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Extended Cut: SPOILER Discussion


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#1851
Makkah876

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Yes Bioware is a "my way or the highway" developer.  Example:

Bioware:  "We listen to Fans!"
Fans:  Really?  It would be cool if we could tell the god-child and his three choices to go to hell.  
Bioware:  Ok.  (creates ending allowing you to do that resulting in you, your LI, your comrades, and every organic being completely boned in the end)

Any fan that takes that as an insult, such as myself, has EVERY right to.  

Bioware DID NOT listen to their fans, all they did was fix some plot-holes and add clarity and closure that SHOULD have already been there in the first place!

Furthermore I disagreed with the endings both fundamentally and thematically in the beginning anyway.  I said it then, and I repeat it now.  The endings are complete garbage.  Bioware can take their (to quote you) "three choices" and "three consequences" back to the drawing boards because they are terrible..

 

I can understand not liking the choices, but feeling insulted by them just seems...weird IMO. At the end of the day, you can't please everyone. Many said the endings lacked closure and we got that. Many said it was to vague, so they elaborated. Many said that they wanted to tell the star child to shove it and they did that too. Doing so, however, resulted in death because you were clearly outmatched.

Is this how I wanted Shepard's story to end? No. I wanted to make super babies with Miranda, retire to Thessia and play golf with Garrus (in one of those hideous sweaters I might add). Not to make light of your dissatisfaction, but I think it would be unreasonable to ask them to rewrite the whole thing. =P

Modifié par Makkah876, 28 juin 2012 - 03:26 .


#1852
OnelShot

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Journeyman313 wrote...

I was going to buy DA2 but not after EC ME3 is the last bioware game I would ever own all endings still suck the endings still dont reflect my choices they might as well explained everything in txt. everyone deserves a better ending. the EC gave clarity but no closure. so there for anything with casey hudsons or BW name on it i will consider it a dissapointment in advaned and i wont buy it


Interesting, didn't think you could go though ME3 without having choices about things like the entire Krogan race, the geth, and the quarians.

Bioware is easily one of the top 3 developers out there and I will be buying what they make.

Modifié par OnelShot, 28 juin 2012 - 03:28 .


#1853
Guest_laecraft_*

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OnelShot wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

IndridColdx wrote...

Makkah876 wrote...

IndridColdx wrote...

Just played the EC. I still hate the endings. I still feel betrayed. I'm not going to invest any more emotions (or money) into games made by a "my way or the high way" developer. Your endings suck Bioware and so does your DLC.


You're not gonna be playing many games then, I suppose. In any event, ME3 isn't "my way or the highway". You have three choices and each choice carries a consequence. Refuse to do anything (a fourth choice actually) and the cycle and war continue. You've been told multiple times that the Reapers have you outmatched in every way, so is losing such a suprise?

EDIT: I lked the EC, and I think BioWare did a good job of clarifying those very ambiguous endings.

Yes Bioware is a "my way or the highway" developer.  Example:

Bioware:  "We listen to Fans!"
Fans:  Really?  It would be cool if we could tell the god-child and his three choices to go to hell.  
Bioware:  Ok.  (creates ending allowing you to do that resulting in you, your LI, your comrades, and every organic being completely boned in the end)

Any fan that takes that as an insult, such as myself, has EVERY right to.  

Bioware DID NOT listen to their fans, all they did was fix some plot-holes and add clarity and closure that SHOULD have already been there in the first place!

Furthermore I disagreed with the endings both fundamentally and thematically in the beginning anyway.  I said it then, and I repeat it now.  The endings are complete garbage.  Bioware can take their (to quote you) "three choices" and "three consequences" back to the drawing boards because they are terrible..

Lets not forget the next cycle uses the crucible >_>

Says where? They never specified how they beat them.


Well, seeing how it's stressed over and over that the Reapers can't be beaten conventionally...And seeing how this cycle has failed to stop them conventionally even though they were the first ones ever to take the Reapers by surprise...And considering that the Reapers would now take every precaution to ensure this harvesting fiasco will never repeat itself again...There's just no way the next cycle can beat them without a magic device.

But then again, there's no way the Child will leave the Crucible lying around to be used in the future. Unless he's purposedly waiting for someone to take him up on the offer.

#1854
OnelShot

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laecraft wrote...

OnelShot wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

IndridColdx wrote...

Makkah876 wrote...

IndridColdx wrote...

Just played the EC. I still hate the endings. I still feel betrayed. I'm not going to invest any more emotions (or money) into games made by a "my way or the high way" developer. Your endings suck Bioware and so does your DLC.


You're not gonna be playing many games then, I suppose. In any event, ME3 isn't "my way or the highway". You have three choices and each choice carries a consequence. Refuse to do anything (a fourth choice actually) and the cycle and war continue. You've been told multiple times that the Reapers have you outmatched in every way, so is losing such a suprise?

EDIT: I lked the EC, and I think BioWare did a good job of clarifying those very ambiguous endings.

Yes Bioware is a "my way or the highway" developer.  Example:

Bioware:  "We listen to Fans!"
Fans:  Really?  It would be cool if we could tell the god-child and his three choices to go to hell.  
Bioware:  Ok.  (creates ending allowing you to do that resulting in you, your LI, your comrades, and every organic being completely boned in the end)

Any fan that takes that as an insult, such as myself, has EVERY right to.  

Bioware DID NOT listen to their fans, all they did was fix some plot-holes and add clarity and closure that SHOULD have already been there in the first place!

Furthermore I disagreed with the endings both fundamentally and thematically in the beginning anyway.  I said it then, and I repeat it now.  The endings are complete garbage.  Bioware can take their (to quote you) "three choices" and "three consequences" back to the drawing boards because they are terrible..

Lets not forget the next cycle uses the crucible >_>

Says where? They never specified how they beat them.


Well, seeing how it's stressed over and over that the Reapers can't be beaten conventionally...And seeing how this cycle has failed to stop them conventionally even though they were the first ones ever to take the Reapers by surprise...And considering that the Reapers would now take every precaution to ensure this harvesting fiasco will never repeat itself again...There's just no way the next cycle can beat them without a magic device.

But then again, there's no way the Child will leave the Crucible lying around to be used in the future. Unless he's purposedly waiting for someone to take him up on the offer.

Kinda my point that the child wouldn't leave the citidel or crucible around for funsies. Maybe the next cycle was more advanced and/or got much sooner notice of the reapers. The point of that end is just to signify that it was a long play, but in the end Shepard did still succeed in being instrumental in the reapers defeat.

#1855
IxSITHxI

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So I finished watching all of the ending with 2 different Sheps.

First I would like to say that the EC overall gets a C+

There are things they did very well to improve the game and make the ending tolerable, HOWEVER there are several MAJOR flaws left. Some were created through the EC some still remained.
 
The Flaws:

The first MAJOR flaw was during the charge down the hill. When the Normandy comes to evac your squadmates, Harbinger just chills there. The Normandy is sitting perfectly still as they are loaded aboard and Harbinger does nothing. Why wouldnt he just blow the Normandy out of the sky? This is the ship that has caused all of the problems for the Reapers and he does nothing. Then as the Normandy flies away, he stares them down.
 This is such a massive flaw that it took me completely out of the game.

The second MAJOR flaw was with the destroy ending. It shows everyone rebuilding the Citadel and what not and all of that other good stuff, but everyone is mourning Shepard as if he was dead, yet we still get the breath scene. I simply dont understand how they can still have this scene but act like he is dead. Theres no way they would not have found his body and saved him.

A lesser flaw was during the run down the hill. The way in which your squadmates need to be evacuated could have been handled in a much better way. The truck that explodes and flips in between them never actually hits them. There was no reasson for them to have been that badly injured. They should have had a bit of shrapnel hit one of them and the other squadmate helps them to the ship. It is a lesser flaw, but it bothered me a lot. Especilly since it was Tali who was badly bloodied. (Note they are fine after the Normandy crashes)

The Normandy still crashes...yea... sigh

You cant tell the god child that the Quarians and Geth are getting along fine.

Hackett knows that you made it up the beam. How does he not know Anderson is up there? Where did Anderson (and the Illusive Man for that matter) come from?

There are lines of hidden dialogue (taken from the code) hinting at DLC. Therefore its possible that we wont see the full extended cut without purchasing more DLC

The Pros:

The scene with the God Child became engaging with the use of dialogue. They explain who he is, where the Reapers came from, and what the crucible did. They also explain what the three choices do, and they give you the option to tell the kid to f*** off. I wish there was and ending in which you could defeat the Reapers with this ending but what ever.

The scenes after the choice were all pretty good, yet vague enough for a little speculation.

Your choices (somewhat) seem to matter and are sort of shown.

The Conclusion:

All in all, had they delayed the game to now, they could have avoided the massive wrath of the fans. There would have still been complaints, but the number would have been vastly smaller.

BioWare managed to keep their ending intact while making it relatively logical. They made synthesis make much better sence and by explaining the choices we know what we're picking.

They did a good job overall, but there is room for improvement. If they mess around with the evac scene, and expand on the fact that Shepard survives and they show him surviving the ending. They should also add the one PERFECT ending in which you did every single thing correct and your forces are able to defeat the Reapers without the Crucible. With all of that, the EC in my opinion, would go from a C+ to a B-.

I still didnt care fo the ending particularly and there was still a lot wrong with it, but I guess its tolerable. There was still soo much more they couldve done with the Earth mission and a lot of other missed opportunites.... sigh

Modifié par IxSITHxI, 28 juin 2012 - 03:35 .


#1856
IndridColdx

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laecraft wrote...

OnelShot wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

IndridColdx wrote...

Makkah876 wrote...

IndridColdx wrote...

Just played the EC. I still hate the endings. I still feel betrayed. I'm not going to invest any more emotions (or money) into games made by a "my way or the high way" developer. Your endings suck Bioware and so does your DLC.


You're not gonna be playing many games then, I suppose. In any event, ME3 isn't "my way or the highway". You have three choices and each choice carries a consequence. Refuse to do anything (a fourth choice actually) and the cycle and war continue. You've been told multiple times that the Reapers have you outmatched in every way, so is losing such a suprise?

EDIT: I lked the EC, and I think BioWare did a good job of clarifying those very ambiguous endings.

Yes Bioware is a "my way or the highway" developer.  Example:

Bioware:  "We listen to Fans!"
Fans:  Really?  It would be cool if we could tell the god-child and his three choices to go to hell.  
Bioware:  Ok.  (creates ending allowing you to do that resulting in you, your LI, your comrades, and every organic being completely boned in the end)

Any fan that takes that as an insult, such as myself, has EVERY right to.  

Bioware DID NOT listen to their fans, all they did was fix some plot-holes and add clarity and closure that SHOULD have already been there in the first place!

Furthermore I disagreed with the endings both fundamentally and thematically in the beginning anyway.  I said it then, and I repeat it now.  The endings are complete garbage.  Bioware can take their (to quote you) "three choices" and "three consequences" back to the drawing boards because they are terrible..

Lets not forget the next cycle uses the crucible >_>

Says where? They never specified how they beat them.


Well, seeing how it's stressed over and over that the Reapers can't be beaten conventionally...And seeing how this cycle has failed to stop them conventionally even though they were the first ones ever to take the Reapers by surprise...And considering that the Reapers would now take every precaution to ensure this harvesting fiasco will never repeat itself again...There's just no way the next cycle can beat them without a magic device.

But then again, there's no way the Child will leave the Crucible lying around to be used in the future. Unless he's purposedly waiting for someone to take him up on the offer.

Where does it say over and over that they can't be beaten conventionally?  a few lines of dialogue?  There's more than a few lines of dialogue thats supports the idea that reapers can be beat conventionally.  In fact there's a line of dialogue Javik says near the end of the game, I believe it is the last time you can talk to him.  He says something along the lines of in his cycle organics never came together like they did in shepards.  Who is to say it didn't go down like that in all the other cycles too?  I for one would think it would be one hell of and ending showing if we ALL work together we can overcome seemingly impossible odds.  

#1857
cbutz

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I thought the EC was good.
Problem: The ME 2 characters needs more loving, including the ME 2 LI's. They were sidelined yet again. Would have liked to actually see a reunion (Destroy High EMS Shepard lives)

#1858
Wittand25

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IndridColdx wrote...

Makkah876 wrote...

IndridColdx wrote...

Just played the EC. I still hate the endings. I still feel betrayed. I'm not going to invest any more emotions (or money) into games made by a "my way or the high way" developer. Your endings suck Bioware and so does your DLC.


You're not gonna be playing many games then, I suppose. In any event, ME3 isn't "my way or the highway". You have three choices and each choice carries a consequence. Refuse to do anything (a fourth choice actually) and the cycle and war continue. You've been told multiple times that the Reapers have you outmatched in every way, so is losing such a suprise?

EDIT: I lked the EC, and I think BioWare did a good job of clarifying those very ambiguous endings.

Yes Bioware is a "my way or the highway" developer.  Example:

Bioware:  "We listen to Fans!"
Fans:  Really?  It would be cool if we could tell the god-child and his three choices to go to hell.  
Bioware:  Ok.  (creates ending allowing you to do that resulting in you, your LI, your comrades, and every organic being completely boned in the end)

Any fan that takes that as an insult, such as myself, has EVERY right to.  

All through the game you get told that you cannot win the war without the crucible. All the work you do in the game, nearly all the assets you collect in the game go into building the crucible.

So of corse the refusal to use the crucible will end in the reapers winning since you not only did not start with enough forces to win conventionally you even spend the game wasting resources on building a tool that you then refuse to use.

Refusal ending in anything other then total destruction would be far worse, making the whole game pointless.

#1859
ItachiBR

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Well the problem is the only way to please most players i think is making a option to let Shepard alive but Bioware don't want that for sure, they created a monster now we don't wanna let him go, remind me of another great hero who still alive despite what some people say he is probably raising his baby dragon god right now with a beautiful lady...
So Bioware is ok to go to a theater and watch Gladiator or Braveheart and see the hero die in the end but in games like this please be ready for many sequences with the same character and FOR THE MAKER don't do something like a "CHAMPION OF THE CITADEL" for ME4 or i will lose all the faith in you guys.

#1860
EnvyTB075

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Probably the only thing that they've actually done right with the EC is the conversation with the star-child. Not in its content though, thats still hilariously silly, but the mechanics. Y'know, get told something, explore it, make a distinct decision between given options (stuff like "i don't know" should have been neutral options).

That one conversation, added on after release, is more like Mass Effect than every single other conversation in the game. What i want to know is why i took the ending DLC for ME3 to become Mass Effect?

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 28 juin 2012 - 03:56 .


#1861
Bowie Hawkins

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If this had been included in the original release of the game, there would have been a lot less ill will from the fans toward the company.

#1862
IndridColdx

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Wittand25 wrote...

IndridColdx wrote...

Makkah876 wrote...

IndridColdx wrote...

Just played the EC. I still hate the endings. I still feel betrayed. I'm not going to invest any more emotions (or money) into games made by a "my way or the high way" developer. Your endings suck Bioware and so does your DLC.


You're not gonna be playing many games then, I suppose. In any event, ME3 isn't "my way or the highway". You have three choices and each choice carries a consequence. Refuse to do anything (a fourth choice actually) and the cycle and war continue. You've been told multiple times that the Reapers have you outmatched in every way, so is losing such a suprise?

EDIT: I lked the EC, and I think BioWare did a good job of clarifying those very ambiguous endings.

Yes Bioware is a "my way or the highway" developer.  Example:

Bioware:  "We listen to Fans!"
Fans:  Really?  It would be cool if we could tell the god-child and his three choices to go to hell.  
Bioware:  Ok.  (creates ending allowing you to do that resulting in you, your LI, your comrades, and every organic being completely boned in the end)

Any fan that takes that as an insult, such as myself, has EVERY right to.  

All through the game you get told that you cannot win the war without the crucible. All the work you do in the game, nearly all the assets you collect in the game go into building the crucible.

So of corse the refusal to use the crucible will end in the reapers winning since you not only did not start with enough forces to win conventionally you even spend the game wasting resources on building a tool that you then refuse to use.

Refusal ending in anything other then total destruction would be far worse, making the whole game pointless.

Really?  It's only mentioned a few times you can't win the war conventionally and all the work you do in the game is NOT directed at the crucible nor are the assets.  That just an incorrect statement.  

And if the only thing you are getting out of my post and what you quoted is what the game is about or what assets do what you're missing the point of it entirely.

Modifié par IndridColdx, 28 juin 2012 - 03:59 .


#1863
Gilbert Salarian

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 Played through all of the endings and must say that many of the issues were -imo- resolved; I would have liked 'rainbows and unicorns', 'bittersweet angsty', and 'depths of despair' endings, but I'm okay with what we got.  As mentioned, several of the WTF moments were dealt with, if a bit awkwardly (your assault team and LI just before you hit the beam; Joker is now following orders instead of mindlessly fleeing Earth) and actual closure was given to each of the endings (save the high EMS+Destroy ending, which is a nice Easter Egg of sorts).  Perhaps the biggest thing is that you can now get more information (or 'clarification' ^_^ ) from the Starchild.  The epilogues for each of the endings were decently done, too, though I have some issues with them:

-Control (whether Paragon or Renegade) still comes off as heavy-handed godShep (and throughout the whole thing I was imagining a Spock/Shep AI)

-Synthesis was touching, especially a smiling EDI and Joker embracing on the planet.  EDI's monologue was hopeful, if a bit naive, and I mostly  disagree with the suppositions made rather than the spirit of what was said.

-Destroy was pretty straightforward, even cliche at times but never too cheesy.  I was genuinely sad that EDI's name was on the wall, so I would have like to see her demise as well as -presumably- the geth's.

Some other issues I had with the EC are still carryovers from the game itself:

-Even though Shepard can ask the Starchild about each of his/her options, Shepard still comes off as too...accepting of what the Starchild says.  Maybe its because s/he is dying, but some of the responses are just awkward, even out-of-character.

-The deus ex machina still exists!  There is very little foreshadowing going into the Starchild and the concept of the technological singularity.  Using a literary parallel, Sandworms of Dune contains a major deus ex machina (and shift in 'The Enemy'), but the groundwork was sketchingly laid in the beginning of the series and a tantalizing glimpse of the deus ex machina was given at the end of the Chapterhouse Dune.  That doesn't exist in the Mass Effect series.  The Reapers were always portrayed as 'The Enemy' and an Enemy that -as Sovereign said- 'has no beginning and has no end'.  The deus ex machina should have been dark energy, which was referenced several times throughout ME2.

-Speaking of the Starchild, talking to it is like reading a book by Ayn Rand.  Good points are made, solid and easily acceptable, and yet they are used to support supposition and wildly errant leaps in logic.  It's not non-linear thinking to say A+B=greenF#m7; it's just stupid.


Overall, though, the game played much better this time around, and even though the endings (and the concept surrounding them) aren't perfect, the game is worth playing again (though a part of me is chafed that there will be no 'after ME3' DLC).  Good job, Bioware Team, on turning a mess into a palatable serving!  Now if they can work on getting faces to import properly... :whistle:

#1864
Journeyman313

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 to onelshot yah the game was full of choices but the endings didnt reflect any of them they really didn't matter I might as well skip through the entire series with the square button

#1865
Guest_BringBackNihlus_*

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I still want to know why Shepard is walking towards an exploding tube in Destroy and doesn't shoot from a safer distance, but whatever...

Modifié par BringBackNihlus, 28 juin 2012 - 04:08 .


#1866
Wazehaze

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Roflty wrote...

I like how Refusal was big middle finger to the fans.

But seriously, green and blue were nonsensical/non-canon.

Red would've been perfect if EDI and the Geth weren't destroyed; and at that point, why did they have to be? It targets the reapers and synthetic doodads but ships and the relays (to an extent) are salvageable.

They're at peace now.


I could be really wrong, but didnt someone from Bioware say in the past that the starchild could be bluffing?

You know, the whole shepardalive- scene after he's supposed to die because he's part synthetic?
Yeah, still grasping at straws

But overall the endings were much better. This is the way it should have been from the beginning.

#1867
Colintastic

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I'm still disappointed. My view is the original was like slamming my balls in a fully heated George Foreman grill. Now, it's just like the grill was unplugged and at room temperature.

The synthesis ending is still thematically stupid. As many others have pointed out, the first several games were about getting everyone to understand their differences and accept them, yet still live in peace, despite the peace being tenuous. So the solution is just to remove some differences? Further, synthesis is exactly what the reapers did to begin with when they harvested.

I still have some serious concerns with all the stuff which was not addressed, such as why does the citadel have this choice apparatus pre-constructed for millions of years if the choice was never contemplated till that moment? How did Shep get teleported to Earth after the destroy ending for the breath scene? There are still a handful of glaring errors.

However, my biggest complaint, is that the ending is just downright dull. It feels like a Matrix ripoff. Granted there are many obvious differences, but great, so some AI used it's logic to come to some conclusion which felt that everyone needs to be destroyed before they get out of hand. That was the big finish. Just seems a bit contrived. The indoctrination theory on the other hand had all sorts of build up, it was really a huge twist that nobody saw coming (apparently not even the developers) and isn't really in another huge sci-fi franchise. The level of detail that follows from the beginning to end is reminiscent of why Harry Potter was so good. Granted IT doesn't really end the story, but taking that route would have given the developers the chance to end it in a better fashion than having Neo show up at the Architect's room and be presented with a choice. At least something more creative than that... because seriously... yawn.

#1868
IxSITHxI

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The only thing the EC really did correctly was the god child scene, since we got Mass Effct dilougue. The problem is the first impression of the Ec is good cause our expectation were so low. as time goes on we start to realise there was still a lot wrong with the ending with the stuff that doesnt make sense

#1869
Wittand25

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IndridColdx wrote...
Really?  It's only mentioned a few times you can't win the war conventionally and all the work you do in the game is NOT directed at the crucible nor are the assets.  That just an incorrect statement.  

And if the only thing you are getting out of my post and what you quoted is what the game is about or what assets do what you're missing the point of it entirely.

So what are the scientists doing ? Building the crucible.
What is the fleet doing ? Protecting/clearing a path for the crucible to the Citadel.
What is the ground team on earth doing ? Opening the Citadel so that the crucible can dock.
Nearly every asset you collect is either helping building the thing or trying to buy time until it can be used. 

I am not completly happy with the available choiches, but in the story BioWare has decided to tell, and the medium they decided to use, they are the only options. Though in my opinion it would have been better if with a high war asset count Shepard could choose destroy without killing EDI and the Geth or control without the creation of the Shepard VI killing Shepard. (I consider the very idea of synthesis so flawed on so many levels that it can not be improved).

#1870
Chico6988

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Thanks bioware! The EC definately cleared things up for me. This is what the original ending should have been. It's not the answer to every question out there, but a definate improvement and one that I can be happy with! Thanks again for taking the time and energy to listen to the fans and give us this DLC. You are a great company! Now I feel like my journey has finally ended on a pretty good note.

#1871
Journeyman313

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i really just felt like the endings was thrown together and I aslo feel that BW didn't want to do EC at all. I think tht paragon/renegade good endings bad endings straight forward like every other game.

#1872
IxSITHxI

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did you notice the lack of quality in the added cutscenes? they were noticalby different from the reg one

#1873
MysticTheurge

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I'm wondering about one (ok, not really, there are much more issues left unanswered, but I'd like to focus on this particular one) thing: what do all those weird dreams Shepard was having throughout the game, mean? What was their purpose if Shepard is not indoctrinated? Why does the Catalyst look like the child from the dreams? No clear explanation is given to that.

#1874
Journeyman313

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yah the EC is really half ass for a top dev. I agree 100 percent they didn't need to run the car didn't touch them and when they crashed there wasn't a scratch on them

#1875
IxSITHxI

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Why did Harbinger not kill the Normandy when it was hovering a couple hundred yards away?