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Extended Cut: SPOILER Discussion


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#2626
BlueStorm83

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3DandBeyond wrote...

ME is so much about the characters and very specifically about Shepard. But in the end they tried to take a very simple story of people (a core group and the larger galaxy) fighting to remain wholly themselves in order to save their homes and they morphed it into something that ended up not being about that at all. Javik said it so many times-Shepard wanted to do things while keeping honor intact (he at first thought this impossible) and then he says that the strength of this cycle was in learning to work together. But that has nothing to do with what happens at the end. The choices Shepard is given totally deny that that matters at all. It would have been far easier to make a choice if it were the Protheans or any autocratic regime doing so. Those that strive for better things can't find a decent choice and are denied a decent ending. This is a freaking game. I don't mean utopia, but one path to real success on Shepard's terms.


Oh hell, JAVIK.  I can't even BEGIN to imagine how enraged and betrayed he would be if I pick Control.  Or SYNTHESIS?!  There is no way- NO WAY that Javik would not go on a Galaxy Spanning Killing Spree in either of those scenarios.  In Control, well, I'd have to kill him.  In Synthesis, what would that have to do?  Entirely re-write his personality?

Sheaper:  "Immortal.  Infinite.  Eternal.  The man I was used these wor- Javik?  Oh hell, put down that Cain.  Really, it's me, Shepard!  This is a good thing, trust me!  No, DON'TSHOOTTHATTHI-" (BOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!)

#2627
MrM0nium

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 Like everybody above my post I have put in well over 500 hrs in this game, ME1, ME2 and ME3 combined ofcourse. I did not join the "I hate Bioware/EA bandwagon because 1% of my game sucked". But I didn't like the endings either. I was pretty much checking out and digging the "indoctrination theory", and was hoping you'd  use that.  But the ME3 experience was so good, and fast that I was willing to forgive, you,  Bioware. Besides I was playing your games for over 15 years. I have put, (estimating here). well over 2000 hours in your products.

Yes, I still like the plot twist in SW:KOTOR, and Baldur's Gate (one and two) franchises better. They were awesome. Like when we all watched the Sixth Sense for the first time.

When I read that you used the words "artistic integrity" my heart sank. You could have swallowed the big one and take the "out" Bioware.. Everybody and their dogs were offering it to you: The Indoctrination Theory. But you didn't.

Last night I played through the paragorn part of the Extended Cut. I played 2 of the endings. I was amazed, and emotional. I literally cried. It was really well put together.

You would have gotten (on a scale of 1 to 10) an 14 but succesfully implementing the IT. But you receive a 8 by the Extended cut ending as is. The ending now truely is an ending. The 8 is a major improvement of the original 3.

You could always (nudge at EA) offer the entire IT as DLC... I know I'd pay for it. And you still leave the door open ( but closing a lot of them on the way).

 Again Bioware; Thanks; you have once again moved me emotionally with one of your products!

#2628
3DandBeyond

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BlueStorm83 wrote...


---  I can answer each and every one of your remaining questions.

For every one, just picture me repeating "Because it was badly written and badly made, without any quality checking."

---  OH!  And when you said, as a pro "Clarification on how Shepard's crew mates ended up on the Normandy."

That wasn't a clarification.  That was them actually CHANGING something.  The first time through, they just 100% never thought about it.  You can, in an un-patched Mass Effect 3, walk backwards in that last conduit approach scene, and your squadmates are with you right up until Harbinger's beam destroys the game.

But as far as the Stargazer, he just says to the grandchild that he can go to the stars "one day."  This could simply be "You're too young to go into space."  Which is probably a good idea: space is HELLA dangerous.


Stargazer also says there could be many star systems with many worlds with many different kinds of life on them-paraphrased.  It implies the stargazer does not know what's out there.  He doesn't say with certainty that there are many worlds with all different kinds of life.  Of course, he doesn't say categorically that they cannot travel to stars or different systems, but...If I existed in a spacefaring culture with galactic travel and my grandchild asked me when can I go to the stars, I can think of several real answers.  In ME, children do travel in space.  The stargazer might have said that the child's father will take him/her tomorrow or next month.  Or maybe say the kid can go when old enough.  The problem is the whole statement by the grandpa is gratuitous.  The kid only asked when he could go to the stars.  The grandpa didn't need to say it so it adds importance to what he says.

It's like someone asking me if I will go to the store and I say that I will go soon and then I say that the mall might have nice dress shops and the dress shops might have nice dresses-you can reasonably assume I have not been to the mall and I do not know if there are nice dress shops with nice dresses there.

#2629
InHumanTurtle

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It was a lot better, but still annoying in many places. Starchild was still a sore point, Harbinger not shooting the Normandy on its decent was also very stupid, even if the Reaper IFF was protecting it (we would assume a Reaper is smart enough to not rely entirely on that for targeting...) But the endings themselves were a lot better.

One thing though, It is never mentioned if the control ending limits itself to Reapers or not, there are two things worth pointing out in either case:

1) If all synthetics are controlled: Wouldn't Shepard still technically be able to upload him/herself to a physical platform? Or even communicate directly with EDI? Why is he/she limited to the citadel? Although that does bring up the debate as to whether it is really "Shepard" anymore...

2) If it only targets Reapers, then why is it that the Destroy ending kills everything? Surely if it can limit control to Reapers then it is capable of identifying them, so therefore it can also do the same with destruction... It feels more like they only added that downside in to make the other options more plausible, in which case, they should have thought more about player choice in regards to how shepard reacts to TIM's ideas, and other thoughts of control in general, throughout the game.

#2630
Hidden Wires

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      I just wanted to say thank you Bioware!!!
 You did a awesome job fixing it. You should have done it this way the first time Posted Image

#2631
3DandBeyond

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Hidden Wires wrote...

      I just wanted to say thank you Bioware!!!
 You did a awesome job fixing it. You should have done it this way the first time Posted Image


They didn't fix it, they added a lot more words.

#2632
BlueStorm83

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3DandBeyond wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...


---  I can answer each and every one of your remaining questions.

For every one, just picture me repeating "Because it was badly written and badly made, without any quality checking."

---  OH!  And when you said, as a pro "Clarification on how Shepard's crew mates ended up on the Normandy."

That wasn't a clarification.  That was them actually CHANGING something.  The first time through, they just 100% never thought about it.  You can, in an un-patched Mass Effect 3, walk backwards in that last conduit approach scene, and your squadmates are with you right up until Harbinger's beam destroys the game.

But as far as the Stargazer, he just says to the grandchild that he can go to the stars "one day."  This could simply be "You're too young to go into space."  Which is probably a good idea: space is HELLA dangerous.


Stargazer also says there could be many star systems with many worlds with many different kinds of life on them-paraphrased.  It implies the stargazer does not know what's out there.  He doesn't say with certainty that there are many worlds with all different kinds of life.  Of course, he doesn't say categorically that they cannot travel to stars or different systems, but...If I existed in a spacefaring culture with galactic travel and my grandchild asked me when can I go to the stars, I can think of several real answers.  In ME, children do travel in space.  The stargazer might have said that the child's father will take him/her tomorrow or next month.  Or maybe say the kid can go when old enough.  The problem is the whole statement by the grandpa is gratuitous.  The kid only asked when he could go to the stars.  The grandpa didn't need to say it so it adds importance to what he says.

It's like someone asking me if I will go to the store and I say that I will go soon and then I say that the mall might have nice dress shops and the dress shops might have nice dresses-you can reasonably assume I have not been to the mall and I do not know if there are nice dress shops with nice dresses there.


---  Very true, he isn't very knowledgable about everything out there.  But perhaps he's just allowing for there being many unexplored planets and systems out there.  Galaxy's a big place.  He does say that "our galaxy" has billions of stars and each of those stars could have worlds, and each of those worlds could have a species.  But honestly, that's more in resonance of Star Trek's whole "Seek out new life and new civilizations," and "boldly go where no man has gone before," themes.  They wanted to give us a universe where there's still unexplored whatevers.  Why?

Because they admit that they might screw the pooch in a new IP and want to come back and do a 10,000 years later Mass Effect game with new species or something.

---  As to the guy about the Control Ending:  Why couldn't Shepard tell the Reapers to make a clone Shepard body with an EDI style brain in it, and then just download himself into it?  Then he could still be Meat Shepard, but also commanding the Reapers at the same time.  And Command them to all FLY TO HELL AND DIE.  Then poof, Starboy dead, Reapers dead, Shepard as the immortal commander of... himself... inside a typical meat body that will die one day.  EDI alive.  Geth alive.  Reapers dead.  Starboy deleted.  Shepard able to get it on with his LI without also doing half of the city that she or he is living in.

#2633
BlueStorm83

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3DandBeyond wrote...

Hidden Wires wrote...

      I just wanted to say thank you Bioware!!!
 You did a awesome job fixing it. You should have done it this way the first time Posted Image


They didn't fix it, they added a lot more words.


---  Gotta disagree again.  They returned control of Shepard's actions to the player, and they no longer force you into 3 abhorent choices.  The narrative flow and gameplay WERE fixed.

But before they were broken horse turds.  Now they're WORKING horse turds.  Now you can have Shepard ask exactly WHAT the three abhorent choices will do.  And he can refuse to take them... and win the game by losing the game.  But hey, at least the game isn't broken.




Seriously, BioWare, get back in there, remember that you're making a VIDEO GAME that's about FIGHTING AGAINST THE ODDS and BEATING THEM ON YOUR OWN TERMS, and give us the end of MASS EFFECT.  Whatever it is that you've Fixed at the end of the game isn't worthy of the rest of your back catalogue.

#2634
Luis_Said

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Hello guys, Hi bioware.
I personally want to say Thank you Bioware.
The New extra content is what i expected from such a talented team.
I am happy to say that i can let pass a minor error like the first end :)
T-H-A-N-K-S.

BiOwArE

Modifié par Luis_Said, 05 juillet 2012 - 11:56 .


#2635
BlueStorm83

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--- X-play reviewed the Extended Cut today. They completely ignored all of the absolutely 100% broken stuff (Listed below) and are taking the rather predictable stance of "This is a dangerous precedent." X-play being owned by G4 which is a branch of IGN which Jessica Chobot works for who, hey, look at that, is IN THE GAME. Conflict of Interest much?

(Original broken ME3 things)

1) How the hell did my squad get out of the blast crater from the Harb Beam and onto the Normandy?

2) Relays Exploded? That kills EVERYONE!

3) Magic Torso fell from space and LIVES!'

4) Shouldn't Tali and Garrus starve on the new Jungle Eden?

5) Wouldn't the shockwaves kill everyone everywhere?

6) Without Mass Relay travel, wouldn't the fleets all die before they could get home?

7) How the hell can Shepard control anything while he's dead?

8) How the **** can you synthesize machines into half-meat???

9) Why the hell should we do ANYTHING that the CREATOR OF THE REAPERS suggests?

I'm always amazed at how people can DARE say that this might stop BioWare or other companies from taking chances. Uh, if taking a chance results in total abject FAILURE then it's not a chance to take. If I run into the street with my eyes closed, I MIGHT make it to the other side. But it's probably smarter to listen to people who say "Open your eyes, MORON, there's a better way to do it!"

Though I have to give props to Morgan Webb, who seemed to be having a slight undertone of being glad that the EC at least explained a lot of stuff, though she couldn't say that she didn't like the original endings.

#2636
BlueStorm83

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Luis_Said wrote...

Hello guys, Hi bioware.
I personally want to say Thank you Bioware.
The New extra content is what i expected from such a talented team.
I am happy to say that i can let pass a minor error like the first end :)
T-H-A-N-K-S.

BiOwArE


---  I want to ask: why thank BioWare?  They don't deserve any thanks.  We pay for their products.  They're not our friends, our families, or our compatriots.  They're a corporation, and nothing else, and when they get our money we should get a product worth that money.  When the EC fixes legitimate problems, we shouldn't thank them, we should say "It's about goddamn time.  Don't let this bull**** happen again."

#2637
babachewie

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BlueStorm83 wrote...

Luis_Said wrote...

Hello guys, Hi bioware.
I personally want to say Thank you Bioware.
The New extra content is what i expected from such a talented team.
I am happy to say that i can let pass a minor error like the first end :)
T-H-A-N-K-S.

BiOwArE


---  I want to ask: why thank BioWare?  They don't deserve any thanks.  We pay for their products.  They're not our friends, our families, or our compatriots.  They're a corporation, and nothing else, and when they get our money we should get a product worth that money.  When the EC fixes legitimate problems, we shouldn't thank them, we should say "It's about goddamn time.  Don't let this bull**** happen again."

Wow you must be a sad and lonely person with no life. You are literally on here everyday spiting bullcrap and hate on people who just are satisfied. A lot of people are happy now. No one gives a crap about you or what you think. 

#2638
BlueStorm83

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babachewie wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Luis_Said wrote...

Hello guys, Hi bioware.
I personally want to say Thank you Bioware.
The New extra content is what i expected from such a talented team.
I am happy to say that i can let pass a minor error like the first end :)
T-H-A-N-K-S.

BiOwArE


---  I want to ask: why thank BioWare?  They don't deserve any thanks.  We pay for their products.  They're not our friends, our families, or our compatriots.  They're a corporation, and nothing else, and when they get our money we should get a product worth that money.  When the EC fixes legitimate problems, we shouldn't thank them, we should say "It's about goddamn time.  Don't let this bull**** happen again."

Wow you must be a sad and lonely person with no life. You are literally on here everyday spiting bullcrap and hate on people who just are satisfied. A lot of people are happy now. No one gives a crap about you or what you think. 


---  Okay, I'll bite.  Who have I "hated on?"  I asked this guy a question.

Yes, I am on here every day.  My time is mine to use however I choose.  If I want to waste it "spitting bullcrap" that's my perrogative.

A lot of people are happy now.  Good for them!  I never told anyone to stop being happy.  Again, I just asked him a question.

Nobody gives a crap about me or what I think?  But then why are you replying to me?  Apparently YOU care about me and what I think.  You can't stand that I have an opinion counter to your own.  You are doing exactly what you accuse me of.  And before you toss this back at me, yes, I do care about you and what you think.  Have a great day!

#2639
AresKeith

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the real weapon against the Reapers should have been Galactus lol ;)

#2640
BlueStorm83

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AresKeith wrote...

the real weapon against the Reapers should have been Galactus lol ;)


Seconded!

#2641
AresKeith

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BlueStorm83 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the real weapon against the Reapers should have been Galactus lol ;)


Seconded!


or a Transformers plot twist lol

#2642
holmcross

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EC still sucks. The extra detail is fine, the entirely-fan-supplied plothole/lorehole fixes were also fine, but guess what? All three endings look even more interchangeable now that they're all happy.

And the EC, of course, still doesn't address the core problem is that this is a ****ty, Deus Ex Machina ending to a brilliantly real and detailed sci-fi/fantasy universe. They took Star Wars and gave it the ending of The Matrix Revelations. Forcing Shepard to make a deal with the Reaper Overmind as the only way to solve this conflict is patently absurd (just as it was in Matrix Revelations), and only gets more absurd with the pandering explanations of the EC.

It's pretty clear they wrote themselves into a bad corner, and then when people said THIS CORNER SUCKS, they made the additional horrible choice to defend that corner in the name of "artistic integrity." Staunchly defending terrible artistic choices doesn't make those choices any less terrible.

You can take a pile of crap and put it between two slices of bread with a toothpicked olive to make a crap sandwich. It doesn't make the crap more edible.

Congrats, Bioware. You Fail Fiction Forever.

#2643
adam32867

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AresKeith wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the real weapon against the Reapers should have been Galactus lol ;)


Seconded!


or a Transformers plot twist lol

metal gear

#2644
tek427

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I'm very satisfied by the EC. Thank you Bioware for taking the time to clarify everything.  My only problem now is that I can't decide whether I like the Synthesis or Destruction ending better. Posted Image

Although I like having organics and robots cooperating and EDI getting full self-awareness, It feels wierd messing around with the genetic material of EVERYTHING.

Destruction is a typical storybook ending -- the bad guys are rusted tourist attractions and the galaxy is saved, which I'm okay with. Except I don't like how we have to kill EDI and all the geth in the process, especially since we went through all the trouble (and Legion's sacrifice) to make the geth individuals and peace with the quarians. I know in war there are sacrifices, but when do we sacrifice too much?

#2645
DirtyPhoenix

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I'm happy with the EC, got my closure and it covered up most of the plot holes. The endings are now unique and shows the consequences of my actions. So overall satisfied. Though I'm not sure I should thank Bioware or not. This material should have been in the game when it came months ago. The only reason not to be, is EA rushed them, and they released a half-assed product and now making up for it. Hopefully they'll show some spine in the future.

#2646
Lucrece

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I've loved Mass Effect. Mass Effect 2 was an amazing experience, and so was Mass Effect 3, until the ending. I'm sorry to say the Extended Cut did little alleviate my aching, and in my case actually made it worse. I'll explain:

Destroy Ending, met EMT requirements for breath scene. During the non-EC playthrough, EDI comes out of the Normandy, in Destroy ending. Even if she didn't the fact that Shepard breather gave me the hope of calling a bluff on the Catalyst. The EC smashed that hope to pieces by making EDI die and the Geth be wiped out definitive.

The end result of that is that I feel blackmailed to kill my Shepard through a Control or Synthesis ending, or invalidate my previous playthroughs. I played Mass Effect 2, laboriously getting all DLC's done, the suicide mission with all survivors, and having enough Paragon to resolve conflicts. That Mass Effect 2 play figured into my ability to have Geth/Quarian peace, which would have not been possible in a fresh ME3 game. I had to work for it, and I had to work to see EDI's growth as well as legion from mere AI to actualized individuals.

The endings made me feel punished for wanting my Shepard to live and reunite with his love interest, because doing so made Geth/Quarian peace gameplay efforts moot, and I myself killed one of my crew and wiped out an entire race as a tacked on price to the ONLY ending where my Shepard can live. And the payoff? A heaving chest and my LI just looking up while holding a placard.

EDI and the Geth's death is different from that of Mordin or Thane. I would not have minded if they had died in the line of duty. But they didn't die in the line of duty or from natural causes -- I murdered EDI and the Geth because they were made narrative hostages to artificially balance ending choices.

I get the feeling developers feared people would easily choose the one ending where Shepard lived if the other 3 (new Refusal) had him dying. So, they tacked on a cost of your crew and an entire race to make it seem "difficult". The only way a choice was made difficult is by choosing the less aggravating ending, because the end result of these available endings is that none are particularly uplifting to me. I have had enough sorrow in my life -- "bittersweet" doesn't speak to me.

Were my expectations really wrong? In both Mass Effect 1/2 I had the option to work hard to get uplifting endings. In the third, I import that hard work, and put in even more hard work into the third installment, only to see that work just determines how much is destroyed. I have no hope of uplifting resolution. Either my heroic avatar dies and is separated from his love interest and trusty crew, or he lives and wipes out a race on of his crew sacrificed for, while killing another crew member that happened to be the love interest of another crew mate (Joker).

Mass Effect is all about Shepard and your crew. That's what you have emotional proximity and investment with. I'm very sensitive to any situation revolving around my crew, and the endings were brutal one way or the other to this crew. The endings don't leave me admiring the future -- they leave my throat hurting at the mortification of a somber closure to a very important chapter of my gaming life.

What's worse, it seems they went out of their way with favoring the Synthesis ending. It becomes an Utopia, and has perks over all others with the slides showing Kasumi reuniting with Keiji. Yet the costs are so basic -- kill someone in your crew, whether it be Shepard or EDI and Legion's dream. Mac Walters had said EDI might survive. What happened? Why the change of mind?

Either way, I'm deflated. I won't say outright that I will not buy further Bioware products, because I've had good experiences with Dragon Age and most of Mass Effect. The quality of production is superb. But I don't play games and invest so many years in a franchise to be depressed. And if depressing is the artistic choice of the team for any of its games, then I'm afraid I'd rather skip on the self-flagellation.

At the very least Bioware could have done better to signal to customers that the first two installments they had bought would have tragic conclusions so we didn't have to invest in the wrong game. The way the first two games allowed me to have a happy ending leave me sucker punched by the third.

I know some might feel differently, and I am deeply saddened that this is the final resolution we will get from the developers. I wanted to remember Mass Effect, not have to mentally edit my memories of the game to black out the endings and try to remember the game moments before they were marred with the available unforgiving resolutions.

I'll probably need some time to recover from the morale killer these endings have been. The EC brought other beautiful moments like the conduit run LI scenes, with Kaidan finally telling my John Sheppard he loved him back. But all that is severely lessened by the final outcome, where if I finally want to have a life with my LI I have to murder very dear crew and wipe out an entire race that had just been redeemed, or widow Kaidan to keep them alive.

I didn't want to come off entitled, but why? Why is it so terrible that I be allowed to work for an ending where my Shepard lives and EDI doesn't die? Is it really such a threat to the integrity of the story?

Modifié par Lucrece, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:59 .


#2647
AresKeith

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adam32867 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the real weapon against the Reapers should have been Galactus lol ;)


Seconded!


or a Transformers plot twist lol

metal gear


Metal Gear Rex and Ray taking down Reapers, YES

#2648
GloryToChaos

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So clearly not everything was fixed and there are still some glaring plot issues but let's face it, the endings, especially the new synthesis one give you that warm snuggly feeling inside that we've all wanted for so long.

#2649
i am gustavox

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GloryToChaos wrote...

So clearly not everything was fixed and there are still some glaring plot issues but let's face it, the endings, especially the new synthesis one give you that warm snuggly feeling inside that we've all wanted for so long.


Ive been waiting for that feeling you get when you blow the crap out of Harbinger, the main antagonist from the second game who you never get to fight.  Im sure Saren felt all warm and snuggly when he blew his own head off and turned into a crazy robot frog thing.  

#2650
AresKeith

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GloryToChaos wrote...

So clearly not everything was fixed and there are still some glaring plot issues but let's face it, the endings, especially the new synthesis one give you that warm snuggly feeling inside that we've all wanted for so long.


your joking right?