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A Good Read: Information about bug fixes and game enhancements


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#1
Mgamerz

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OTHER GOOD READS
Good Read: The Effects of Armor and Shieldgate

I have noticed a lot on the forums (mainly multiplayer), a lot of people seem to be upset over the time it takes to get bug fixes, or how 'easy' an idea they have would be to implement. Most of the people on these forums are most likely not programmers.

As a forward, I'm not writing this to be condescending. I'm just trying to give you some enlightenment on BioWare's actions, from a programmers perspective.

There are many bugs with ME3. We all know this. Rocket glitch, Vanguard glitch, Map glitches, ULM doesn't work as intented entirely... but what game doesn't have bugs and glitches? You can't make a perfect game. You can't make perfect software. Every software developer knows this. If you want to know what I mean, get a Computer Science degree. At my university, almost 80% of CS majors drop out of the major before graduating because it's so difficult. And I live in one of the cities with the most tech jobs that actively seek graduates.

Every 10000 lines of code are almost guaranteed to have a bug no matter how much testing you put into it. According to Wikipedia, Windows Server 2003 has over 50 million lines of code, and that was almost 10 years ago. ME3 likely has somewhere around 10-30 million lines of code in it as well. Bugs are going to happen no matter what they do.


That doesn't mean they aren't going to fix them. Some bugs are never going to be fixed, simply because they don't effect people adversely, and they aren't game-blocking. I'm pretty sure vanguard and rocket glitches will be fixed. Many mutliplayer glitches will be fixed. Lag? That probably won't be fixed. Banshee magnet grabs? Maybe, but they'll likely just lower the grab distance. (It's still affected by your lag to the host).

Many people contribute ideas, like mixed enemies. I've played a mixed enemy mode (the host modified his variables file), and it's not as fun as you guys might think. Enemies don't work well together if they aren't designed for each other. A 'random enemy mix' also would require a considerable amount of work (though it is possible), because currently all waves are hard-coded as values in that file. I'm not saying it's impossible, but changing an entire gameplay mechanic (under the hood) isn't as easy as just writing "new RandomEnemy();". It would require quite a bit of debugging (software developers know how god awful debugging can be).

Though I am sure BioWare appreciates some of the ideas, and some of them still might make it a reality. One of the ones I commonly see are 'more enemies'. As some of you are aware, Zombie Mod was out for some time before it got banned. I never got to play it before it was banned, but the players who made it know how much lag it induces, as well as cripples computers that run it. Anything that cripples performance on Xbox or PS3 consoles is out. On PC it's a bit more acceptable because you have varying computers, but if it cripples the Xbox or PS3, it won't happen because it would be unfair to those players.

Bug fixes for PC are easier to make than consoles, since consoles need certification from their owners (MS/Sony), and you have size limits, and it also costs money to get certification. EA/BioWare might be rich, but I don't think they want to keep paying for incremental updates.

So before you deride BioWare for taking it's time with bug fixes or how they won't add enemies, or change MP, remember that it's not that simple. That's not to say if they never change MP you shouldn't deride them (I'm not saying you should deride them, but you should expect some change in the future... hopefully....)

I'm also not saying you shouldn't post ideas. I 'm sure BioWare reads most of them, and some of them might make the cut. But demanding that BioWare does this, or doesn't do this, is ludacrious. How about you have some strangers come to your job and tell you what to do without any knowledge?

Also, the live updates that they post nearly every week are just memory-patches that override some settings in the variables file. They do not override it (you can tell since the game does not use Administrator rights to overwrite it). They can only change a few varibles here, like gravity, some enemy spawns (Exorcist), ammo boxes (etc). They can't change code (that would need certification).

:innocent:
Also: Read this thread:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/344/index/9948396

Bug Fixes that we know about so far (community):
Ultra Light Mod: http://social.biowar...9221/1#12650482

Modifié par Mgamerz, 12 juillet 2012 - 07:41 .


#2
KiraTsukasa

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Thank you! Somebody that gets it!

#3
waltervolpatto

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+1

#4
RamsenC

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I'm a programmer that has worked in QA and I found the first patch to be a disgrace.

#5
rmccowen

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Not a quite a CS guy, but my undergrad was in electrical engineering, and my first couple of jobs were actually debugging some proprietary corporate software.

The OP is, if anything, politely understating the issues.

#6
Mgamerz

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Not every patch is going to fix every issue. Though the first patch did not fix the Vanguard glitch they said they would fix, but I'm sure it'll get fixed at one point, better sooner than later.

Modifié par Mgamerz, 26 juin 2012 - 05:58 .


#7
RamsenC

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They have to spend $40k each time they patch the game. You think they would at least properly test the bugs they think they fixed before throwing that money away. The ULM bug offends me the most.

#8
Mgamerz

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RamsenC wrote...

They have to spend $40k each time they patch the game. You think they would at least properly test the bugs they think they fixed before throwing that money away. The ULM bug offends me the most.

When users whine endlessly about 'how long it takes', would a proper fix that takes longer or a interim patch that fixes 'some' bugs be better?
Discuss.

#9
Uchimura

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The certification feels like the nail in this case.

#10
RamsenC

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Mgamerz wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

They have to spend $40k each time they patch the game. You think they would at least properly test the bugs they think they fixed before throwing that money away. The ULM bug offends me the most.

When users whine endlessly about 'how long it takes', would a proper fix that takes longer or a interim patch that fixes 'some' bugs be better?
Discuss.


If it costs $40k do it right and let people complain. That patch created more complaints honestly.

#11
rmccowen

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RamsenC wrote...

The ULM bug offends me the most.

I can agree with that much. I wish we knew a little bit more about what the issue was, and how the bugfix-oh-wait-nevermind happened. It seems like cooldown must be calculated separately for the tooltip and in-game, which doesn't make any sense to me--both values should be inherited from the same data structure.

#12
Prawny

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This needs to be stickied, and forced upon all community members!

#13
landylan

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im not a programmer, but even i know that things like bug fixes aren't quick and simple. didnt read most of it, but im glad someone finally isnt dogging them about bugs. i know that bioware is atleast trying to fix them.

#14
xcrunr1647

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waltervolpatto wrote...

+1



#15
Xaijin

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As someone in the games biz, it's not that the bugs exist, but rather:

1. It's that certification makes timely patching absolutely 100% impossible. Literally.

2. The last patch did in fact, not fix a great many things stated by release notes to be fixed.


Consumers tend to hate these things occurring. Whether rational or not, subjective or objective, they hate them, and will use the forums to elaborate their displeasure vociferously.

[$40,000]

It's a bit more than that.

Modifié par Xaijin, 26 juin 2012 - 06:21 .


#16
Homey C-Dawg

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rmccowen wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

The ULM bug offends me the most.

I can agree with that much. I wish we knew a little bit more about what the issue was, and how the bugfix-oh-wait-nevermind happened. It seems like cooldown must be calculated separately for the tooltip and in-game, which doesn't make any sense to me--both values should be inherited from the same data structure.


They aren't though. If you mod any of the ME games very much you quickly notice that Bioware uses some incredibly bloated and innefficient methods. They are also incredibly wasteful with their usage of assets. In other words, their development process was ripped straight out of Hollywood.

Overall I agree with the sentiment that patches are too expensive for Bioware to be wasting their time trying to make it look like they're fixing things that they actually aren't (ULM, Vanguard bug). Anything a patch does or doesn't do will be found out by the community within about 2 hours of release, so they should spend more time making sure that the their patches do everything they say they do.

#17
BjornDaDwarf

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Mgamerz wrote...

When users whine endlessly about 'how long it takes', would a proper fix that takes longer or a interim patch that fixes 'some' bugs be better?
Discuss.


This isn't just about the bugs though, it's also about communication, and the lack thereof at times.  Communication has been improving, but is very spotty or inconsistent regarding some of the problems the game has.  There would be a lot more understanding and far fewer posts about bugs if communication was better.  Certain bugs have never even been acknowledged by Bioware. 

A sticky post simply stating "We are aware of the following issues that MP currently has.  We will update this list as we learn more from the community and from our internal testing.  Please be aware that we are trying to fix as many of these issues as quickly as possible, but patching a multiplatform game as complex as ME3 with SP and MP components is a challenging and resource intensive job.  We appreciate your dedication to our game and look forwarding to continually making it better.  - Signed, Bioware Team"

However, so long as a sticky post like that does not exist, I think the community hcas every right to constantly harp about the problems the game has.  There are people who learn about the bugs every day thanks to this community complaining about them. A sticky post like the one I describe would keep people from wasting a mod slot on ULM.   It would keep players from wasting points on the broken AJ power increase or the CS ammo power.  All that complaining also serves an educational purpose, one that Bioware could take responsibility for, but chooses not to. 

Modifié par BjornDaDwarf, 26 juin 2012 - 06:30 .


#18
Thessair

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Mgamerz wrote...

Very well stated post.


Thank you for writing this. I'm a programmer as well and it gets really frustrating to see people harp on endlessly about how easy it would be to fix this or implement that. There's a lot more going on than just changing a line of code starting with how difficult it can sometimes be to even find that line of code.

#19
justin_sayne1

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Well put. Also, those who are paying attention (and perhaps know a bit about the software development life cycle) can start anticipating both the incremental and larger changes that have been coming. They ARE fixing things, and doing it in a clearly prioritized manner.

#20
Ziegrif

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Seen that bugfixes, programming etc. ain't a cakewalk cause of Elder scrolls. When running a clusterfrak of mods something will break and it takes serious hours to see which mod is conflicting with what and sometimes I still can't bloody figure it out.
These things take time and at some point someone will probably just throw up his hands and say ''screw this if I fix it I break 3 more things! Not touching it with a 10 foot pole!''

#21
ryanshowseason3

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Too bad the topic title won't attract all the community members who "don't get it"

#22
Mgamerz

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ryanshowseason3 wrote...

Too bad the topic title won't attract all the community members who "don't get it"

How 'bout now? :wizard:

To the guy below: 
Perhaps if I put the word OFFICIAL in all caps? :pinched:

Modifié par Mgamerz, 26 juin 2012 - 06:46 .


#23
Thessair

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Mgamerz wrote...

ryanshowseason3 wrote...

Too bad the topic title won't attract all the community members who "don't get it"

How 'bout now? :wizard:


Needs more TC/NERF/HAX/ZOMG :devil:

#24
Javo2357

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Great post. Bump and +1

#25
LeandroBraz

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useful topic. Anyway, I hope they release a new patch soon, maybe with the next DLC.