207 réponses à ce sujet

[SapientesGladio]

Ass

[ErrorTagUnknown]

Fortack wrote...



So when I buy, say, a car and the engine doesn't blow when starting (SEV 1), after driving a couple miles (SEV 2), or the brakes fail (SEV 3), I should be happy and "applaud" the designers? What nonsense is this?

Software is a product and I daresay something like a car or an airplane are WAY more complex to design than a computer game yet nobody is going to accept those products failing miserably on a regular basis. Software quality standards are poor (unfortunately) for obvious reason. That's not something anyone should be happy about. We should be pissed and voice our disappointment so maybe things might improve a little in the future.

Of course software (like everything else) will never be "perfect", but as an industry their standards are below par. I don't like to pay good money to be a quasi beta-tester, sorry.

Also - the engineers making the car / airplane are using fixed components, already designed and certified by other engineers, and putting them together in regular ways - in a largely linear fashion.   Mechanical components --- way different from software - where everything impacts everything else.  I get your frustration - i do.  But code is ugly, and makes a whole lot sense than a mechanical object.  It's essentially the difference between real world physics and intricate, massive boolean math.   Every logic evaluation interacting with each other.  hell man i don't know how to explain it.  they're working on it.  and they're doing largely a good job. 

[xtorma]

Christpuncher wrote...

Fortack wrote...



So when I buy, say, a car and the engine doesn't blow when starting (SEV 1), after driving a couple miles (SEV 2), or the brakes fail (SEV 3), I should be happy and "applaud" the designers? What nonsense is this?

Software is a product and I daresay something like a car or an airplane are WAY more complex to design than a computer game yet nobody is going to accept those products failing miserably on a regular basis. Software quality standards are poor (unfortunately) for obvious reason. That's not something anyone should be happy about. We should be pissed and voice our disappointment so maybe things might improve a little in the future.

Of course software (like everything else) will never be "perfect", but as an industry their standards are below par. I don't like to pay good money to be a quasi beta-tester, sorry.

Also - the engineers making the car / airplane are using fixed components, already designed and certified by other engineers, and putting them together in regular ways - in a largely linear fashion.   Mechanical components --- way different from software - where everything impacts everything else.  I get your frustration - i do.  But code is ugly, and makes a whole lot sense than a mechanical object.  It's essentially the difference between real world physics and intricate, massive boolean math.   Every logic evaluation interacting with each other.  hell man i don't know how to explain it.  they're working on it.  and they're doing largely a good job. 

actually , we have no idea what they are working on.

I never liked the car analogies, but there is one part of it I can get behind. I do not have to be an automotive engineer to know that my car doesn't run correctly, and when a mechanic gets to work on my car to repair it, it is not unreasonable for me to expect the repairs to be done correctly and within a reasonable time frame.

if I get a car , and it has problems that take the dealership months to repair, there is really not a lot I can do about it. If there is no lemon law in my state , then I just have to deal with it. The only power I have , is when it's time to buy a new car. Needless to say, I will not be visiting any dealership with that brand name.

[Bleachrude]

The thing I don't udnerstand is WHY PS3/XBOX requires companies to pay for certification....Don't you ALREADY pay them to get the game on to their system so certification seems like another double dip?

Steam certainly doesn't charge for bug fies (yes, they do charge for new content/DLC but bug fixes/updates? Nope.

[MstrJedi Kyle]

Bleachrude wrote...

The thing I don't udnerstand is WHY PS3/XBOX requires companies to pay for certification....Don't you ALREADY pay them to get the game on to their system so certification seems like another double dip?

Steam certainly doesn't charge for bug fies (yes, they do charge for new content/DLC but bug fixes/updates? Nope.

1. Create gaming console
2. Charge for certification
3. ??????
4. Profit

[ryanshowseason3]

Christpuncher wrote...

man i took a couple years of AP compsci in high school and this stuff should be EASY for bioware to fix. c'mon d00ds.
 

This is the kind of sentiment, I hate to see. You really have no clue until you work in a gigabytes large codebase and try to find and fix bugs. After learning the system for 6 months. The attrition rate on new hires is incredible, a lot of them just aren't up to snuff to handle the complexity outside all the 2000 line college level programs.

[Mgamerz]

DarthKilby wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

The thing I don't udnerstand is WHY PS3/XBOX requires companies to pay for certification....Don't you ALREADY pay them to get the game on to their system so certification seems like another double dip?

Steam certainly doesn't charge for bug fies (yes, they do charge for new content/DLC but bug fixes/updates? Nope.

1. Create gaming console
2. Charge for certification
3. ??????
4. Profit

Cause you know, they have to pay people to test it, and they try to discourage companies from updating every week. Could you imagine if you had to download a patch every week just for the weekly changes? They also need to test it so it doesn't bork the console.
It was like firefox before it switched to silent updating.
And PC is much easier to push patches to since there is very few (if any) rules to pushing out a patch... just guidelines. "Make sure it doens't completely break the game", that kind of stuff. So there is nothing about steam/origin here that matters.

Modifié par Mgamerz, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:22 .

[Mgamerz]

xtorma wrote...

Christpuncher wrote...

Fortack wrote...



So when I buy, say, a car and the engine doesn't blow when starting (SEV 1), after driving a couple miles (SEV 2), or the brakes fail (SEV 3), I should be happy and "applaud" the designers? What nonsense is this?

Software is a product and I daresay something like a car or an airplane are WAY more complex to design than a computer game yet nobody is going to accept those products failing miserably on a regular basis. Software quality standards are poor (unfortunately) for obvious reason. That's not something anyone should be happy about. We should be pissed and voice our disappointment so maybe things might improve a little in the future.

Of course software (like everything else) will never be "perfect", but as an industry their standards are below par. I don't like to pay good money to be a quasi beta-tester, sorry.

Also - the engineers making the car / airplane are using fixed components, already designed and certified by other engineers, and putting them together in regular ways - in a largely linear fashion.   Mechanical components --- way different from software - where everything impacts everything else.  I get your frustration - i do.  But code is ugly, and makes a whole lot sense than a mechanical object.  It's essentially the difference between real world physics and intricate, massive boolean math.   Every logic evaluation interacting with each other.  hell man i don't know how to explain it.  they're working on it.  and they're doing largely a good job. 

actually , we have no idea what they are working on.

I never liked the car analogies, but there is one part of it I can get behind. I do not have to be an automotive engineer to know that my car doesn't run correctly, and when a mechanic gets to work on my car to repair it, it is not unreasonable for me to expect the repairs to be done correctly and within a reasonable time frame.

if I get a car , and it has problems that take the dealership months to repair, there is really not a lot I can do about it. If there is no lemon law in my state , then I just have to deal with it. The only power I have , is when it's time to buy a new car. Needless to say, I will not be visiting any dealership with that brand name.

Except for you know, the part where you aren't paying for them to work on your vehicle (or very tiny amounts - theres a good chance at most you didn't even pay a programmer for an hour of his wage), and if you don't know about "recalls", then you're using the wrong analogy.
Programs don't just "break" (well... windows... <_<).

[DSxCallOfBooty-]

SapientesGladio wrote...

Ass

Well put.

[lastofthefive0s]

There is also this to consider: (from the XBOX 360 Publisher License Agreement)

All Title Updates for Software Titles are subject to approval by Microsoft. Publisher may release one Title Update per Software Title free of charge. Any additional Title Updates proposed by Publisher may be subject to a reasonable charge.

So if you get one free Title update per game, better make sure that you can get all the fixes you need into it so you don't have to pay an arm and a leg for another one down the road!

[Mgamerz]

That might only apply to paid DLC. As in, you can't have loads of free DLC hosted on their servers. MS might make a cut of the MP profits from Xbox.

[xtorma]

Mgamerz wrote...

xtorma wrote...

Christpuncher wrote...

Fortack wrote...



So when I buy, say, a car and the engine doesn't blow when starting (SEV 1), after driving a couple miles (SEV 2), or the brakes fail (SEV 3), I should be happy and "applaud" the designers? What nonsense is this?

Software is a product and I daresay something like a car or an airplane are WAY more complex to design than a computer game yet nobody is going to accept those products failing miserably on a regular basis. Software quality standards are poor (unfortunately) for obvious reason. That's not something anyone should be happy about. We should be pissed and voice our disappointment so maybe things might improve a little in the future.

Of course software (like everything else) will never be "perfect", but as an industry their standards are below par. I don't like to pay good money to be a quasi beta-tester, sorry.

Also - the engineers making the car / airplane are using fixed components, already designed and certified by other engineers, and putting them together in regular ways - in a largely linear fashion.   Mechanical components --- way different from software - where everything impacts everything else.  I get your frustration - i do.  But code is ugly, and makes a whole lot sense than a mechanical object.  It's essentially the difference between real world physics and intricate, massive boolean math.   Every logic evaluation interacting with each other.  hell man i don't know how to explain it.  they're working on it.  and they're doing largely a good job. 

actually , we have no idea what they are working on.

I never liked the car analogies, but there is one part of it I can get behind. I do not have to be an automotive engineer to know that my car doesn't run correctly, and when a mechanic gets to work on my car to repair it, it is not unreasonable for me to expect the repairs to be done correctly and within a reasonable time frame.

if I get a car , and it has problems that take the dealership months to repair, there is really not a lot I can do about it. If there is no lemon law in my state , then I just have to deal with it. The only power I have , is when it's time to buy a new car. Needless to say, I will not be visiting any dealership with that brand name.

Except for you know, the part where you aren't paying for them to work on your vehicle (or very tiny amounts - theres a good chance at most you didn't even pay a programmer for an hour of his wage), and if you don't know about "recalls", then you're using the wrong analogy.
Programs don't just "break" (well... windows... <_<).

Honestly , it doesn't really matter either way. At this point, all i know is that things are not being done. There is no communication telling me what is being worked on. I have no idea whether they are working on nothing, or everything. I only have one example of how they handle patches to base any opinion of thier competency on. As I stated before, the money for this game is now gone. I will never see it again. I have no rights , and no power to effect change. 

The only power consumers have , and have ever had is the power to buy or not to buy. How a product  performs, and how mistakes are handled have a direct effect on when and how they  use that power. 
 

[lastofthefive0s]

xtorma wrote...

Honestly , it doesn't really matter either way. At this point, all i know is that things are not being done. There is no communication telling me what is being worked on. I have no idea whether they are working on nothing, or everything. I only have one example of how they handle patches to base any opinion of thier competency on. As I stated before, the money for this game is now gone. I will never see it again. I have no rights , and no power to effect change. 

The only power consumers have , and have ever had is the power to buy or not to buy. How a product  performs, and how mistakes are handled have a direct effect on when and how they  use that power. 

Just curious, but how do you handle patches and updates to your preferred OS?  Do you go on it's forums and ask when the next Service Pack will be?  How about anti-virus updates?  Spend time on their support section trying to find out what virus defintions they are working on and when they'll be put out?

Since the dawn of videogames, there have been bugs and glitches, ranging in severity from amusing to completely game-ending.  Thankfully none of the game-enders seem to be present in Mass Effect 3 but there are some rather annoying ones but on a whole, I think their QA department did a pretty fair job considering this was the first time that multiplayer was brought to the Mass Effect universe.  Is it perfect?  No.  Will it ever be perfect?  Probably not.  But if you're going to sit around and wait for it to become perfect, you'll be waiting for a long, long time.

Check out your favorite search engine for some game glitches, you might even find some from *gasp* major gaming companies! {sarcasm}OMG, how could that happen?  I thought only Bioware put out games with bugs and glitches in it!!!{/sarcasm}

{Edit}BTW: A long awaited and popular game that came out in November of last year has had 7 bug/quest fixes so far and one of them introduced multiple bugs that weren't present beforehand and had to be fixed in a subsequent patch...which still didn't fix all the bugs and glitches in the game so there have been at least 3 additional patches since then.{/edit}

Modifié par lastofthefive0s, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:30 .

[IllusiveManJr]

lastofthefive0s wrote...

Since the dawn of videogames, there have been bugs and glitches, ranging in severity from amusing to completely game-ending.  Thankfully none of the game-enders seem to be present in Mass Effect 3

My female Engineer Shep playthrough that's permanently broken would disagree with that statement. Thankfully this glitch hasn't happened in for any of my other characters. I will agree that Bioware is good about weeding out game-ending glitches. Much better than say... Bethesda (Fallout 3, Skyrim, Oblivion to name a few)

Modifié par theillusiveman11, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:29 .

[lastofthefive0s]

theillusiveman11 wrote...

lastofthefive0s wrote...

Since the dawn of videogames, there have been bugs and glitches, ranging in severity from amusing to completely game-ending.  Thankfully none of the game-enders seem to be present in Mass Effect 3

My female Engineer Shep playthrough that's permanently broken would disagree with that statement. Thankfully this glitch hasn't happened in for any of my other characters. I will agree that Bioware is good about weeding out game-ending glitches. Much better than say... Bethesda (Fallout 3, Skyrim, Oblivion to name a few)

I haven't played with a female Shepard Engineer, so I wouldn't have any knowledge of that particular bug.  Is there a post about it on here so I could read about it?

[IllusiveManJr]

lastofthefive0s wrote...

theillusiveman11 wrote...

lastofthefive0s wrote...

Since the dawn of videogames, there have been bugs and glitches, ranging in severity from amusing to completely game-ending.  Thankfully none of the game-enders seem to be present in Mass Effect 3

My female Engineer Shep playthrough that's permanently broken would disagree with that statement. Thankfully this glitch hasn't happened in for any of my other characters. I will agree that Bioware is good about weeding out game-ending glitches. Much better than say... Bethesda (Fallout 3, Skyrim, Oblivion to name a few)

I haven't played with a female Shepard Engineer, so I wouldn't have any knowledge of that particular bug.  Is there a post about it on here so I could read about it?

The synch laser on Rannoch wouldn't fire. I tried everything to bypass it. I reloaded countless saves trying to do everything differently on that mission. Then tried reloading earlier saves. I even went so far as to reload my save back on Earth and replay it up to that part. Still wouldn't work. It was frustrating. But thankfully I've never encountered it across any of my other playthroughs.

[Kasrkin]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

I think Mgamerz and Ninja Stan have a good understand of most of the challenges faced. Of course there is more to picture that can't be discussed for various reasons.

I can say we do have a list of issues, we do watch the forums. Oh and we do play our own game, have I personally seen issues called out, yes. There has been attempts to try and catalog everything that people have noted. The more places we as employees have information written the more places information is to get lost. That is why we have our own internal bug tracking methods and we include forum information in them. Every fan made attempt (that I have seen) to maintain a list has not lasted more than 2 weeks from the difficulty it is to verify things etc.

Another note, especially about multiplayer is user style testing needs 4 people and then as Ninja Stan mentioned there is a ton of questions. Is this something that just came up in the last patch, has it been there since ship, does it occur only after extended play, does it only happen on a certain platform etc.

Oh and yes I am QA

Well.  The Xbox bugs thread is still on the first page, in the platform specific forum.  Several of those bugs are MP based. 

/edit:  Link, for truth and justice.  This thread is three months old.
Xbox Platform Tech Thread

Modifié par Kasrkin, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:00 .

[samb]

 I just don't buy the whole: "it's really hard to program" argument. So what?  You signed up for the job, now you do it. It's that simple. Being a doctor is really hard and we still sue them when they mess up. We go to the clinic expecting them to know their basic science, to be up to date on the most recent treatment options and medications etc. the same for this game. We expect that vanguards will charge correctly, and we were told they would. 

The OP says he's not trying to be condescending, but then says something to the effect: "go get a compsci degree and tell me if it is easy". How would you feel if your doctor told you that?  Yeah thought so. 

No programming is not easy, but it's your job. Do it. 

[-Sxx-]

You get paid, you've got a professional job for something you should be professional and skilled in, you should know what your doing. Just like ANY OTHER program or job. You get used to it, you know it, you know what you're doing and by the time you should be in a professional position, you should be confident and swift (to an extent). Not to mention yet again, you're getting paid. Paid to do a proper job, you should be able to prevent more bugs appearing after 'fixing' (ULM anyone?) some already. It's common sense. Almost comes across as lazy if you don't check for further bugs before releasing more content to the public.

Simple as.

I wonder if anyone's been booted or given a warning for failing to patch bugs and glitches effectively. 

Modifié par Dest1ny, 05 juillet 2012 - 12:13 .

[samb]

Dest1ny wrote...

You get paid, you've got a professional job for something you should be professional and skilled in, you should know what your doing. Just like ANY OTHER program or job. You get used to it, you know it, you know what you're doing and by the time you should be in a professional position, you should be confident and swift (to an extent). Not to mention yet again, you're getting paid. Paid to do a proper job, you should be able to prevent more bugs appearing after 'fixing' (ULM anyone?) some already. It's common sense. Almost comes across as lazy if you don't check for further bugs before releasing more content to the public.

Simple as.

I wonder if anyone's been booted or given a warning for failing to patch bugs and glitches effectively. 

Oh yeah, let's not forget the last patch that was supposed to fix major bugs like the vanguard glitch and ULM. This isn't even implementing new features, they can't get the original right. Sure it's a lot of code, but after 4 months and one failed patch, one really has to wonder if the programmers really know what they are doing. 

[Mgamerz]

Except coding isnt like being a surgeon.
You clearly misunderstand programming if you beleive you can master it like a doctor. There is no book of how vanguard code works. There is no textbooks for abstract ideas implemented in code.
And you know what? I dont tell my doctor what to do. Half of this forum thinks BioWare sould just bend over to their will.

Modifié par Mgamerz, 05 juillet 2012 - 05:06 .

[samb]

Mgamerz wrote...

Except coding isnt like being a surgeon.
You clearly misunderstand programming if you beleive you can master it like a doctor.
And you know what? I dont tell my doctor what to do. Half of this forum thinks BioWare sould just bend over to their will.

No becoming a doctor isn't the same as becoming a programmer, the expectations are though. Both are expected to do their (demanding) job. That's it.
I concede your point on this community demanding things though. However, when they say they will fix it and not deliver we have a right to demand they live up to that promise. Did you forget all the glitches they promised to fix in the last patch?  Making that request is perfectly reasonable considering they said they would (and didn't). 

[Mgamerz]

There is more than one way for a bug to be triggered. It could have been fixed to some degree but then cropped up as they ran out of time. They dont get to test as extensively as the commnity does.
Though they should have at least publically acknowledged they made a mistake listing they were fixed. It would suck to be the person who writes it, but at least it would be owning up to it. Programmers are humans too, they make mistakes. Now for the endings... well, I'll save that for another thread.

Modifié par Mgamerz, 05 juillet 2012 - 05:16 .

[samb]

Yes, I get it, it's a complex mess. But one that the coders should have been qualified to fix. They should have tested it, made sure it worked as intended. And they did not own up to it. I have not heard anything about fixing the glitches that have been there since launch.
At what point do we say "BW should be more on top of this" rather than make excuses like "well programming is really hard you know"? The vanguard glitch has basically broken the class, and no word on if this is being looked into. The patch notes said it was fixed, it wasn't. All I see is BW acting like that patch fixed things and feel no need to look into it further.
Saying programming is hard is just an excuse. They are professionals. Either fix the problem or own up to your mistake. BW has done neither.

[Kataigida]

samb wrote...

Yes, I get it, it's a complex mess. But one that the coders should have been qualified to fix. They should have tested it, made sure it worked as intended. And they did not own up to it. I have not heard anything about fixing the glitches that have been there since launch.
At what point do we say "BW should be more on top of this" rather than make excuses like "well programming is really hard you know"? The vanguard glitch has basically broken the class, and no word on if this is being looked into. The patch notes said it was fixed, it wasn't. All I see is BW acting like that patch fixed things and feel no need to look into it further.
Saying programming is hard is just an excuse. They are professionals. Either fix the problem or own up to your mistake. BW has done neither.

BW has been working on these issues since they have first been discovered, and they have been trying to impliment ways of fixing the bugs in the game.

Take the vangaurd glitch, which you seem to be fond of saying shouldn't be hard to fix. You have to consider the fact that Charge alone is a complex mechanic, the ability itself takes about a second and a half to play out, in the mean time the power has to 'remove' the character from the game, while tracking the target, and then have the player reappear in front of the target, while also dealing damage and exhibiting force that staggers enemies. Oh, and I almost forgot that it also restores shields. That's a fair amount of coding, most of which was done all the way back in ME2, which probably had a different set of designers than the ME3 multiplayer, which is a seperate (and smaller I believe) group from the ME3 SP team.

I am pretty sure Charge was NEVER intended for online use, and I am personally surprised that they put it into the multiplayer. The main problem is that there is NO PROBLEM in the lines of codes that causes the vanguard glitch. Instead, it is caused by lag in almost every scenario (even hosts can lag and glitch). Lag isn't something that you can just 'fix,' and it affects more than just vangaurds. Snipers can't line up shots, explosive weapons fire blanks, techie/biotic powers 'hit' the target, but don't play through the animation or do damage, all of that isn't programming problems, it's problems caused by lag, which disrupts the sequence of codes and prevents them from reaching the proper conclusion. In the case of the vanguard glitch, it breaks the targetting boundries, and in some cases can force a 'charge loop' that will either put the Vanguard in a position off of the map in which they can no longer use the charge coding, or they warp around the map erratically and without control.

In order to fix something like that, you'd have to somehow find a way to create programming that would not be distrubed by lag, dispite the fact that the power takes a couple of seconds to fully play out. I doubt that the vanguard glitch will ever be fully removed from the game, unless someone can somehow manage to get rid of lag.

As for other problems, like the host exploit or rocket glitches, BW has been trying to fix these problems, but they require a fair amount of coding that can't be fixed by weekly balance changes. Only patches are able to change enough coding to work it properly, and BW can't just pass those out all willey-nilley. Mods have said as much before, though I don't remember who specifically and where. And I don't know where you are getting this idea that they aren't owning up to their mistakes...they realize that there are problems in the code in some places, but a lot of the problems aren't their faults, and if they really didn't care, they wouldn't be wasting their time trying to fix these things for us.