207 réponses à ce sujet

[GroverA125]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

I think Mgamerz and Ninja Stan have a good understand of most of the challenges faced. Of course there is more to picture that can't be discussed for various reasons.

I can say we do have a list of issues, we do watch the forums. Oh and we do play our own game, have I personally seen issues called out, yes. There has been attempts to try and catalog everything that people have noted. The more places we as employees have information written the more places information is to get lost. That is why we have our own internal bug tracking methods and we include forum information in them. Every fan made attempt (that I have seen) to maintain a list has not lasted more than 2 weeks from the difficulty it is to verify things etc.

Another note, especially about multiplayer is user style testing needs 4 people and then as Ninja Stan mentioned there is a ton of questions. Is this something that just came up in the last patch, has it been there since ship, does it occur only after extended play, does it only happen on a certain platform etc.

Oh and yes I am QA

Out of sheer morbid curiosity Bryan, you got an ETA for the next patch and anything notable being worked on?

[samb]

Kataigida wrote....

Take the vangaurd glitch, which you seem to be fond of saying shouldn't be hard to fix.  
[other technical stuff]

Please don't misquote me. I never said it was easy, other that "it is hard" is not an excuse.  I'm sure it is hard and I don't understand anything about programming but "it's hard" is just an excuse that should not be used by professionals who are getting paid to to it. 
If a surgeon complained to you about how tough it is being a surgeon, keeping track of all that anatomy, the surgical tools, the pressure of making life or death decisions and all the learning they had to go through. You would likely point out he was still making half a million a year and to suck it up.  Why is programming any different?  

[lastofthefive0s]

samb wrote...

Kataigida wrote....

Take the vangaurd glitch, which you seem to be fond of saying shouldn't be hard to fix.  
[other technical stuff]

Please don't misquote me. I never said it was easy, other that "it is hard" is not an excuse.  I'm sure it is hard and I don't understand anything about programming but "it's hard" is just an excuse that should not be used by professionals who are getting paid to to it. 
If a surgeon complained to you about how tough it is being a surgeon, keeping track of all that anatomy, the surgical tools, the pressure of making life or death decisions and all the learning they had to go through. You would likely point out he was still making half a million a year and to suck it up.  Why is programming any different?  

I underlined and bolded the answer to your last question.

[ryanshowseason3]

samb wrote...

Kataigida wrote....

Take the vangaurd glitch, which you seem to be fond of saying shouldn't be hard to fix.  
[other technical stuff]

Please don't misquote me. I never said it was easy, other that "it is hard" is not an excuse.  I'm sure it is hard and I don't understand anything about programming but "it's hard" is just an excuse that should not be used by professionals who are getting paid to to it. 
If a surgeon complained to you about how tough it is being a surgeon, keeping track of all that anatomy, the surgical tools, the pressure of making life or death decisions and all the learning they had to go through. You would likely point out he was still making half a million a year and to suck it up.  Why is programming any different?  

     Comparing programming to a doctor is a laughable example. A lot of Doctors are finely focused on one section of the human anatomy. Heart surgeons, cosmetic surgeons, brain surgeons etc. On top of this human anatomy stays pretty static All hearts work in the same manner, same veins same mechanism to make it pump and go. If you look at it in this sense your mechanic has a harder time with different cars and models of cars. Doctors are paid to be precise and exact and keep you alive. The tools, treatments and drugs may change but anatomy largely doesn't although the causes and symptoms vary wildly we know how the body is supposed to work. Memorizing what drugs are appropriate sounds like the harder part to me.

     They aren't paid to work with a different species with exact accuracy every day. Thats what a programmer is up against in equivalency. We have no prior knowledge of the systems we are going to have to fix, doctors have 8 years to memorize the one system they'll be fixing. So you can imagine that we might not get it right everytime huh? Unless we'd been working with that system for 8+ years AND the way it is supposed to work didn't change. The latter is a laughable prospect. Each game is practically a new species to work on even if the mechanics are mostly the same. ME 1 2 and 3 are all wildly different underneath the hood I'd imagine.

     The variety of "anatomies" we deal with are staggering. I could be working on speeding up camera data transmission times now and after lunch integrating a statistical GUI. Two completely different sections of the program's anatomy, an anatomy that doesn't have any textbooks on it, so I have to figure out how it is supposed to work from scratch and then make sure it keeps working that way when I'm done.

     Also I have to make sure my changes to this piece of anatomy did not effect other pieces of the anatomy as well, all of these pieces I did not make myself either. To completely determine I didn't break anything else would literally take weeks so we test what is directly effected by this piece of the anatomy and hope for the best. Users later may find something wrong and it happened because of my fix and we go from there.

     Also lets not forget that the same problem may have multiple places that may have caused it. Say your wheelie chair doesn't roll anymore. You look down and see the wheel is not attached, you reconnect it, roll for a while thinking everything is fine once more, then later you start to realize you're not rolling as easily anymore and further inspect another wheel to find gum mucking it up. That is what I believe is going on with the vanguard glitch, there are multiple ways for it to happen, you fix one without knowing there is a second still there. It happens to doctors as well too.

     It would be nice to have more communication with what they are working on, but I get it also that they are busy working on it and not busy communicating with us what is at the top of thier priority. Not to mention no matter what they said was at the top of the priority some dolt would think something else is more important than what they are working on ( lol extraction bug on jade is more important than game freezes lol! ). Thank god no one dies from the kind of changes we have to make.

     Proffesional does not mean fixed on the first try.

edit: added indents. proper code is indented.

Modifié par ryanshowseason3, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:11 .

[samb]

To the people that agree with the OP, I ask you this: if your boss gave you an assignment and a deadline, would you tell him it's too difficult or would just do it because it's your job? For your sake I hope it's the latter because you won't keep your job if it's the former.

How many of you have jobs? Or are you all still in University? That's how the real world works. Complaining and making yourself excuses will get you fired. Saying "do you know how hard this is for" indicates you are not qualified and/or have poor work ethics. Bioware isn't making excuses for themselves and you shouldn't either.

[Mgamerz]

lastofthefive0s wrote...

samb wrote...

Kataigida wrote....

Take the vangaurd glitch, which you seem to be fond of saying shouldn't be hard to fix.  
[other technical stuff]

Please don't misquote me. I never said it was easy, other that "it is hard" is not an excuse.  I'm sure it is hard and I don't understand anything about programming but "it's hard" is just an excuse that should not be used by professionals who are getting paid to to it. 
If a surgeon complained to you about how tough it is being a surgeon, keeping track of all that anatomy, the surgical tools, the pressure of making life or death decisions and all the learning they had to go through. You would likely point out he was still making half a million a year and to suck it up.  Why is programming any different?  

I underlined and bolded the answer to your last question.

^This
You also don't have teams in surgery that often. "Oh, I just did this surgery on his leg, did x and y to it (and details in a report)". PRogramming means that tens/hundreds of people are all making parts that (hopefully) have defined interface to work with parts others are making - more often than not they'll have to sand down the interfaces so they work as intended. When they work as a team like this, if one person's doesn't behave like another expected, it doesn't work, but it could be subtle enough to fly under the radar. Code is a heirarchy. If a tiny part doesn't work, it can cascade. It's the same with websites that go down, program that crash... etc.
This game does an exceptional job of Exception handling. (wow, what a pun!)
Also, your 'if its too hard you're not good enough' statement doesn't work. Use a person who is launching a rocket - you can't just fire someone 'if it doesn't work yet'. Would you rather they put out a half baked game instead?

Modifié par Mgamerz, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:06 .

[xtorma]

I don't know. I am trying to understand , but four months is a long time.

[twiffer]

elPrimoFilipino wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

Mgamerz wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

I've done enough work with software to know that it isn't that hard to fix most bugs. The issue is play-testing to avoid introducing new bugs, and certification. All that said, the game being as buggy as it currently is three and a half months after release is nothing but a joke.

You haven't played Bethesda games then, heh.

Of course I have.  And the point I was making would apply to them just as much as Bioware.  Some designers just have serious QA issues.  That isn't a reason to accept such a thing in general.

Don't want to derail the thread, but why are Bethesda's games so buggy?  It's their hallmark now.  Short answer would be great.

Great thread by the way.

games such as the elder scrolls series are incredibaly complex and simply put, can never be fully QA tested because you just can't anticipate everything the players are going to do; particularly when you give them free reign do nearly anything they want. many of the bugs happen because of prior actions; say if you pause just before heading off to fight alduin and embark on a crusade to slaughter every chicken in skyrim, you might trigger a game breaking bug that traps you in sovengarde when you pick up that quest again (as a hypothetical example). 

[dysturbed0ne]

samb wrote...

To the people that agree with the OP, I ask you this: if your boss gave you an assignment and a deadline, would you tell him it's too difficult or would just do it because it's your job? For your sake I hope it's the latter because you won't keep your job if it's the former.

How many of you have jobs? Or are you all still in University? That's how the real world works. Complaining and making yourself excuses will get you fired. Saying "do you know how hard this is for" indicates you are not qualified and/or have poor work ethics. Bioware isn't making excuses for themselves and you shouldn't either.

I haven't heard of a recent wave of firings at BW, so I assume THEIR boss is pleased with their performance.

If BW would not have added MP to this game we all would have still paid exactly what we paid for it. I look at the MP as bonus content, as should everyone else, given the previous sentence. The SP was amazingly bug free compared to the last few big name games I have played, so I find it hard to complain about to BW about annoyances in the MP.

I am no programmer, so I can't give any insight into what it takes to fix anything, but the level of entitlement of people never ceases to amaze me.

[samb]

Mgamerz wrote...

Kataigida wrote....
I underlined and bolded the answer to your last question.

^This
You also don't have teams in surgery that often. "Oh, I just did this surgery on his leg, did x and y to it (and details in a report)". PRogramming means that tens/hundreds of people are all making parts that (hopefully) have defined interface to work with parts others are making - more often than not they'll have to sand down the interfaces so they work as intended. When they work as a team like this, if one person's doesn't behave like another expected, it doesn't work, but it could be subtle enough to fly under the radar. Code is a heirarchy. If a tiny part doesn't work, it can cascade. It's the same with websites that go down, program that crash... etc.
This game does an exceptional job of Exception handling. (wow, what a pun!)

Look I never pretended to know what anything about programming, and shouldn't about medicine. Mainly because it is irrelavant.  You were paid to do a job, you do it. It's that simple. 
And just for reference, a surgeon does have this thing called a surgical team. They also have to work with other specialists like the radiologist, the internist etc.  all of that is off topic. I was trying to illustrate that having a demanding job is no excuse. 
If you feel programmers are somehow the exception to this basic expectation you need to say why, not belabor on how hard it is. Because so far that is all you are doing. 

Modifié par samb, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:31 .

[samb]

dysturbed0ne wrote...
I haven't heard of a recent wave of firings at BW, so I assume THEIR boss is pleased with their performance.

If BW would not have added MP to this game we all would have still paid exactly what we paid for it. I look at the MP as bonus content, as should everyone else, given the previous sentence. The SP was amazingly bug free compared to the last few big name games I have played, so I find it hard to complain about to BW about annoyances in the MP.

I am no programmer, so I can't give any insight into what it takes to fix anything, but the level of entitlement of people never ceases to amaze me.

Like I said before, Bioware isn't making any excuses for themselves and we should not either. The last patch mainly fixed most single player bugs, so in that regard BW did a good job. I am not trying to diss the BW staff, I just take exception to the attitude that having a tough job means you can do a sloppy one. I don't think it is an attitude that BW has but one that the OP seems to endorse. 

[Mgamerz]

samb wrote...

Mgamerz wrote...

Kataigida wrote....
I underlined and bolded the answer to your last question.

^This
You also don't have teams in surgery that often. "Oh, I just did this surgery on his leg, did x and y to it (and details in a report)". PRogramming means that tens/hundreds of people are all making parts that (hopefully) have defined interface to work with parts others are making - more often than not they'll have to sand down the interfaces so they work as intended. When they work as a team like this, if one person's doesn't behave like another expected, it doesn't work, but it could be subtle enough to fly under the radar. Code is a heirarchy. If a tiny part doesn't work, it can cascade. It's the same with websites that go down, program that crash... etc.
This game does an exceptional job of Exception handling. (wow, what a pun!)

Look I never pretended to know what anything about programming, and shouldn't about medicine. Mainly because it is irrelavant.  You were paid to do a job, you do it. It's that simple. 
And just for reference, a surgeon does have this thing called a surgical team. They also have to work with other specialists like the radiologist, the internist etc.  all of that is off topic. I was trying to illustrate that having a demanding job is no excuse. 
If you feel programmers are somehow the exception to this basic expectation you need to say why, not belabor on how hard it is. Because so far that is all you are doing. 

BioWare doesn't need an excuse. They've already sold you the product - they don't have to support it at all.
Programming isn't a science. You can't learn 'how to program' and make games or develop an OS. Programming is a science that is continously changing and you will make mistakes, and somethings just can't be done. Since you know nothing about programming, it's hard to convey this. At my university, over 80% of people who go into a CS degree never finish it because it is just too damn difficult. For some of my projects, we have been given 2 weeks to do it, and every extra moment of the days I have I spend debugging (those f**kers...) the program. I've had to turn in programs that I've worked on with a team because over 10 files and 10000 lines of code, I can't seem to figure out what the problem is.
With BioWare, you have QA working with the engineers that designed the part that is "supposedly" failing (bugged). I have a feeling their code is a bit longer than my statistical analysis' in C.
Beleive me... If I tried to explain to you what a pointer is (programming is full of them), it'd take me like 20 pages to write it in an understandable manner that made sense (not just a summary of it).
I'm not making excuses for BioWare either. But nobody understands it's difficult and they DEMAND that patches be issued NOW. It'd be the same if I came to your job/desk/whateveryoudo and yelled over your shoulder to GET IT DONE. GET IT DONE NOW! all the time.

Modifié par Mgamerz, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:43 .

[lastofthefive0s]

samb wrote...

Mgamerz wrote...

Kataigida wrote....
I underlined and bolded the answer to your last question.

^This
You also don't have teams in surgery that often. "Oh, I just did this surgery on his leg, did x and y to it (and details in a report)". PRogramming means that tens/hundreds of people are all making parts that (hopefully) have defined interface to work with parts others are making - more often than not they'll have to sand down the interfaces so they work as intended. When they work as a team like this, if one person's doesn't behave like another expected, it doesn't work, but it could be subtle enough to fly under the radar. Code is a heirarchy. If a tiny part doesn't work, it can cascade. It's the same with websites that go down, program that crash... etc.
This game does an exceptional job of Exception handling. (wow, what a pun!)

Look I never pretended to know what anything about programming, and shouldn't about medicine. Mainly because it is irrelavant.  You were paid to do a job, you do it. It's that simple. 
And just for reference, a surgeon does have this thing called a surgical team. They also have to work with other specialists like the radiologist, the internist etc.  all of that is off topic. I was trying to illustrate that having a demanding job is no excuse. 
If you feel programmers are somehow the exception to this basic expectation you need to say why, not belabor on how hard it is. Because so far that is all you are doing. 

If you're going to start deleting stuff when you quote from a previous post, at least make sure that the quote is attributed to the correct person.  I'm the one who said "I underlined and bolded the answer to your last question", not Kataigida.  Maybe you need to debug your delete key, since it magically altered my quote.

You're lack of understanding of the basic intricacies of massive amounts of programming is the problem here.  Many bugs/glitches can have multiple causes.  Tracking them all down and fixing all them is a complex and time consuming task.  And consider that once the game shipped, most of the development team was probably moved onto the next project/game that Bioware is working on, leaving just a skelton crew to handle any post-release problems with the game.  There is only so much time in the day to deal with those.  Add in the fact that your dealing with a game that not only runs on consoles (Xbox, PS3 and soon Wii U) but also various hardware configurations found in the hundreds of thousands of computers out there, then you might understand that it's not just as easy as you think it should be.

Also figure in the time it takes to test the proposed patch.  Then the time it takes to submit it to Sony and Microsoft (and soon Nintendo) so that they can do their own testing to make sure it doesn't break anything in the console.  If any of them have a problem with the patch, it goes back to the drawing board.  Oh and don't forget, your company gets charged each time you submit a patch to the "Big Three", even if it doesn't pass their internal testing, and you have to pay again when you're ready to resubmit.  Microsoft doesn't charge to host the first "Title Update"  to a game, but each subsequent patch is subject to a hosting fee.  I can't imagine it being much different at Sony or Nintendo.  So it comes down to trying to fix as many bugs/glitches as possible, with the fewest number of patches in the quickest amount of time and hoping for the best that the ones that aren't caught and fixed don't effect a large part of your user base.

So, yeah....it's not so easy or inexpensive as you might like to think it is.

[Mgamerz]

lastofthefive0s wrote...

samb wrote...

Mgamerz wrote...

Kataigida wrote....
I underlined and bolded the answer to your last question.

^This
You also don't have teams in surgery that often. "Oh, I just did this surgery on his leg, did x and y to it (and details in a report)". PRogramming means that tens/hundreds of people are all making parts that (hopefully) have defined interface to work with parts others are making - more often than not they'll have to sand down the interfaces so they work as intended. When they work as a team like this, if one person's doesn't behave like another expected, it doesn't work, but it could be subtle enough to fly under the radar. Code is a heirarchy. If a tiny part doesn't work, it can cascade. It's the same with websites that go down, program that crash... etc.
This game does an exceptional job of Exception handling. (wow, what a pun!)

Look I never pretended to know what anything about programming, and shouldn't about medicine. Mainly because it is irrelavant.  You were paid to do a job, you do it. It's that simple. 
And just for reference, a surgeon does have this thing called a surgical team. They also have to work with other specialists like the radiologist, the internist etc.  all of that is off topic. I was trying to illustrate that having a demanding job is no excuse. 
If you feel programmers are somehow the exception to this basic expectation you need to say why, not belabor on how hard it is. Because so far that is all you are doing. 

If you're going to start deleting stuff when you quote from a previous post, at least make sure that the quote is attributed to the correct person.  I'm the one who said "I underlined and bolded the answer to your last question", not Kataigida.  Maybe you need to debug your delete key, since it magically altered my quote.

You're lack of understanding of the basic intricacies of massive amounts of programming is the problem here.  Many bugs/glitches can have multiple causes.  Tracking them all down and fixing all them is a complex and time consuming task.  And consider that once the game shipped, most of the development team was probably moved onto the next project/game that Bioware is working on, leaving just a skelton crew to handle any post-release problems with the game.  There is only so much time in the day to deal with those.  Add in the fact that your dealing with a game that not only runs on consoles (Xbox, PS3 and soon Wii U) but also various hardware configurations found in the hundreds of thousands of computers out there, then you might understand that it's not just as easy as you think it should be.

Also figure in the time it takes to test the proposed patch.  Then the time it takes to submit it to Sony and Microsoft (and soon Nintendo) so that they can do their own testing to make sure it doesn't break anything in the console.  If any of them have a problem with the patch, it goes back to the drawing board.  Oh and don't forget, your company gets charged each time you submit a patch to the "Big Three", even if it doesn't pass their internal testing, and you have to pay again when you're ready to resubmit.  Microsoft doesn't charge to host the first "Title Update"  to a game, but each subsequent patch is subject to a hosting fee.  I can't imagine it being much different at Sony or Nintendo.  So it comes down to trying to fix as many bugs/glitches as possible, with the fewest number of patches in the quickest amount of time and hoping for the best that the ones that aren't caught and fixed don't effect a large part of your user base.

So, yeah....it's not so easy or inexpensive as you might like to think it is.

Nintendo and patches? hah!
All laughs aside, I updated the OP with staff members posts about fixed bug fixes for the next patch. Anyone who finds any posts from staff members that state a bug has been fixed, please send me a PM or post here and I'll add it to the OP.
Also, not sure if the post I quoted is who he is referring to...

Modifié par Mgamerz, 05 juillet 2012 - 05:20 .

[superligerzero]

When I play human male soldier with a hornet and a talon the talon disappears from his side when using the hornet. Could you add this to you bugs list.

[IllusiveManJr]

lastofthefive0s wrote...

and soon Wii U

You had me thinking they were going to release a patch to fix some of Skyward Sword's bugs until I saw this part. I was excited too.

[staindgrey]

While the OP has shed some light on an issue of which most of us are completely ignorant (thank you for that), I think people's complaints should also be shone in a slightly different light.

No game is without bugs. That's entirely true. BUT not all games are equal in that regard, either. ME3 is a blockbuster AAA title, the end of a high selling trilogy, funded by corporate giant EA. People have very high expectations accordingly, and as such, EA/Bioware should take extra care when developing and maintaining the product. While some fans' expectations are unrealistically high, others are simply expecting what's to be expected when paying for a premier, highly marketed title. There's a line somewhere between expecting the best EA has to offer and expecting better than anyone can humanly offer.

I play plenty of games, not just Bioware ones. Some games are almost entirely glitch free. I know of every single nook and cranny in Resident Evil 5, and while there are some very minor exploits, the game is unbelievably clean. None of the game's exploits are game-breaking, and in Versus, any exploit is used entirely for the learning curve; there is nothing even reasonably close in nature to the rocket glitch or vanguard glitch, and that game never needed a title update to patch any issues.

Basically, are some people's expectations unrealistic and rude? Yes. Is expecting the best possible from such a highly regarded product, when similar products have done much better, really that unreasonable? I think not.

[xtorma]

dysturbed0ne wrote...

samb wrote...

To the people that agree with the OP, I ask you this: if your boss gave you an assignment and a deadline, would you tell him it's too difficult or would just do it because it's your job? For your sake I hope it's the latter because you won't keep your job if it's the former.

How many of you have jobs? Or are you all still in University? That's how the real world works. Complaining and making yourself excuses will get you fired. Saying "do you know how hard this is for" indicates you are not qualified and/or have poor work ethics. Bioware isn't making excuses for themselves and you shouldn't either.

I haven't heard of a recent wave of firings at BW, so I assume THEIR boss is pleased with their performance.

If BW would not have added MP to this game we all would have still paid exactly what we paid for it. I look at the MP as bonus content, as should everyone else, given the previous sentence. The SP was amazingly bug free compared to the last few big name games I have played, so I find it hard to complain about to BW about annoyances in the MP.

I am no programmer, so I can't give any insight into what it takes to fix anything, but the level of entitlement of people never ceases to amaze me.

I really don't think trying to understand why bugs are not  fixed in a timely manner is "entitlement". I know what i am entitled to , I am entitled to the game I bought in an "as is" condition. That does not mean I should not voice my opinion when i feel it's warrented. If I thought the game was total crap , I wouldn't even bother.

When they used MP as one of the  selling points of the game, it became something I payed for. Free DLC is bonus content to me. MP is not, so we have differing opinions on that. Mine no more or less valid than yours. Our perspective is just different. For me , MP was actually the reason I payed full price for the game ,and did not wait for it to drop in price.

From this thread , I have come to understand a few things I didn't take into consideration before, and should have.

1. Bug fixes are driven first and foremost by economics, not a desire to make the game better. This I understand, and accept.
2. Bugs are extremely difficult to isolate and ramifications from "fixes" are nearly impossible to predict.
3. Bugs are given priorities, so we should never expect them to all to be eradicated. Some bugs will either be too expensive, or not important enough to fix.
4. Bugs may have multiple triggers, so even if they do fix one aspect of a bug, it may appear that nothing was done.
5. Bugs can not be fixed within a time frame. We should never expect an ETA.
6. Because we do not have a CS degree, we can not question why bugs are not fixed.
7. Software is sold " as is". The day you open the package, you have recieved what you paid for.
8. Software engineers get a pass on bugs , because they are so hard to fix.
9. Software engineers should have no deadlines when it comes to fixing bugs, but often use deadlines to explain why there are so many bugs.
10. People are hard headed, so no matter how many times people with CS degrees lament over how hard thier job is, hard headed people will still expect a good product, for a fair price.
11. If there is a piece of sofware with fewer bugs then the one you are using, it's because it's easier to debug, not because the team working on it is any better or worse.
12. Software engineering is harder then being a doctor.

Feel free to add what I missed.

[Mgamerz]

xtorma wrote...

dysturbed0ne wrote...

samb wrote...

To the people that agree with the OP, I ask you this: if your boss gave you an assignment and a deadline, would you tell him it's too difficult or would just do it because it's your job? For your sake I hope it's the latter because you won't keep your job if it's the former.

How many of you have jobs? Or are you all still in University? That's how the real world works. Complaining and making yourself excuses will get you fired. Saying "do you know how hard this is for" indicates you are not qualified and/or have poor work ethics. Bioware isn't making excuses for themselves and you shouldn't either.

I haven't heard of a recent wave of firings at BW, so I assume THEIR boss is pleased with their performance.

If BW would not have added MP to this game we all would have still paid exactly what we paid for it. I look at the MP as bonus content, as should everyone else, given the previous sentence. The SP was amazingly bug free compared to the last few big name games I have played, so I find it hard to complain about to BW about annoyances in the MP.

I am no programmer, so I can't give any insight into what it takes to fix anything, but the level of entitlement of people never ceases to amaze me.

I really don't think trying to understand why bugs are not  fixed in a timely manner is "entitlement". I know what i am entitled to , I am entitled to the game I bought in an "as is" condition. That does not mean I should not voice my opinion when i feel it's warrented. If I thought the game was total crap , I wouldn't even bother.

When they used MP as one of the  selling points of the game, it became something I payed for. Free DLC is bonus content to me. MP is not, so we have differing opinions on that. Mine no more or less valid than yours. Our perspective is just different. For me , MP was actually the reason I payed full price for the game ,and did not wait for it to drop in price.

From this thread , I have come to understand a few things I didn't take into consideration before, and should have.

1. Bug fixes are driven first and foremost by economics, not a desire to make the game better. This I understand, and accept.
2. Bugs are extremely difficult to isolate and ramifications from "fixes" are nearly impossible to predict.
3. Bugs are given priorities, so we should never expect them to all to be eradicated. Some bugs will either be too expensive, or not important enough to fix.
4. Bugs may have multiple triggers, so even if they do fix one aspect of a bug, it may appear that nothing was done.
5. Bugs can not be fixed within a time frame. We should never expect an ETA.
6. Because we do not have a CS degree, we can not question why bugs are not fixed.
7. Software is sold " as is". The day you open the package, you have recieved what you paid for.
8. Software engineers get a pass on bugs , because they are so hard to fix.
9. Software engineers should have no deadlines when it comes to fixing bugs, but often use deadlines to explain why there are so many bugs.
10. People are hard headed, so no matter how many times people with CS degrees lament over how hard thier job is, hard headed people will still expect a good product, for a fair price.
11. If there is a piece of sofware with fewer bugs then the one you are using, it's because it's easier to debug, not because the team working on it is any better or worse.
12. Software engineering is harder then being a doctor.

Feel free to add what I missed.

I guess that is a fair takeaway from what's been said in this thread. I would say being a CS major is easier than being a doctor but they aren't fair comparisons, you don't have a book of how to make great games... granted there aren't books to great surgeries, but there are books that detail how surgeries work. There are videos (albeit, not ones I want to watch...) of surgeries. You get little to none of that in coding.
Most code for games are proprietary - so if one company (say epic games) makes an amazing game, theres a good chance they aren't going to share that with others.

1-5 is mostly true, though even I expect some bugs to get fixed. I would find it somewhat unacceptable if they didn't at least try to fix some issues - and they already have fixed some. As long as I don't have to hear WRWRWRWRWRWRWRWRWRWRWRWRWRWRWRWRWRWRWR every time a drell plays, I'm pretty happy... Other bugs could use a fix, but I wouldn't NEVER BUY BIOWARE AGAIN! if it didn't happen to get fixed.

6: You can, though you might not like or understand some of the answers.

7: Essentially yes, unless it stipulates it comes with updates.

8: There's a balance between the public facing company and getting things to work right, and often each side thinks each side is better. Since BioWare makes the game though, they're going to go farther with the 'fix more bugs, push out less' approach. I don't know how to explain the last patch's mistakes since I don't know what the exact problems were. The engineers make the game, QA tests it. Not every bug is detectable either in the limited time frame - you should never buy a game and expect it to be perfect.

9: Big bug fixes vs consumers waiting argument.

10: People want what they want, developers want to make games work well. There is a reason BW has a PR (the forums mainly with people like Eric and Derek)... CS people don't do well when facing the public typically. There's a social disconnect.

11: It's really case by case. It depends on how well the team works together, how complex the game is, how well it was planned out... you can't really write a short answer for that.

12: They aren't comparable. One is more theory and testing if it works... you don't really get the luxury in doctoring that much. You also don't have to do any sort of debugging in doctor - plus doctors deal with your health, as well as your wallets, while BW just makes stuff that takes your money, and gives you enjoyment (or lack of, if you're a narcissist)

Modifié par Mgamerz, 05 juillet 2012 - 05:52 .

[lastofthefive0s]

staindgrey wrote...

No game is without bugs. That's entirely true. BUT not all games are equal in that regard, either. ME3 is a blockbuster AAA title, the end of a high selling trilogy, funded by corporate giant EA.

And what about Skyward Sword from Nintendo?  25 years worth of games based on Link, Zelda and the land of Hyrule probably make it a blockbuster, AAA title.  But do you know that there is a game ending bug present in their biggest anticipated game of 2011?  If a series of tasks are performed in a certain order, the scripted events that trigger the next part of the game won't happen and players are forced to reload a previous save (if they even have one) or restart from the beginning...and they even made the console it runs on....how did something like that happen in a "blockbuster, AAA title"??!?

[Mgamerz]

lastofthefive0s wrote...

staindgrey wrote...

No game is without bugs. That's entirely true. BUT not all games are equal in that regard, either. ME3 is a blockbuster AAA title, the end of a high selling trilogy, funded by corporate giant EA.

And what about Skyward Sword from Nintendo?  25 years worth of games based on Link, Zelda and the land of Hyrule probably make it a blockbuster, AAA title.  But do you know that there is a game ending bug present in their biggest anticipated game of 2011?  If a series of tasks are performed in a certain order, the scripted events that trigger the next part of the game won't happen and players are forced to reload a previous save (if they even have one) or restart from the beginning...and they even made the console it runs on....how did something like that happen in a "blockbuster, AAA title"??!?

And it doesn't have patches either, so that's really got to be a kick in the pants. At least ME3 has bug fixes

[lastofthefive0s]

Mgamerz wrote...

lastofthefive0s wrote...

staindgrey wrote...

No game is without bugs. That's entirely true. BUT not all games are equal in that regard, either. ME3 is a blockbuster AAA title, the end of a high selling trilogy, funded by corporate giant EA.

And what about Skyward Sword from Nintendo?  25 years worth of games based on Link, Zelda and the land of Hyrule probably make it a blockbuster, AAA title.  But do you know that there is a game ending bug present in their biggest anticipated game of 2011?  If a series of tasks are performed in a certain order, the scripted events that trigger the next part of the game won't happen and players are forced to reload a previous save (if they even have one) or restart from the beginning...and they even made the console it runs on....how did something like that happen in a "blockbuster, AAA title"??!?

And it doesn't have patches either, so that's really got to be a kick in the pants. At least ME3 has bug fixes

To be fair, Nintendo has put forth an effort to help affected players.  At first you could (at least in Japan) send in an SD card with your save file or your Wii to Nintendo and they would edit the file in a way that would allow you to continue through the game and send it back to you.  Since that time, they have released the "Zelda Data Restoration Channel" which can be downloaded from the Wii Shopping Channel and run to do pretty much the same thing.

[Mgamerz]

Oh. I haven't turned on my Wii in ages... I'm not a hardcore gamer, but there is a huge lack of quality 3rd party games on that platform. I am sure the WiiU will have patches... it better. Will the WiiU version of ME3 come with the MP DLC included, along with all the bug fixes, or is it a port of the original release?

[lastofthefive0s]

Mgamerz wrote...

Oh. I haven't turned on my Wii in ages... I'm not a hardcore gamer, but there is a huge lack of quality 3rd party games on that platform. I am sure the WiiU will have patches... it better. Will the WiiU version of ME3 come with the MP DLC included, along with all the bug fixes, or is it a port of the original release?

I'm not really sure if it's just going to be a straightforwad porting of the Mass Effect 3 Xbox/PC/PS3 players have been playing, or if it's going to be specialized to use Wii U specific hardware/controller.  With so many details of the Wii U still unknown, it's difficult to speculate on how Bioware and Nintendo will approach it.

[Mgamerz]

lastofthefive0s wrote...

Mgamerz wrote...

Oh. I haven't turned on my Wii in ages... I'm not a hardcore gamer, but there is a huge lack of quality 3rd party games on that platform. I am sure the WiiU will have patches... it better. Will the WiiU version of ME3 come with the MP DLC included, along with all the bug fixes, or is it a port of the original release?

I'm not really sure if it's just going to be a straightforwad porting of the Mass Effect 3 Xbox/PC/PS3 players have been playing, or if it's going to be specialized to use Wii U specific hardware/controller.  With so many details of the Wii U still unknown, it's difficult to speculate on how Bioware and Nintendo will approach it.

Totally forgot about the controller. If it was a multiplayer map, that would be... SO. USEFUL. Half of the time I can't seem to locate allies because the blue... outline thing doens't show up that well.