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Extended Cut: SPOILER Discussion


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#2651
Knight3000

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With all the extra bull**** they put into the EC which as far as im concerned resolved nothing. but raised more annoying questions.

they tried to show how your squad got on board the normandy yet let it sit there for sooo long that Harby could have destroyed it 10 times over... the fact that he left it alone is rediculous.

when you ask the star brat about who designed the crucible, the kid answers that i wouldn't know them and there isn't enough time to tell me yet he has time to rave on about other ****.

The garbage in the EC is what should have been in the game to start with... The EC we should have gotten was to fix that crap for it to make sense!

Modifié par Knight3000, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:26 .


#2652
KiganMatsuei

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GloryToChaos wrote...

So clearly not everything was fixed and there are still some glaring plot issues but let's face it, the endings, especially the new synthesis one give you that warm snuggly feeling inside that we've all wanted for so long.


Everything was fixed? Not quite...

Synthesis doesn't give me a warm snuggly feeling.

It gives me a "I just forced technological evolution onto all organic life and organic evolution onto all synthetic life without their consent" feelig.

There were people in game that were very clear on the fact that they didn't want implants, so how am I supposed to feel good about forcing this on them?

Synthesis shows that after proving Synthetics AND Organics can evolve on their own (as with Krogans/Turians, EDI, and the Quarians/Geth conflict) I'm suddenly saying they can't and need me to force it. All this time trying to show that the races of this cycle can stand on their own, uniting them through hard work, at the end throwing that away and deciding they can't.

No thanks. I feel quite cold after Synthesis ending.

Modifié par KiganMatsuei, 06 juillet 2012 - 12:04 .


#2653
Goat_Shepard

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Lucrece wrote...
EDI and the Geth's death is different from that of Mordin or Thane. I would not have minded if they had died in the line of duty. But they didn't die in the line of duty or from natural causes -- I murdered EDI and the Geth because they were made narrative hostages to artificially balance ending choices.

I get the feeling developers feared people would easily choose the one ending where Shepard lived if the other 3 (new Refusal) had him dying. So, they tacked on a cost of your crew and an entire race to make it seem "difficult". The only way a choice was made difficult is by choosing the less aggravating ending, because the end result of these available endings is that none are particularly uplifting to me. I have had enough sorrow in my life -- "bittersweet" doesn't speak to me.

Agreed. It's clear to me that the ending(s) were not laborious, and definitely not with love. Everything in the EC either should have been in the game 4 months ago (like the Catalyst dialogue and epilogue, which I'm sure makes every preorder or opening day customer utterly jubilant), or it introduced new inconsistencies and plot holes that cheapens the entire experience. Besides that, I'm just tired of how out-of-touch Bioware is, and their compulsive lying. It started before the game was even released with oh so many promises, and continued with "We won't change the endings" translated to "We changed the endings". "It will be more than cutscenes" meaning "It's only cutscenes/dialogue". You want to talk about artistic integrity and then contradict one action after another? You know how frustrating it is to be incessantly lied to by a company that boasts about how close their relationship is with their fans? "We didn't think there was a high demand for closure even though we're such a tight-knit community and the majority of posts are within the Character and Romance discussion forum." It's a joke, and thus I can't take this company seriously anymore.

#2654
Sovereign Skyguardian

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Bioware is done for me. I won't ever buy a game of bioware again. The endings are still bullsh*t and make no sense at all.
Refusal is the biggest joke of Gamehistory and kinda tells you not to lean against the makers (Bioware) because they have the power.
Sorry. Thats not how you treat fans.

#2655
sdinc009

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babachewie wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Luis_Said wrote...

Hello guys, Hi bioware.
I personally want to say Thank you Bioware.
The New extra content is what i expected from such a talented team.
I am happy to say that i can let pass a minor error like the first end :)
T-H-A-N-K-S.

BiOwArE


---  I want to ask: why thank BioWare?  They don't deserve any thanks.  We pay for their products.  They're not our friends, our families, or our compatriots.  They're a corporation, and nothing else, and when they get our money we should get a product worth that money.  When the EC fixes legitimate problems, we shouldn't thank them, we should say "It's about goddamn time.  Don't let this bull**** happen again."

Wow you must be a sad and lonely person with no life. You are literally on here everyday spiting bullcrap and hate on people who just are satisfied. A lot of people are happy now. No one gives a crap about you or what you think. 


Oh babachewie, it's been so long, how have you been? Well, why don't we get right into it, what do you say? Firstly, Bluestorm 83 asked a question that addresses a significant issue regarding the direction the gaming industry is seemingly taking. Asking this is not hating on anyone here, but merely opens the issue up for discussion. You, however, start your post with an insult and your entire post serves to do nothing but instigate, insult, and belittle someone who is expressing their legitimate discontent with a product that should not have gone to market without adding anything of intellectual value. Also, I have had many discussions with Bluestorm83 and I do give a crap.

#2656
sdinc009

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GloryToChaos wrote...

So clearly not everything was fixed and there are still some glaring plot issues but let's face it, the endings, especially the new synthesis one give you that warm snuggly feeling inside that we've all wanted for so long.


What warm snuggly feeling, where!? And Synthesis certainly did not give a warm snuggly anything. That's the worst of all the endings. Ok, let's go full retard and completely change the genetic makeup of all life regadless of whether they want to or not with non-sensical space magic.  And, from a narrative perspective, this is complete garbage. Merging of synthetics and organics is what harvesting is, so right out of the gate this choice shoudl be abhorent. This choice is essentially saying the Reapers are right. So, really, 3 games of defiance against a monstrous unknowable antagonist and in the end they were right all along, weee everyone drink your koolaid we're going to the f@#$ing mothership.

#2657
G_r_I_f_F_i_N

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I hope Bioware will listen to the major part of its fans, and will bring us more choices in ME3 ending, with a detailed story of what was after. Otherwise, I'am realy disappointed. There is no any use in saving "destiny of ascension", searching planets, or anything... There is no use to start playing this game from a scratch in ME1, no reason to buy any DLCs.

#2658
sdinc009

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Goat_Shepard wrote...

Lucrece wrote...
EDI and the Geth's death is different from that of Mordin or Thane. I would not have minded if they had died in the line of duty. But they didn't die in the line of duty or from natural causes -- I murdered EDI and the Geth because they were made narrative hostages to artificially balance ending choices.

I get the feeling developers feared people would easily choose the one ending where Shepard lived if the other 3 (new Refusal) had him dying. So, they tacked on a cost of your crew and an entire race to make it seem "difficult". The only way a choice was made difficult is by choosing the less aggravating ending, because the end result of these available endings is that none are particularly uplifting to me. I have had enough sorrow in my life -- "bittersweet" doesn't speak to me.

Agreed. It's clear to me that the ending(s) were not laborious, and definitely not with love. Everything in the EC either should have been in the game 4 months ago (like the Catalyst dialogue and epilogue, which I'm sure makes every preorder or opening day customer utterly jubilant), or it introduced new inconsistencies and plot holes that cheapens the entire experience. Besides that, I'm just tired of how out-of-touch Bioware is, and their compulsive lying. It started before the game was even released with oh so many promises, and continued with "We won't change the endings" translated to "We changed the endings". "It will be more than cutscenes" meaning "It's only cutscenes/dialogue". You want to talk about artistic integrity and then contradict one action after another? You know how frustrating it is to be incessantly lied to by a company that boasts about how close their relationship is with their fans? "We didn't think there was a high demand for closure even though we're such a tight-knit community and the majority of posts are within the Character and Romance discussion forum." It's a joke, and thus I can't take this company seriously anymore.


And this is arguably the biggest problem with this whole debacle. Yeah the orignal endings were complete and total crap. The EC DLC, as a stand alone was good only because it served to bring an F to a C+. It's how Bioware handled this whole thing that still has many (myself included) still fuming. How difficult is it really to just swallow your pride, admit you made a mistake, and correct it? Bioware, change your PR strategy because you're doing nothing more than shooting yourself in the foot with a machine gun. Hell, if they just came clean with what truely happened with this whole thing and owned up to their mistake (and if I here "artistic integrity" 1 more f#$%ing time I'm gonna lose my ****) even after all this time that's passed I'd more than likely forgive, but will they, Nope. Just remember, "Pride comes before the fall"

#2659
Vigilant111

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Just seen the EC, the only thing I liked were the LI goodbye scene and the memorial scene

The Catalyst is worse this time, its logic is like a sponge-full of holes

There is still many questions, but I guess I got closure, and to finally stop mourning

#2660
3DandBeyond

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babachewie wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Luis_Said wrote...

Hello guys, Hi bioware.
I personally want to say Thank you Bioware.
The New extra content is what i expected from such a talented team.
I am happy to say that i can let pass a minor error like the first end :)
T-H-A-N-K-S.

BiOwArE


---  I want to ask: why thank BioWare?  They don't deserve any thanks.  We pay for their products.  They're not our friends, our families, or our compatriots.  They're a corporation, and nothing else, and when they get our money we should get a product worth that money.  When the EC fixes legitimate problems, we shouldn't thank them, we should say "It's about goddamn time.  Don't let this bull**** happen again."

Wow you must be a sad and lonely person with no life. You are literally on here everyday spiting bullcrap and hate on people who just are satisfied. A lot of people are happy now. No one gives a crap about you or what you think. 


He has never personally attacked anyone and merely stated his opinion, unlike what you have just done.  What you have posted is a personal attack.

A lot of people apparently merely wanted stuff that looked cool and not anything that really required thought.  They wanted to be told they were playing something intellectual and thoughty and that was artistic but decided to turn off their brains and not really challenge what was presented.

The whole premise of the ending remains unchanged, but now it looks way cool so it must be better.
However, the insistence that people are doomed to always be at odds with other people, no matter their origination, is preposterous and insulting.  And someone wrote this and is telling YOU that it is true.  So, if you ever argue with anyone, do not try to ever solve the problem-it is futile.  That is what we are told in this GAME.  It doesn't matter that the player has been able to achieve the exact opposite.  So what-it's way cooler to have these super special endings with a Shepard reaper or green-eyed people than actually following the story in the game.

2 of the 3 choices basically say people cannot handle problems and are children that need to either have overseers to solve everything or that must be changed internally to be better people.  The second one also is forced on unknowing people that did not consent to such a thing.  This is a videogame and creating an option that amounts to the molestation or violation of trillions of people is abhorrent.  But, wow those green eyes are way cool.

Control leaves alive reapers with people goo in them-hey lady, I saw your cousin Sally the other day, she was leaking out of reaper number 2.  These overseeing reapers become the galaxy cops and fix it men, because people cannot ever do anything on their own.  It has ominous undertones that say the threat may not have been avoided, and yet it's super smart and way cool.

Synthesis is as I've stated abhorrent and leaves open the door for immortality and a population explosion that will create conflict in the future-all to avoid conflict.  Not only abhorrent but ridiculously stupid.

Then there's destroy-the goal all along and what Shepard was actually ordered to do.  But the writers seem to want us all to know that it's the most selfish of all choices.  So, Shepard must kill the best examples of what's wrong with the star kid's logic.  Shepard kills EDI and the Geth that proved people could stop the conflict and could get along.  This is so totally F'ed up as to border on the ridiculous.  Destroy however is the only ending that allows for people to stand on their own and learn things for themselves, ridding their lives of the reapers once and for all and facing the future un-tethered.  It's a slap in the face to get that at the cost of genocide and then further insult is done to Shepard by treating the Shepard torso like so much garbage.  That's the player laying in the pile of rubble-that's what they think of fans.  How and why that torso got there and what then happens never got closure-we didn't deserve it, though that is the one ending that needed it most.

All of the choices are based upon the same flawed design-their existence and function are explained by the one being that has every reason to lie about them.  And one of the choices is the one he wants--but hey it's way cool.  So it must be smart-like cause way cool things are way smart too and everyone picking them must be way smart.  Bioware told you that.

Refuse is a middle finger to fans.  Don't think any of the choices are way cool, choose not to choose those intellectual super smart awesome artistic endings and just DIE.  Game over.  You lose.  No matter what.  Now don't you feel smart?

#2661
3DandBeyond

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Sovereign Skyguardian wrote...

Bioware is done for me. I won't ever buy a game of bioware again. The endings are still bullsh*t and make no sense at all.
Refusal is the biggest joke of Gamehistory and kinda tells you not to lean against the makers (Bioware) because they have the power.
Sorry. Thats not how you treat fans.


For me I see the ending as the Emperor's New Clothes.  All along they've defined it as art and implied it has some intellectual integrity.  Everyone has been told basically that they can't appreciate art and are stupid if they find anything wrong with the endings.  They have been defying us to show what they see as our ignorance.  And others willingly play along with this crap.  No one wants to appear stupid, right?  So the ending must be saying something smart.  Totally wrong.  It doesn't even try hard to be smart at all.  It's an assault on intelligence.  In denying these things about the ending, you fully see the emperor is naked and unabashedly so now.

The things I hear about the endings are that people think Control is so cool-get to be a god, the speech is awesome, cool, amazing.  No one can say that it means anything good.

Synthesis is the same way.  Wow, imagine that being a cyborg.  Awesome.  Great speech by Tricia Helfer.  Cool.  But it means something pretty horrible and stupid.

Destroy-wow we got that awesome LI didn't place the name on the wall scene for closure.  And yeah, it's finally a happy ending.  No it isn't.  It's a torso laying in garbage.  That's not how you treat a hero in a game.

Refuse-back at you, Bioware.  If you hate fans so much, then you have no business being in business.  Customers don't always like what you think is super cool that you borrowed from someone else.  Get used to it or get out of it.

What I never ever hear out of the mouths of those that think the endings are better is that they think they are really smart and create better worlds where people can finally choose their own destinies and where people finally fully defeated the foe in some sensible way.  No one can ever debate that people are better off not relying on themselves for the future.  The writers seemed to think players should see that people will always need some external overseer or artificial internal change in order to find ways to get along.  I am more positive about people than this and I think their view has no place in a video game.

It's almost like the endings are the non-big super explosions kind of endings that people that wanted only super big explosions are happy with.  Cool scenes, cool words, cool stuff, but demented none the less.  The emperor is screaming about how naked he is.

#2662
Ausnuk

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Well here we are going on about the ending again. We are feeling disappointed because we all fell in love with this great series only to be tossed aside at the final moment. Closure it what we truly sought but what we were given amounted to no more than a few quick explanations of the original endings loop holes.

It is true BW can not possibly please everyone but should that be the point. I always believed in the indoctrination theory, it fit so well in the original ending,especially in the destroy option with the Shepard lives ending. What let it down as they have done again is not giving us that closure. The new ending gave us everything which makes no sense. Choose the 4th option and the kid talks like a reaper WTF. Choose the destroy (the only real option if there is such a thing) and you get that Shepard lives maybe but how do you know seeing that they are about to put your name on the dead wall. What i loved about the stargazer scene is the idea that all the games were just a story being told by some old fart to his grandson but just couldn't remember those last all important details of how the galaxy was shaped.

I read somewhere that the ending as it stands will never live up to endings we have created ourselves from the first play through pre DLC. I truly believe this is one of those moments where we can all say "I could of done a better job than that".

As for me I am deleting my EC because although the first time it was bitter sweet now I have only the taste of well you can imagine what I was going to say can't you.

#2663
sdinc009

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3DandBeyond wrote...

Sovereign Skyguardian wrote...

Bioware is done for me. I won't ever buy a game of bioware again. The endings are still bullsh*t and make no sense at all.
Refusal is the biggest joke of Gamehistory and kinda tells you not to lean against the makers (Bioware) because they have the power.
Sorry. Thats not how you treat fans.


For me I see the ending as the Emperor's New Clothes.  All along they've defined it as art and implied it has some intellectual integrity.  Everyone has been told basically that they can't appreciate art and are stupid if they find anything wrong with the endings.  They have been defying us to show what they see as our ignorance.  And others willingly play along with this crap.  No one wants to appear stupid, right?  So the ending must be saying something smart.  Totally wrong.  It doesn't even try hard to be smart at all.  It's an assault on intelligence.  In denying these things about the ending, you fully see the emperor is naked and unabashedly so now.

The things I hear about the endings are that people think Control is so cool-get to be a god, the speech is awesome, cool, amazing.  No one can say that it means anything good.

Synthesis is the same way.  Wow, imagine that being a cyborg.  Awesome.  Great speech by Tricia Helfer.  Cool.  But it means something pretty horrible and stupid.

Destroy-wow we got that awesome LI didn't place the name on the wall scene for closure.  And yeah, it's finally a happy ending.  No it isn't.  It's a torso laying in garbage.  That's not how you treat a hero in a game.

Refuse-back at you, Bioware.  If you hate fans so much, then you have no business being in business.  Customers don't always like what you think is super cool that you borrowed from someone else.  Get used to it or get out of it.

What I never ever hear out of the mouths of those that think the endings are better is that they think they are really smart and create better worlds where people can finally choose their own destinies and where people finally fully defeated the foe in some sensible way.  No one can ever debate that people are better off not relying on themselves for the future.  The writers seemed to think players should see that people will always need some external overseer or artificial internal change in order to find ways to get along.  I am more positive about people than this and I think their view has no place in a video game.

It's almost like the endings are the non-big super explosions kind of endings that people that wanted only super big explosions are happy with.  Cool scenes, cool words, cool stuff, but demented none the less.  The emperor is screaming about how naked he is.


Well thought out analogy

#2664
DeadlyDodo

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I know this is a wall of text but it is well worth reading

AldarionnEB wrote...

This thread is so monolithic in scope that I cannot possibly read all of the posts in any reasonable amount of time. I would go insane. That said, this stands out.

Spartas Husky wrote...

This... so much this


By "Made Nightwing"

So, my lit professor and I are nerds. I throw in 'but the prize' references on my essays about Odysseus and Achilles, he throws in Firefly references in his lectures, we get on great. Now, I've previously mentioned that he disliked the endings EDIT: He dropped in on the forum to correct my paraphrasing of our conversation, so I'm updating the OP to have his infinitely superior original words replace my own feeble attempts:

Drayfish, p.13:

I've never posted on this forum before, so I hope I don't embarrass myself or this discussion entirely – and I apologise for the wall of text that is to follow, but I'm an academic, and tedious tracts of self-important linguistic gymnastics is what we do.

My name is Dr. Dray, and I should start by saying: oh, dear, I've been cited for my nerd indignation. I'm surprised Made Nightwing didn't mention that my little fists were shaking with rage. But they were. They did. With feeble, pointless nerd rage.

I must point out though, that as flattered as I am to be referenced, were I still marking Made Nightwing's work I would have to circle this passage and remind him that these words are not in fact directly attributable to me: his phrasing is a paraphrase of our conversation rather than a quotation. ...However, he has an attentive mind, and I must admit that he has captured the majority of my issues with the ending, my penchant for hyperbole, and the general dislocation of the thematic threads that I felt violated the larger narrative arc of the trilogy. And I'm sad to say I did use the words 'thematically revolting' – although I've watched both the Matrix sequels and Godfather 3, so I've probably said that phrase quite a lot.

If you'll permit me then, I did just want to write quickly in my own words to clarify some of my issues with these endings, and why I thought that they erode the themes heretofore at the core of their series. Of course, all of these arguments have no doubt been stated numerous times by voices far more worthy than mine over the past few weeks, but as someone intrigued by the production and reception of literature in all its forms this has been a fascinating – if disheartening – time to be an enormous fan of this fiction. I'd also like to particularly commend Strange Aeons for the fantastic post. And that analogy: 'It’s like ending Pinocchio with Geppetto stuffing him into a wood chipper'. What an exquisite image!

So, putting aside all of the hanging plot threads that rankled me (where was the Normandy going? why did my squad mates live? Anderson is where now? wait, the catalyst was Haley Joel Osment? etc), I would like to explain why, when I was offered those three repellent choices, I turned and tried to unload my now infinite pistol into the whispy-space-ghost's face. It was not because I was unhappy that my Shepard would not get to drink Garrus under the table one last time, or get to help Tali build a back-porch on her new homestead, nor that I was pretty sure no one was going to remember to feed my space fish – it was because those three ideological options were so structurally indefensible that they broke the suspension of disbelief that Bioware had (up until that point) so spectacularly crafted for over a hundred hours of narrative. Suddenly Shepard was not simply being asked to sacrifice a race or a friend or him/herself for the greater good (all of which was no doubt expected by any player paying attention to the tone of the series), Shepard was being compelled, without even the chance to offer a counterpoint, to perform one of three actions that to my reading each fundamentally undermined the narrative foundations upon which the series seemed to rest.

In the Control ending, Shepard is invited to pursue the previously impossible path of attempting to dominate the reapers and bend them to his will. Momentarily putting aside the vulgarity of dominating a species to achieve one's own ends (and I will get to complaining about that premise soon enough), this has proved to be the failed modus operandi of every antagonist in this fiction up until this point – including the Illusive Man and Saren – all of whom have been chewed up and destroyed by their blind ambition, incapable of controlling forces beyond their comprehension. Nothing in the vague prognostication of the exposition-ghost offers any tangible justification for why Shepard's plunge into Reaper-control should play out any differently. In fact, as many people have already pointed out, Shepard has literally not five minutes before this moment watched the Illusive Man die as a consequence of this arrogant misconception.

The Destroy ending, however, seems even more perverse. One of the constants of the Mass Effect universe (and indeed much quality science fiction) has been an exploration of the notion that life is not simplistically bound to biology, that existence expands beyond the narrow parameters of blood and bone. That is why synthetic characters like Legion and EDI are so compelling in this context, why their quests to understand self-awareness – not simply to ape human behaviours – is so dramatic and compelling. Indeed, we even get glimpses of the Reapers having more sprawling and unknowable motivations that we puny mortals can comprehend...

To then end the tale by forcing the player to obliterate several now-proven-legitimate forms of life in order to 'save' the traditional definition of fleshy existence is not only genocidal, it actually devolves Shephard's ideological growth, undermining his ascent toward a more enlightened conception of existence, something that the fiction has been steadily advancing no matter how Renegadishably you wanted to play. This is particularly evident when the preceding actions of all three games entirely disprove the premise that synthetic will inevitably destroy organic: the Geth were the persecuted victims, trying their best to save the Quarians from themselves; EDI, given autonomy, immediately sought to aid her crew, even taking physical form in order to experience life from their perspective and finally learning that she too feared the implications of death.

And finally Synthesis, the ending that I suspect (unless we are to believe the Indoctrination Theory) is the 'good' option, proves to be the most distasteful of all. Shepard, up until this point has been an instrument though which change is achieved in this universe, and dependent upon your individual Renegade or Paragon choices, this may have resulted in siding with one species or another, letting this person live or that person die, even condemning races to extinction through your actions. But these decisions were always the result of a mediation of disparate opinions, and a consequence of the natural escalation of these disputes – Shepard was merely the fork in the path that decided which way the lava would run. His/her actions had an impact, but was responding to events in the universe that were already in motion before he/she arrived.

To belabour the point: Shepard is an agent for arbitration, the tipping point of dialogues that have, at times, root causes that reach back across generations. Up until this moment in the game the narrative, and Shepard's role within it, has been about the negotiation of diversity, testing the validity of opposing viewpoints and selecting a path through which to evolve on to another layer of questioning. Suddenly with the Synthesis ending, Shepard's capacity to make decisions elevates from offering a moral tipping point to arbitrarily wiping such disparity from the world. Shepard imposes his/her will upon every species, every form of life within the galaxy, making them all a dreary homogenous oneness. At such a point, wiping negotiation and multiplicity from the universe, Shepard moves from being an influential voice amongst a biodiversity of thought to sacrificing him/herself in an omnipotent imposition of will.

(And lest we forget that the entire character arc of Javik (the 'bonus' paid-DLC character that gives unique context to the entire cycle of destruction upon which this fiction is based) is utilised to reveal that a lack of diversity, the failure to continue adapting to new circumstances, was the primary reason that his race was decimated. ...So I guess we have that to look forward to.)

And this was the analogy I made to Made Nightwing in our discussion (and which I have bored people with elsewhere): this bewildering finale felt as if you had been listening to a soaring orchestral movement that ended in a cacophonous blast, the musicians tossing down their instruments and walking away. I find it hard to conceive how the creators of such a magnificent franchise could have made such a mess of their own universe. The plot holes, thematic inconsistencies and a deus ex machina that was unforgivable in ancient Greek theatre, let alone in any modern narrative, all combine to erode the foundations upon which the rest of the experience resides. (It's a disturbing sign when apologists for such an ending have to literally hope that what they witnessed was just a bad dream in the central character's head.)

I'm sure in my diatribe with Made Nightwing I would have cited Charles Dickens being alert to, and adapting his writing in response to the floods of letters he received from his fans in the serialised delivery of stories such as The Old Curiosity Shop. And I know I mentioned F.Scott Fitzgerald extensively redrafting Tender is the Night for a second publishing after receiving negative critical feedback. Indeed, whatever you think of the final result, Ridley Scott was able to reassert a definitive vision of Blade Runner in spite of its original theatrical release. Despite what critics might burble about artistic vision there is innumerable precedent for such reshaping, even beyond fundamental industry practices such as play-testings and film test-screenings. If a work of art has failed in its communicative purpose (and unless angering and bewildering its most invested fans was the goal, then Mass Effect 3 has done so), then it cannot be considered a success, and is not worthy of regard.

And for those who would respond that I, and fans like myself, are simply upset because the endings do not offer some irrefutable 'clarity' that would mar the poetic mysteries of the ending, I would point out that I am in no way against obscure or bewildering endings: if they are earned. In contrast to a majority of viewers, I happen to love the ending of The Sopranos for precisely this reason – because, despite the momentary jolt of surprise it engendered, that audacious blank screen was wholly thematically supportable. The driving premise of that program was a man seeking therapy (a mobster, yes, but a psychologically damaged man) – indeed, the very first beat in that narrative was Tony Soprano walking into a psychiatrist's office. The principle thematic tie of the entire series was therefore revealed to be a mediation upon the underlying psychological stimuli that produces identity: whether the capacity to interpret and understand one's impulses can impact upon the experience of one's life; whether one can attain agency over one's life.

That ending might have been agonising, but it was entirely fitting that the series ended with a loaded ambiguity, inviting a myriad of interpretations in which we the audience were now placed into the role of the psychiatrist, suddenly compelled to reason out the ending of those final thirty seconds with the cumulative experience of the preceding six years of imagery. Did Tony die? Did he have a second plate of onion rings and enjoy his family's company? Did Meadow ever park that car? In its final act The Sopranos gives over the interpretive, descriptive function of its narrative to its audience, intimately binding the viewer to Tony Soprano's own (perhaps failed) attempts to comprehend himself and attain authorship over his life. ...But the only reason that they could even try this is because every minute of every episode to this point has been propagated upon the notion that Tony Soprano was a man with a subconscious that could be explored, and that motivated his actions whether as a loving father or brutal criminal.

The obscurities in the ending of Mass Effect 3 have not been similarly earned by its prior narrative. This narrative has not until this point been about dominance, extermination, and the imposition of uniformity – indeed, Shepard has spent over a hundred hours of narrative fighting against precisely these three themes. And if one of these three (and only these three) options must be selected in order to sustain life in the universe, then that life has been so devalued by that act as to make the sacrifice meaningless.

And that is why I shall continue to go on shooting Haley-Joel-Osment-ghost in the face.

...Sorry again for the length of this post.


This post has been quoted multiple times, and I feel it needs to be quoted repeatedly until BioWare acknowledges it and responds to it. It perfectly narrates my feelings on the ending with far more eloquence and attention to detail than I am capable of. It should have a sticky at the top of this forum by itself.

Well said sir.


As the guy above me said, this post needs to keep being quoted, for those with the patience to read it, it sums up beautifully how a lot of us feel and why we feel it.

Modifié par DeadlyDodo, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:35 .


#2665
3DandBeyond

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DeadlyDodo wrote...

I know this is a wall of text but it is well worth reading


As the guy above me said, this post needs to keep being quoted, for those with the patience to read it, it sums up beautifully how a lot of us feel and why we feel it.


The post is one of the most thorough and still stands since as even Casey Hudson stated they did not fundamentally change the endings.  Anyone that says they are better needs to fully understand the implications of that.  They have tried to make you think they have changed them by changing the pretty colors into a pretty slide show with talking.  We have been beaten down by an industry that believes we will accept anything that is given as that is their right and when they say "jump", we will only ask them, "how much money do I pay you for the privilege of jumping?"

Incidentally, drayfish recently added a goodbye post.  He felt the EC is pretty much what I feel it is, an explanation for the inexplicable, excuse for unoriginal disconnected content, a dressing up of the original content, and not a realy decided fix.  He said goodbye to Shepard, indicating a dissatisfaction at not being allowed a true and proper sendoff.  I feel in many ways this is the worst thing Bioware did in all this.  They cared and we cared about Shepard.  The difference is we never stopped caring, but they apparently hate Shepard.  You treat someone you love with a certain honor and the ending definitely does not do that.

I know what it's like to create the hero of a story and I know the bond that exists between hero and reader-it is not to be abused.  You can shift it a bit, by revealing details along the way that were hidden within the hero.  But, ME3 goes too far and totally re-writes what Shepard is at the core.  Nothing they did fixed this.  And refuse was no serious attempt to do so.  Shepard must either make one of 2 stupid soul-crushing decisions and radically alter the galaxy by either forcing reapers upon people or forcing changes within their bodies.  OR, Shepard must destroy 2 of the most honorable things that can be done within the story.  In doing this, part of Shepard will forever remain lost among the rubble.  That heart that lifted many will be trashed at what was done.  You do not do this to the hero or the reader of a story without closure.  You need to see that in making such a decision and living that the hero will learn to go on and make the best of it.

The other thing that was often said is that Bioware knew players would be sad to say goodbye to Shepard, but they obviously chose to ignore this.  We don't really get that chance.  If they knew that, they should have allowed for it. 

#2666
3DandBeyond

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Lucrece wrote...
EDI and the Geth's death is different from that of Mordin or Thane. I would not have minded if they had died in the line of duty. But they didn't die in the line of duty or from natural causes -- I murdered EDI and the Geth because they were made narrative hostages to artificially balance ending choices.

I get the feeling developers feared people would easily choose the one ending where Shepard lived if the other 3 (new Refusal) had him dying. So, they tacked on a cost of your crew and an entire race to make it seem "difficult". The only way a choice was made difficult is by choosing the less aggravating ending, because the end result of these available endings is that none are particularly uplifting to me. I have had enough sorrow in my life -- "bittersweet" doesn't speak to me.


Exactly.  Games are meant for fun and entertainment.  I didn't expect bunnies and rainbows, but one clearly victorious, happier ending.  I do believe as you that the writers worked to make the canon ending be NOT the canon ending.

People would naturally choose destroy-that was the goal and Shepard could live.  So, make them hate it.  And to add some more vinegar to it, leave the torso in rubble.  Since refuse is obvious, it makes it clear what destroy was-a bit of the same finger.

#2667
BlueStorm83

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pirate1802 wrote...

I'm happy with the EC, got my closure and it covered up most of the plot holes. The endings are now unique and shows the consequences of my actions. So overall satisfied. Though I'm not sure I should thank Bioware or not. This material should have been in the game when it came months ago. The only reason not to be, is EA rushed them, and they released a half-assed product and now making up for it. Hopefully they'll show some spine in the future.


Yes, THIS.  This is a rational reaction to the Extended Cut when you are happy with what it gave you.

#2668
BlueStorm83

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AresKeith wrote...

GloryToChaos wrote...

So clearly not everything was fixed and there are still some glaring plot issues but let's face it, the endings, especially the new synthesis one give you that warm snuggly feeling inside that we've all wanted for so long.


your joking right?


Synthesis CAN give you warm fuzzies... if you have no problem with violating the individuality, sanctity, and nature of every living thing in the universe.  I would have much preferred an ending where we kill Starboy and free the Reapers to their own personalities, and then we're left with an uncertain future where people just have to kind of muddle through, on their own, and decide for themselves if these now free and individual Reapers are able to be trusted, and if they are, which ones are trustworthy and which are too far gone and monstrous.

Modifié par BlueStorm83, 06 juillet 2012 - 05:20 .


#2669
AresKeith

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I'm grateful to Bioware for doing, but it doesn't solve the big problems at all, it just gives closure and tries to make the scenes after the choices look pretty and nice

admitting what you did was wrong and trying to actually fix is the right thing to do

#2670
BlueStorm83

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Knight3000 wrote...

*snipped*

when you ask the star brat about who designed the crucible, the kid answers that i wouldn't know them and there isn't enough time to tell me yet he has time to rave on about other ****.


"Yeah, I totally did it with my girlfriend, that makes me cool!"  "Oh?  Who is she?"  "Uhhhh... you wouldn't know her, she goes to another school.  In Canada."

That line didn't work for scores of Highschool Nerds, it's not working here, Star****.

#2671
AresKeith

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BlueStorm83 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

GloryToChaos wrote...

So clearly not everything was fixed and there are still some glaring plot issues but let's face it, the endings, especially the new synthesis one give you that warm snuggly feeling inside that we've all wanted for so long.


your joking right?


Synthesis CAN give you warm fuzzies... if you have no problem with violating the individuality, sanctity, and nature of every living thing in the universe.  I would have much preferred an ending where we kill Starboy and free the Reapers to their own personalities, and then we're left with an uncertain future where people just have to kind of muddle through, on their own, and decide for themselves if these now free and individual Reapers are able to be trusted, and if they are, which ones are trustworthy and which are too far gone and monstrous.


that would have been a better choice option

I can't like Synthesis cuz I see for what it really is

#2672
BlueStorm83

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AresKeith wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

GloryToChaos wrote...

So clearly not everything was fixed and there are still some glaring plot issues but let's face it, the endings, especially the new synthesis one give you that warm snuggly feeling inside that we've all wanted for so long.


your joking right?


Synthesis CAN give you warm fuzzies... if you have no problem with violating the individuality, sanctity, and nature of every living thing in the universe.  I would have much preferred an ending where we kill Starboy and free the Reapers to their own personalities, and then we're left with an uncertain future where people just have to kind of muddle through, on their own, and decide for themselves if these now free and individual Reapers are able to be trusted, and if they are, which ones are trustworthy and which are too far gone and monstrous.


that would have been a better choice option

I can't like Synthesis cuz I see for what it really is


If Synthesis was handed out only to willing people, on an individual basis, I'd be okay with it.  I'd like a Bionic Commando style arm and legs for swingin' and runnin' and stompin.  But I know PLENTY of people who'd rather remain 100% meat.  And that's their right.

What's absolutely WORST About Synthesis, even worse than forcing it on everyone, is that after years of fighting the Reapers, SHEPARD has to just shrug and go, "Oh, wow, I was wrong all along, you guys are the COOLEST, and now I'm gonna be JUST LIKE YOU!"

#2673
Mr Cloud

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Heh, I just found out that EC will be free for two years. So, if you uninstall the game, and three years later will decide to play whole trilogy again, you'll have to pay for it
Source: ME Wiki

Modifié par Mr Cloud, 06 juillet 2012 - 05:34 .


#2674
bri333865

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....is it bad that i thought the EC ending was actully better...?

#2675
3DandBeyond

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Vigilant111 wrote...

Just seen the EC, the only thing I liked were the LI goodbye scene and the memorial scene

The Catalyst is worse this time, its logic is like a sponge-full of holes

There is still many questions, but I guess I got closure, and to finally stop mourning


Yep, thought it was way worse.  At least the Normandy left that planet because near as I can figure out it was the same one where the Hugo Gernsback crashed (Jacob's father).  Planet  2175 Aeia, where the food was basically toxic, causes hallucinations at best.  Glad they fixed that, wow!

The LI goodbye scene near the conduit was good, but rather silly as far as where it was and all.  The idea the Normandy would drop down for that right in front of Harbinger and only pick up 2 people when there were lots of seriously injured people around, well that made sense.  It was a scene that was put in to fix what they had apparently not even thought didn't make sense.

The memorial scene is good, except for a Shepard lives ending it makes little sense.  If they didn't know what happened to Shepard, how do they know what happened to Anderson?  And why have Shepard's name ready.  I think it would have been better to replace it with everyone surrounding the rubble pile or a med lab bed.  Just a quick look at Anderson't name to say goodbye and then the scene of them by Shepard.  As well, I think that Shepard should have done the talking after Hackett talks about rebuilding - Hackett starts talking and when we get to a scene of Shepard alive, the voice is Shepard's talking about unity and working together-what "we" learned.  IMO, that would have been beautiful and would have tied it up.  All that Shepard worked for come full circle.