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[3DandBeyond]

sdinc009 wrote...

Sheridan31 wrote...

sdinc009 wrote...

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but IT is complete fanfiction. It's wishful thinking and though in many ways it does help create a "backdoor" out of the train wreck of an ending that was the original and in less ways the EC endings, the IT is not real. Bioware has stated this .

thx for the news anyway. Where did Bioware stated this, i like to see their words to go the grieve and accept thing...

They made reference to this at the PAX conference. They essentailly said that though they respect the creativity of their fans they are sticking with their "artistic integrity". Reading between the lines, the Indocrination Theory is just a fan made theory and take the game at face value. Honestly, I thought the IT would have been the best way for them to retcon the whole thing and make it right, but it's post EC DLC I don't see them getting on board with IT now.

I don't see them doing it either, but they kieep going back and forth with it. They've also said that the endings don't mean IT didn't happen but they could mean that.  At this point my attitude is this-I am damn fed up with this wishy washy "it could mean this" kind of crap.  Make an ending, make it make sense.  Have it be what you said it would be.  So what if part of it is "canon".  It's an ending-with variations.  Not this nonsense we have that is open to interpretation.  It's open to interpretation that I don't want to have to make.  It's crap.  It's ambiguous because someone thought that was "cute".  And they continue to think it's cute by saying, "it could mean this or it could mean that".  Well, how about it could mean profit or it could mean loss.  That's super cool speculation.  And I really like to see businesses succeed.  I just think that dangling things in front of fans is not cute and not fun, it's annoying.

Consider this.  They say nothing is canon in ME.  Well, that's BS.  Everything is canon.  Unless Shepard is really a frog and he works for the reapers at night.  The ME1 ending is canon with 2 alternate canon choices of Udina or Anderson at the end.  It's not like I could reject one of them and say I want Garrus to be the new Councillor or just make up a new character and say he'll do it.  The ME2 ending is canon.  I can't decide to live in the collector base and raise purebred dogs there.  And Shepard has to survive it in order to continue the choices to ME3 (well not really but in order to have certain things seem to continue in ME3).  It's canon that Earth is Earth.  The Asari are mono-gendered.  The Krogan have tempers.  The choices are certainly canon.  It's not like you have any other way to get the game over other than making a choice or refusing the kid-other than shutting off the game.  But to get to the finish, you have to pick one.  And it's not like they change all that much based on what you do.  So control is the canon control pick.  And synthesis and so on.

Bioware can't have it two ways.  If this is their game with the ending they envisioned, that is canon.  If it's open to speculation and interpretation then it isn't their game with their ending and it isn't canon.  They invited ugh, speculation, so the ending is not finished.

Concerning IT.  Of course it could still exist-it could have started in Vancouver or back in ME2 with The Arrival.  Personally, I see a lot of indoctrination in the opening of ME3 and I'm not an IT adherent.  I respect anyone who is because it was and is the only thing that can truly make sense of this poo sandwich.

Of course all this is open to interpretation.

[Sheridan31]

3DandBeyond wrote...
 At this point my attitude is this-I am damn fed up with this wishy washy "it could mean this" kind of crap.  

Bioware can't have it two ways.

True, thats what bothers me, too. There are tons of people out there seeing two completly different endings.

Without one of them being clear either by content or by announcement, i cannot truely love either of it.

Again, i could live with either of the two (choices for real or IT), but only i can figure out which is the actual ending...

[3DandBeyond]

Sheridan31 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
 At this point my attitude is this-I am damn fed up with this wishy washy "it could mean this" kind of crap.  

Bioware can't have it two ways.

True, thats what bothers me, too. There are tons of people out there seeing two completly different endings.

Without one of them being clear either by content or by announcement, i cannot truely love either of it.

Again, i could live with either of the two (choices for real or IT), but only i can figure out which is the actual ending...

I'm beginning to believe it was all indoctrination, from the first time anyone set foot on the citadel (even before ME1), ha ha.  Vega says  the first time he's on the Presidium, that it's like it (the citadel) wants you to forget there's a war out there. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 02 août 2012 - 06:25 .

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...
I don't see them doing it either, but they kieep going back and forth with it. They've also said that the endings don't mean IT didn't happen but they could mean that.  At this point my attitude is this-I am damn fed up with this wishy washy "it could mean this" kind of crap.  Make an ending, make it make sense.  Have it be what you said it would be.  So what if part of it is "canon".  It's an ending-with variations.  Not this nonsense we have that is open to interpretation.  It's open to interpretation that I don't want to have to make.  It's crap.  It's ambiguous because someone thought that was "cute".  And they continue to think it's cute by saying, "it could mean this or it could mean that".  Well, how about it could mean profit or it could mean loss.  That's super cool speculation.  And I really like to see businesses succeed.  I just think that dangling things in front of fans is not cute and not fun, it's annoying.

Are you still talking about IT here?

I just don't see any upside toruling IT out. All that would do is make the ITers sad.

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
I don't see them doing it either, but they kieep going back and forth with it. They've also said that the endings don't mean IT didn't happen but they could mean that.  At this point my attitude is this-I am damn fed up with this wishy washy "it could mean this" kind of crap.  Make an ending, make it make sense.  Have it be what you said it would be.  So what if part of it is "canon".  It's an ending-with variations.  Not this nonsense we have that is open to interpretation.  It's open to interpretation that I don't want to have to make.  It's crap.  It's ambiguous because someone thought that was "cute".  And they continue to think it's cute by saying, "it could mean this or it could mean that".  Well, how about it could mean profit or it could mean loss.  That's super cool speculation.  And I really like to see businesses succeed.  I just think that dangling things in front of fans is not cute and not fun, it's annoying.

Are you still talking about IT here?

I just don't see any upside toruling IT out. All that would do is make the ITers sad.

Someone else was talking about it and I was talking with them about it.  I've never been one that wanted IT, but I don't have a problem with anyone that believed it.  BW did that to them by considering IT as a part of the ending and then seemingly abandoning that story line.  They did however leave all the IT hints in the game because they didn't change the scenes that pointed to it.

And all I was saying is BW has said more recently that the EC does not rule IT out.  They've said the endings are whatever you want them to be.   I want them to be gone, personally and exchanged for something set in the scifi world in which ME existed.  But I can't have that-so the endings will never be what I want them to be.  But, I have no problem with anyone that is exploring IT as a solution.

[Cheng Chao An]

And i thought they were all plugged into the Matrix...

[Sheridan31]

Well, if i consider starchilds "wake up" as the unplugg from the IT, it means the rest is considered to be real. Would make the most sense to me.

[TGiNcRySiS]

Oh goody DLC announced. I wonder how it will impact the ending? IT WON"T OF COURSE!!!!!

[Zukota]

TGiNcRySiS wrote...

Oh goody DLC announced. I wonder how it will impact the ending? IT WON"T OF COURSE!!!!!

Exacta!

They have said all DLC from this point on will be pre-ending(if you want to call it that) DLC. So we get to expand a "finished" story with events that ammount to war assets. Yay!

[nocbl2]

Didn't realize refusing meant the death of everyone...\\
SORRY GALAXY!

But was that Liara I saw at the end there?

[Zukota]

nocbl2 wrote...

Didn't realize refusing meant the death of everyone...
SORRY GALAXY!

But was that Liara I saw at the end there?

Yes, it was the recording she made. The one she mentioned to you, the one she wanted your opinion writing? She wanted to know what you wanted put down about you.

(Edited because I spotted typos, I'm a grammar **** even with myself.)

(Edited again, I can't call myself a grammar national socialist party memeber on this site? That's wierd. If anyone doesn't know what it is google it.)

Modifié par Zukota, 03 août 2012 - 03:35 .

[nocbl2]

Zukota wrote...

nocbl2 wrote...

Didn't realize refusing meant the death of everyone...
SORRY GALAXY!

But was that Liara I saw at the end there?

Yes, it was the recording she made. The one she mentioned to you, the one she wanted your opinion writing? Se wanted to know what you wnted put down about you.

No. I mean after the credits. The stargazer. If you look closely, you can see the back of her head kinda looks like an asari, and Liara was saying that she might outlive this cycle. Plus, her voice is deeper, implying that she's become a matriarch.

[Zukota]

nocbl2 wrote...

Zukota wrote...

nocbl2 wrote...

Didn't realize refusing meant the death of everyone...
SORRY GALAXY!

But was that Liara I saw at the end there?

Yes, it was the recording she made. The one she mentioned to you, the one she wanted your opinion writing? Se wanted to know what you wnted put down about you.

No. I mean after the credits. The stargazer. If you look closely, you can see the back of her head kinda looks like an asari, and Liara was saying that she might outlive this cycle. Plus, her voice is deeper, implying that she's become a matriarch.

I thought you meant at the end of the refusal! I don't know, I wouldn't think so, considering the stargazer is the same regardless of the ending you choose. Also, Liara wouldn't say that some of the details were lost in time.

[Kaidan Fan]

Zukota wrote...

nocbl2 wrote...

Zukota wrote...

nocbl2 wrote...

Didn't realize refusing meant the death of everyone...
SORRY GALAXY!

But was that Liara I saw at the end there?

Yes, it was the recording she made. The one she mentioned to you, the one she wanted your opinion writing? Se wanted to know what you wnted put down about you.

No. I mean after the credits. The stargazer. If you look closely, you can see the back of her head kinda looks like an asari, and Liara was saying that she might outlive this cycle. Plus, her voice is deeper, implying that she's become a matriarch.

I thought you meant at the end of the refusal! I don't know, I wouldn't think so, considering the stargazer is the same regardless of the ending you choose. Also, Liara wouldn't say that some of the details were lost in time.

You get a different Stargazer scene if you picked refuse.  It's a female and most people think it may be an asari.  I believe that is what they meant.  No word if it was meant to be Liara or not.

[Zukota]

Kaidan Fan wrote...

Zukota wrote...

nocbl2 wrote...

Zukota wrote...

nocbl2 wrote...

Didn't realize refusing meant the death of everyone...
SORRY GALAXY!

But was that Liara I saw at the end there?

Yes, it was the recording she made. The one she mentioned to you, the one she wanted your opinion writing? Se wanted to know what you wnted put down about you.

No. I mean after the credits. The stargazer. If you look closely, you can see the back of her head kinda looks like an asari, and Liara was saying that she might outlive this cycle. Plus, her voice is deeper, implying that she's become a matriarch.

I thought you meant at the end of the refusal! I don't know, I wouldn't think so, considering the stargazer is the same regardless of the ending you choose. Also, Liara wouldn't say that some of the details were lost in time.

You get a different Stargazer scene if you picked refuse.  It's a female and most people think it may be an asari.  I believe that is what they meant.  No word if it was meant to be Liara or not.

Female speaking, but essentially saying the same thing. Although, rather than saying stories passed down, saying stories from the archives.

[BlueStorm83]

Kaidan Fan wrote...

Zukota wrote...

nocbl2 wrote...

Zukota wrote...

nocbl2 wrote...

Didn't realize refusing meant the death of everyone...
SORRY GALAXY!

But was that Liara I saw at the end there?

Yes, it was the recording she made. The one she mentioned to you, the one she wanted your opinion writing? Se wanted to know what you wnted put down about you.

No. I mean after the credits. The stargazer. If you look closely, you can see the back of her head kinda looks like an asari, and Liara was saying that she might outlive this cycle. Plus, her voice is deeper, implying that she's become a matriarch.

I thought you meant at the end of the refusal! I don't know, I wouldn't think so, considering the stargazer is the same regardless of the ending you choose. Also, Liara wouldn't say that some of the details were lost in time.

You get a different Stargazer scene if you picked refuse.  It's a female and most people think it may be an asari.  I believe that is what they meant.  No word if it was meant to be Liara or not.

No, it's not Liara.  She wouldn't call you THE Shepard, she'd call you Commander Shepard.  Besides, outliving the cycle isn't the same as making it to the NEXT cycle.  The point of that scene is that SOME alien race survives and lives free, because you didn't give in to the Catalyst.

---  I read the info on the upcoming Leviathan DLC, and it says that it reveals the dark origins of the Reapers, or something.  So now we get the info on the Reapers, and then still wlak right into Lightbulb's hellhole trap?  Weaksauce.  It's not too late for BioWare to use this information to allow us to CHANGE THE **** WAY IT ENDS.

[3DandBeyond]

BlueStorm83 wrote...


No, it's not Liara.  She wouldn't call you THE Shepard, she'd call you Commander Shepard.  Besides, outliving the cycle isn't the same as making it to the NEXT cycle.  The point of that scene is that SOME alien race survives and lives free, because you didn't give in to the Catalyst.

---  I read the info on the upcoming Leviathan DLC, and it says that it reveals the dark origins of the Reapers, or something.  So now we get the info on the Reapers, and then still wlak right into Lightbulb's hellhole trap?  Weaksauce.  It's not too late for BioWare to use this information to allow us to CHANGE THE **** WAY IT ENDS.

That's it exactly.  I don't need more explanation for where the reapers came from.  I'm ok with knowing that info, but I want to kill the reapers and not need to ever see the kid again.

I have 9000 EMS.  Do I need more assets, a Leviathan asset.  No.  I need one less glow boy.  I need one sensible ending at least.  Not fantasy land.  So the Leviathan can kill A reaper.  Okey Dokey and that means what?

[AresKeith]

and the Leviathan goes against what the Starbrat says about him controlling the Reapers and everything

[Captain McBuck]

3DandBeyond wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
Well that's exactly the issue.  I don't begrudge anyone having a sad or bittersweet or even a demented, I am god of all things, ending.  Great.  But then why were a great many of us denied one freaking happier one?  

Of course, you already know the standard reply to that. The presence of a happier ending turns the bittersweet ones into failures. Shep screwed up, and so he didn't get the happier ending.

That may be the "standard arguement" but it's never made any sense to me.  If the Warden does the Ultimate Sacrifice ending, is ti any less valid than any ending where teh Warden lives?

If an ending where Shepard lives and has a "happy ending" makes teh other endings feel like failures, maybe it's because those endings are already failures?

That whole idea that a bittersweet ending is considered a failure if there's a happier ending is ludicrous on its face.

If you have 2 people that disagree on what the real ending should be they either believe what they say or they don't.

If you believe that everyone dies and the reapers all win is the valid ending and the best ending, then the inclusion of a happier ending will not or should not change your mind.
If I believe that a happier ending is the best ending, then having a reapers win ending will not and should not change your mind.

If however, they include a happier ending and you suddenly choose that one, then you never believed that a sad ending was the best and only valid ending.
And if I go for the sad ending all the time, then I never believed what I said either.

It's like you saying that you'd never pick Vega for your female Shepard's LI if he was an LI.  You'd always pick Garrus no matter what.  If you'd always pick Garrus, then what's so wrong with having Vega as one?  The valid LI for you is Garrus.  But others want something different.  Others don't want Garrus.  If you do pick Vega, then Garrus was not the only valid LI.

If they included a happier ending and people that said a bittersweet ending was the best end up picking the happier one, then they were wrong or they were lying about only wanting a bittersweet one.

The inclusion of multiple endings based on choices was promised.  But that doesn't mean you shouldn't always pick your favorite.  You pick what's canon for you.  If you pick something else, then your canon ending was not your canon ending.


If they had included a happier ending, I wouldn't even always choose it-I mostly would.  I might play sadder endings just to see them and then always know I could still go back and get the ending that is the best for me.  That's variety.

I like to drink Coca Cola.  Most often if I have pop, that's what I will have.  Every once in awhile, I like Root Beer.  That doesn't mean CC isn't my favorite, but I like variety and I'd hate it if CC wasn't available.

@3D  >.> I know  this is really silly but I keep reading your posts in Kelly Chambers voice, maybe cos you reminded me of her analogy in Me 2 - "My Sister opened a Cat Sancturay cos she loves cats, but it dosn't mean she hates dogs she loves dogs too just not as much as cats."  but yeah I agree with your posts - I think thats another problem with ME3 - in ME2  It felt like -Your Shepard. in ME3 they nixed the dialog wheel so much it didn't feel like your shepard anymore right down to the ending it felt like Bioware was taking there toy back.

At the end I was left with only one Ethical choice (Ethical but not Moral) to Murder a friend and genocide a race because - my Shep had just yelled at Timmy for wanting to control the reapers and Synthasis was Sarens goal - thats right through the entire series everyone who talked about either controling the reapers or 'Synthasis' was either Fracking nuts or Indoctrinated. and giving the little brat the middle finger pretty much doomed everyone so--destroy.

I find it hilarious that they actually linked putting a bullet in the walking nightlights head  to the Refuse ending perhaps they got upset of all the YT videos maybe? But also playing for the third time I can see where content was obviously cut - some for time (Earth and the trial, that...just happened no reason for how or why Shep is there), Andersons dialog at the end, a bunch of Kelly Chambers stuff and bits and bobs but also clearly entire sections which were cut for future DLC - no Illium or  Omega and our  time on Thessia was Woefully short, it just seems like corperate douchbaggery to me.

[CarpeNoctem94]

So.... A slideshow. You end ME3 in a SlideShow

[Ksandor]

3DandBeyond wrote...

sdinc009 wrote...

Sheridan31 wrote...

sdinc009 wrote...

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but IT is complete fanfiction. It's wishful thinking and though in many ways it does help create a "backdoor" out of the train wreck of an ending that was the original and in less ways the EC endings, the IT is not real. Bioware has stated this .

thx for the news anyway. Where did Bioware stated this, i like to see their words to go the grieve and accept thing...

They made reference to this at the PAX conference. They essentailly said that though they respect the creativity of their fans they are sticking with their "artistic integrity". Reading between the lines, the Indocrination Theory is just a fan made theory and take the game at face value. Honestly, I thought the IT would have been the best way for them to retcon the whole thing and make it right, but it's post EC DLC I don't see them getting on board with IT now.

I don't see them doing it either, but they kieep going back and forth with it. They've also said that the endings don't mean IT didn't happen but they could mean that.  At this point my attitude is this-I am damn fed up with this wishy washy "it could mean this" kind of crap.  Make an ending, make it make sense.  Have it be what you said it would be.  So what if part of it is "canon".  It's an ending-with variations.  Not this nonsense we have that is open to interpretation.  It's open to interpretation that I don't want to have to make.  It's crap.  It's ambiguous because someone thought that was "cute".  And they continue to think it's cute by saying, "it could mean this or it could mean that".  Well, how about it could mean profit or it could mean loss.  That's super cool speculation.  And I really like to see businesses succeed.  I just think that dangling things in front of fans is not cute and not fun, it's annoying.

Consider this.  They say nothing is canon in ME.  Well, that's BS.  Everything is canon.  Unless Shepard is really a frog and he works for the reapers at night.  The ME1 ending is canon with 2 alternate canon choices of Udina or Anderson at the end.  It's not like I could reject one of them and say I want Garrus to be the new Councillor or just make up a new character and say he'll do it.  The ME2 ending is canon.  I can't decide to live in the collector base and raise purebred dogs there.  And Shepard has to survive it in order to continue the choices to ME3 (well not really but in order to have certain things seem to continue in ME3).  It's canon that Earth is Earth.  The Asari are mono-gendered.  The Krogan have tempers.  The choices are certainly canon.  It's not like you have any other way to get the game over other than making a choice or refusing the kid-other than shutting off the game.  But to get to the finish, you have to pick one.  And it's not like they change all that much based on what you do.  So control is the canon control pick.  And synthesis and so on.

Bioware can't have it two ways.  If this is their game with the ending they envisioned, that is canon.  If it's open to speculation and interpretation then it isn't their game with their ending and it isn't canon.  They invited ugh, speculation, so the ending is not finished.

Concerning IT.  Of course it could still exist-it could have started in Vancouver or back in ME2 with The Arrival.  Personally, I see a lot of indoctrination in the opening of ME3 and I'm not an IT adherent.  I respect anyone who is because it was and is the only thing that can truly make sense of this poo sandwich.

Of course all this is open to interpretation.

The endings are ambigious because Bioware wants to appeal everyone.

The plot holes are deliberate. They want everybody to come up with their own head canon so all head canons would be compatible with EC DLC more or less.

They sell an incomplete game on purpose because they hope the game would sell as many people as possible.

This is of course unfair. I would like to buy a finished product. Otherwise I can imagine my own Arse Effect in my head. No need to buy Mass Effect games .

Besides if they had preferred a showdown with Illusive Man ala ME1 Saren-Sovereign husk or an ending where you could destroy Harbinger from within by defeating a Harbinger avatar or its powercore ala ME2 Derelict IFF Reaper, this game would sell more. People would love it.

I like original endings but when you try to reinvent the wheel you crap in your pants. Especially if you discard the Illusive Man boss fight ending because of the budget concerns and write a poor 3 choice imitation of Asimov Foundation novels' ending in overnight right under 14 lines by a SINGLE (WTF!?) person, WITHOUT the input of the other writers who spent so much time on ME3 to make it perfect.

That is their problem. But correcting that would be admiting their mistake. Bad PR for EA and Bioware, and would cost a paid EC DLC not a free one, and people would feel cheated if they had to pay for it, so they stick to... whatever part they could imagine (the plot hole is open to interpretation ).

Modifié par Ksandor, 03 août 2012 - 12:17 .

[3DandBeyond]

CarpeNoctem94 wrote...

So.... A slideshow. You end ME3 in a SlideShow

ME4 will end with finger puppets.  And the story will begin with a new character, Captain Plothole trying to find the lost invisible Guffin that will be help him fix some problem (to be determined at the end of the game).  At the end, a magical unicorn named Fred will pop out of a cake and offer 3 choices: ah hell, who am I kidding, Fred will give you one choice and that will involve where he will put that horn and how high it will go.  And then dancing squirrels will jump out and tell you how happy everyone is that you took one for the team and the problem you were solving won't materialize because it never mattered anyway.  Then finger puppets.

[3DandBeyond]

Ksandor wrote...



The endings are ambigious because Bioware wants to appeal everyone.

The plot holes are deliberate. They want everybody to come up with their own head canon so all head canons would be compatible with EC DLC more or less.

They sell an incomplete game on purpose because they hope the game would sell as many people as possible.

This is of course unfair. I would like to buy a finished product. Otherwise I can imagine my own Arse Effect in my head. No need to buy Mass Effect games .

Besides if they had preferred a showdown with Illusive Man ala ME1 Saren-Sovereign husk or an ending where you could destroy Harbinger from within by defeating a Harbinger avatar or its powercore ala ME2 Derelict IFF Reaper, this game would sell more. People would love it.

I like original endings but when you try to reinvent the wheel you crap in your pants. Especially if you discard the Illusive Man boss fight ending because of the budget concerns and write a poor 3 choice imitation of Asimov Foundation novels' ending in overnight right under 14 lines by a SINGLE (WTF!?) person, WITHOUT the input of the other writers who spent so much time on ME3 to make it perfect.

That is their problem. But correcting that would be admiting their mistake. Bad PR for EA and Bioware, and would cost a paid EC DLC not a free one, and people would feel cheated if they had to pay for it, so they stick to... whatever part they could imagine (the plot hole is open to interpretation ).

The funny thing is, the most popular person is the truly contrite one who is fallible but big enough to admit mistakes and to show s/he has learned from it and willing to really do what it takes to make it right.

That person must listen especially to people who seem to hate him/her.  Not because I say so, but because you learn little from those who think you can do no wrong.  In the case of ME3, a great many if not most who "liked" the endings and even those that like the EC versions often say they are ok, they're better, not great, but better, and they are flawed but acceptable.  Bioware is working to make those people happy.  They don't all like what they got, but they don't care.  That doesn't mean that a lot of people aren't true fans of the endings-many do like them a lot.  And they will not try to understand why others don't.  I have yet to hear from one who can really explain how they fit within ME 1, 2, and 3.  Usually the discussion turns to deflection and defensiveness that tends to amount to the person just likes it.  I have given numerous reasons why it's awful as have others more learned than I, as have others who have some credentials to back up their assertions. 

I have no problem with any ending that veers off from predictability or that is part of a plot twist.  But, it must be done well and this isn't.  I've seen a lot of posts about awful endings in other stories, especially some with "plot twists".  And I fail to see that as an excuse.  It is however a reason why only those who've honed their craft should attempt it-only masters at the art of writing should attempt what BW attempted.  And even masters fail at it a lot.  People point that out constantly on these boards.  And that's the point.  It isn't easy to do well, so don't do it unless you are certain you can do it well.  ME3 didn't pull it off because BW ignored important poignant memorable plot points that make it seem false and contrived. 

The only synthetics causing problems are those created by a synthetic, not those created by organics that exist now.  And where problems did exist, they were handled, one way or another.  The ending's synthetics vs. organics theme is rendered meaningless.  Chaos is not inherently evil or wrong and chaos has a purpose for the good.  It leads to diversity whereas order destroys diversity which leads to similar genetic makeup which leads to extinction-ask the cheetah.  Chaos is a constant-order is imperfection seen as perfection-all things contained and arranged in some perverted need to control.  Chaos leads to true growth-we learn far more from that which challenges us than we do from that which merely exists.  Order is a machine state.  Chaos is a part of all living beings.  True genius is often obtained through random (chaotic) thought.  And jumps in evolution are due in part to chaos.  Order is control, stability, stagnation.  Chaos is freedom, creation, creativity, instability.  Chaos in its extreme is conflict and a minimum of order is best in order to achieve organization.  But, pitting the absolutes of chaos vs. order was never a part of this story to any real extent and it has been done better in stories where it fit-Babylon5 being the best example.  Garrus and Bailey are examples of chaos vs. order, but they find a balance.  So, there's no need to help the starkid find his balance between the two.

The rest of what BW and the kid says is all based upon the flawed premises of synthetics vs. organics, chaos vs. order, perfection vs. imperfection, rather than survival vs. extinction and quality of life vs. longevity.  There is also the unspoken subtext of who has the right to decide for you.  This all ends up sounding like one person's view of real world choices forced upon players in a game at the end.  The right to choose, the right to determine when and how to end your life, and who gets to choose.  Totalitarianism vs. self-determination.  Security vs. freedom.  Perfection (and narcisism) vs. natural imperfection (and altruism).

It further splits from the ME "world" by forcing the player into 3 choices that all have aspects that have resoundingly been rejected by most of the rest of the story.  Synthesis-the only people that want it are crazy or reapers.  Control-even some Protheans thought they could assume control but were indoctrinated.  Anyone that thought they could was indoctrinated.  Destroy-great right?  If it didn't mean it makes a mockery of what it means to be alive and who has the right to choose this.  If it didn't mean that it clearly defines some races as more valid than others.

Bioware forgot or ignored what came before.  They ignored important parts of ME and went ahead and based an ending on minor points that never were that important in ME or that were handled already.  If they had come out and said they really do see some mistakes they made and want to work to make it right, people would love them and it would pave the way for profits.  Even in making the EC, they never came out and said they made one mistake.  They intended the galaxy to be destroyed, but when announcing the EC they were confused as to why players thought it would be, saying they never meant that to happen.  The never admitted one flaw.  That's not a winning business strategy.  In the game it's impossible to beat the reapers.  It's also impossible to permeate the walls BW has built around themselves.  I have loved ME and I have loved BW.  I really wanted a way to get back to that.

[BlueStorm83]

3DandBeyond wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...


No, it's not Liara.  She wouldn't call you THE Shepard, she'd call you Commander Shepard.  Besides, outliving the cycle isn't the same as making it to the NEXT cycle.  The point of that scene is that SOME alien race survives and lives free, because you didn't give in to the Catalyst.

---  I read the info on the upcoming Leviathan DLC, and it says that it reveals the dark origins of the Reapers, or something.  So now we get the info on the Reapers, and then still wlak right into Lightbulb's hellhole trap?  Weaksauce.  It's not too late for BioWare to use this information to allow us to CHANGE THE **** WAY IT ENDS.

That's it exactly.  I don't need more explanation for where the reapers came from.  I'm ok with knowing that info, but I want to kill the reapers and not need to ever see the kid again.

I have 9000 EMS.  Do I need more assets, a Leviathan asset.  No.  I need one less glow boy.  I need one sensible ending at least.  Not fantasy land.  So the Leviathan can kill A reaper.  Okey Dokey and that means what?

---  We have to find a Being capable of killing (All Caps, ACTIVATE!) A REAPER!!!  I can find one of those.  All you need to do is turn on the game, and look at that dude whose shoulder the camera is hovering over.  Shep-something, I think he's called.  If I recall correctly he's killed 3 or 4 of them.  If you want to find him, I hear that he's living in the dump now.

[TGiNcRySiS]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...


No, it's not Liara.  She wouldn't call you THE Shepard, she'd call you Commander Shepard.  Besides, outliving the cycle isn't the same as making it to the NEXT cycle.  The point of that scene is that SOME alien race survives and lives free, because you didn't give in to the Catalyst.

---  I read the info on the upcoming Leviathan DLC, and it says that it reveals the dark origins of the Reapers, or something.  So now we get the info on the Reapers, and then still wlak right into Lightbulb's hellhole trap?  Weaksauce.  It's not too late for BioWare to use this information to allow us to CHANGE THE **** WAY IT ENDS.

That's it exactly.  I don't need more explanation for where the reapers came from.  I'm ok with knowing that info, but I want to kill the reapers and not need to ever see the kid again.

I have 9000 EMS.  Do I need more assets, a Leviathan asset.  No.  I need one less glow boy.  I need one sensible ending at least.  Not fantasy land.  So the Leviathan can kill A reaper.  Okey Dokey and that means what?

---  We have to find a Being capable of killing (All Caps, ACTIVATE!) A REAPER!!!  I can find one of those.  All you need to do is turn on the game, and look at that dude whose shoulder the camera is hovering over.  Shep-something, I think he's called.  If I recall correctly he's killed 3 or 4 of them.  If you want to find him, I hear that he's living in the dump now.

I could not have said it better myself.  We know how to kill reapers.  This is not the DLC I was hoping to see.  Bioware would have been better served with origin stories of some of your squadmates like Garrus, Tali and Liara.  People that we have been with through all three games.  Even more Jack and Miranda would be better.  If it is 3 hours for 10 bucks thats not terrible.  Supposedly it also has an effect on the ending.  I don't know.  I don't know .  I don't think I can morally give Bioware more money.  I am in the middle of a 3rd and FINAL play through.