4048 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Actually, Refusal is pretty much exactly what I asked for.  It lets me tell BioWare that I'd Rather FAIL than "succeed" in what THEY consider success.  I consider my actually CHOOSING Refusal, even knowing the consequence, to be a bigger middle finger to them than the one they gave us by making refusal what it is.

Well, yes to be honest there was discussion of a way to say know even if it meant failing the mission, but many more posts (IIRC, but I could be wrong) where people said that you'd fail with low EMS, but with high you might have a chance to win another way.

[BlueStorm83]

3DandBeyond wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Actually, Refusal is pretty much exactly what I asked for.  It lets me tell BioWare that I'd Rather FAIL than "succeed" in what THEY consider success.  I consider my actually CHOOSING Refusal, even knowing the consequence, to be a bigger middle finger to them than the one they gave us by making refusal what it is.

Well, yes to be honest there was discussion of a way to say know even if it meant failing the mission, but many more posts (IIRC, but I could be wrong) where people said that you'd fail with low EMS, but with high you might have a chance to win another way.

---  Oh, without question, that should be the REAL end of the game.  Where you refuse and THEN EMS matters.

But I will go on record as having said, almost word for word, "I'd rather have the option to tell Starboy to go **** himself, and then LOSE, than have to give in and acquiesce to EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN FIGHTING FOR OVER TWO HUNDRED  HOURS IN THREE GAMES."

It might not have been exactly that, but I do recall saying that complete abject defeat is better than giving in and BECOMING the reapers, be it in body, mind, or actions.

Modifié par BlueStorm83, 14 juillet 2012 - 01:11 .

[chevyguy87]

@BlueStorm83 and 3DandBeyond, I swear you two are my heroes on this forum.

I would like to expand upon a brilliant point made in a youtube video.

"Remember the game that completely abandoned its genre and lost it's focus in the final moments of the trilogy"?

It's true, wasn't our goal for 2.9 games stopping the Reapers, which up until the introduction of Glow Stick we were doing just that. Our new goal (introduced to us in the final 10 minutes of the trilogy) is deciding who gets the sh*t end of the stick, Organics or Synthetics.

Instead of just killing the Reapers which we worked at for almost 5 years and hundreds of hours of gameplay, we get to throw that idea out the window on the freeway and now get the exciting task of deciding who to screw over by listening to that pint sized little creten, personally I agree with the person who said that we should throw him into the beam. I'll do one better, field goal punt that little bastard in there.

[TGiNcRySiS]

Well just finished it. Still not happy. At least my shep lived and I know what happened to crew. Oh well I am done with this game now.

[BlueStorm83]

--- One tragic thing that gets lost in everything is that a Game is something that people do to get enjoyment. That's really the bottom line. That can be happy enjoyment, that can be sad enjoyment, that can be scared, checking behind you, turning the lights back on at every creak enjoyment.

I was just playing an INCREDIBLE space-based game about doing the impossible and having a ton of fun. It was Super Mario Galaxy 2. Silly, colorful enjoyment. On the shelf behind me, I have Condemned: Criminal Origins. Spooky, crap your pants, OHHOLYCRAP, THERE'SAGUYHIDINGINSIDETHATMANNEQUIN! enjoyment. In front of me is the Collector's Edition of BioShock 2. Poignant, delving into what it means to be a father, bittersweet, tragic enjoyment. There's many more kinds. Borderlands was wild, space frontier gunslinger enjoyment. Mass Effect has been talky, techy, adventurous, emotional, warring enjoyment. Civilization is involved, complex, random map enjoyment.

But they all share a key element: enjoyment. If you take that out of the equation, you fail. And that's what needs to be focused on. We as gamers come home from work, or finish our housework, or complete our gardening, or send the kids to play for a moment to get them out of our hair, and as a momentary escape from our real lives, we want to enjoy something. Gaming probably keeps a lot of us from snorting coke.

Mass Effect 3, even if I'm dead wrong, even if it is the most incredible artistic statement ever, even if I'm the biggest idiot ever and I'll NEVER understand why it's so incredible... just isn't bringing enjoyment to its entire audience. I daresay that it fails to bring full enjoyment to 99% of its audience. The majority of people I've seen fall into four camps.
1) They unrepentantly hate the way it turns out.
2) They didn't like the way it turns out, but shrug and get on with their lives.
3) They like the way it ends, but think it could have gone better.
4) They told me that they loved the way it ended... and then espoused that most people don't, because they weren't smart enough to understand that Shepard was indoctrinated (which has at this point been nearly categorically dismissed by BioWare.)

Very, VERY few people are okay with the price of any of the choices, and I haven't met ANYONE who thinks that ALL four choices are acceptable. I think that the most I've seen are people who are accepting of two of the four, usually Refusal and Destroy, but occasionally Destroy and Control. Synthesis, while this COULD be a "beautiful thing," is ruined by the way it's forced upon everyone.

That scene of Kasumi with hologram Keiji, projected by her own internal synthetic whatever, that's a beautiful scene. And honestly? I think she'd be okay with Synthesis: she's already got tons of cyber enhancements, including a Brain Box, or whatever. But let's take another example:

What about Jack? Would someone who's been forced all her life to be subject to horrible experiments and cruelty choose Synthesis? Consider how much she relies on her own strength of will. I seriously doubt it. How about Grunt? Look at all the pride he takes in being the Perfect Krogan, and not only that, the pride he takes in succeeding on his own strength. Would Jacob want his unborn baby to be half a machine? Zaeed could PROBABLY have gotten that blind eye replaced with a Cyber Eye. TIM has those. Why doesn't he? Because he doesn't want that.

The "best" ending has the most problems with it. And that's a shame. Because people who rushed through at first and got the worst Destroy ending probably said, "Okay, that's the bad ending. Now I'll do everything in the side quests and get the BEST ending," made their way back to Starboy, and was rewarded with Synthesis, which at first glance may SEEM a horrifying monstrosity, but when looked into... is a horrifying monstrosity coupled with Galaxy Rape.

All that hard work, and the expectation that through it you'd gain the enjoyment of saving everything and every one, and the Mass Effect Universe that you'd come to love would continue on, safe and sound, and you are instead given the horrifying realization that nope, it's all over, no matter what you do. It's like waking up, and being told that you were in a car crash, your family is dead, and 10 years have gone by while you were in a coma. Yes, there are new possibilities open to you, you COULD start dating and remarry and have different kids. But that's not what you wanted. Hope for a possible future can't outweigh having everything you ever wanted, and then having it ripped away from you.

Modifié par BlueStorm83, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:46 .

[Shepard108278]

AeonOfTime wrote...

I just finished the game with the playthrough I had prepared just for the extended cut. It was exactly what I needed tonight, and also the first game ever to make me cry - and I have a long gamer history (starting with a C64).

After all the heated discussion about the end in which I must admit to have participated myself, I want to thank the whole team behind the game for making it whole. The new ending explains what I wanted to know, and (with the control option) seeing the reapers repair the mass relays and help rebuild on planets was awesome.

Thanks for restoring my faith in one of my favorite development studios.

Agreed.

[AresKeith]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

--- One tragic thing that gets lost in everything is that a Game is something that people do to get enjoyment. That's really the bottom line. That can be happy enjoyment, that can be sad enjoyment, that can be scared, checking behind you, turning the lights back on at every creak enjoyment.

I was just playing an INCREDIBLE space-based game about doing the impossible and having a ton of fun. It was Super Mario Galaxy 2. Silly, colorful enjoyment. On the shelf behind me, I have Condemned: Criminal Origins. Spooky, crap your pants, OHHOLYCRAP, THERE'SAGUYHIDINGINSIDETHATMANNEQUIN! enjoyment. In front of me is the Collector's Edition of BioShock 2. Poignant, delving into what it means to be a father, bittersweet, tragic enjoyment. There's many more kinds. Borderlands was wild, space frontier gunslinger enjoyment. Mass Effect has been talky, techy, adventurous, emotional, warring enjoyment. Civilization is involved, complex, random map enjoyment.

But they all share a key element: enjoyment. If you take that out of the equation, you fail. And that's what needs to be focused on. We as gamers come home from work, or finish our housework, or complete our gardening, or send the kids to play for a moment to get them out of our hair, and as a momentary escape from our real lives, we want to enjoy something. Gaming probably keeps a lot of us from snorting coke.

Mass Effect 3, even if I'm dead wrong, even if it is the most incredible artistic statement ever, even if I'm the biggest idiot ever and I'll NEVER understand why it's so incredible... just isn't bringing enjoyment to its entire audience. I daresay that it fails to bring full enjoyment to 99% of its audience. The majority of people I've seen fall into four camps.
1) They unrepentantly hate the way it turns out.
2) They didn't like the way it turns out, but shrug and get on with their lives.
3) They like the way it ends, but think it could have gone better.
4) They told me that they loved the way it ended... and then espoused that most people don't, because they weren't smart enough to understand that Shepard was indoctrinated (which has at this point been nearly categorically dismissed by BioWare.)

Very, VERY few people are okay with the price of any of the choices, and I haven't met ANYONE who thinks that ALL four choices are acceptable. I think that the most I've seen are people who are accepting of two of the four, usually Refusal and Destroy, but occasionally Destroy and Control. Synthesis, while this COULD be a "beautiful thing," is ruined by the way it's forced upon everyone.

That scene of Kasumi with hologram Keiji, projected by her own internal synthetic whatever, that's a beautiful scene. And honestly? I think she'd be okay with Synthesis: she's already got tons of cyber enhancements, including a Brain Box, or whatever. But let's take another example:

What about Jack? Would someone who's been forced all her life to be subject to horrible experiments and cruelty choose Synthesis? Consider how much she relies on her own strength of will. I seriously doubt it. How about Grunt? Look at all the pride he takes in being the Perfect Krogan, and not only that, the pride he takes in succeeding on his own strength. Would Jacob want his unborn baby to be half a machine? Zaeed could PROBABLY have gotten that blind eye replaced with a Cyber Eye. TIM has those. Why doesn't he? Because he doesn't want that.

The "best" ending has the most problems with it. And that's a shame. Because people who rushed through at first and got the worst Destroy ending probably said, "Okay, that's the bad ending. Now I'll do everything in the side quests and get the BEST ending," made their way back to Starboy, and was rewarded with Synthesis, which at first glance may SEEM a horrifying monstrosity, but when looked into... is a horrifying monstrosity coupled with Galaxy Rape.

All that hard work, and the expectation that through it you'd gain the enjoyment of saving everything and every one, and the Mass Effect Universe that you'd come to love would continue on, safe and sound, and you are instead given the horrifying realization that nope, it's all over, no matter what you do. It's like waking up, and being told that you were in a car crash, your family is dead, and 10 years have gone by while you were in a coma. Yes, there are new possibilities open to you, you COULD start dating and remarry and have different kids. But that's not what you wanted. Hope for a possible future can't outweigh having everything you ever wanted, and then having it ripped away from you.

as James Vega once said

" its not right, it looks pretty, calm and peaceful, but its not right, its just an illusion"

thats how I think of Systhesis, along with it being BS

[3DandBeyond]

chevyguy87 wrote...

@BlueStorm83 and 3DandBeyond, I swear you two are my heroes on this forum.

I would like to expand upon a brilliant point made in a youtube video.

"Remember the game that completely abandoned its genre and lost it's focus in the final moments of the trilogy"?

It's true, wasn't our goal for 2.9 games stopping the Reapers, which up until the introduction of Glow Stick we were doing just that. Our new goal (introduced to us in the final 10 minutes of the trilogy) is deciding who gets the sh*t end of the stick, Organics or Synthetics.

Instead of just killing the Reapers which we worked at for almost 5 years and hundreds of hours of gameplay, we get to throw that idea out the window on the freeway and now get the exciting task of deciding who to screw over by listening to that pint sized little creten, personally I agree with the person who said that we should throw him into the beam. I'll do one better, field goal punt that little bastard in there.

Ha, you do crack me up and are so nice when doing so.

Yes the goal.  The thing you are working for.  Elements of writing.  Protagonist, antagonist, goal, plot.  Rather important things.

The goal absolutely was about destroying the reapers.  Shepard said the only chance they had at defeating them was to work together.  That was the plan-not well received by the military tribunal, but that was it.

There were stories of some rogue AIs in ME1 (EDI was one of them on Luna) and the geth-but it clearly also showed Sovereign had as much dislike for the geth as he did other people.  Then we get to the end of the game and things that we thought were merely parts of the story about getting people to work together to save the galaxy (geth and quarian maybe learn to work together) actually become the inverse of this unity project and the reason for the new goal.  So, since proving synthetics and organics can get along means nothing and the synthetics (geth) that learned to get along must die along with the synthetics (reapers and glow daddy) that can't get along with anybody. 

Seriously, I would like someone on the Bioware team one day before I get too old to explain any of this.  I don't mean in the game.  I mean explain what the hell it all meant to them, because it's the most depressing bunch of bull I've ever seen before in a game. 

[3DandBeyond]

Shepard108278 wrote...

AeonOfTime wrote...

I just finished the game with the playthrough I had prepared just for the extended cut. It was exactly what I needed tonight, and also the first game ever to make me cry - and I have a long gamer history (starting with a C64).

After all the heated discussion about the end in which I must admit to have participated myself, I want to thank the whole team behind the game for making it whole. The new ending explains what I wanted to know, and (with the control option) seeing the reapers repair the mass relays and help rebuild on planets was awesome.

Thanks for restoring my faith in one of my favorite development studios.

Agreed.

I will ask the 2 of you to please state what was so good about it-I don't mean this disrespectfully at all.  And maybe if you would tell us if you played all 3 games or which ones you played.

You see, we were always told the goal was to destroy the reapers.  No one really ever cared about where they came from or their motives.  That would be like caring about the shark in Jaws.

@AeonofTime, I have a bit longer history of gaming than you just for information's sake-a vic 20, then an SX64, an Amiga, IBM PS1, Genesis, and so on.  This ending to me is the worst ending I have ever played among the hundreds of games I have played over the years.  Seriously.

You like control as an option.  Here are my thoughts, though I know you never asked.  The reapers have people goo in them.  They have killed countless numbers of people, whole civilizations over millions of years.  They are the baddest synthetics around.  The kid compares them to mindless natural occurrences.  And he controls them and somewhere early on his programming went haywire and he put his creators in a reaper, the first reaper.

Shepard becomes the reaper god.  Shepard is no longer Shepard, unless you think intelligence is the sum total of what makes a person a person.  Shepard will have no feelings and will have no connection to people on the outside.  No one will know Shepard controls the reapers.  And the music and tone of control is ominous-my paragon Shepard even said the woman she was always knew she would have to become greater-that sounds really odd to me.

The reapers then become the fix it men and policemen of the galaxy.  All tech previously has stemmed from reaper tech.  People have never been alone, never without reaper intervention and never without reaper control.  People have never developed or learned anything independent of the reapers.  Some people wanted to learn how to make a relay, but that idea was squashed because they didn't need to.  So, by choosing control (also synthesis is similar) you continue along the same reaper path-in fact, people don't have to learn or make or do anything because the reapers will do it.

Also, back to the people goo and Shepard.  No one knows Shepard controls them-so wouldn't there be a real fear of them roaming around the galaxy?  Wouldn't you think people might wonder when they will start killing again?  And isn't it possible that a lot of people might consider this a failure, no matter what, since the reaper next door might have their family inside it.  No Turian that saw the destruction of Palaven would accept a live reaper, no matter what.

The only person that ever wanted to control them was TIM and Shepard either kills him or makes him kill himself.  And all throughout the story Shepard has spoken out against control of any kind.

Just looking for some idea as to why this seems like such a great option is all and again I am not trying to argue or disrespect.

[chevyguy87]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Seriously, I would like someone on the Bioware team one day before I get too old to explain any of this.  I don't mean in the game.  I mean explain what the hell it all meant to them, because it's the most depressing bunch of bull I've ever seen before in a game. 

Thank You for your kind words madame. 

Me, I want Casey Hundson to start talking, I want to know how drunk he got in order to come up with this whole mess and actually what made him think that it was a good idea. Another Bioware staff member would suffice that's not Mac or Chris or anyone whose been active on twitter, since you know Casey locked himself in solitude and came up with this mess himself without letting the other team members proof it before ME3 shipped. I wonder what they think of this deal. I vote that Patrick should have taken the reigns at least that guy knows how to write things that make sense.

[AeonOfTime]

Shepard108278 wrote...

AeonOfTime wrote...

I just finished the game with the playthrough I had prepared just for the extended cut. It was exactly what I needed tonight, and also the first game ever to make me cry - and I have a long gamer history (starting with a C64).
After all the heated discussion about the end in which I must admit to have participated myself, I want to thank the whole team behind the game for making it whole. The new ending explains what I wanted to know, and (with the control option) seeing the reapers repair the mass relays and help rebuild on planets was awesome.
Thanks for restoring my faith in one of my favorite development studios.

Agreed.

3DandBeyond wrote...

@AeonofTime, I have a bit longer history of gaming than you just for information's sake-a vic 20, then an SX64, an Amiga, IBM PS1, Genesis, and so on.  This ending to me is the worst ending I have ever played among the hundreds of games I have played over the years. Seriously.

Before the extended cut, I felt exactly the same. I could not believe what I had just seen, keeping my hopes up until the last moments. With the extended cut, they managed to give Shepard's sacrifice the meaning it lacked. In the original endings there was nothing that gave you the feeling of having won.

3DandBeyond wrote...

You like control as an option.  Here are my thoughts, though I know you never asked.  The reapers have people goo in them.  They have killed countless numbers of people, whole civilizations over millions of years.  They are the baddest synthetics around.  The kid compares them to mindless natural occurrences.  And he controls them and somewhere early on his programming went haywire and he put his creators in a reaper, the first reaper.

Shepard becomes the reaper god.  Shepard is no longer Shepard, unless you think intelligence is the sum total of what makes a person a person.  Shepard will have no feelings and will have no connection to people on the outside.  No one will know Shepard controls the reapers.  And the music and tone of control is ominous-my paragon Shepard even said the woman she was always knew she would have to become greater-that sounds really odd to me.
The reapers then become the fix it men and policemen of the galaxy.

All tech previously has stemmed from reaper tech.  People have never been alone, never without reaper intervention and never without reaper control.  People have never developed or learned anything independent of the reapers.  Some people wanted to learn how to make a relay, but that idea was squashed because they didn't need to.  So, by choosing control (also synthesis is similar) you continue along the same reaper path-in fact, people don't have to learn or make or do anything because the reapers will do it.

Also, back to the people goo and Shepard.  No one knows Shepard controls them-so wouldn't there be a real fear of them roaming around the galaxy?  Wouldn't you think people might wonder when they will start killing again?  And isn't it possible that a lot of people might consider this a failure, no matter what, since the reaper next door might have their family inside it.  No Turian that saw the destruction of Palaven would accept a live reaper, no matter what.

The only person that ever wanted to control them was TIM and Shepard either kills him or makes him kill himself.  And all throughout the story Shepard has spoken out against control of any kind.

Just looking for some idea as to why this seems like such a great option is all and again I am not trying to argue or disrespect.

You summed it up pretty well This is how I weighed the three options:

- Destruction: I did not want to kill Shepard, the Reapers and the Geth. The Geth had just risen to become a real civilization, and I felt that they could have a strong educational role to play for any future organic vs synthetic conflicts. They are proof that synthetics can coexist peacefully with organics.

- Synthesis: This sounds good at first, but what this does is a destruction of sorts as well. Merging organics and synthetics in one stroke meant that everyone I knew would not exist anymore, at least not in the form I knew them. On top of that, it was not exactly clear what would become of my Shepard. I suppose that giving her energy for the transformation would effectively kill her.

- Control: I chose this because it is the only option in which everyone survives - even the reapers. As you said yourself, each reaper is built from the remains of a whole civilization. I felt that preserving the remains of these civiizations was better than destroying them for good. As for Shepard, she survives as well. Granted, she is not the same anymore, but I think in a way you could compare this to Legion's sacrifice to improve the Geth - except her awareness is still there (the voice narrating in the end). 

If you think a bit further, I don't see any reason why the new Shepard AI should not be able to make contact with her former team members: after all the reapers were capable of dialogue. Shepard becomes something akin to EDI, so the possibilities are more or less endless. She could even consider building herself a body

Also, everyone else - all the races in the universe survive without any kind of transformation. They can continue their lives and make choices based on their experience. The war against the reapers brought everyone much closer, and even if a universe without tensions is not plausible, the starting point after the war is one of the best ever for galactic peace.

As for the reapers policing and controlling technology: I think you have to put more faith into the Shepard AI. I would assume that the reapers will take their leave when the rebuilding is done, to let the races decide their own fates. Maybe they will go back to where they were hiding to live out their own new lives. At least that's what I would expect...

That's why this ending fixed everything for me.

Modifié par AeonOfTime, 14 juillet 2012 - 01:17 .

[3DandBeyond]

AeonOfTime wrote...


You summed it up pretty well This is how I weighed the three options:

- Destruction: I did not want to kill Shepard, the Reapers and the Geth. The Geth had just risen to become a real civilization, and I felt that they could have a strong educational role to play for any future organic vs synthetic conflicts. They are proof that synthetics can coexist peacefully with organics.

- Synthesis: This sounds good at first, but what this does is a destruction of sorts as well. Merging organics and synthetics in one stroke meant that everyone I knew would not exist anymore, at least not in the form I knew them. On top of that, it was not exactly clear what would become of my Shepard. I suppose that giving her energy for the transformation would effectively kill her.

- Control: I chose this because it is the only option in which everyone survives - even the reapers. As you said yourself, each reaper is built from the remains of a whole civilization. I felt that preserving the remains of these civiizations was better than destroying them for good. As for Shepard, she survives as well. Granted, she is not the same anymore, but I think in a way you could compare this to Legion's sacrifice to improve the Geth - except her awareness is still there (the voice narrating in the end). 

If you think a bit further, I don't see any reason why the new Shepard AI should not be able to make contact with her former team members: after all the reapers were capable of dialogue. Shepard becomes something akin to EDI, so the possibilities are more or less endless. She could even consider building herself a body

Also, everyone else - all the races in the universe survive without any kind of transformation. They can continue their lives and make choices based on their experience. The war against the reapers brought everyone much closer, and even if a universe without tensions is not plausible, the starting point after the war is one of the best ever for galactic peace.

As for the reapers policing and controlling technology: I think you have to put more faith into the Shepard AI. I would assume that the reapers will take their leave when the rebuilding is done, to let the races decide their own fates. Maybe they will go back to where they were hiding to live out their own new lives. At least that's what I would expect...

That's why this ending fixed everything for me.

The problem is Shepard is told that s/he will no longer be able to communicate with the people s/he knew.  The kid never does or else Sovereign and Harbinger would not have said what they said at all. 

The kid's an AI that somehow got warped-it is unfeeling and thinks in terms of on and off, yes and no.  A person is not just about intelligence and what intellectually seems to be the right thing, often is overidden by what "feels" to be the real right thing.

Shepard controlled reapers are sent out to help.  People want to get back at them for the destruction they've caused.  Shepard wants them to fix things-this will help the many (not really anything Shepard consistently espoused).  Reapers are destroyed.  But, they need to fix things.  You need to think like an AI that is like the kid and not like EDI or Legion or the improved geth.  Shepard has a purpose, just as the kid had a purpose.  The kid's purpose may have been noble just as now Shepard's is noble.  But, what happens when one is threatened?  What so far has every AI done when faced with someone that wants to shut them down?  The geth were victims but they did fight the quarians.  The rogue AI stealing money on the citadel tries to kill Shepard.  EDI on Luna.  David Archer.  And so on.  Shepard the reaper god has no emotions and does no longer care about people the organic Shepard cared about.  S/has a goal and if that goal is threatened well it might not be good.  I think that's exactly why the music is ominous and why my paragon Shepard says some really odd things.  It isn't Shepard anymore.

Also, control is similar to synthesis.  It says people cannot achieve on their own and need the reapers to do things for them.  The reapers have always seeded the galaxy with their tech and everything is based upon it-nothing is original, but people need to be left alone and to make their own way.  Otherwise they will always be just children.

Right now it's repairing the relays.  Ok, but one could conclude that that's just the beginning.  A logical mind would not stop there and Shepard says they are there now to protect the many.  So, what happens if disagreements break out-reapers don't just break up fights.  People would fear them and hate them.  A vast segment of the galaxy would never accept them.  Even if they moved out of the galaxy, someone somewhere would want revenge.

Coexistence in this case is based upon implied threats and fear.

I say this because it happens all the time.


I am not saying anything to change your mind, not that it could, but I personally don't think these endings fixed anything.  They don't fit with ME1-3 and all they do is explain the original endings which were conceptually flawed and still are.  I do appreciate your answers and am glad you are now happy.  I do still believe all of the endings are demoralizing and insult the intelligence and the ability of people to achieve independent of some "other" tangible force.  Destroy obliterates that by killing the best examples of it (by the way Shepard lives with enough EMS).  I think a sadist wrote these endings because there is no way to win here.

[TweedleDee66]

After watching the “extended cut” endings on you tube, I’m more pissed off than before now.

Its not because of what was included in it, since for the most part it did answer several questions about that crapzilla original ending we got and it is decent, not good or great but just decent. I’m pissed off more because THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE ENDING IN THE FIRST PLACE or at least something similar or even better. If this had been the full ending that was shipped with the game, its likely EA/BioWare would have avoided most of the epic crapstorm that forced them to make the Extended Cut.

Even with this extended cut that expands on what should have been in the game already, I have lost any desire to even consider continuing and finishing my second run through of the game. I’m more likely to play the multiplayer game which is sad really when you think about it.

What still baffles me is how everyone responsible for making Mass Effect 3 (not the voice actors but practically everyone else) didn’t seem to have the backbone to say “This ending sucks, we need to add something to clarify how this thing ended.” It took an army of pissed off fans to do it instead.

-Dragon Age Awakenings: strike one.
-Dragon Age 2: strike two.
-Mass Effect 3: strike three

This was the final nail. Sorry, but BioWare is number 2 on my video game companies I will likely never buy from again list. Ironically EA gets the number 1 spot and spots 3-10 are unfilled by anyone else.

It doesn’t matter what your next game is, I will not preorder or even buy it new, I’ll rent it and if by some biblical scale miracle the game isn’t a total FUBAR situation, I may buy it USED. It could be Knights of the Old Republic 3 or Jade Empire 2, it wont matter. BioWare is going to have to re-earn my trust to buy a game new from them.

[AresKeith]

put Activision on that list lol

[TweedleDee66]

AresKeith wrote...

put Activision on that list lol

I don’t own or haven't played any Activision games, at least nothing that came out since the X-Box 360 was released so I cant add it to the list due to lack of experience with them. I'll save spot 5 for them at any rate just based on what I'be heard.

[3DandBeyond]

TweedleDee66 wrote...


After watching the “extended cut” endings on you tube, I’m more pissed off than before now.

Its not because of what was included in it, since for the most part it did answer several questions about that crapzilla original ending we got and it is decent, not good or great but just decent. I’m pissed off more because THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE ENDING IN THE FIRST PLACE or at least something similar or even better. If this had been the full ending that was shipped with the game, its likely EA/BioWare would have avoided most of the epic crapstorm that forced them to make the Extended Cut.

Even with this extended cut that expands on what should have been in the game already, I have lost any desire to even consider continuing and finishing my second run through of the game. I’m more likely to play the multiplayer game which is sad really when you think about it.

What still baffles me is how everyone responsible for making Mass Effect 3 (not the voice actors but practically everyone else) didn’t seem to have the backbone to say “This ending sucks, we need to add something to clarify how this thing ended.” It took an army of pissed off fans to do it instead.

-Dragon Age Awakenings: strike one.
-Dragon Age 2: strike two.
-Mass Effect 3: strike three

This was the final nail. Sorry, but BioWare is number 2 on my video game companies I will likely never buy from again list. Ironically EA gets the number 1 spot and spots 3-10 are unfilled by anyone else.

It doesn’t matter what your next game is, I will not preorder or even buy it new, I’ll rent it and if by some biblical scale miracle the game isn’t a total FUBAR situation, I may buy it USED. It could be Knights of the Old Republic 3 or Jade Empire 2, it wont matter. BioWare is going to have to re-earn my trust to buy a game new from them.

Well I'd debate you that these endings would have avoided a lot of ire, but you have your opinion and I have mine.  I find them dystopian, demoralizing, depressing, and fatalistic.  And that's on the positive side.

As for where I do really agree with you-I don't think that a lot of people like to challenge the status quo.  It happened here when people complained about the original ending.  They got dumped on.  And then they got piled on.  Reviewers called them names, other fans called them names and told them to shut up.  And yet the most glowing paid for reviews on ME3 endings said they were ok, something that echoed what pro-ending fans were saying.  I can't tell you how many posts from pro-enders said, "the ending could be better, but it's ok" or "what do you expect from a game?" or "I may not like it but it's their game to do with as they please."

What I know comes from years of observing people.  I'm no expert but... Bioware set up the "Emperor's New Clothes" dare.  I've said this before and seen it before.  It is mob mentality.  Bioware told people their ending was theirs, artistic, and implied it was intellectual.  This creates a hurdle for anyone who disagrees.  It also sets up built in "insults" to be used by others.  In order to say you don't like the endings, you are not smart and don't understand art.  And, it's their right to display their art as they wish, not your right to demand they change it.  Some people will never jump over that hurdle.  They don't want to appear stupid-so they poke fun at the real idiots.  And they've been given the buzz words to use.  Entitled whiners demanding Bioware set a dangerous precedent by changing their artistic vision just so suit a disgruntled few.

The closer you are to the project, the harder it is to express dissent.  That guy that likes what he wrote is your boss.  You know him-he doesn't like to change his mind.  Also, if you are a writer and don't like the ending, which you may only have seen fully right before release, you probably have no say in holding up the release, and even if you could you might be told if you don't like it then you must come up with something better quickly.  Overworked, no time, and under pressure-no one wants to be given that kind of do over work.

And voice actors are pretty far removed from the whole thing-they never know the whole story.  They know their lines.  However, Lance Henrikson did offer a minute bit of dissent.  He said the original endings were abrupt.

[Thore2k10]

i like many parts of the third game! for me it still feels like mass
effect. it is just like that in the end it was all for nothing.

we
have our goal, namely to destroy the reapers, build up over the course
of over a hundred hours of playing all three games. in the end it turns
out to be just a red hering, i should have been invested in ending a
nonexistend war between synthetics and organics. that plotline was
already dealt with by appeasing geth and quarians. suddenly its the crux
of the whole story...

ive recently played me1 again and even
though the graphics are not that good anymore, its still feels more
"realistic". its like with max payne "ah look, theres some cover, in a
few seconds there will be some enemys popping up". it turned from 
"realistic" surroundings to a chest high cover shooter. sure in me 2 and
3 there are good levels as well, like the collector ship and base. i
personally liked that atmosphere very much. in the third game i was
impressed with these huge reapers "stomping" through the cities, it was
great. still, a lot of atmosphere was lost by making this generic human
chest high architecture/cover everywhere.

the dialogue was also better than in the third game, you had more options to choose and less auto dialogue.

as
for music, i liked all three games. i love the music when they meet
vigil. i love the music when shepard and anderson have "best seats in
the house" (i admit i almost cried there).

and now the story...
it could have been simple for bioware. ME1 had it all. intro,
intermediate section (hope thats the right term) and epilogue. it
crafted a beautiful, interesting and exciting galaxy and a intimidating
and mysterious main villain. in fact thats still the best villain ive
ever fought against in a video game. so superior and non caring about
the heroes efforts. it was good for the villain to be unfathomable, made
him even more intimidating. you had a real feeling of triumph and
success when he exploded.

when i first heard about the crucible i
already got a bad feeling. i was thinking "but they said there wouldnt
be a giant reaper off switch" (well in german ^^). and what do you know,
nothing like triumph after the third game, i didnt feel anything. i was
not sure what happened. i reloaded and tried again, this time i picked
another color. then i came to the internet to find out what i did wrong
to lose this game. how can i skip this starchild? but nooo, it was
biowares artistic vision, which turned these intimidating villains into
kids toys and stole all mystery from them. MrBtongue made a wonderful
youtube movie regarding the ending, which explained to me why that
ending is "broken".

answer all the questions except what, where
and who are the reapers are and let us rescue the universe, that was the
goal for bioware! or rather that should have been the goal! just gather
your strength, solve some conflicts and then kick ass. tough moral
choices are in the game, not at the end of it. at the end you want to
see what consequences your choices had, especially for all the
characters, since its characters are really well designed and a central
part of it!

furthermore, its annoying that your choices doesnt
matter. save the council or not, blow up the collector base or not, save
the rachni (really dissapointed there, especially after the
announcement from the asari in the second game) or not and so on... it
had potential to be legendary stuff, a true trilogy, not just by name
and characters. the interactive star wars of our generation! now all
that will be remembered is how legendary the ending is broken and how it
took it all that away.

i wouldnt mind if you started mass effect
3 from scratch and just took over some of the missions like tuchanka
and rannoch. (yes i know, impossible to happen)

thats my wall of text, sry for bad english!

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...
As for where I do really agree with you-I don't think that a lot of people like to challenge the status quo.  It happened here when people complained about the original ending.  They got dumped on.  And then they got piled on.  Reviewers called them names, other fans called them names and told them to shut up.  And yet the most glowing paid for reviews on ME3 endings said they were ok, something that echoed what pro-ending fans were saying.  I can't tell you how many posts from pro-enders said, "the ending could be better, but it's ok" or "what do you expect from a game?" or "I may not like it but it's their game to do with as they please."

Well, as one of the people who did say "the ending could be better, but it's ok" --- what should I have said? That's what I thought of it.

I dumped on people from time to time, sure, but that was when someone was either pushing a silly misinterpretation of the endings or pushing a "happy ending" agenda while trying to deny that was what he was doing -- for instance, saying that we needed "more" endings when the kind of "more" the poster wanted was the Destroy ending with no costs.

In retrospect, more of the happy enders should have come out of the closet before Bio locked down the EC's design.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 juillet 2012 - 10:16 .

[Shepard108278]

3DandBeyond wrote...


I will ask the 2 of you to please state what was so good about it-I don't mean this disrespectfully at all.  And maybe if you would tell us if you played all 3 games or which ones you played.

First I have played all 3  and I will tell you what I liked about it. I thought the ending even pre ec ended the series nicely. I feel that it tied up things well didn't leave many plotholes and fanswered most (all after EC) of my questions and I feel it all stayed in the lore of ME.

You see, we were always told the goal was to destroy the reapers.  No one really ever cared about where they came from or their motives.  That would be like caring about the shark in Jaws.

Actually VIgil said that. I personally was curious about their origins.

@AeonofTime, I have a bit longer history of gaming than you just for information's sake-a vic 20, then an SX64, an Amiga, IBM PS1, Genesis, and so on.  This ending to me is the worst ending I have ever played among the hundreds of games I have played over the years.  Seriously.

I may not have as long as you Atari was my first but seriously? ET, Superman 64 and any Titus mnade game would like a word with you.

You like control as an option.  Here are my thoughts, though I know you never asked.  The reapers have people goo in them.  They have killed countless numbers of people, whole civilizations over millions of years.  They are the baddest synthetics around.  The kid compares them to mindless natural occurrences.  And he controls them and somewhere early on his programming went haywire and he put his creators in a reaper, the first reaper.

Shepard becomes the reaper god.  Shepard is no longer Shepard, unless you think intelligence is the sum total of what makes a person a person.  Shepard will have no feelings and will have no connection to people on the outside.  No one will know Shepard controls the reapers.  And the music and tone of control is ominous-my paragon Shepard even said the woman she was always knew she would have to become greater-that sounds really odd to me.

The reapers then become the fix it men and policemen of the galaxy.  All tech previously has stemmed from reaper tech.  People have never been alone, never without reaper intervention and never without reaper control.  People have never developed or learned anything independent of the reapers.  Some people wanted to learn how to make a relay, but that idea was squashed because they didn't need to.  So, by choosing control (also synthesis is similar) you continue along the same reaper path-in fact, people don't have to learn or make or do anything because the reapers will do it.

Also, back to the people goo and Shepard.  No one knows Shepard controls them-so wouldn't there be a real fear of them roaming around the galaxy?  Wouldn't you think people might wonder when they will start killing again?  And isn't it possible that a lot of people might consider this a failure, no matter what, since the reaper next door might have their family inside it.  No Turian that saw the destruction of Palaven would accept a live reaper, no matter what.

The only person that ever wanted to control them was TIM and Shepard either kills him or makes him kill himself.  And all throughout the story Shepard has spoken out against control of any kind.

Just looking for some idea as to why this seems like such a great option is all and again I am not trying to argue or disrespect.

Personally I think they would know something is different when the reapers start doing things to help. I too like that option.

[BlueStorm83]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
As for where I do really agree with you-I don't think that a lot of people like to challenge the status quo.  It happened here when people complained about the original ending.  They got dumped on.  And then they got piled on.  Reviewers called them names, other fans called them names and told them to shut up.  And yet the most glowing paid for reviews on ME3 endings said they were ok, something that echoed what pro-ending fans were saying.  I can't tell you how many posts from pro-enders said, "the ending could be better, but it's ok" or "what do you expect from a game?" or "I may not like it but it's their game to do with as they please."

Well, as one of the people who did say "the ending could be better, but it's ok" --- what should I have said? That's what I thought of it.

I dumped on people from time to time, sure, but that was when someone was either pushing a silly misinterpretation of the endings or pushing a "happy ending" agenda while trying to deny that was what he was doing -- for instance, saying that we needed "more" endings when the kind of "more" the poster wanted was the Destroy ending with no costs.

In retrospect, more of the happy enders should have come out of the closet before Bio locked down the EC's design.

---  I freely admit I want to destroy the Reapers with no cost- more to the point, I want to deny the three bull**** choices predicated on a bull**** agenda, and THEN destroy the Reapers with no further cost.  I say no further cost because Palaven, Thessia, Tuchanka, Rannoch, Dekkuna, Earth, and many many more planets are already smoking ruins.  We've paid enough.  But I get what you're saying, you have no problem with me because I freely admit that.  And I admit it because I believe that's how a game has to end- if you lose, you get a defeat ending, if you win, you get a Victory ending.  Making it to the end of Mass Effect 3 feels like a defeat, not a Victory, and I want what I had worked toward.

---  I just saw Spiderman, and during the credits, I was considering the Control option.  It's more and more viable for me, and I'll tell you why.

BEST case Scenario, The Repaers become 100% like Shepard, everyone comes to accept that, the Reapers lend a helping hand but don't control or lead the smaller races, and everything is hunky dorey.

WORST case Scenario, The Reapers stay Reapers, Shepard becomes Reaperlike, and eventually war breaks out again.  Even if this happens... we're back to where we started, only this time the Organic Races have had more time to work out how to kill them.  So they have one more advantage.  Bonus: chances are the Normandy Crew will be there to fight against them.  And that's everyone besides who we've lost.  Jack, Jacob, Miranda, Samara, Grunt, Wrex, Garrus, Tali, Zaeed, Kasumi, Vega, EDI, Javik, Willenko (you see what I did there?) Liara, and anyone else I'm forgetting.  Will it be EASIER than what the Reaper War was?  Maybe.  Even if it's not, it can't possibly be worse.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

In retrospect, more of the happy enders should have come out of the closet before Bio locked down the EC's design.

My statement had always been "more and more varied" endings.  Happy and sad.  Unfortuntely, Bioware appears to have always been hell-bent on killing Shepard.from the start.  I doubt more calls for happy endings would have helped.  

[UKillMeLongTime]

only one option...destroy them the entire series are 'us' vs them no 10 minute talk should sway that or some God shep and don't even tyr that weird synthesis where you again change EVERYTHING...again more God based on one persons decision

die or they die or the next cycle wins using liaras beacons of intel

[masster blaster]

Hello everyone. I am trying to get the literalist and ITers to stop fighting. All I am asking is that we combin our theorys and start working on eachothers theorys so that we can create a theory. That will have Bioware just plain out standing in their chairs.

Please look at my poll and remember we can end this stupid thread war if we work together.

[RabidWHM]

I've already added my two cents about the extended cut, which as brought me some joy during own ME3 "dark times". I however still feel that the developers have ruined the games ability to be replayed. I'm just expressing my opinion. I for one have only beaten the game once despite my four Shepard total. I have no use for multiplayer and have only dabbled in it at a chance of the "best" before we all knew that their was only three choices. 

The EC has added some depth into the ending and finished it off the way they wanted. I still can't believe they had that in them all along and we had to wait months for it. The dialogue was moving the the scenes even made me tear up. I still feel like MP and war assets are a waste of time and still contributed nothing to the over all ending process...or maybe i missed something? Thank god I worked ME3 day and night and left no stone unturned in pursuit of the best ending months ago so that i got the most full experience. But, I still can't bring myself to turn on the game and try another of my shepards. I'm still in mourning of my first hero and I cannot put myself through another one of those morbid experience.

Didn't Shep suffer enough throughout these games just to die. I'm all for realness/hard choices, but when we have gotten used to the Me2 scenario where your hard work actually does pay off it makes me feel robbed that all my hours to make everything perfect for Me3 got ignored and funneled into 3 choices. Casey promised an experience for everyone which did not deliver to the final game. I wanted my extra "best ending" why not? Some people are okay with dying heroicly. Others are not. Thats why Dragon age worked. You choose how you wanted to "go out". 

Seriously, many of my friends have done the same. One actually had continued to play but told me he stopped at the games final walk before A,B,C and head cannoned it with the "Indoc theory". I might as well do that since I feel like my Collector's Edition of the game is going to waste. But even then I can't bring myself to put it in my Xbox. I still don't see the point. Me3 is a beautiful game, almost everything I hoped it will be. I'm still trying to figure a way to get back into the game but it has been months and I have not seen any solutions. I guess I cannot recover from the loss of my Hero. 

Modifié par RabidWHM, 15 juillet 2012 - 11:25 .

[Thore2k10]

RabidWHM wrote...


Didn't Shep suffer enough throughout these games just to die. I'm all for realness/hard choices, but when we have gotten used to the Me2 scenario where your hard work actually does pay off it makes me feel robbed that all my hours to make everything perfect for Me3 got ignored and funneled into 3 choices. Casey promised an experience for everyone which did not deliver to the final game. I wanted my extra "best ending" why not? Some people are okay with dying heroicly. Others are not. Thats why Dragon age worked. You choose how you wanted to "go out". 
 

Thats the point, it was your story. They told you a thousand times that this is your story and in the end they force you into three choices which are all bad! "Tough" moral choices have to be in the game, not at the end of it. At the end you want to see the consequences of your choices. It wouldnt have hurt anybody to have a real good ending, in which you actually feel some sort of triumph.

And by now Mr. Hudsons ABC quote is legendary i think.