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Let's discuss the "Reject" ending


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#201
cgvhjb

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RiouHotaru wrote...

Nice try making a strawman, but you know what I meant by "conventional victory". You can beat 1 or 2 reapers at a time, but the entire fleet? Nope.


Just like we were never supposed to be able to take down Sovereign, go through the Omega 4 relay, or unite the races amirite? Yea, welcome to the ongoing theme in the series that we can acomplish the impossible and when when all organic and synthetic life are working towards a common goal they're far more than their parts alone.

Modifié par cgvhjb, 26 juin 2012 - 07:44 .


#202
Bushido Effect

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I like how the ending takes place where I live... =p.

I'm gonna go look for Liara's time capsule now.. lol.. I also got the ending by accident, I kept rejecting the Catalyst thinking it would do nothing and still force me to choose the 3.

#203
PrimeOfValor

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That is because after the endings, a forumer suggests to put the "refusal" option meant to have "good" outcome not bad, but then again before the EC, there was no "bad" ending where the reapers win. Finally, we get to see liara's capsule comes to fruition in this option.

Modifié par bigmass41, 26 juin 2012 - 07:46 .


#204
ENorman94

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Did anyone here accidently shoot him? I was so mad I had to replay through the whole citadel level after that.

#205
ArchDuck

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ENorman94 wrote...

Did anyone here accidently shoot him? I was so mad I had to replay through the whole citadel level after that.


Thats what you get for trying to oppose their art.

#206
Sepharih

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I agree with the consensus...feels kind of spiteful towards people that rejected the choices given.

That said, while it's extremely frustrating that bioware is deadset on rejecting the themes they instilled in their story from the begining, it's really their loss at this point.
I have Marauder Shields for my *true* ending at this point, and I actually managed some catharsis by telling that little bosh'tet to go to hell. Some people (including bioware I suspect) may call refusal naive, stupid, or idealistic...but I blame the games and stories they made for turning my shepard INTO that kind of idealistic paragon.
To borrow a saying: My Shepard would have planted himself firm and strong beside the river of truth and said "NO, you move". That's exactly what he did in every other game, and that's what he will do in this game from now on.

#207
RiouHotaru

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Sepharih wrote...

I agree with the consensus...feels kind of spiteful towards people that rejected the choices given.

That said, while it's extremely frustrating that bioware is deadset on rejecting the themes they instilled in their story from the begining, it's really their loss at this point.
I have Marauder Shields for my *true* ending at this point, and I actually managed some catharsis by telling that little bosh'tet to go to hell. Some people (including bioware I suspect) may call refusal naive, stupid, or idealistic...but I blame the games and stories they made for turning my shepard INTO that kind of idealistic paragon.
To borrow a saying: My Shepard would have planted himself firm and strong beside the river of truth and said "NO, you move". That's exactly what he did in every other game, and that's what he will do in this game from now on.


This doesn't make any sense.  WHY would you expect anything other than the "rocks fall, everyone dies?"

#208
realguile

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JBPBRC wrote...

M0keys wrote...

then we die. we weren't fit enough for survival, then so be it. at least liara's beacon gives whatever comes next a much better shot.


*Reapers FTL in next cycle*

PRIMITIVE ORGANICS, YOU CANNOT COMPREH--

*sees billions of pissed-off Liara worshipping Yahg armed with Cains*

FUUUUUUUUU--

lol

#209
KLGChaos

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cgvhjb wrote...


That's the point, through out the whole series we're told time and time again that we can't win by individuals who assume they can quantify our chances and tell us what can and can't be done and Shepard always finds a way to show that there's another option. Admiral Hackett is not all knowing and *god forbid* he like so many others may have underestimated what a coalition of the races can acomplish.

Also you're okay with the reject ending essentially being the writers way of saying "Yea you screwed up choosing freedom instead of a nonsensical deus ex machina ending so now you lose, go back and try again"? Really? 

I don't know that sort of ending isn't okay with me and frankly this is part of the reason why the 3 colored choices are so out of key with the rest of the series.


I agree. To me, refusing the Catalyst's choices would have been the perfect opportunity to find another way to beat the reapers. Think about it, Harbinger is their leader, who is possibly Star Child. They could have had an ending where the other reapers are tied to his control and taking him down also takes down the other reapers-- but you couldn't do it by just shooting at him. Instead, the squad would have to find a way inside and then find a way to take him down from there. The EMS score could have been used to determined who survived the assult on Harbinger as the crew infiltrated him and they could have done something like ME2 where you had to choose various people to do various tasks to get through.

Instead, we get three DEM endings and one realistic one. The whole point of the ME series was about fighting back and overcoming impossible odds and in the end, that was thrown out the window. So many of the series themes were destroyed in those endings. It really made everything else you did seem pointless. Hell, in the reject ending, it wasn't even Shepard who saved everyone. It was Liara's videos that let the next cycle overcome the reapers from what I can infer, as obviously, the crucible didn't work, so they had to have found another way.

#210
Daniel_N7

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In my (assertive) opinion the reject ending is an incredibly missed opportunity. What a potential. It should have been developed much more, we could have seen Shepard's fate, even a reunion with the crew, and see an ultimate front-line of war against the Reapers. It could have been an open ending - we don't know what happens... Would the Reapers prevail? Would the Alliance fleet overcome the odds? It could end right there, on the edge of uncertainty, before the ultimate battle, but with a glimmer of hope. Maybe, just maybe... we could still win.
The End!

I think that would please a lot of people.

Just a thought...

#211
Sepharih

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RiouHotaru wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

I agree with the consensus...feels kind of spiteful towards people that rejected the choices given.

That said, while it's extremely frustrating that bioware is deadset on rejecting the themes they instilled in their story from the begining, it's really their loss at this point.
I have Marauder Shields for my *true* ending at this point, and I actually managed some catharsis by telling that little bosh'tet to go to hell. Some people (including bioware I suspect) may call refusal naive, stupid, or idealistic...but I blame the games and stories they made for turning my shepard INTO that kind of idealistic paragon.
To borrow a saying: My Shepard would have planted himself firm and strong beside the river of truth and said "NO, you move". That's exactly what he did in every other game, and that's what he will do in this game from now on.


This doesn't make any sense.  WHY would you expect anything other than the "rocks fall, everyone dies?"


Shepard routinely defies the odds and achieves the impossible despite what everyone tells him, and my shepard does it "without sacrificing the soul of our species" (to use his words).  He's done it for almost 3 straight games.
I have no more reason to accept the supposed inevitabilities and solutions Space Brat offered shepard than Luke Skywalker had to accept the Emperor's offer in ROTJ.  No matter how bad things look, no matter how impossible the situation, my shepard wouldn't compromise his values and give up hope.

Bioware wants to punish Shepard for holding true to a theme they've pushed since ME 1?  So be it.

Modifié par Sepharih, 26 juin 2012 - 07:59 .


#212
ArchDuck

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RiouHotaru wrote...

This doesn't make any sense.  WHY would you expect anything other than the "rocks fall, everyone dies?"


Because I thought they might be professional storytellers instead of 8th grade gamemasters* on a powertrip?


*table top rpg reference

Modifié par ArchDuck, 26 juin 2012 - 08:00 .


#213
ArchDuck

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Daniel_N7 wrote...

In my (assertive) opinion the reject ending is an incredibly missed opportunity. What a potential. It should have been developed much more, we could have seen Shepard's fate, even a reunion with the crew, and see an ultimate front-line of war against the Reapers. It could have been an open ending - we don't know what happens... Would the Reapers prevail? Would the Alliance fleet overcome the odds? It could end right there, on the edge of uncertainty, before the ultimate battle, but with a glimmer of hope. Maybe, just maybe... we could still win.
The End!

I think that would please a lot of people.

Just a thought...


Very true.

#214
RiouHotaru

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The game outright states "You can't beat the Reapers with force. They ignore all conventional strategy, all the usual war-fare tactics. In fact, the only way you can make them PAUSE for a few moments is to start a war of attrition, (Miracle of Palaven), which you will eventually lose anyway because they outnumber and outgun you."

And you expected the "I reject your options" choice to end in anything but a "Reapers Win" scenario? Seriously?

Wow, my friends were right, someone will always find a reason to be upset.

#215
Sir Fluffykins

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What EMS did you guys have? Include Readiness, please, I'd like to know if the guys that hated, had low EMS, or if there's ONLY 4 options

#216
ArchDuck

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RiouHotaru wrote...

The game outright states "You can't beat the Reapers with force. They ignore all conventional strategy, all the usual war-fare tactics. In fact, the only way you can make them PAUSE for a few moments is to start a war of attrition, (Miracle of Palaven), which you will eventually lose anyway because they outnumber and outgun you."

And you expected the "I reject your options" choice to end in anything but a "Reapers Win" scenario? Seriously?

Wow, my friends were right, someone will always find a reason to be upset.


You can't see overall themes can you?

Reapers can't be killed -> kill reaper
Omega 4 relay can not be entered -> enter relay and come back
Collectors can not be defeated -> defeat collectors
Reaper forces can not be stopped -> fought to a standstill
Races can not be united -> unite the various races

The entire series has been about doing what "people" say is impossible but the game always has been about accomplishing the impossible. Then you wonder why people would expect this over arching theme to include the ending of the last game in the trilogy?

:blink:

Modifié par ArchDuck, 26 juin 2012 - 08:11 .


#217
Sepharih

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RiouHotaru wrote...

The game outright states "You can't beat the Reapers with force..


Characters tell the central protagonist in storytelling that what they're trying to do (and succeed in) is "impossible" constantly in storytelling.  It only serves to strengthen the catharsis at the end when the protagonist defies all conventional wisdom and triumphs against the impossible.  Anybody who's seen any Disney movie should recognize that.

#218
Binary_Helix 1

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Daniel_N7 wrote...

In my (assertive) opinion the reject ending is an incredibly missed opportunity. What a potential. It should have been developed much more, we could have seen Shepard's fate, even a reunion with the crew, and see an ultimate front-line of war against the Reapers. It could have been an open ending - we don't know what happens... Would the Reapers prevail? Would the Alliance fleet overcome the odds? It could end right there, on the edge of uncertainty, before the ultimate battle, but with a glimmer of hope. Maybe, just maybe... we could still win.
The End!

I think that would please a lot of people.

Just a thought...


Agreed.

#219
Daniel_N7

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The Krogan have spoken!

:devil:

#220
cgvhjb

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KLGChaos wrote...

cgvhjb wrote...


That's the point, through out the whole series we're told time and time again that we can't win by individuals who assume they can quantify our chances and tell us what can and can't be done and Shepard always finds a way to show that there's another option. Admiral Hackett is not all knowing and *god forbid* he like so many others may have underestimated what a coalition of the races can acomplish.

Also you're okay with the reject ending essentially being the writers way of saying "Yea you screwed up choosing freedom instead of a nonsensical deus ex machina ending so now you lose, go back and try again"? Really? 

I don't know that sort of ending isn't okay with me and frankly this is part of the reason why the 3 colored choices are so out of key with the rest of the series.


I agree. To me, refusing the Catalyst's choices would have been the perfect opportunity to find another way to beat the reapers. Think about it, Harbinger is their leader, who is possibly Star Child. They could have had an ending where the other reapers are tied to his control and taking him down also takes down the other reapers-- but you couldn't do it by just shooting at him. Instead, the squad would have to find a way inside and then find a way to take him down from there. The EMS score could have been used to determined who survived the assult on Harbinger as the crew infiltrated him and they could have done something like ME2 where you had to choose various people to do various tasks to get through.

Instead, we get three DEM endings and one realistic one. The whole point of the ME series was about fighting back and overcoming impossible odds and in the end, that was thrown out the window. So many of the series themes were destroyed in those endings. It really made everything else you did seem pointless. Hell, in the reject ending, it wasn't even Shepard who saved everyone. It was Liara's videos that let the next cycle overcome the reapers from what I can infer, as obviously, the crucible didn't work, so they had to have found another way.


Wow, loving the idea of infiltrating the Catalyst and actually using the EMS scores for something, good call on that. :) Also would have been a nice chance for a final tough fight of some kind, I know I'm a bit boring in this regrard but... the pacing of the game just felt off at the end (despite the aforementioned reasons) when there's no real climax or final confrontation in what's essentially an action RPG. So yea getting 2nd chance to actually get that "epic showdown" might have been a nice addition as well.

Shepard routinely defies the odds and achieves the impossible
despite what everyone tells him, and my shepard does it "without
sacrificing the soul of our species" (to use his words).  He's done it
for almost 3 straight games.
I have no more reason to accept the
supposed inevitabilities and solutions Space Brat offered shepard than
Luke Skywalker had to accept the Emperor's offer in ROTJ.  No matter how
bad things look, no matter how impossible the situation, my shepard
wouldn't compromise his values and give up hope.

Bioware wantsto punish Shepard for holding true to a theme they've pushed since ME 1?  So be it.


I couldn't agree more, the very idea of Shepard is that he can win against insurmountable odds without compromising himself, so why now is he so ready to acquiesce to some know it all space diety telling him he has to make a choice that compromises his morality and beliefs. The Shepard I know would have never stood for that and would have never been kowtoed by a mass murder who condescendingly thinks the knows everything as well.

Dunno, like so many others have said this option just seems like a MASSIVE missed opportunity, this was truely a chance to offer something new to the fans to show that they have listened to our concerns and that they do understand who Shep is in the end but instead we just had a door slammed in our faces *sigh*

#221
samb

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cgvhjb wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Nice try making a strawman, but you know what I meant by "conventional victory". You can beat 1 or 2 reapers at a time, but the entire fleet? Nope.


Just like we were never supposed to be able to take down Sovereign, go through the Omega 4 relay, or unite the races amirite? Yea, welcome to the ongoing theme in the series that we can acomplish the impossible and when when all organic and synthetic life are working towards a common goal they're far more than their parts alone.

This is dumb. You were able to beat the collector because you had the reaper IFF. If you didn't you would be space debris. You are able to beat the reapers because of the Crucible. If you don't use it then you die. You are able to accomplish your goals because you used the tools at your disposal. If you don't use them then you don't accomplish them. It's as simple as pie. And if you don't get it then you are not thinking with logic and letting your Personal hang ups get in the way. 

#222
RiouHotaru

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Uh...your points are only midly accurate:

1) Difference between Reaper (singular) and Reapers (plural)
2) No-one bothers going through the Omega 4 Relay for that reason (no-one comes back), TIM just thinks you'll beat the odds.
3) I never see that point made in ME2
4) It's a momentary standstill, it won't last. In-game and in the Codex they drill that into you. Those tactics won't work all the time.
5) When does anyone say that?

Also, the game constantly throws out about how races are getting rolled over and how millions are dying every day. It's silly to say that an ending where choosing to do nothing gets you wiped out is somehow a "Take That!"

#223
Sepharih

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samb wrote...

cgvhjb wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Nice try making a strawman, but you know what I meant by "conventional victory". You can beat 1 or 2 reapers at a time, but the entire fleet? Nope.


Just like we were never supposed to be able to take down Sovereign, go through the Omega 4 relay, or unite the races amirite? Yea, welcome to the ongoing theme in the series that we can acomplish the impossible and when when all organic and synthetic life are working towards a common goal they're far more than their parts alone.

This is dumb. You were able to beat the collector because you had the reaper IFF. If you didn't you would be space debris. You are able to beat the reapers because of the Crucible. If you don't use it then you die. You are able to accomplish your goals because you used the tools at your disposal. If you don't use them then you don't accomplish them. It's as simple as pie. And if you don't get it then you are not thinking with logic and letting your Personal hang ups get in the way. 


As I've said before, the crucible isn't my issue.  It's a lame done to death plot device, but it isn't antithetical to the core themes of the series or my Shepard's moral structure.  The catalyst and the solutions he provides you with on the other hand.....

#224
FedericoV

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Artistically it's the best ending. And the point where Harbringer assume direct controll of the star brat is scary. I like it very much even if my canon ending remains destroy.

#225
KLGChaos

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cgvhjb wrote...

KLGChaos wrote...

cgvhjb wrote...


That's the point, through out the whole series we're told time and time again that we can't win by individuals who assume they can quantify our chances and tell us what can and can't be done and Shepard always finds a way to show that there's another option. Admiral Hackett is not all knowing and *god forbid* he like so many others may have underestimated what a coalition of the races can acomplish.

Also you're okay with the reject ending essentially being the writers way of saying "Yea you screwed up choosing freedom instead of a nonsensical deus ex machina ending so now you lose, go back and try again"? Really? 

I don't know that sort of ending isn't okay with me and frankly this is part of the reason why the 3 colored choices are so out of key with the rest of the series.


I agree. To me, refusing the Catalyst's choices would have been the perfect opportunity to find another way to beat the reapers. Think about it, Harbinger is their leader, who is possibly Star Child. They could have had an ending where the other reapers are tied to his control and taking him down also takes down the other reapers-- but you couldn't do it by just shooting at him. Instead, the squad would have to find a way inside and then find a way to take him down from there. The EMS score could have been used to determined who survived the assult on Harbinger as the crew infiltrated him and they could have done something like ME2 where you had to choose various people to do various tasks to get through.

Instead, we get three DEM endings and one realistic one. The whole point of the ME series was about fighting back and overcoming impossible odds and in the end, that was thrown out the window. So many of the series themes were destroyed in those endings. It really made everything else you did seem pointless. Hell, in the reject ending, it wasn't even Shepard who saved everyone. It was Liara's videos that let the next cycle overcome the reapers from what I can infer, as obviously, the crucible didn't work, so they had to have found another way.


Wow, loving the idea of infiltrating the Catalyst and actually using the EMS scores for something, good call on that. :) Also would have been a nice chance for a final tough fight of some kind, I know I'm a bit boring in this regrard but... the pacing of the game just felt off at the end (despite the aforementioned reasons) when there's no real climax or final confrontation in what's essentially an action RPG. So yea getting 2nd chance to actually get that "epic showdown" might have been a nice addition as well.


Thank you. There could have been multiple endings from there.. a Paragon Shep could have chosen to kill Harbinger (and thus the other reapers because they'd be linked), while a Renegade could take control of him. Heck, they could even have some situation where you or your team mates are in danger of being indoctrinated as they go through Harby's body and choices you made throughout the games determine if they can fight it off or not.

I actually got the idea of infiltrating from FFX. At the end, the team infiltrates an "unstoppable being" and takes it down from the inside.