517 réponses à ce sujet

[Subject M]

As I see it, not being able to beat them in open battle is not a problem, the problem is that you can not solve the problem the Reapers are trying to solve by harvesting civilizations. If you could, you could have bested them or at least convincing them to give you and the galaxy a respite and the benefit of a doubt. So I would have liked to have seen 2 reject endings. One that fails (because the problem has not been solved) and one where you reject the Catalysts logic, present your case and it agrees with you and withdraws with all the reapers (how much of Earth and the fleet is left depends on your EMS).

[Sdrol117]

 I found all of the endings gave me the closure I needed. But reject was phenomenal. 

[Unfallen_Satan]

I completely agree with you, OP. I wish this ending was included in the original game.

[Muhvitus]

I liked the rejection ending, but i would have liked to see people fighting until the end, like kamikaze warships and krogans killing husks with their bare hands as they are out of ammo etc. and then --> 50k years later.

[No_MSG]

Geneaux486 wrote...

No_MSG wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

No_MSG wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Like I said, look up cut and paste deus ex machina.

The Crucible does not qualify as a deus ex machina.

Yes, yes it does.  It fires a beam of everybody but Shepard lives.  Or robots die but Shepard lives.  I think in the Synthesis ending I saw an alliance soldier fist bump a husk.

For it to be a deus ex machina it would have to be discovered at the last possible second, and it would have to suddenly fix everything with no negaive consequences.  No, the Crucible is not a deus ex machina.

Try again

It's essentially what I said it was, and the Crucible still does not fit those criteria.  So good job on the petered out condecension.

Condescension is still here.

From the article you didn't read: A deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. 
Okay, unsolvable problem: Reapers cannot be defeated. 
Suddenly or abrubtly solved: Space Magic Rainbow Beam
Contrived or unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object: Character: Catalyst, Starchild, Great Savior.  Ability: Kill all synthetics.  Ability: Control all reapers.  Ability: Rewrite building blocks of life, achieve pinnacle of evolution, have that not be the worst thing ever.

I know you're enjoying this as much as I am.

[Destr1er]

I actually like the Reject ending the best, because it is exactly what my Shepard would have chosen.

It is mind bottling how they released the game with the original endings.

[Supercollider]

Geneaux486 wrote...

 agree that the Crucible isn't a deus ex machina but the Catalyst is, so I think the point remains valid.

The Catalyst's place in the lore is much greater than its role in the telling of the story.  It's used as an expositional tool, hard for me to consider it active enough to be an ex machina.

Not to keep bickering but I'm not sure I follow.  How is the Catalyst not active enough to be a deus ex machina?  It does the entire ending.  Also its place in the lore feels retconned in to me... think Onslaught.  Just because they SAID it was there all along doesn't make it not a deus ex machina.  It still showed up at the last second to solve everything and that's the salient point.

[Geneaux486]

From the article you didn't read: A deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

Contrived: A matter of opinion. There's nothing to suggest that the Protheans never had other plans for stopping the Reapers aside from the Illos gig. It's even hinted at in Lair of the Shadow Broker that they may have had other plans.

Suddenly and abruptly solved: You spend *the entire game* building the thing, and even after it's done, you have to lead an all-out assault on Earth to get the thing into place and *then* you have to fight your way through the streets and through the Citadel to finally be given the chance to activate the thing. There's nothing sudden or abrupt about the Crucible's activtion.

As I've said, the Crucible simply does not fit these criteria.

How is the Catalyst not active enough to be a deus ex machina?  It does the entire ending.

I'll try to explain my rational here.  Basically, it's that the Catalyst doesn't actually *do* anything aside from telling Shepard what he needs to do.  Shepard is still the instigator, still the character that activates the Crucible and brings the conflict to an end.  The Catalyst just gives you the last bits of information you need to get to that point.  Whether or not it's a deus ex machina is debateable, but my opinion is that he is not.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 26 juin 2012 - 11:16 .

[_Flipp_]

I think the bad part about the Reject ending is that it feels a bit...neglected.

Let me first say, I really like the idea of it and I stand ( as stated before ) to the opinion that it's just logical that the organics will be defated by the reapers.

But the problem is that you then hear that Liara transmission. I mean okay, I couldn't bear to see all my squadmates die in desperate fights, but at least BW couldve made those "Win sequences" ( e.g. asari vs reaper, humans in london vs reaper, turians vs reaper) as lose scenes. So its justlike "okay you told the starchild to fu** off " and then you actually see the fight turning in favor for the reapers...

[Creighton72]

_Flipp_ wrote...

Creighton72 wrote...

Personally I think the 4th ending is nothing more than a clue. I don't think it's an ending at all, but ties itself to the story. The moment the Catalyst spoke with the reaper voice, seems to be one big screaming warning about him. Then I look at destroy which is not really a bad ending except for the sacrifice of the Geth and Edi. The races of the universe band together to overcome the Reaper destruction on their own. But when I look at the memorial wall scene, Shepards name does not go on the wall. At first I thought that was a slap in the face, but then started wondering why would you put a living person on a memorial wall. That seemed to be a second clue.

Take in the fact that the other two endings are both closer to warnings than they are good things. Control, one person basically becoming god. When has one person having all the power ever been good? Synergy the single push button ending that makes everything perfect. Don't really have to work for anything every again, everyone gets their wish. The to perfect world that has no price. Both of those are well established warnings signs in almost every form or writing genre ever.

My question is if you tie all the endings together did BioWare pull the wool over everyones eyes for a 4th game? Dropping suttle clues and warnings. You notice with all the endings they seem to not want to say certain things or reveal to much. They have done this twice. The clue in the starchilds voice switch, Shepard taking a breath and his memorial plaque not going up, the well established warning of one person having to much power and the classic disengenuous perfect world that is achieved with the push of a button. There is no perfect world where everything suddenly becomes easy.

Smells like a 4th game to me.

And what should this game be about?

Control / Synthesis: Shepard is gone for sure
Destroy:  Reapers are gone, so no more epic war going on
Refusal: Regarding Liaras transmission you will lose against the reapers, no matter what

Well how should I know? I don't write the stories. You know they drop hints for a 4th game even in the original ending "One more story." I am just looking at the obvious writing choices they made. In refusal they show the Catalyst speaking in that voice for a reason, writers do not make changes like that for no reason. Same for the plaque, that is an obvious change. Now you got to ask yourself why? Is Shepard gone for sure? Dude already died once for sure and came back. Or maybe you get a new hero. It's not called Shepard effect, although we tend to lover are Shepard. Are the Reapers gone in any of them? There could be reapers still in dark space, Reapers in other Galaxies, we don't know. Or maybe we get the beings that created the Catalyst. Maybe a whole new enemy, I can't really say. All I know is that writers like to tie up actual endings and not leave a lot of lose ends. Unless of course there is a sequal. Yet there exist a lot of questions, and the writers chose not to answer to many questions. Well a writer does that for a reason. But they have dropped hints about the Catalyst, Shepard being alive and a 4th game.

There is a lot of speculation with the endings, so I am speculating. Like why they would have synergy and control endings. Any fiction writer worth his salt will tell that both are classic warning signs in fiction. You want some quotes about perfection(synergy).

Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing.

Certain flaws are necessary for the whole.

No one is perfect that's why pencils have erasers.

Nothing that is complete breathes

Ring the bells that still ring
forget your perfect offering
there is a crack in everything
that's how the light gets in

Use what talent you possess: the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best

Gold cannot be pure, and people cannot be perfect

Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without

The most difficult part of attaining perfection is finding something to do for an encore

When you aim for perfection, you discover it's a moving target (The catalyst should of known this, stupid solution)

There are no perfect men in this world, only perfect intentions

The imperfections of a man, his frailties, his faults, are just as important as his virtues. You can't separate them. They're wedded

The human story does not always unfold like a mathematical calculation on the principle that two and two make four. Sometimes in life they make five or minus three; and sometimes the blackboard topples down in the middle of the sum and leaves the class in disorder and the pedagogue with a black eye

I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away

Striving to better, oft we mar what's well

Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it

All of us failed to match our dreams of perfection

I cling to my imperfection, as the very essence of my being

As you can see many a great writer, has pointed out the folly and warnings of perfection. And I highly doubt the Mass effect writing team does not know this. Sense the topic has been beaten to death by writers for centuries. For a writer to just say "push a button and everyting is now perfect." would be beyond hack writing, no real writer would ever do that. To take away that which makes us unique, is to take away the best stuff to write about. Lets make everyone a Stepford Wife? Really? It's hard for me to imagine any writer ever doing that. The whole becareful what you wish for, you may just get it proverb seems to apply. You know Tale of the monkies paw.

[DocJill]

I didn't take the ending as "Choose our ending's or **** you!" I can certainly see a more cynical person justifiably taking it that way, but I choose not to.

My interpretation is that by being an idealist, by truly sticking to your morals no matter what, can sometimes lead to a practical failure despite your moral victory. It is up to you to decide if compromising your morals is truly worth the cost, and it is probably the hardest decision in all the universe.

I cheered during Shepard's speech, and it was by far the most emotional ending of the game.

[Sepharih]

Geneaux486 wrote...
You're easily ammused.

I gotta be to keep replying.

Geneaux486 wrote... 
It's not.

Cut and paste Deus Ex Machina — When Chekhov's Gun is quick-drawn, but it's done in a clumsy way that makes one realize that the author obviously just couldn't write them out of the situation with what they have, so they went back to some earlier point and put in one or two throwaway lines to set up a victory down the road. From the example above, perhaps the hero randomly decided to put a tiny pistol in one of his pockets and just happened to forget that he had it until now.

Hmm....how'd they not find out about the crucible until now?

Edit:  All kidding aside, maybe Deus Ex Machina isn't the correct trope to refer to the crucible with, although it damn well sure is for the catalyst.  I'll argue that tell the ends of the earth (the kid is a LITERAL Deus Ex Machina).  That being said, the crucible is still a lame done to death plot device even if DXM isn't the right trope, and I foundit underwhelming and predictable.

Geneaux486 wrote... 
How'd the Crucible get built and plugged in again?  Oh right, through the cooperation of multiple species setting aside their differences.

And what happens in two of your choices once that happens?  You remove diversity either by destroying all synthetics or creating a new merging of the two.  In another, shepard ignores everything he just said to TIM and becomes a god.
As of now, the only ending that fits the themes punishes you for choosing it. 

Geneaux486 wrote...  
In those situations it's best to use what's actually in the story as opposed to your imagination.

I am using what's in the story......and holding it up to my imagination.  It's not fairing well.

Modifié par Sepharih, 26 juin 2012 - 11:23 .

[bigbade]

I too wish the reject ending had more cinematics of everyone fighting till the bitter end, especially Shepard, maybe getting picked up and going out with the Normandy.

However what I'm most confused about is how the next civilizations managed to beat the reapers with our info...

[Magiking117]

I think it was cool, but yet not powerful enough. After Shepard was left alone they should have lingered a bit more on her - I'll say 'her' 'cause I just did it with FemShep - watching the desperate battle against the Reapers. Perhaps showing a final assault from the other races, like how they cut to the different homeworlds in the other endings. It was a quick pan out, and done.

So, liked the option, liked the speech, disliked the final scenes.

Oh, and would have been awesome if you could win by refusing with a high EMS.

Modifié par Magiking117, 26 juin 2012 - 11:20 .

[M0keys]

bigbade wrote...

I too wish the reject ending had more cinematics of everyone fighting till the bitter end, especially Shepard, maybe getting picked up and going out with the Normandy.

However what I'm most confused about is how the next civilizations managed to beat the reapers with our info...

with the crucible.

seriously.

that big choice you just made not to use the crucible and flip off the starchild?

a waste of time.

thanks bioware.

[DocJill]

Creighton72 wrote...

Personally I think the 4th ending is nothing more than a clue. I don't think it's an ending at all, but ties itself to the story. The moment the Catalyst spoke with the reaper voice, seems to be one big screaming warning about him. Then I look at destroy which is not really a bad ending except for the sacrifice of the Geth and Edi. The races of the universe band together to overcome the Reaper destruction on their own. But when I look at the memorial wall scene, Shepards name does not go on the wall. At first I thought that was a slap in the face, but then started wondering why would you put a living person on a memorial wall. That seemed to be a second clue.

Take in the fact that the other two endings are both closer to warnings than they are good things. Control, one person basically becoming god. When has one person having all the power ever been good? Synergy the single push button ending that makes everything perfect. Don't really have to work for anything every again, everyone gets their wish. The to perfect world that has no price. Both of those are well established warnings signs in almost every form or writing genre ever.

My question is if you tie all the endings together did BioWare pull the wool over everyones eyes for a 4th game? Dropping suttle clues and warnings. You notice with all the endings they seem to not want to say certain things or reveal to much. They have done this twice. The clue in the starchilds voice switch, Shepard taking a breath and his memorial plaque not going up, the well established warning of one person having to much power and the classic disengenuous perfect world that is achieved with the push of a button. There is no perfect world where everything suddenly becomes easy.

Smells like a 4th game to me.

Excellent analysis. 

[Geneaux486]

Hmm....how'd they not find out about the crucible until now?

Because it was buried in the Mars archives.  Let's not forget that it was Liara who found it, on her first time ever visiting that place.  Let us also not forget that she is the only known acheologist to have actually determined there was an extinction cycle at all before knowlege of the Reapers was made public.  It wasn't clumsily introduced, it was a plan that was preserved in an area the Reapers didn't visit in the previous cycle, found by someone who's got a knack for finding things nobody else can.

And what happens in two of your choices once that happens?  You remove diversity either by destroying all synthetics or creating a new merging of the two.  In another, shepard ignores everything he just said to TIM and becomes a god.
As of now, the only ending that fits the themes punishes you for choosing it. 

Synthesis doesn't remove diversity.  Krogans are still Krogans, Geth are still Geth, Turians are still Turians, etc.  Shepard told TIM that he couldn't control the Reapers, and to his knowlege that was true.  The Crucible proved him wrong.  The entire story has been based on preconceptions being disproven.  Everytime shepard learns something new, he adjusts his plans to compensate.  The ending is no different.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 26 juin 2012 - 11:24 .

[jdckelly]

my only issue with the reject ending is it doesn't get as much attention as the others, show them going down fighting and its a perfectly good ending that makes sense

[Thornne]

It reminds me a disfunctional table-top RPG group.

GM has cooked up a big scene, and then the players get into it and they say "Hey wait, this doesn't make sense! What about ..."

And the GM gets pissed and says "The sun goes nova and you all die," packs up, and goes home.

[_Flipp_]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Synthesis doesn't remove diversity.  Krogans are still Krogans, Geth are still Geth, Turians are still Turians, etc.  Shepard told TIM that he couldn't control the Reapers, and to his knowlege that was true.  The Crucible proved him wrong.  The entire story has been based on preconceptions being disproven.

I need to contradict this one. It is cleary stated that Synthesis will create a new DNA which is the same for all. Now it's up to everyone by himself to define "Diversity of races" through looks or through their DNA....

[Garlador]

I actually love how the Reject ending gives that weird Liara vid scene an actual purpose. It's one of the few endings that, ironically, gets heavily foreshadowed and fits in nicely with that scene.

Still, boom, Destroy. Sorry EDI. We'll rebuild you. I have a Quarian with a house on Rannoch I need to build.

[No_MSG]

Geneaux486 wrote...
Suddenly and abruptly solved: You spend *the entire game* building the thing, and even after it's done, you have to lead an all-out assault on Earth to get the thing into place and *then* you have to fight your way through the streets and through the Citadel to finally be given the chance to activate the thing. There's nothing sudden or abrupt about the Crucible's activtion.

As I've said, the Crucible simply does not fit these criteria.

Yes, you do spend the entire game building it.  And then it solves the problem in, what, 12 seconds?  That's what it means by suddenly and abruptly.  It kills every synthetic almost instantly.  It controls every Reaper almost instantly.  It rewrites the very foundation of existence almost instantly.

[No_MSG]

_Flipp_ wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Synthesis doesn't remove diversity.  Krogans are still Krogans, Geth are still Geth, Turians are still Turians, etc.  Shepard told TIM that he couldn't control the Reapers, and to his knowlege that was true.  The Crucible proved him wrong.  The entire story has been based on preconceptions being disproven.

I need to contradict this one. It is cleary stated that Synthesis will create a new DNA which is the same for all. Now it's up to everyone by himself to define "Diversity of races" through looks or through their DNA....

Don't forget, it's also the pinnacle of evolution.  I guess it's all downhill from here...

[_Flipp_]

In a bit unrelated topic - I just watched Refusal with FemShep and speech (In my ending  I just shot at the Starchild ^^ ) and I have to say, that voice actor did one hell of a job. Actually this few lines of speech really make up for the neglected "outro" of that ending.

Modifié par _Flipp_, 26 juin 2012 - 11:28 .

[Tirranek]

If the reject ending was a big FU from Bioware then I don't think you'd see the Catalyst losing its cool, it'd walk off all casual and go 'fine, here's what I've got for you.' As it stands, it's the clost thing you can get to 'even a god king can bleed' if said god was a space-ghost-who-was-a-kid-but-not-really.

Modifié par Tirranek, 26 juin 2012 - 11:30 .