4048 réponses à ce sujet

[JustKnowz]

@3DAndBeyond... as I said... I wouldve preferred the Harbinger showdown, the homecoming and the blue Shepards with Liara... as for the story... evolution is not an end... you're right, I'll give u that.. so what makes you believe that synthesis is the end?

It's a deep, deep subject... maybe I'm shallow, but for the story BW wanted to give us-- I'm cool with synthesis... what would have the real Shepherd wanted? That's open to debate-- as this blog is nearly approaching the 115 pages.

Everything you said can be true... as everything I said can be as well.... I respect your opinion and thank you for responding to my post.

[RYZ3R]

SirGladiator wrote...

Obviously a genuinely happy ending is all we want. It doesnt really matter how many bad endings there are, so long as there is a way to have a really happy ending. Thats the bottom line, its just that simple.

The 3 main endings are already (varying degrees of) happy. Disgustingly even, when you consider how the tone of the entire game up until that point is nothing short of hopelessness and despair. The Extended Cut only compounds this, which is why there are a lot of people still unhappy with it. No one wants an ending where everyone dies and the Reapers win (Rejection), but just feeding us more happy isn't getting at the real problem. If anything, it's insulting. What's needed is an ending that logically follows the established narrative and keeps to the tone of the game. The ending given by Bioware does neither of these things.

[I. C. Wiener]

Good final? Rejection = victory in the fight versus Harbinger and LI reunion
The ending given by Bioware is suck

[dukewilleo1630]

I actually don't mind the ending with the catalyst. My problem is with the game before that. Cerberus became the main antagonist....the reapers were too passive. You should have been having conversations with harbinger in your dreams, indoctrination or not. I wanted to cap the illusive man in his base, it was not fulfilling to have to wait for that and be under his control. I wanted him under mine.

Also, Priority: Earth is just not that fun compared to say the ending of ME1 and ME2.

[AresKeith]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

lukandroll wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

One face to face where Shepard sees that his/her LI and teammates are alive and vice versa-was that so difficult?  Apparently, that was about as hard as making a really decent ending, one that the game so deserved

So making the ending as cheesy and cliche as you mention would make you happy?

Oh snap, I get it now, your are a hollywood screenwriter

Because nobody wants a videogame that you can win, right?

thats the trend EA/Bioware is trying to go with

[Crystal9487]

Teh walls of text, they are everywhere......

Personally I "loved" how Bioware modified the endings.. Not actually exploding the relays, giving the Normandy a reason to leave, the Normandy escapes the explosions. So much for that artistic integrity. I was happy that they added some form of an epilogue but no amount "clarification" could have fixed that mess for me. Plus that Shepard breathes scene is still unexplained, that sure as heck doesn't look like metallic rubble to me. I picked the destroy option since that has pretty much been the objective from the beginning.

No more dull fetch quests for me. I was dissapointed with Mass Effect 3 overall. The endings were just the last nail in the coffin for me. Perhaps I'm just a picky old cat lady. :3

Modifié par Crystal9487, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:23 .

[AresKeith]

I still think Control turns you into the new bad guy

[Kel Riever]

Dumb mistake.

That's the summary of the ending I can give.

Okay, I just finished the game, and I waited for the DLC to do it. There's one thing you better be sure of if your hero isn't going to make it at the end of your story, and that is that your story better be the most entirely best story ever. Otherwise, you deserve all the hate you get. And BioWare deserves EVERY ounce of hate they get.

There are some, few, stories out there where the protagonist does not make it at the end. Mostly amazing. And mostly written by people who knew what they were doing. It is pretty obvious that whoever wrote the ending didn't know what they were doing, and thought they did. It isn't like zero people like the ending. But it is certainly the case that enough people do that it should cause BioWare heavy concern for their next release, and I don't think those people who hate the ending are wrong for any reason they hate it, not in one single way.

I got what BioWare was going for, I do. But really, that doesn't mean it wasn't an entire failure and it doesn't mean they shouldn't have seen it coming.

Awful job on the ending. All that technically interesting writing, all that awesome story up until the ending, all the series undone by simply blowing the ending. It goes to show, people aren't going to remember anything but, and really, it is a shame, given the greatness of where ME1 left you.

Chalk it up to George Lucas syndrome, or the Matrix movies, where a magnificent enterprise destroyed itself, this goes in the same heap. I'll try to imagine my own ending, which needs to be fairly pedestrian to surpass the endings of Mass Effect. Or just imagine that the series should have ended with Mass Effect 1 as far as story goes. It is amazing how a company can have one great ending as an example to use for whatever else they do, and then never find the ability to match it again.

There is not one user posting a negative feedback about the ending that makes a useless post about it. The heap of negative feedback should grow to the point that BioWare never screws it up again. They totally f*cked it up in every way.

Well, we'll be not running out to get the next BioWare game until some news of improvement reaches my ears at least. If it ever happens.

Thanks for ME1, ME2, and ME3 up until the ending. All that stuff that was wiped out by a terrible ending. Good luck on sticking to your guns on this one, BioWare, instead of fixing it when you had the chance.

[Pinax]

JustKnowz wrote...
@3DAndBeyond... as I said... I wouldve preferred the Harbinger showdown, the homecoming and the blue Shepards with Liara... as for the story... evolution is not an end... you're right, I'll give u that.. so what makes you believe that synthesis is the end? 
It's a deep, deep subject... maybe I'm shallow, but for the story BW wanted to give us-- I'm cool with synthesis... what would have the real Shepherd wanted? That's open to debate-- as this blog is nearly approaching the 115 pages.
Everything you said can be true... as everything I said can be as well.... I respect your opinion and thank you for responding to my post.

Considering the evolution as one straight vector to perfection is an initially incorrect concept put in the game. Evolution is about adaption and increasing the chances of survival of a species in the environment by a natural process of favorizing individuals with some feature that increase their chances of survival. More chances of survival = bigger chance of passing this skill/trait on their descendants => this is how an exception can become a norm.As for me the biggest problem with synthesis is: How did an explosion of green light could merge living organics and synthetics? Mysteriously adding implants to organics, ok, but what about synthetics? Do they have an organic body and where does it come from? Or the only change from synthetics side is the glorious "understanding of organic life" which we know is soooo essential element of organic life?
Also where does the certainty that synthesis will bring peace comes from? Sharing similar bodies and a possibility of understanding each other does not bring peace, otherwise we won't have any wars on Earth.The real question is about access to resources and not seeking perfection and understanding.  From this point of view synthesis brings nothing.

[Ausnuk]

Bioware you really had a winner with the first ending. It must of been so clear to you. I truly wished all the gamers understood what you were attempting to do. You went to a new place in gaming history, so close you couldn't see any chance of failure. You broke new ground, you made me the gamer experience what indoctrination is. I the gamer am being broken it's so clear I sometimes can not believe it. You did it just obviously not good enough because the majority of the fan base could not see it. The reality is that for all those that failed to embrace/understand what you have done and the idea that you could never just tell them because that would defeat the essence of what you created you are left little choice but to listen and react to what the vast majority was telling you.

Your reaction to their cries of disappointment lead to this EC. You kept the dream alive in the EC for those that understood but also in turn dragged it out even longer for us to experience the true end to your vision. I knew when I understood the breathe scene. It was choosing the destroy ending, rejecting the power of indoctrination, showing the reapers that no matter what the cost we will end their long existence of genocide,that I will wake up battered, bruised but alive on the ground of London ready to finish this long fight for our very existence.

My true fear is you may be disillusioned by all this and cut your losses

PLEASE don't lose hope, there are actually many of us who believe in what you did. Push on, hope is what you created for Shepard/Gamer in this trilogy. That is why you should continue and bring out the end you were meant to.

For all who are disappointed look again at the ending pre-EC like I did and you will see from the time you stand up from Harbingers strike it is you the gamer being indoctrinated. It is an unpleasant feeling as it should be to lose ones mind, to have such limited control but that is what indoctrination is. The EC only gave a little closure to those unaswered questions you sought, not everything. The large gaps of the unexplained are still there and that unsettling/angry feeling you still have is the loss of your characters mind and indeed yours.  Embrace this and you will see that the fight for your own soul is only the last hurtle before the final fight for the universe.

Brilliant Bioware. Dont stop now you are so close.  

Modifié par Ausnuk, 09 juillet 2012 - 01:25 .

[3DandBeyond]

lukandroll wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

One face to face where Shepard sees that his/her LI and teammates are alive and vice versa-was that so difficult?  Apparently, that was about as hard as making a really decent ending, one that the game so deserved

So making the ending as cheesy and cliche as you mention would make you happy?

Oh snap, I get it now, your are a hollywood screenwriter

Wow, what a scintillating mature way to insult.  I guess in real life you think the idea of loving someone, getting married, and maybe having children is way too cheesy to aspire to and that dying bloodied and beaten for no good reason is artistic?  Ever seen someone die?  I have and more times than I'd care to discuss.  There is nothing artistic and awesome about it.  Death is ugly no matter what.  And that so many think that is the only way to end a videogame really worries me.  Many heroes are created in dying and yet, their families and friends wish it were different and wouldn't call it cheesy to see them walk through the door and smile.  But if they must die their families also want it to be FOR something and not in some gratuitous way for a grotesque cause.

I wanted one, count 'em one option for Shepard to live and for s/he and teammates and LI each to know the other survived.  That is closure.  Not just the sound of a coffin snapping shut.  And certainly not a burned torso left in rubbly like so much garbage.  Shepard was the hero of the story.  I find it somewhat annoying that Hackett is giving the speech I think Shepard should be giving since Shepard made it happen.

I never said it had to be bunnies and rainbows.  I said one scene.  And the galaxy isn't all bunnies and rainbows, anyway.  I found the Krogan baby slide to be somewhat cheesy.  Have you asked Bioware to remove it so that it only shows a lot of bloodied Krogans?  Shepard by the end has sacrificed more than anyone in the galaxy and for people that often weren't even trying to save themselves.  Shepard never had a life and the writers decided that the only way Shepard gets one is by being somewhat selfish and by killing EDI and the geth.  That's not a solidly happy cheesy ending.  One happy ending was not too much to ask for in a game.  I don't play games to be reminded of how awful things can be in real life.  I play them for fun and even to win.  There is no "win" in ME3.

I have suggested ways they could have made one scene, replacing the Memorial Wall scene that makes no substantial sense if the torso breathes.  They clearly knew Anderson was dead.  How?  Especially if they didn't know that Shepard was alive and assumed Shepard was dead.  So they could have gotten rid of it and shown them finding Shepard or standing by Shepard in the med lab.  That would have worked.  I never asked for more than one scene to finish the ending that has no closure.

Cheesy my assets.  When the hell did everyone turn so cynical and decide that depressing is artistic?  Go help at a homeless shelter and tell me that would make a good videogame.

[wright1978]

3DandBeyond wrote...

lukandroll wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

One face to face where Shepard sees that his/her LI and teammates are alive and vice versa-was that so difficult?  Apparently, that was about as hard as making a really decent ending, one that the game so deserved

So making the ending as cheesy and cliche as you mention would make you happy?

Oh snap, I get it now, your are a hollywood screenwriter

Wow, what a scintillating mature way to insult.  I guess in real life you think the idea of loving someone, getting married, and maybe having children is way too cheesy to aspire to and that dying bloodied and beaten for no good reason is artistic?  Ever seen someone die?  I have and more times than I'd care to discuss.  There is nothing artistic and awesome about it.  Death is ugly no matter what.  And that so many think that is the only way to end a videogame really worries me.  Many heroes are created in dying and yet, their families and friends wish it were different and wouldn't call it cheesy to see them walk through the door and smile.  But if they must die their families also want it to be FOR something and not in some gratuitous way for a grotesque cause.

I wanted one, count 'em one option for Shepard to live and for s/he and teammates and LI each to know the other survived.  That is closure.  Not just the sound of a coffin snapping shut.  And certainly not a burned torso left in rubbly like so much garbage.  Shepard was the hero of the story.  I find it somewhat annoying that Hackett is giving the speech I think Shepard should be giving since Shepard made it happen.

I never said it had to be bunnies and rainbows.  I said one scene.  And the galaxy isn't all bunnies and rainbows, anyway.  I found the Krogan baby slide to be somewhat cheesy.  Have you asked Bioware to remove it so that it only shows a lot of bloodied Krogans?  Shepard by the end has sacrificed more than anyone in the galaxy and for people that often weren't even trying to save themselves.  Shepard never had a life and the writers decided that the only way Shepard gets one is by being somewhat selfish and by killing EDI and the geth.  That's not a solidly happy cheesy ending.  One happy ending was not too much to ask for in a game.  I don't play games to be reminded of how awful things can be in real life.  I play them for fun and even to win.  There is no "win" in ME3.

I have suggested ways they could have made one scene, replacing the Memorial Wall scene that makes no substantial sense if the torso breathes.  They clearly knew Anderson was dead.  How?  Especially if they didn't know that Shepard was alive and assumed Shepard was dead.  So they could have gotten rid of it and shown them finding Shepard or standing by Shepard in the med lab.  That would have worked.  I never asked for more than one scene to finish the ending that has no closure.

Cheesy my assets.  When the hell did everyone turn so cynical and decide that depressing is artistic?  Go help at a homeless shelter and tell me that would make a good videogame.

Agree completely. My Shep lived(as evidenced by breathe scene) and his LI wasn't on the Normandy. Yet for some reason i get dialogue that acts like he died and a memorial scene with Liara on the Normandy delaying putting Shep's name on wall. Really don't understand why they were so scared of adding any real expansion to the single ending variant where shep can live.

[3DandBeyond]

JustKnowz wrote...

@3DAndBeyond... as I said... I wouldve preferred the Harbinger showdown, the homecoming and the blue Shepards with Liara... as for the story... evolution is not an end... you're right, I'll give u that.. so what makes you believe that synthesis is the end?

It's a deep, deep subject... maybe I'm shallow, but for the story BW wanted to give us-- I'm cool with synthesis... what would have the real Shepherd wanted? That's open to debate-- as this blog is nearly approaching the 115 pages.

Everything you said can be true... as everything I said can be as well.... I respect your opinion and thank you for responding to my post.

Because if you buy into it and believe the kid (you must believe him to make a choice at all), he says Synthesis is the final outcome of evolution (paraphrasing).  That's him.  He also says it's the "goal" of evolution, it is what evolution will lead to.  It's pefection-for organics through tech, for synthetics through understanding.  BS with a pile of crap on the side.  First of all, evolution is a natural process and it's impossible to believe that nature will take the inevitable leap from organics being naturally made to adding synthetic enhancements, something not natural.

It isn't what A Shepard would have wanted based upon everything Shepard said in three games.  It's what Saren and Sovereign said was the goal and Shepard debated that, argued against it.  Shepard spoke out against it so many times with EDI and Shepard had conversations with those who were against it, people whose opinions mattered. 

It also must by definition be forced upon people without their knowledge or consent.  Shepard would not do that. I certainly wouldn't.  No one ever said they'd like to become part tech.  In fact, Shepard had a big moment of expressing his/her own fears at just what s/he was with all the tech inside at the Cerberus base.  The fact that some people didn't want any tech whatsoever inside of them is very important.  This was never the goal.  It's an assault. 

I will put it this way if some super AI came along and said the goal and end to evolution and the key to perfection is that all people become part Justin Bieber because people want to be perfected by becoming Justin Bieber and so that people can get along with Justin Bieber and there is no more conflict, would that make sense?  And yet, this is what you are being told with tech.  The basis of all that he says about it is flawed, first off.  People do not seek perfection and certainly do not universally think tech is perfection.  Individuals seek to attain different things and perfection is an unrealistic goal that if attained leaves no reason for ever striving for anything again.

The so-called advancements also are unearned and something people are not ready for because they didn't evolve naturally.  This causes conflict.  The Krogan are prime evidence of that-when advanced beyond their readiness, they had no reason to try to achieve anything.  They became bored and in their boredom they sought conflict.

Synthesis is:
An assault on the bodies of people who may not want it.
A concept based on a flawed ideal.
Conflict-inducing-leads to immortality and over-population.
Unearned advancement that causes stagnation of culture and a lack of individuality eventually.

Furthermore, it says people cannot be trusted to learn from their own mistakes (growth of character) and to make their own way in life-they need guidance always.

[Sleeplessone]

Ok now with the EC DLC , i feel that ME3 + EC DLC is what ME3 should have been at release but a shame about the wait. i do not want to start another discussion about ME3 being a rushed and unfinished game but how I view a particular ending does bring some points up .... though I know everything is artistic licence.

Now for the endings I have preferred the synthesis but with the EC DLC , and the acquired knowledge of all the races that came before which are stored in the reapers Why is there not resurrection of Shepard?

Surely with all that knowledge and the possibility of moving to a new plane of existence We could bring back Shepard. My Ashley is in morning and i am sure she would bring him back.

I would expect a DNA scan of every living thing would be enough to compile the complete DNA of Shepard since he was effectively scattered to the galactic winds ... that or the child in the citadel could do it as a reward to your loved one.

Still though no clear explanation of the citadel child and the Child with Stargazer at the end though I can only stipulate that they are from a higher plane of existence, or the First Synthetics created by the first organics.

Yes I appreciate that there can be dark endings but some of us may like a fairytale ending. The synthesis after a resurrection process described above could easily see Shepard (retired) and Garrus on the beach sharing that drink with Ashley in a bikini ( romanced companion in my game)
While the rest of your companions could either starting a beach party or off on their own journeys (Adventures)

EDI and Joker if romanced could be buying a home and settling down while Javik could be taveling the galaxy with Liara.

Well that is my view as I feel enough of it is explained ....

I do make one point in comparison to the previous games that is I feel ME3 is far too Linear in the story progression choice as many from the end of ME2 would have gone after Cerberus and the Illusive man at the start of ME3. There is no clear even suggestion than doing after your return from the last mission in ME2 would have probably been another suicidal mission, instead you turn your self in to Earth and so the start of ME3. To me , ME3 is a Mod conversion for Battlefield 3 as the combat feels exactly the same especially on Menae when helping the turian's.

Modifié par Sleeplessone, 09 juillet 2012 - 01:23 .

[3DandBeyond]

RYZ3R wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

Obviously a genuinely happy ending is all we want. It doesnt really matter how many bad endings there are, so long as there is a way to have a really happy ending. Thats the bottom line, its just that simple.

The 3 main endings are already (varying degrees of) happy. Disgustingly even, when you consider how the tone of the entire game up until that point is nothing short of hopelessness and despair. The Extended Cut only compounds this, which is why there are a lot of people still unhappy with it. No one wants an ending where everyone dies and the Reapers win (Rejection), but just feeding us more happy isn't getting at the real problem. If anything, it's insulting. What's needed is an ending that logically follows the established narrative and keeps to the tone of the game. The ending given by Bioware does neither of these things.

Happy?  In what dystopic sense of the word.  They are demoralizing and that someone thought they made something really intellectual here is sad.

They are sad in that any choice is predicated on the kid being truthful and being "right" in his assessment that people cannot ever work out things for themselves.  Sure, I get that conflict can happen.  I don't generally see that as always being a bad thing.  Conflict can be the spark that ignites change, for better and sure, for worse.  But, it does not cede everything to the status quo and lead to stagnation of the heart, the spirit, character, and society at large.  It allows for the possibility of better things, even if that just means learning not to make the mistakes that led to "bad" conflict.

The kid sees chaos as bad.  Of course he does.  He lives in a "world" of on and off, 1s and 0s.  He is all about order.  Chaos can cause random code, something that could destroy him.  It also can lead to synthetic beings randomly changing and finding true "life".  However, in the realm of living beings, chaos is the natural state of things.  It can come in various forms, but we live in the reality that we don't know what the future will bring and that is a good or a bad thing based upon how the individual chooses to see it.  Chaos also drives evolution.  Evolution is not a straight line forward, it meanders.  Mutations cause a jump or a setback sometimes, but chaos drives diversity and allows for the greatest room for growth.

Think about what Liara said of humans in ME1-to Shepard.  Her statements described chaotic individuals, who enter a room and cause disorder.  But, in ME humans are also the most diverse of all advanced organics.  The most individualistic.  3 humans enter a room and there will be 6 different opinions.  Orderliness causes that individualism to fade.  Look at the Cheetah-dying out because they lack diversity.  Their genetic makeup has become too orderly.

So, that's the premise upon which the star kid is working-chaos and conflict are bad.  There must be control, direction, and orderliness.  Yeah, that's what I want.

2 of the 3 choices follow this "wisdom".  Control uses and external force to achieve that.  No one knows Shepard controls the reapers so fear would be rampant.  They also all see living reapers who may have their family's goo inside them.  Javik certainly would think that.  And no Turian seeing Palaven burn would be all smiles as they watched reapers fix the relays and police the galaxy.  The words that Shepard reaper commander uses are not good either-mine, an almost full Paragon says the woman she was knew she had to become something greater.  That does not sound good and certainly is not my Shepard, anymore.  She never thought anything like that.  The music is ominous and while the intelligence of Shepard still exists, the heart and soul of Shepard is no more and without that heart and emotion, I don't view this as any sort of happy ending at all.  It's a police state that uses fear, even if unintended by the Shepard that died for it, to control people by controlling the reapers.  People will not learn and grow because the reapers are there once again to provide all the tech.  And, Shepard dies-the best part of Shepard especially, dies.  This is not a happy choice.

Synthesis uses internal change to achieve a state of sameness with no conflict.  It is by its nature forcing a change on people to suit the desires of the star kid and not to solve the real problem that exists-the reapers and their master.  This is sad because so many people think it's way cool so it must be great.  It is very demoralizing as a player choice and for what it actually is saying about people.  People cannot learn and grow on their own and must be artificially augmented to have any value at all.  They were imperfect and the imperfect were not worth saving.  Once perfected they now have value and can make their own way, a way designed and implemented by their augmentations.  And Shepard dies.  This is not a happy choice.

Destroy completes the triumvirate of awful choices.  The person that picks this sees that this was the goal all along-the only thing everyone wanted to do and can even see that EDI had said she'd give her life for her teammates and that the geth understood this all might be one big suicide mission.  However, it says that in order to avoid conflict one must wipe out all synthetic life that might cause conflict, even if in so doing you are killing the best examples of how conflict can be worked out.  And Shepard lives with high enough EMS, but Shepard is treated like garbage.  Faceless and dumped in a pile of rubble that makes no sense, has no context.  This is certainly not a happy ending.

Refuse.  Not a serious choice.  Yeah, it allows Shepard to disagree with the kid.  Well, my Shepard already did disagree with the kid, but the kid has selective amnesia.  On Rannoch, my Shepard said to the dying reaper that Synthetics and Organics aren't always doomed to fight.  My Shepard united the geth and the Quarians so if the writers were serious about allowing an argument with the kid, they would have addressed that in the EC, and that was the most talked about reason for people saying the kid was full of ****ake.  But, apparently the kid can read Shepard's mind only when it suits his own purpose.  He pulled that image of the kid out of Shepard's brain, but little else.  So, now we can reject, refuse, procrastinate, and let someone else do the dirty work.  Not at all a happy ending.  Just as I couldn't care less about some future conflict that may or may not happen, I don't care if some future people live happily ever after.  My goal was to save the galaxy now and to find a way to get Shepard home.

This is a game with zero happy endings.  Since it's passed off as some intellectual passion play then people need to judge it on its intellectual merits and really think about what is said at the end.  Just thinking it's so cool now to have Shepard be a god as some people say, or for everyone now to be cyborgs with green eyes, is so counter to what the devs think it is as to be truly laughable.  There is actually a post where someone believes that if people didn't have green eyes and circuit boards under their skin then no one would object to synthesis.  This is what I'm talking about.  I don't care if they all look like chocolate cake.  I object to the meaning of these choices, the supposedly deep intellectualism the devs said they contained.  I object to the lack of an uplifting meaningful sad ending as much as the lack of an uplifting and meaningful happy one.

[Thore2k10]

3DandBeyond wrote...


This is a game with zero happy endings.  Since it's passed off as some intellectual passion play then people need to judge it on its intellectual merits and really think about what is said at the end.  Just thinking it's so cool now to have Shepard be a god as some people say, or for everyone now to be cyborgs with green eyes, is so counter to what the devs think it is as to be truly laughable.  There is actually a post where someone believes that if people didn't have green eyes and circuit boards under their skin then no one would object to synthesis.  This is what I'm talking about.  I don't care if they all look like chocolate cake.  I object to the meaning of these choices, the supposedly deep intellectualism the devs said they contained.  I object to the lack of an uplifting meaningful sad ending as much as the lack of an uplifting and meaningful happy one.

This!

There really is no happy ending! Also you dont have any feeling of Triumph, that you actually were able to accomplish anything or that you won the war against the reapers...

Casper lets you win at the end, you dont do anything for that...

[Kel Riever]

Metaphorically speaking, the ending of ME3 reeks of someone with a big, fat ego deciding he knew what was good for everyone and then took a nice pee over the fan base. Is it really a surprise he got it wrong?

What is the difference between a book and an rpg?

A fundamental question that the writer of the ending should have thought about before writing the ending. But we all know the ego was too big to ever even wonder.

[Sylmawen]

Ok, I've waited for EC to come out before writing what I think about the game, but everything relevant has already been said in these months and I think BioWare got the message for future games... hopefully.

Let's just say I found the will to complete my walkthrough again with the Extended Cut. I liked it... compared to what the game ending was before. But overall I still don't like it. Still a hell of an anti-climax. And the game as a whole is... well, not what I would expect from BioWare. But that's common knowledge.

Anyway, that's it, short comment but nothing more to say, really. Thank you for a great saga, I really loved it. But because of that, it still hurts.

For your next game (DA3?), please BioWare, take your time and don't rush it. You made enough money already, with *cough* DA2, SWToR and ME3 *cough*... now focus on quality like you used to do in the old days.

Pretty please?

Thank you again.

[V-rcingetorix]

Logically, Casper the Kidly Ghost was created by flawed organics. Therefore its conclusions are based on flawed (organic) programming, and are then flawed as well.

Control, I can see as full Renegade, due to the takeover of sentient machines (enslavement) to fulfill the plan of a villain. EC makes this choice less palatable to me, what with the lack of Geth/EDI explanation; does Shepard now control ALL synthetics?

Synthesis: I can see this one, although it is not my favorite. Advancing the tech of the galaxy a thousandfold is attractive, but somehow insidious. Again, EC makes the choice more attractive by showing all the advancements of time are now at the command of the current Cycle, but this still feels wrong. EDI and the Geth are alive, but are they really? Were they overridden by the Reaper nanotech, like the rest of the organics? It feels like a cage no one can see is holding everyone back from making choices. Shepard says: "You take away our freedom to choose, without freedom, we have no hope." Synthesis takes away that freedom of choice just as thoroughly as a Reaper beam gunning down a kid-carrying shuttle.

Destroy, as I see it, is the most logical choice. The entire trilogy is set up to finding a way to defeat/eliminate the Reapers; first with Sovereign, then with Harbinger and the Collectors. This choice even reflects ME2s' final choice with TIM; destroy the base or keep it for study. EC makes this choice the easiest to take, except for killing the Geth/EDI. However, both the Geth and EDI knew what they were volunteering for, the same as Shepards crew in ME1 and ME2. Shepards crew just expanded to include entire species, and one of them bought the farm.

Finally, logical assessment on Shepards' death.

It makes sense for the Control option to kill Shepard; the EC helps that. TIM loses part of himself to gain Reaper implants, Saren can die yet fight on because of the Sovereign implants and the Collectors have no soul...replaced by tech. Therefore it makes perfect sense to have Shephard physically die to be replaced by tech. The ultimate sacrifice.

In Synthesis the death of Shepard is illogical. In ME2 Captain Bailey comments that if "You had any gene mods these scanners could detect them." In ME3 the VI impersonation of Shepard can predict what the actual Shepard would do with "7% accuracy." Finally, Shepard is part machine himself, his brain is wired into the network that keeps him alive after the events of prologue ME2. Why, therefore, must he be disintegrated to fully download him/herself? DNA is not needed, personality can be copied, even thoughts can be read (if they can be controlled by Indoctrination, can not the process be reversed?). The only thing that can't be copied is the soul of Shepard, and as this was already proven by the Control ending, that is not transferable.

Destroy is most logical. The only illogical portion is the destruction of ALL Synthetic life. Why? Where did the Red Beam of Destruction get its targeting parameters? Can't EDI and the Geth set up radiation shields? Maybe not the Reapers, as it was designed to take down Reapers, but couldn't the other Synthetics be protected?

Casper the Kidly Ghost mentions the Crucible is crude and ALMOST intact. Hopefully, in future DLC's, the Crucible will be completely intact and affect ALL the endings. Maybe the Control option will make a synthetic body for Shepard (aka EDI taking the body of Dr. Eva). Maybe the Synthesis ending will keep Shepard alive, and maybe the Destroy ending would leave the Geth/EDI alive with Shepard.

As the big man said, future development would make us want to keep our save files forever. I wasn't sure about that, but the Extended Cut gives me hope.

[Pinax]

Kel Riever wrote...

Metaphorically speaking, the ending of ME3 reeks of someone with a big, fat ego deciding he knew what was good for everyone and then took a nice pee over the fan base. Is it really a surprise he got it wrong?

What is the difference between a book and an rpg?

A fundamental question that the writer of the ending should have thought about before writing the ending. But we all know the ego was too big to ever even wonder.

Unfortunately, these are my suspicions as well...

Also rpg includes a part of creating a character by the player - we wouldn't have all these objections if this would be Assassins Creed, but this is Mass Effect, we are playing by almost literally our Shepards, giving them different motivations and background. This is very well resumed in the Paragon dialogue during the mission for Garrus: you cannot choose a question you're being asked but you can always choose the answer you're going to give and this reflects who you are.

In Mass Effect endings the answers we were forced to give did not reflect who we are. And the so called "whiny" posts on BSN is a rebel of the "created" (Shepards) against the creators- it was inevitable while giving the endings we had.

Actually while listening by the EC pre-release interview with Casey and Mac I was really wondering if they ever played their own game or if they always seen in only as a diagram.

Modifié par Pinax, 09 juillet 2012 - 02:35 .

[Iakus]

3DandBeyond wrote...

RYZ3R wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

Obviously a genuinely happy ending is all we want. It doesnt really matter how many bad endings there are, so long as there is a way to have a really happy ending. Thats the bottom line, its just that simple.

The 3 main endings are already (varying degrees of) happy. Disgustingly even, when you consider how the tone of the entire game up until that point is nothing short of hopelessness and despair. The Extended Cut only compounds this, which is why there are a lot of people still unhappy with it. No one wants an ending where everyone dies and the Reapers win (Rejection), but just feeding us more happy isn't getting at the real problem. If anything, it's insulting. What's needed is an ending that logically follows the established narrative and keeps to the tone of the game. The ending given by Bioware does neither of these things.

Happy?  In what dystopic sense of the word.  They are demoralizing and that someone thought they made something really intellectual here is sad.

They are sad in that any choice is predicated on the kid being truthful and being "right" in his assessment that people cannot ever work out things for themselves.  Sure, I get that conflict can happen.  I don't generally see that as always being a bad thing.  Conflict can be the spark that ignites change, for better and sure, for worse.  But, it does not cede everything to the status quo and lead to stagnation of the heart, the spirit, character, and society at large.  It allows for the possibility of better things, even if that just means learning not to make the mistakes that led to "bad" conflict.

The kid sees chaos as bad.  Of course he does.  He lives in a "world" of on and off, 1s and 0s.  He is all about order.  Chaos can cause random code, something that could destroy him.  It also can lead to synthetic beings randomly changing and finding true "life".  However, in the realm of living beings, chaos is the natural state of things.  It can come in various forms, but we live in the reality that we don't know what the future will bring and that is a good or a bad thing based upon how the individual chooses to see it.  Chaos also drives evolution.  Evolution is not a straight line forward, it meanders.  Mutations cause a jump or a setback sometimes, but chaos drives diversity and allows for the greatest room for growth.

Think about what Liara said of humans in ME1-to Shepard.  Her statements described chaotic individuals, who enter a room and cause disorder.  But, in ME humans are also the most diverse of all advanced organics.  The most individualistic.  3 humans enter a room and there will be 6 different opinions.  Orderliness causes that individualism to fade.  Look at the Cheetah-dying out because they lack diversity.  Their genetic makeup has become too orderly.

So, that's the premise upon which the star kid is working-chaos and conflict are bad.  There must be control, direction, and orderliness.  Yeah, that's what I want.

2 of the 3 choices follow this "wisdom".  Control uses and external force to achieve that.  No one knows Shepard controls the reapers so fear would be rampant.  They also all see living reapers who may have their family's goo inside them.  Javik certainly would think that.  And no Turian seeing Palaven burn would be all smiles as they watched reapers fix the relays and police the galaxy.  The words that Shepard reaper commander uses are not good either-mine, an almost full Paragon says the woman she was knew she had to become something greater.  That does not sound good and certainly is not my Shepard, anymore.  She never thought anything like that.  The music is ominous and while the intelligence of Shepard still exists, the heart and soul of Shepard is no more and without that heart and emotion, I don't view this as any sort of happy ending at all.  It's a police state that uses fear, even if unintended by the Shepard that died for it, to control people by controlling the reapers.  People will not learn and grow because the reapers are there once again to provide all the tech.  And, Shepard dies-the best part of Shepard especially, dies.  This is not a happy choice.

Synthesis uses internal change to achieve a state of sameness with no conflict.  It is by its nature forcing a change on people to suit the desires of the star kid and not to solve the real problem that exists-the reapers and their master.  This is sad because so many people think it's way cool so it must be great.  It is very demoralizing as a player choice and for what it actually is saying about people.  People cannot learn and grow on their own and must be artificially augmented to have any value at all.  They were imperfect and the imperfect were not worth saving.  Once perfected they now have value and can make their own way, a way designed and implemented by their augmentations.  And Shepard dies.  This is not a happy choice.

Destroy completes the triumvirate of awful choices.  The person that picks this sees that this was the goal all along-the only thing everyone wanted to do and can even see that EDI had said she'd give her life for her teammates and that the geth understood this all might be one big suicide mission.  However, it says that in order to avoid conflict one must wipe out all synthetic life that might cause conflict, even if in so doing you are killing the best examples of how conflict can be worked out.  And Shepard lives with high enough EMS, but Shepard is treated like garbage.  Faceless and dumped in a pile of rubble that makes no sense, has no context.  This is certainly not a happy ending.

Refuse.  Not a serious choice.  Yeah, it allows Shepard to disagree with the kid.  Well, my Shepard already did disagree with the kid, but the kid has selective amnesia.  On Rannoch, my Shepard said to the dying reaper that Synthetics and Organics aren't always doomed to fight.  My Shepard united the geth and the Quarians so if the writers were serious about allowing an argument with the kid, they would have addressed that in the EC, and that was the most talked about reason for people saying the kid was full of ****ake.  But, apparently the kid can read Shepard's mind only when it suits his own purpose.  He pulled that image of the kid out of Shepard's brain, but little else.  So, now we can reject, refuse, procrastinate, and let someone else do the dirty work.  Not at all a happy ending.  Just as I couldn't care less about some future conflict that may or may not happen, I don't care if some future people live happily ever after.  My goal was to save the galaxy now and to find a way to get Shepard home.

This is a game with zero happy endings.  Since it's passed off as some intellectual passion play then people need to judge it on its intellectual merits and really think about what is said at the end.  Just thinking it's so cool now to have Shepard be a god as some people say, or for everyone now to be cyborgs with green eyes, is so counter to what the devs think it is as to be truly laughable.  There is actually a post where someone believes that if people didn't have green eyes and circuit boards under their skin then no one would object to synthesis.  This is what I'm talking about.  I don't care if they all look like chocolate cake.  I object to the meaning of these choices, the supposedly deep intellectualism the devs said they contained.  I object to the lack of an uplifting meaningful sad ending as much as the lack of an uplifting and meaningful happy one.

Someone at Bioware needs to print this out, make a dozen copies, and send it to the entire Mass Effect writing team

[3DandBeyond]

Kel Riever wrote...

Metaphorically speaking, the ending of ME3 reeks of someone with a big, fat ego deciding he knew what was good for everyone and then took a nice pee over the fan base. Is it really a surprise he got it wrong?

What is the difference between a book and an rpg?

A fundamental question that the writer of the ending should have thought about before writing the ending. But we all know the ego was too big to ever even wonder.

Exactly.  How can you know how to say something if you don't know what you want to say.  The ending of anything with a story gives that story its meaning.  It says what everything that happened was all about, what it was all for.  You have to know what it was for in order to help your readers get there.

When you write a book it's with the idea in mind of how it will turn out, so you know what hints to drop along the way.  You can't write any story without that ending in mind or you don't know what to hint at.  The hints start out small and then get more and more compelling as you go along.  And since the ME games never really dropped too many powerful specific enough hints, the conclusion should not have been some big reveal.  A reveal is that moment when people stop and say everything makes sense now.  Or "now I know what they were trying to say".  Even in hindsight I can find nothing of substance that suggests this is what they were trying to say.  For that reason they should have made the ending more of a fight to save the galaxy and less some supposed thought-provoking thing.

[Pinax]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

Metaphorically speaking, the ending of ME3 reeks of someone with a big, fat ego deciding he knew what was good for everyone and then took a nice pee over the fan base. Is it really a surprise he got it wrong?

What is the difference between a book and an rpg?

A fundamental question that the writer of the ending should have thought about before writing the ending. But we all know the ego was too big to ever even wonder.

Exactly.  How can you know how to say something if you don't know what you want to say.  The ending of anything with a story gives that story its meaning.  It says what everything that happened was all about, what it was all for.  You have to know what it was for in order to help your readers get there.

When you write a book it's with the idea in mind of how it will turn out, so you know what hints to drop along the way.  You can't write any story without that ending in mind or you don't know what to hint at.  The hints start out small and then get more and more compelling as you go along.  And since the ME games never really dropped too many powerful specific enough hints, the conclusion should not have been some big reveal.  A reveal is that moment when people stop and say everything makes sense now.  Or "now I know what they were trying to say".  Even in hindsight I can find nothing of substance that suggests this is what they were trying to say.  For that reason they should have made the ending more of a fight to save the galaxy and less some supposed thought-provoking thing.

To be honest, the ME3 endings (with the EC as well) seem like created in a mood:
- We have to finish Shepard's story.
- Ok, so let's just kill him.
- Nah, this is so cliche and the fans can go mad, let's make something else. But we only have few weeks/months/days to finish this, so... eum... oh God, let's find something quick!
- Ok, ok, let's start from the scratch, let's say... what could you define as core themes of Mass Effect story?
- Hmm, maybe: Galactic Alliance, Friends, Organics versus Synthetics?
- Oh! Ok, we had galactic alliances, we had some conversations with friends so should be enough, organics versus synthetics... hmm, yeah, this went only on Ranoch mission, right? This sounds like a cool idea to pull in into the ending. Let's go into this direction!

The only problem is a well written ending should bring some resolution to all core elements, not only one.

Modifié par Pinax, 09 juillet 2012 - 02:50 .

[InLoveWithTaliZorah]

Enjoyed the EC ending because it was an improvement over the previous ending that we had. But the entire premise of the ending and the new endings is still ridiculous. The Starchild's logic is still a leap of faith made by the machine (irony!) and flawed. I don't have much of a problem with the Refusal ending but having it begin if you decided to choose one of the three but then shot the Starchild was... bad. Not necessarily an action on the level of Fan Trolling... but that was bad.
Having the big plot reveal in the end to be a B Level Subplot that ignored all of the foreshadowing in the other 2 games was ridiculous and a major problem.
The Starchild still invalidates the point of the first Mass Effect game.
(What was the point of the Human Reaper in ME2?)
The PR response of Bioware to the reaction of the original ending was insulting.
Standing by to the original ending and ignoring the very sound arguments against it made on the forums and amazing youtube videos was a slap in the face.
Bioware did fix some of the major problems in the original ending but it is still rotten at it's core.
The evacuation scene was great! (especially with Tali.) The ending was still pretty bad. I can't say that it is terrible anymore, just... bad.
Bioware outright lied to us in their staff interviews and press releases. They lied. To us. Their fanbase. They outright lied.
Headcannon and Fanfiction are the answers now. I don't trust Bioware anymore.

[3DandBeyond]

We have now discovered the canon names for Shepard. Please do not deviate from these.

What we are left with are 5 Shepard versions-this is why no one ever knew Shepard's first name. You had to play the ending to know.

God Shepard (aka Shreaper)
Dead Shepard
Moron Shepard (must walk forward while shooting at exploding tubes)
Torso Shepard
Felon Shepard (assaults people by inserting tech in their bodies without permission)