice, reflective of (1) your mood at the time, (2) your audience, and (3) the situation, without it affecting your overall personality. Sure, while there are people who are always optimists (blue), always flippant (purple), or always serious/angry (red), most people are not that way all the time.

I would much prefer having icons + full line. As I mentioned earlier, it doesn't seem redundant to me since I play with the subtitles on. But again, this is just my preference. That said, I'm willing to wait and see what they have in store as far as new paraphrases go. I certainly couldn't have minded DA2 paraphrases too much since I've played it a dozen times... lol. But, those dozen times were certainly enough to show me that it's an area that needs work.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 20 août 2012 - 08:02 .

[Corto81]

I don't understand, and I never will.

Dialog trees have worked and work in any successful RPG from the beginning of time to this day.

Why the need to change to a dialogue wheel that is dumbed down (opinion), worse (opinion) and has gotten either negative or polarizing reception at best (FACT).

The icons only make it worse.

DA:O treats you like a grown up.
Witcher 2 treats you like a grown up.
Skyrim treats you like a grown up.
Dark Souls treats you like a grown up.
etc etc

DA2 treats you like you're a lazy, ignorant child with an attention span of a baby donkey.
And the dialogue wheel is only the tip of the ice berg.

[zyntifox]

I think the option of selecting the tone can be a quite good function in a RPG. This is assuming that the tone icon is selected together with the full dialogue, not a paraphrase of the dialogue. Using paraphrasing automatically breaks the game's dialogue system and turns it from a RPG to an interactive game.

The problem is that you cannot have just one dialogue option per tone. Because, let's assume i am roleplaying an aggressive bastard i will always "choose" the dialogue option with the appropriate icon next to it. But if there is only one option you may as well just let us choose the tone in the CC and let us watch the game as a movie. Having one option per tone forces you to rolepick instead of roleplay.

However, implementing a tone system with two or more responses per tone will be very expensive if it's to be done right. And since Bioware did not have sufficient resources to make more than one cave in DA2 i seriously doubt it is something Bioware will ever do.

Modifié par Cstaf, 20 août 2012 - 10:22 .

[Kidd]

nightscrawl wrote...

it's generally more of a metagaming thing. If you know how the system works are are trying to keep in the same personality for your character you very well might pick mostly the same icons.
(...)
However, that doesn't help the game with your personality if you pick mostly reds when dealing with mages, pick mostly purples when dealing with your friends, and mostly blues when dealing with your family. There is also no meter (as in SWTOR) to show you if you are sliding into one area or other, so you can alter your behavior accordingly. This is a double eged sword I think. You might say "Having a meter takes away from the RP value, or the authenticity." But, savvy players know an unseen meter exists anyway, and we already have meters for things like friendship/rivalry. If we are going to have meters, we might as well see everything.

For this reason, even though I think the personality concept was a good one, I don't think it works, or at least not well the way it was implemented in DA2.

Very good points!

I've never accidentally had Hawke swap personality type on me even though I usually let all my characters freely wander the dialogue selections according to what is proper for them at the time, but I definitely recognise how these things could be issues. Suppose I've just been lucky. Or perhaps it's more like very unlucky if the personality system screws you over - I don't know since this isn't documented or shown to the player anywhere.

I can definitely see how worries about a hidden variable may take you out of the experience. The same thing happens to me with romances all the time in DAO and DA2 alike, where I pick flirty dialogue at times even though it feels over-the-top for that character just because I'm not sure whether the romance will progress or not if I don't hit those exact flirts (DAO) / hearts (DA2).

Perhaps the icons would not be an issue if the personality system simply didn't exist? Personality system lends itself to auto-dialogue any way, though I must admit it was pretty cool how different Hawkes could say different things when I pick the same dialogue options at times depending on how they've been played before.

[Sejborg]

I liked the idea behind the icons, but I do not like the result. They should be removed.

I like the way Deus Ex: HR have the sentence written, or if it is too long, then at least some of it written. Bioware should take note of this.

[Razhathael]

So many see the icons and their first reaction is "oh no, they treat us RPG players like idiots, as if we couldn't know what they meant already".

But in truth I think it's a very necessary feature. No, you can't always know what options say without the icons. How do you know the middle option isn't a flirt this time? Or the persuasion option isn't just a question? How do you know the "question" on the left isn't a choice that ends the whole cutscene (happened in ME games).

You can't, so the choices they have are making some icons that show what your actions do, or go through massive trouble of always thinking "how can I make this sound as flirty as possible so there's no chance they take it the wrong way?", that is just an example of course. But really, the DA2 dialogue system would be a horrible mess where you would have to fear accidentally flirting with someone all the time. It is an efficent solution and I think it's ridiculous people want it removed.

The personality behaviour is a debatable matter, but the icons should be there to stay and I would be quite disappointed if they didn't. The reason it works in Mass Effect games is because there are actually very few dialogue choices compared to DA2, and the additional ones are shown in blue or red, kind of like the icons. ME2 might be equal, but even there some neutral options are supposed "paragon" even if it's supposed to be...neutral?

No need to fix that which isn't broken, if you feel like a baby because of it, just find a way to remove them, which is a silly concept. But I hope Bioware adds a feature where you can turn them off in DA3, I'd love to see everyone choosing it struggling with speech options because of the way the dialogue wheel is designed.

[nightscrawl]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...


I've never accidentally had Hawke swap personality type on me even though I usually let all my characters freely wander the dialogue selections according to what is proper for them at the time, but I definitely recognise how these things could be issues. Suppose I've just been lucky. Or perhaps it's more like very unlucky if the personality system screws you over - I don't know since this isn't documented or shown to the player anywhere.

Lack of documentation is a problem in general.

As far as the personality switching goes, I tend to slide more into diplomatic after a time, unless a make the effort to stay into humorous or aggressive.

[Cultist]

There's a huge difference between Agressive and Direct approach, yet they fall into one Red icon.

[SerTabris]

I would like to have the icons with a 'paraphrase+hover for full line' system. The icon and paraphrase is usually sufficient for me to make a decision, but every once in a while I'm unsure. On the other hand, even with the full line, I'd like to see the tone that it's delivered in. That could, of course, also be done in text (coming soon: the all-elcor production of Dragon Age III).

Also, for me one issue with the 'flirt' options is that the DA2 conversation system makes me think "well, this is not an appropriate time, but I don't know if I'll get another chance to say it, so I'd better take it"; if we could talk to our party at will like DA:O that issue would be resolved. I also like the idea that taking all the flirt options might be an unsuccessful strategy; the intent is still clear, but the response may be less so.

One minor thing: the flirt icon itself looks out-of-place to me. I don't think it fits in stylistically with all the rest.

[Lord Issa]

I have a suggestion to make, although I'm not sure anyone except myself will like it very much. Basically, I think that the three options should be changed from 'diplomatic, funny and aggressive' to 'affable, funny and argumentative'. Each option should then split into 'diplomatic and aggressive'. For example, if you were set upon by bandits:

Bandit: Stand and deliver, etc.

<You click affable>

If you click aggressive:

You: Sorry, but that's not an option. <attack>

If you click diplomatic:

You: We can talk this out-I don't want to hurt you. <persuasion check>

<You click funny>

If you click aggressive:

You: If you want to make a fool of yourself, you'll find no arguments here, Serah. <attack>

If you click diplomatic:

You: Look at my sword/staff/daggers. Now back to me. Look at yourself. I think running would be a wise option now, no? <intimidation check> 

<You click argumentative>

If you click aggressive:

You: You'll regret this, you fool! <attack>

If you click diplomatic:

You: Much as I would enjoy tearing you apart, I'm n a good mood today-you should take care to ensure I remain that way. <intimidation check>




Wow, wasn't expecting to write that much. O.O Thoughts?

[Cultist]

All that could be replaced with text like [Sarcasm], [Joke] or similar with greater clarity and understanding for players, than icons.