207 réponses à ce sujet

[BlackoutOmega]

Modifié par BlackoutOmega, 05 juillet 2012 - 07:03 .

[lastofthefive0s]

Mgamerz wrote...

lastofthefive0s wrote...

Mgamerz wrote...

Oh. I haven't turned on my Wii in ages... I'm not a hardcore gamer, but there is a huge lack of quality 3rd party games on that platform. I am sure the WiiU will have patches... it better. Will the WiiU version of ME3 come with the MP DLC included, along with all the bug fixes, or is it a port of the original release?

I'm not really sure if it's just going to be a straightforwad porting of the Mass Effect 3 Xbox/PC/PS3 players have been playing, or if it's going to be specialized to use Wii U specific hardware/controller.  With so many details of the Wii U still unknown, it's difficult to speculate on how Bioware and Nintendo will approach it.

Totally forgot about the controller. If it was a multiplayer map, that would be... SO. USEFUL. Half of the time I can't seem to locate allies because the blue... outline thing doens't show up that well.

There's a few things they could do with the Wii U's planned controller setup.  It could be used to select weapons and consumables, since it's a touchpad.  An overview map of the current Firebase would be cool.  And if it had squadmate locations AND objective locations...that would be awesome for flanking targets.  Or how about shield and health meters for your squadmates.  Make it easier to see who is getting ambushed so you can go lend them a hand.  So many possibilites.

[Kataigida]

samb wrote...

Kataigida wrote....

Take the vangaurd glitch, which you seem to be fond of saying shouldn't be hard to fix.  
[other technical stuff]

Please don't misquote me. I never said it was easy, other that "it is hard" is not an excuse.  I'm sure it is hard and I don't understand anything about programming but "it's hard" is just an excuse that should not be used by professionals who are getting paid to to it. 
If a surgeon complained to you about how tough it is being a surgeon, keeping track of all that anatomy, the surgical tools, the pressure of making life or death decisions and all the learning they had to go through. You would likely point out he was still making half a million a year and to suck it up.  Why is programming any different?  

Has BW at any point ever said anything about trying to fix glitches bieng hard? No, in fact, they haven't put forward any excuses. Instead, they are focusing on fixing the problem. And honestly speaking they are not making any further money as a company (at least not much) from fixing bugs and glitches in the game.

Let's take surgery for example...let's say a Surgeon removes a patient's tumor. After all of pain-killers, incisions, and the final removal of the tumor, the surgeon closes the incision, and patch up the patient. After they have recovered, the doctor tells the patient they are free to go. The doctor has done his job. But what happens if another tumor shows up? Or if the tumor grows back? The surgeon already did his job, and even if he did it as best any surgeon can do, he can't magically stop another tumor from growing, but if it does, it's not his job to go back and remove the new tumor free of charge.

BW on the other hand, is coming back to the game and constantly repairing it, without making us pay for new patches or tweeks. Honestly speaking, if they stopped fixing the bugs and just left, they would probably make more money by just focusing on releasing new content.

[xtorma]

Kataigida wrote...

samb wrote...

Kataigida wrote....

Take the vangaurd glitch, which you seem to be fond of saying shouldn't be hard to fix.  
[other technical stuff]

Please don't misquote me. I never said it was easy, other that "it is hard" is not an excuse.  I'm sure it is hard and I don't understand anything about programming but "it's hard" is just an excuse that should not be used by professionals who are getting paid to to it. 
If a surgeon complained to you about how tough it is being a surgeon, keeping track of all that anatomy, the surgical tools, the pressure of making life or death decisions and all the learning they had to go through. You would likely point out he was still making half a million a year and to suck it up.  Why is programming any different?  

Has BW at any point ever said anything about trying to fix glitches bieng hard? No, in fact, they haven't put forward any excuses. Instead, they are focusing on fixing the problem. And honestly speaking they are not making any further money as a company (at least not much) from fixing bugs and glitches in the game.

Let's take surgery for example...let's say a Surgeon removes a patient's tumor. After all of pain-killers, incisions, and the final removal of the tumor, the surgeon closes the incision, and patch up the patient. After they have recovered, the doctor tells the patient they are free to go. The doctor has done his job. But what happens if another tumor shows up? Or if the tumor grows back? The surgeon already did his job, and even if he did it as best any surgeon can do, he can't magically stop another tumor from growing, but if it does, it's not his job to go back and remove the new tumor free of charge.

BW on the other hand, is coming back to the game and constantly repairing it, without making us pay for new patches or tweeks. Honestly speaking, if they stopped fixing the bugs and just left, they would probably make more money by just focusing on releasing new content.

ive never paid for a bug patch before, in any game. Ive never paid for any game to balance classes.

The doctor didn't sell the guy his body either, and even if he did, who would buy a body full of tumors?

Modifié par xtorma, 05 juillet 2012 - 10:29 .

[Robbiesan]

+1

I tried my hand at programming years ago and learned I do not have the patience to find bugs, and that was in a simple program. hat's off to programmers.

I think for myself and some others, we do understand and try to be patient and supportive, and are simply becoming frustrated with bugs/glitches, and others simply appear to need to complain (perfectly happy being miserable). So, BW, thanks for all you do.

And thanks to OP for a great and thoughtful post. Kudos.

[Kataigida]

xtorma wrote...

Kataigida wrote...


Has BW at any point ever said anything about trying to fix glitches bieng hard? No, in fact, they haven't put forward any excuses. Instead, they are focusing on fixing the problem. And honestly speaking they are not making any further money as a company (at least not much) from fixing bugs and glitches in the game.

Let's take surgery for example...let's say a Surgeon removes a patient's tumor. After all of pain-killers, incisions, and the final removal of the tumor, the surgeon closes the incision, and patch up the patient. After they have recovered, the doctor tells the patient they are free to go. The doctor has done his job. But what happens if another tumor shows up? Or if the tumor grows back? The surgeon already did his job, and even if he did it as best any surgeon can do, he can't magically stop another tumor from growing, but if it does, it's not his job to go back and remove the new tumor free of charge.

BW on the other hand, is coming back to the game and constantly repairing it, without making us pay for new patches or tweeks. Honestly speaking, if they stopped fixing the bugs and just left, they would probably make more money by just focusing on releasing new content.

ive never paid for a bug patch before, in any game. Ive never paid for any game to balance classes.

The doctor didn't sell the guy his body either, and even if he did, who would buy a body full of tumors?

Obviously it's not a perfect anology, but what ever is? And no, you have never paid for a patch before, but it used to be that games were never patched, at least not until consoles and PC's gave the ability for developers to patch their games after release.

And technically speaking, if you have ever played an MMORPG, you have paid for bug patches, balance changes, and other things. That's basically what that $15 a month if for, besides the new content that they slowly put out.

And as for a 'body full of tumors,' that's exactly the point. No one would buy something like that, unless they didn't know what they were buying. If they did though, then it's a little late by that point. At least BW is going about and actually fixing the problems, even though BW isn't getting paid except by new players, and players that buy packs with money.

[samb]

If your cancer reoccurs the surgeon/oncologist is still responsible for you. He can't just shrug and not treat you. It's a pretty common occurrence (would be nice if it wasn't) and leaving your patient in the wind is called abandonment. Something you can sue them for. In terms of payment your insurance would pay for it, assuming you were covered (hope so because it's illegal not to have health insurance now). So in that regard the analogy is valid. The people working on patches and bugs in BW are still getting paid to fix a recurring problem.

[IllusiveManJr]

samb wrote...

If your cancer reoccurs the surgeon/oncologist is still responsible for you. He can't just shrug and not treat you. It's a pretty common occurrence (would be nice if it wasn't) and leaving your patient in the wind is called abandonment. Something you can sue them for. In terms of payment your insurance would pay for it, assuming you were covered (hope so because it's illegal not to have health insurance now). So in that regard the analogy is valid. The people working on patches and bugs in BW are still getting paid to fix a recurring problem.

Your cancer analogy is bad.

[samb]

theillusiveman11 wrote...

samb wrote...

If your cancer reoccurs the surgeon/oncologist is still responsible for you. He can't just shrug and not treat you. It's a pretty common occurrence (would be nice if it wasn't) and leaving your patient in the wind is called abandonment. Something you can sue them for. In terms of payment your insurance would pay for it, assuming you were covered (hope so because it's illegal not to have health insurance now). So in that regard the analogy is valid. The people working on patches and bugs in BW are still getting paid to fix a recurring problem.

Your cancer analogy is bad.

It was actually Kataigida's analogy, but one I generally agree with. Just clarifying some details. 

[Mgamerz]

They aren't obligated to fix any bugs (though fixing bugs over time will improve the lifetime of the multiplayer).
Here is an example of a company that doesn't fix bugs, because they are not obligated to:
http://en.wikipedia....the_Road_Racing

[lastofthefive0s]

Mgamerz wrote...

They aren't obligated to fix any bugs (though fixing bugs over time will improve the lifetime of the multiplayer).
Here is an example of a company that doesn't fix bugs, because they are not obligated to:
http://en.wikipedia....the_Road_Racing

Wow. Just....wow.  Thanks for that.

[Nitrocuban]

Bug fixing isn´t that easy, ok.
But BW also does not add absolutly basic things like text chat or a ping indicator, the Geth are broken in any thinkable way, banshee magnetic hands got even worse over time, the whole game mechanics with shield vs. armor simply does not work as intended, every DLC adds new bugs instead of fixing the old ones ... players have every reason to slowly loose patience and move forward to other games.

[Zero132132]

 Aren't bug fixes usually easier if you comment out your code pretty well? I guess most of the time, that makes **** take way longer, and some people have a tendency to overdo it, so it isn't too helpful, but isn't the entire point of leaving comments in your coding to make it so that if something's wrong with one specific mechanic, you can look at the areas involved?
I'm sure it's something that's still absurdly awful when there are millions of lines of code to sort through (and multiple platforms to implement it on), and I'm not a CS major (applied math, so I know a tiny bit about coding), but a lot of the time, it does feel like they don't have any specific notion of where to start.

[Mgamerz]

To debug online stuff, they probably have to have a very specific build of the software so they can go step-by-step. Otherwise "You have lost your connection" will appear.
Also, BioWare has never said they are going to put text chat or Ping Indicators (ping would be kinda nice). I don't get why you think they have to.
Text chat on Crysis 2 is a joke, all I ever saw was cussing 14 year olds. A mic is not expensive.

[Kasrkin]

Is there any actual debate about how hard debugging code is?

It's hard. Done.

That doesn't mean that it should not be done. It further does not mean that someone from PR/Damage Control/The temp who fetches coffee shouldn't at least communicate with US, the guy who are trying to have an open dialogue regarding bugfixing. The 360 bug list is 3 months old, and still on the first page.

Player created and maintained. A little recognition of those efforts (say by applying a sticky to said thread) might go a long way to at least making me think that someone cares.

[Mgamerz]

 I put on the first post a link to Derek saying ULM was fixed. So if it isn't fixed Derek... 

[samb]

Mgamerz wrote...

They aren't obligated to fix any bugs (though fixing bugs over time will improve the lifetime of the multiplayer).
Here is an example of a company that doesn't fix bugs, because they are not obligated to:
http://en.wikipedia....the_Road_Racing

It would be one thing to not fix any bugs when you never announced that were going to do it in the first place. It is quite another when you say you are going to fix and even release a patch that does not even work as promised.  You can't let someone off the hook when they already made promises, like your papa always said: "don't make promises you can't keep". 

[ryanshowseason3]

samb wrote...

To the people that agree with the OP, I ask you this: if your boss gave you an assignment and a deadline, would you tell him it's too difficult or would just do it because it's your job? For your sake I hope it's the latter because you won't keep your job if it's the former.

How many of you have jobs? Or are you all still in University? That's how the real world works. Complaining and making yourself excuses will get you fired. Saying "do you know how hard this is for" indicates you are not qualified and/or have poor work ethics. Bioware isn't making excuses for themselves and you shouldn't either.

Why yes I do have a job in the industry. The code base is huge, nothing like I've ever seen before. And no I did not tell them it looked too hard I waded in and three years later I'm still not a master of it but I can tread water. I find your attack on the validity of statements different from your own to be distasteful especially when you admitedly have no experience in the field of your own. How do you figure your opinion has any more merit over the college grads? classic Dunning-Kruger effect here, the unskilled figuring they have more knowledge than the skilled.

I still make mistakes and I still deal with mistakes I made while still learning, I fix my own bugs and others. You can't expect for there to be no bugs in a large piece of software. Thats one thing I've learned since college. I didn't understand it before, but I do now.

[Josh.de]

Uchimura wrote...

The certification feels like the nail in this case.

       
       /
+1 \\/

They got it because the MP part affected tests were all made on LAN not WAN (if WAN then under 10ms latency), so probably the vanguard glitch never happened while certifying, e.g..

In any given project it is much more efficient to have people not involved in the initial project to find errors, otherwise the minor things causing the errors are too often just overseen.

Modifié par Josh.de, 16 juillet 2012 - 01:50 .

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

When you burp, mGamerz, I bet it smells like Creme du Bioware.

[JB27]

Bump. Everyone should read the original post.

[Thomas Andresen]

Kasrkin wrote...

Is there any actual debate about how hard debugging code is?

It's hard. Done.

That doesn't mean that it should not be done. It further does not mean that someone from PR/Damage Control/The temp who fetches coffee shouldn't at least communicate with US, the guy who are trying to have an open dialogue regarding bugfixing. The 360 bug list is 3 months old, and still on the first page.

Player created and maintained. A little recognition of those efforts (say by applying a sticky to said thread) might go a long way to at least making me think that someone cares.

You should already know this, but have you considered that the reason you don't hear about the fixes before the fact is that, due to the nature of debugging, it's practically impossible for them to give even a rough estimate. People will get impatient and moan regardless of the level of dialogue we get from the company.

There's also the prospect of using information responsibly. As an example, if they publicly acknowledge a new bug that can be exploited, it might encourage cheaters to use that exploit, which in the end results in more grief as the exploiters ruin our games.

[Tronar]

Kasrkin wrote...

Is there any actual debate about how hard debugging code is?

It's hard. Done.

That doesn't mean that it should not be done. It further does not mean that someone from PR/Damage Control/The temp who fetches coffee shouldn't at least communicate with US, the guy who are trying to have an open dialogue regarding bugfixing. The 360 bug list is 3 months old, and still on the first page.

Player created and maintained. A little recognition of those efforts (say by applying a sticky to said thread) might go a long way to at least making me think that someone cares.

THIS!

Yes, bug fixing isn't easy. I know that being a developer myself.

But being seemingly incapable of fixing such basic and very annoying glitches like the Vanguard glitch while releasing new DLCs constantly is the result of setting priorities in a certain way. It's a management decision in the end. New DLCs make people buy more Packs, because they long for the new characters. Fixing a bug is not bringing in any money. At least not short term. Long term is a different story, when more and more players leave in droves.


Claiming to have fixed something (like the Vanguard glitch with Patch 1.03) while having in fact NOT is not shining the best light on the responsible departments.

Last but not least releasing a new map (Rio) with the latest DLC, which is providing a high chance of freezing one or two of the four participating Xboxes (or PCs), seems to be confirming the bad impression we all get about the way the QA department works. Seriously, how could such a major flaw slip their attention?

So while it is nice of you to defend Bioware so valiantly, I think you are missing several points:

- most of the most annoying glitches are in the game since the Demo, which gave BW over 6 months now to fix them

- releasing new stuff that actually freezes your console regularly, requiring you to HARD RESET it, isn't just a simple fun spoiler anymore. It affects the integrity of the system. HARD RESETING the Xbox is definitely not the officially recommended way of rebooting. And I am not sure how many HARD RESETs my (developed by Microsoft) Console can take in total. I wouldn't be too surprised if someday some TEMP directory of my Xbox overflows with remnant files and corrupted Filesystem entries and I have to send it in to get it working again. I would like to avoid that. The lost credits, XPs and equipment definitely are dwarfed by this.

Aside from that I have to agree with Kasrkin. A little more responsiveness from BW (instead of spamming "Thread closed" everywhere) would probably make the majority of the complaining forum posters stop whining and wait.

But can anyone show a post, where BW officially acknowledges that the Rio map is seriously broken? And that they are working on fixing it?

Even if they'd say "we need another 3 months, because of the way the Console patch release process is designed" it would be more helpful and they'd get more understanding and support than right now.

Releasing a continuous stream of new bugs and glitches while maintaining an "everything is fine" attitude and silencing half of the threads here isn't really helping long term. Either the aggressive potential will keep building up or people will just choose to play other titles. I think neither of both possibilities is in BW's interest.

Tronar

Modifié par Tronar, 14 août 2012 - 08:50 .

[Tronar]

Josh.de wrote...

Uchimura wrote...

The certification feels like the nail in this case.

       
       /
+1 /

They got it because the MP part affected tests were all made on LAN not WAN (if WAN then under 10ms latency), so probably the vanguard glitch never happened while certifying, e.g..

In any given project it is much more efficient to have people not involved in the initial project to find errors, otherwise the minor things causing the errors are too often just overseen.

Sorry, but I strongly hope your statement isn't true!

Because if BW were really so short-sighted to test a Multiplayer Game that is supposed to be played over the INTERNET (potentially joining players from Australia with Chile with Canada and Siberia into one Lobby) only on a LOCAL network, I would lose all hope of ever getting anything fixed in ME3.

You can't be that stupid. Even if you were the least capable QA department head the world has ever seen. At least somebody else with brains in your team should have suggested to also test the Multiplayer in real world conditions before releasing it even as a Demo. So you would have to not only overlook the obvious but in addition ignore the input from your co-workers. I can't believe that that happened. If so, I strongly hope that nobody of that team will ever work in a nuclear power plant.

I am pretty sure the issue is a little more complicated than that.

Tronar