517 réponses à ce sujet

[Geneaux486]

No_MSG wrote...
Yes, you do spend the entire game building it.  And then it solves the problem in, what, 12 seconds?  That's what it means by suddenly and abruptly.  It kills every synthetic almost instantly.  It controls every Reaper almost instantly.  It rewrites the very foundation of existence almost instantly.

So any weapon in a fictional story that functions quickly is a deus ex machina then?  The Crucible doesn't appear out of thin air and instantly fix the problem, it's something you spend the entire game constructing, then it stops the Reaper threat, but always at great cost.  In no choice is it a magic "fix all" button.

Right....and the crucible isn't space magic.

Not any moreso than any other peice of unexplained tech in the Mass Effect universe.  Dragon's Teeth, the Reapers themselves, and Project Lazarus all come to mind.

You are faced with a situation in which the only solution to solve a conflict between two kinds of life is to merge them together and make them the same.  That is in direct conflict with the themes of the series.

Then don't choose it.  You've got two other options.

Shepard told him that even if he could, we weren't ready.  The crucible didn't prove him wrong, it just said "you can control us, scouts honor".  Shepard was right the first time.

Clearly he was wrong the first time seeing as how he did succesfully take control if that's the choice the player went with.  This is made even clearer in the EC.


Also, it just occurred to me, in the refusal ending, you're not really choosing death as opposed to using the Crucible, you're most likely choosing to become part of the new human Reaper, along with millions of your Earth buddies, commanding your own squad of Reaper Destroyers named Turian, Asari, Krogan, and Yahg the rookie.

[daigakuinsei]

Greylycantrope wrote...

My favorite ending. Wish it would actually let us win instead of giving us the middle finger however.

You do win, just not in this cycle.

[ArchDuck]

daigakuinsei wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

My favorite ending. Wish it would actually let us win instead of giving us the middle finger however.

You do win, just not in this cycle.

Wouldn't that mean that someone wins, or more appropriately that the Reapers eventually lose? But the player doesn't win.

[Geneaux486]

daigakuinsei wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

My favorite ending. Wish it would actually let us win instead of giving us the middle finger however.

You do win, just not in this cycle.

Really was kinda awesome how they did that.  Seems weird in hindsight that they'd establish that Liara was making that capsule then not have this be a possible ending in the initial release.

[s17tabris]

I still haven't played EC myself (slow internet connection) but I like this ending based on what I've read. The reapers win in the current cycle but they were eventually beaten in the future cycle/s. The other endings had too much space magic for my liking. I'll just have to headcanon a last stand and how those in the future cycle/s were able to beat the reapers.

Modifié par arr0whead, 27 juin 2012 - 02:10 .

[HMSWarspite]

Eylos wrote...

imo the best ending

like I said in another thread

-red one sucks: because you leave comrades to die and sheppard would never do that
-blue: because in the end you say "ok ilusive man i was fighting you all the game but you are right", and the idea of god sheppard kinda sucks
-green: sarens ideal, humans and synthetics in one, "the best of both the weakness of none", the ending didnt tell the influences on what become synthetic or not

the reject is the only one that says " i will fight for my crew and prove your solutions is wrong" even that he died he sucess in the next cycle

and leaves expectation in how the next cycle deated the reapers

Maybe in the next cycle (game) the new races pull James Vega out of a cryo bunker like Javik and then he proceeds to go all Philly on the reapers arses, sweeet!!!!!!!!!

But seriously I agree with you rejection is good, destroy is ok and the other two are rubbish, it just seems strange though that you can reject star kids options and let the cycle continue though as it kind of makes the crucible pointless.(kind of always was) 

To all those people that point out how conventional victory against the reapers is imposssible what is the point of the game? if the reapers can just continue the cycle and there is nothing the commbined forces of the galaxy can do why does the catalyst even entertain the option of giving shepard a space magic out? The reapers are not going to fail, nothing special has occured that will garantee the next cycle will win either.  

[Geneaux486]

HMSWarspite wrote...
Maybe in the next cycle (game) the new races pull James Vega out of a cryo bunker like Javik and then he proceeds to go all Philly on the reapers arses, sweeet!!!!!!!!!

They win because both Vega and Javik were in the cyro pod.

To all those people that point out how conventional victory against the reapers is imposssible what is the point of the game? if the reapers can just continue the cycle and there is nothing the commbined forces of the galaxy can do why does the catalyst even entertain the option of giving shepard a space magic out? The reapers are not going to fail, nothing special has occured that will garantee the next cycle will win either. 

The Catalyst, objectively evaluating the Crucible, deemed it to be a better solution than what he had come up with, hence why he admitted defeat to Shepard and turned the reigns over to him.  Also, it's not necesarilly a conventional victory that's impossible, it's a conventional victory in our cycle, where everyone waited until the Reapers were lighting their homeworlds on fire before preparing for them.  Everyone got caught with their pants down, despite Shepard's warnings.  That's why a conventional victory is so unlikely. 

Modifié par Geneaux486, 27 juin 2012 - 02:22 .

[HMSWarspite]

Geneaux486 wrote...


The Catalyst, objectively evaluating the Crucible, deemed it to be a better solution than what he had come up with, hence why he admitted defeat to Shepard and turned the reigns over to him.  Also, it's not necesarilly a conventional victory that's impossible, it's a conventional victory in our cycle, where everyone waited until the Reapers were lighting their homeworlds on fire before preparing for them.  Everyone got caught with their pants down, despite Shepard's warnings.  That's why a conventional victory is so unlikely. 

But thats what I don`t get, the Reapers have been reaping for many cycles, what has suddenly changed the catalysts opinion about the validity of its solution? As far as i can see its solution to its problem was going to work just fine just as it had throughout all the previous cycles.  It didnt deem it to be a better solution though it just stated it would be an unknown, and if it can just chuck you the crucible and keep the cycle going why take a chance on an unkown?

[DamagedThoughts]

I am so sorry my words made you kill yourself Saren, you were clearly right all along. If I had listened to you I would never have stood before this little space-Hitler who has wiped out countless species for ages with his three morally repugnant choices.

1) to mindrape an entire civilization into absolute obedience

2) to destroy these monsters at the cost of genociding an allied race

3) to forcibly alter the destiny of EVERY living thing in the galaxy by rewriting their genetic code (which somehow prevents synthetic/organic conflict despite genes not working that way, but hey what's that extra bit space magic on top of the rewriting itself)


Refusal may or may not be a screw you by bioware, but it is still the best choice running, even if you could make an argument for destroy. Control and synthesis are too horrible to take seriously for any sort of heroic Shepard.

Modifié par DamagedThoughts, 27 juin 2012 - 02:42 .

[NoUserNameHere]

ArchDuck wrote...

daigakuinsei wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

My favorite ending. Wish it would actually let us win instead of giving us the middle finger however.

You do win, just not in this cycle.

Wouldn't that mean that someone wins, or more appropriately that the Reapers eventually lose? But the player doesn't win.

They wouldn't have won without your sacrifice, though.

This cycle would've been doomed a few centuries ago were it not for a certain science team from Illos. Their sacrifice is about as important to this cycle as Shepard's actions.

[_aLucidMind_]

I would have been satisfied with the ending had they shown a couple cutscenes of, perhaps, the Raloi or something succeeding against the Reapers. But when I saw it, I immediately thought it was an ending made entirely out of spite for the fans that not only disliked the original endings, but rejected them despite them having very valid reasons to do so. The fact that, once again, your EMS doesn't matter at all with no scene beyond "The cycle continues"..."I am Dr. Liara T'Soni and we lost"...*Enter Starwatcher* says to me it was only put in there as a f*** you to those who rejected the ending >_<

[Geneaux486]

HMSWarspite wrote...
what has suddenly changed the catalysts opinion about the validity of its solution?

The fact that the Crucible presented a better option.  The Catalyst tells you this itself.

[Aiyie]

this statement won't go over well...

but i think there's alot of projection here.  basically people wanted a totally different ending, and they felt insulted when they didn't get it, and instead got an addition that they felt wronged them... again.

personally though,

reject is my favorite ending now.

the Reapers were built up to be basically undefeatable.  sure, eventually they were defeated, but there was nothing in our cycle that could do the trick (not without resorting to a deus ex machina in the form of the crucible itself).

the reject ending feels right.  Shepard, via Liara's time capsule, basically took on Javik's role in the cycle that did eventually beat the Reapers. 

I felt that becoming the last voice of humanity, the final instrument of our cycle's vengeance against the Reapers, was a more fitting end for my Shepard than blindly accepting the Starchild's offer was.

every ending other than reject felt as though it wasn't my Shepard's doing... that by accepting control/synthesis/destroy meant defeating the Reapers through someone else's efforts (starbrat).

at least with reject, it felt as though the eventual defeat of the Reapers, even if it meant the sacrifice of our cycle, was a result of our, Shepard's, doing... not the starbrat's.

[Sepharih]

Geneaux486 wrote...
Then don't choose it.  You've got two other options.

You have used this response before, and you have used it knowing full well my feelings towards the other endings.  I am done wasting my time with a troll.

[Five1thOUsanD]

I actually wanted a possible ending where the Reapers won in the first place so... I'm happy.

[Aiyie]

Geneaux486 wrote...
So any weapon in a fictional story that functions quickly is a deus ex machina then?  The Crucible doesn't appear out of thin air and instantly fix the problem, it's something you spend the entire game constructing, then it stops the Reaper threat, but always at great cost.  In no choice is it a magic "fix all" button.

Definition of DEUS EX MACHINA
1 : a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome
2 : a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty


it appears out of thin air, with no fore-shadowing in any previous part of the story before the final act of the storyline (ME1 being the opening, ME2 the build-up, and ME3 being the conclusion)...

it functions as a means of solving a problem that has no apparent solution (defeating the Reapers... its explicitly proven that our cycle is unable to defeat them through the means available to us without the crucible).

the crucible is most definitely a deus ex machina, as defined by the Merriam Webster dictionary at least.

Modifié par Aiyie, 27 juin 2012 - 03:19 .

[Arturia Pendragon]

The new Asari-like Stargazer scene was interesting, at least.

Modifié par Arturia Pendragon, 27 juin 2012 - 03:15 .

[MasterShepardN7]

I just thought it was hilarious especially considering how so many YouTubers have videos of them just constantly shooting the starchild yet now if you do it something actually happens. I just thought it was funny.

[Geneaux486]

I am done wasting my time with a troll.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Definition of DEUS EX MACHINA
1 : a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome
2 : a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

the crucible is most definitely a deus ex machina, as defined by the Merriam Webster dictionary at least.

The Crucible does not fit those criteria.  It is not suddenly and unexpectedly introduced, you obtain the framework for the idea at the beginning of the game, and spend the entire game bringing it to fruition.  The solutions it provides aren't contrived.  Destroy was the goal all along, control was what the Illusive Man proposed could be achieved through it, the only option that comes out of nowhere is synthesis, but it's just one of several possible uses.  The Crucible is not a deus ex machina.

[NoUserNameHere]

Geneaux486 wrote...

I am done wasting my time with a troll.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Definition of DEUS EX MACHINA
1 : a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome
2 : a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

the crucible is most definitely a deus ex machina, as defined by the Merriam Webster dictionary at least.

The Crucible does not fit those criteria.  It is not suddenly and unexpectedly introduced, you obtain the framework for the idea at the beginning of the game, and spend the entire game bringing it to fruition.  The solutions it provides aren't contrived.  Destroy was the goal all along, control was what the Illusive Man proposed could be achieved through it, the only option that comes out of nowhere is synthesis, but it's just one of several possible uses.  The Crucible is not a deus ex machina.

The Catalyst is quite obviously a DEM. Or did I miss the part where the Reaper's leader has been housed in the Citadel since game one? Parts of ME1 don't even work with the Catalyst in there. He certainly does decide the final outcome of our plot.

The Crucible's functions beyond simply killing the Reapers run the gauntlet of the foreshadowing scale. The confusion between the two occurs when we ask where the Crucible plot device ends and where the Catalyst's role begins.

[HMSWarspite]

Geneaux486 wrote...

HMSWarspite wrote...
what has suddenly changed the catalysts opinion about the validity of its solution?

The fact that the Crucible presented a better option.  The Catalyst tells you this itself.

Then the Catalyst is an idiot, firstly the destroy ending according to the catalyst does not gareentee synthetics from taking over at some point and wiping everyone out.

The control ending is no better how does the Catalyst know what Shepard may or may not do when in control of the reapers? Sheapard may be corrupted and wipe out all orgainc life or may not stop another race creating better synthetics than the reapers.

And Synthisis, well if the catlyst`s objective is to proctect organic life from syntheics combining the two is no good, and there is still the possibility of new organinc life evolving and creating synthetics not half bread semi orgainc synthetics. 

These three opitions are fine if the catalsyt has no power to stop the crucible and just continue the cycle. But the inclusion of the rejection ending means he does, which means that the catalyst doesnt even really know what he is about, his purpose is to proctect orgainc life from synthetics through using the reapers, all three options the crucible provides to shepard do not ensure the catalysts objectives will be meet.  If he has the power to prevent shepard from using the crucible he has to otherwise he is exchanging a solution that works for an unkown.

[Aiyie]

Geneaux486 wrote...

I am done wasting my time with a troll.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Definition of DEUS EX MACHINA
1 : a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome
2 : a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

the crucible is most definitely a deus ex machina, as defined by the Merriam Webster dictionary at least.

The Crucible does not fit those criteria.  It is not suddenly and unexpectedly introduced, you obtain the framework for the idea at the beginning of the game, and spend the entire game bringing it to fruition.  The solutions it provides aren't contrived.  Destroy was the goal all along, control was what the Illusive Man proposed could be achieved through it, the only option that comes out of nowhere is synthesis, but it's just one of several possible uses.  The Crucible is not a deus ex machina.

wrong.

it is introduced at the conclusion of the story.  ME1 was the begining, ME2 the build up, and ME3 the finale.

it was a plot device introduced in the final act, without any indication of its existence in previous acts of the story, for no purpose other than to solve a problem that could not be solved through any of the character's actions. 

the reject ending explicitly shows us that our cycle is uncapable of defeating the Reapers without the intervention of a plot element that is beyond the scope of the player's ability.

that is the definition of a deus ex machina in every sense of the term.

[Uzzy]

Give the Refusal ending a Halo Reach style playable (or otherwise) section showing Shepard and the combined fleet having one final heroic last stand against the Reaper forces, and you'd have the makings of an truly classic tragic ending.

If that were to happen, a high enough EMS should allow the combined fleet the chance to destroy the Charon relay, thus taking out most of the Reaper forces in the Solar System, but obviously not enough to stop the cycle.

Now that'd be awesome. As it is, the Refusal ending is simply the best of a bad bunch, but it's palatable at the very least.

[Geneaux486]

Aiyie wrote...
wrong.

it is introduced at the conclusion of the story.  ME1 was the begining, ME2 the build up, and ME3 the finale.

it was a plot device introduced in the final act, without any indication of its existence in previous acts of the story, for no purpose other than to solve a problem that could not be solved through any of the character's actions. 

the reject ending explicitly shows us that our cycle is uncapable of defeating the Reapers without the intervention of a plot element that is beyond the scope of the player's ability.

that is the definition of a deus ex machina in every sense of the term.

The conclusion of the story is Priority: Earth.  The Crucible is introduced at the beginning of the game.  Each Mass Effect game, while sharing an overarching threat, is its own self-contained struggle.  In the first game, it was Saren, in the second game, it was the Collectors, and in both cases the player is given tools to help stop those specific threats.  ME3 is no different.  As powerful as the Reapers were, a game-changer needed to be introduced, and instead of giving us an actual deus ex machina, they gave us the blueprints for a superweapon who's construction we were able to track through the entire game.  As I said before, if the Crucible truly were a deus ex machina, it would have been introduced at the end of the game and instantly stopped the Reapers.  It wasn't, it was a superweapon your side constructed from nothing more than an idea, and its origins were explained long before you used it.

[Ryzaki]

Uzzy wrote...

Give the Refusal ending a Halo Reach style playable (or otherwise) section showing Shepard and the combined fleet having one final heroic last stand against the Reaper forces, and you'd have the makings of an truly classic tragic ending.

If that were to happen, a high enough EMS should allow the combined fleet the chance to destroy the Charon relay, thus taking out most of the Reaper forces in the Solar System, but obviously not enough to stop the cycle.

Now that'd be awesome. As it is, the Refusal ending is simply the best of a bad bunch, but it's palatable at the very least.

That's what I was hoping it'd be.

Instead it's "let's stand here and get pwn'd." ending. Barf worthy.

The fact that the next cycle decides to use the Crucible (and by extension follow the Catalyst's "logic" and make Shep's sacrifice pretty pointless) is just insult to injury.