362 réponses à ce sujet

[v0rt3x22]

John Epler wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Yumi50 wrote...

...WOW.............just WOW.....

And I've always thought BW was all about making-decision-choose-you-option-make-a-choice RPG all along.

EMS for nothing, such a wasted opportunity.

Can't-*******-believe-it.

Do you feel that providing this as a choice is no longer about "making-decision-choose-you-option-make-a-choice" RPG?

I admit I'm not entirely sure what you're saying when you use that phrase.

I don't feel that the ending would be more interesting without this choice.


I guess it depends on what you want with "choice."  Is choice equivalent to "direct the narrative in the way that I want to direct it" or is choice more about "providing alternatives that have different consequences."

I'm about to load the DLC up again myself (finally).

At the end of the day, I never expected my forces to take out the Reapers. I was undergunned, undermanned and outclassed by a race of sentient machines that had access to technology which one can assume is the sum total of countless 50 000 year cycles of technological evolution.

Refuse was my principled stand. My rejection of the gilded shackles, and my Shepard's statement that dying in battle was preferable to living under the thumb of a mad AI god, or pulling a Red Son and putting the world in a bottle that I had full control of.

It wasn't necessarily appropriate for my canon Paragon shep (who was all about Control because he was, essentially, Superman in Red Son), but I still liked the option. Yeah, this cycle lost out, but we took the Reapers to the mat and set up the next cycle to deliver the finishing blow.

I'm sorry if I'm coming a little late into this conversation but I don't get this at all.

How does a hero character go through 2 games - firmly believing he can beat the reapers - and then just gives up in the last 5 minutes?

[Baronesa]

Ryzaki wrote...

See I would've been fine with this. Hell that's what I was expecting. I would've preferred a kamikaze run that severely damages Reaper forces as well. Not enough to win but enough for the next cycle to have an easier time of it. And for *that* cycle to defeat the Reapers conventially.

But Gamble tweeted that they use the Crucible anyway.

So yeah the ending is just BW being petty and going "WELL THE CRUCIBLE IS NEEDED!1111!!!" even with a 40K year headstart.

Ridculous.

They can tweet whatever they want...

We judge the content for what it is presented as... Considering what it is presented... can you say that the next cycle would use the Crucible knowing in advance that IT DOES NOT WORK?

What they intended to show is not what was shown, and that is what actually matters. They didn't intended for people to think the Normandy crashed... yet the cinematics had the engines damaged... so they changed (retconned) that.

Same here... maybe the intention was for us to asume the next cycle would use the Crucible, but the way Liara's message was worded, it was not presented that way.

[Moofy76]

Zix13 wrote...
As Allan said earlier, refuse makes a lot more sense if you don't base your choice on the actual outcomes, since your character is unaware of these outcomes when making that decision.

In fact, you should keep in mind that your mortal enemy is telling you to kill yourself because it will help the galaxy because it says so. Think about it from a first person standpoint. You have no reason to trust it and no reason to believe that the options will actually work. All the options are detrimental to the reapers goal, with the possible exception of synthesis.

So there is most certainly a reason to pick refuse, even without moral considerations.

So you would choose to go cry in the corner all confused and can't make a decision while the galaxy is wiped out? Yeah, that makes sense.

You're Commander Shepard, a leader in the alliance. You know the choices and outcomes (pretty much), you go there with the intention to destroy or possibly control, you are surprised with the synthesis option and then make your best decision. You don't say I don't wanna play anymore and sit in the corner and have a cry.

The Catalyst is not mortal, it's a form of AI, controlling the Reapers. It's purpose is for balance in the galazy and the current solution doesn't work anymore. It's probably doesn't really care about the reapers either. The reapers are only the Catalysts current goal to preserve balance in the galaxy for organics so they aren't wiped out by synthetics.

[Costin_Razvan]

The refusal dialogue makes me puke. If I pick it I prefer to shoot him just so that I don't have to hear that bull****.

[ioannisdenton]

No it is not dumb. it is reality. what did we all actually expect?? to headshot harbinger and win?
Reapers have been reaping Civilisations who knows for how long and all of you beleive that this battle should have ended with just a battle??
The protheans a military nation did not succeed ..
so why this cycle?
Also they found a great way to
-input liara's capsule as it was unused
-give a grim ending but a hopefull one
-a bad case scenario, even in ME2 shep could die and thus lose the war.

Bioware could doa lot better but with this EC i feel the game is saved.

[Lalalandia]

Again Moofy your argument boils down to 'Believe what the creator of the Reapers says', I choose to believe that this is very unlikely to lead to anything positive and without the closing montage of happy people created for the Star Child's choices we'd have no reason to believe they would work.

[Mycrus Ironfist]

refusal is a good ending -- i've always wondered what the liara time capsules were for...

[F00lishG]

Pottumuusi wrote...

Refusal: kicking the Reapers' ass from the moral high ground.

Yes, because pride will prevent genocide and make you a savior. 

Oh, wait.

[JaKaSa]

I liked it. Then again it is pretty much what I suggested as for "bad ending" in the feedback thread (atleast I think it was that too lazy to check). I don't think it like OP that next cycle builds crucible and gets same three choices again. I like to think that they were warned early enough and had real time to prepare and take the reapers by suprise. I think reapers always underestimate species they are harvesting so this time they found cycle that was expecting them and prepared. Now I admit that endings where you can save pretty much everyone dampens this one little bit. Still you have to think about it if you were in that situation. You don't have youtube where you can watch real consequences of three choices starchild gives you. All of them have some faults. You may even think that your cycle has chance of winning so you risk it and decide to go down fighting. Sure it is kinda stupid when you could have saved countless lives with other choices, but you could not have known that. So I like this option. In the end you also made difference even when your cycle lost something you did mattered since Liara's blackbox gave information you gathered about reapers on your journey through all three games to next cycle and they won because of that. That's how I think about it.

Some players say that this was bioware's f u to the players that wanted new ending. It's not. People are just overanalysing everything bioware does. I did that too after game was out. I finaly understand how hard this has been for bioware. They try to please their fans, but they can't please everyone and those that were not pleased see their try as "personal attack" or something like that.

[Zix13]

Moofy76 wrote...

Zix13 wrote...
As Allan said earlier, refuse makes a lot more sense if you don't base your choice on the actual outcomes, since your character is unaware of these outcomes when making that decision.

In fact, you should keep in mind that your mortal enemy is telling you to kill yourself because it will help the galaxy because it says so. Think about it from a first person standpoint. You have no reason to trust it and no reason to believe that the options will actually work. All the options are detrimental to the reapers goal, with the possible exception of synthesis.

So there is most certainly a reason to pick refuse, even without moral considerations.

So you would choose to go cry in the corner all confused and can't make a decision while the galaxy is wiped out? Yeah, that makes sense.

You're Commander Shepard, a leader in the alliance. You know the choices and outcomes (pretty much), you go there with the intention to destroy or possibly control, you are surprised with the synthesis option and then make your best decision. You don't say I don't wanna play anymore and sit in the corner and have a cry.

The Catalyst is not mortal, it's a form of AI, controlling the Reapers. It's purpose is for balance in the galazy and the current solution doesn't work anymore. It's probably doesn't really care about the reapers either. The reapers are only the Catalysts current goal to preserve balance in the galaxy for organics so they aren't wiped out by synthetics.

Did you read my comment? There's no point in arguing the trust issue, you have no reason to trust it, and several reasons not to. You don't know have any real information on the outcomes except for destroy, but that of course, is provided the catalyst isn't lying. You also don't know that your side will lose to the reapers. 

If someone has been trying to kill you for a few years, then tells you to jump into a laser or electricute yourself because it will save the world, would you believe them? Reapers are known to be masters of manipulation. Unless you're role-playing your shep as an idiot, you shouldn't be so trusting.

[JBPBRC]

Sith Reaper wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

I think it was put in the game specifically to debunk Indoctrination Theory. And it suceeds.

I don't know - the IT believers seem pretty riled up by "so be it" line.

Unless it was MEANT to poke fun at the IDT.

Conspiracy theorists, GOOOOOOOO!

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Refusal is a dumb choice, for dumb people, and a reminder that being stubborn is a bad trait

Or it's a reflection that sometimes people would rather die for what they believe is right rather than compromise who they are.

I still picked the destroy ending, but I think this option is a good addition to the end of the game.


I adamantly disagree that it's a "dumb" choice though.  You can make a good argument that any of the choices are good or dumb IMO.

Which was the point of the multiple endings, iirc.

[Navasha]

Refusal is still a better option than control or synthesis. Some of my Shepards would actually choose this one. So sorry, OP. I realize that you are determined to continue your hatred of the game despite everything, but refusal is a nice addition to the end.

[thefallen2far]

sorry, double post.

Modifié par thefallen2far, 27 juin 2012 - 04:23 .

[thefallen2far]

MadRabbit999 wrote...


Sorry not to defend anyone here, but your example makes no sense at all in relation with what refusal is in ME.. if you really want to make an example is more like:

Annoying Kid: Whaaa... whaaa, I did not like the ME endings because it did not allow me to tell the kid to get lost, whaa!

Story teller: Well there is no point, the reapers are too strong anyways

Annoying Kid: Whaaa, whaa I want to tell the reapers to get lost

Story Teller: Fine, you tell them to get lost, then they swarm around the crucible and kill everyone, happier now?

Annoying Kid: Whaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!

That kid would be displeased. Now let me return the favor.

A gimp is being fed ************** censored due to vulgarity**************

And the gimp says: Please, master, feed me more.

So the stroyteller *****************censored due to vulgarity **************

And the gimp says I love being fed **************censored due to vulgarity *******************

I think, in this story, the gimp is very satisfied with what he was fed, don't you? Good thing you're not a gimp, huh?

[MrGuse]

thefallen2far wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...


Sorry not to defend anyone here, but your example makes no sense at all in relation with what refusal is in ME.. if you really want to make an example is more like:

Annoying Kid: Whaaa... whaaa, I did not like the ME endings because it did not allow me to tell the kid to get lost, whaa!

Story teller: Well there is no point, the reapers are too strong anyways

Annoying Kid: Whaaa, whaa I want to tell the reapers to get lost

Story Teller: Fine, you tell them to get lost, then they swarm around the crucible and kill everyone, happier now?

Annoying Kid: Whaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!

That kid would be displeased. Now let me return the favor.

A gimp is being fed ************** censored due to vulgarity**************

And the gimp says: Please, master, feed me more.

So the stroyteller *****************censored due to vulgarity **************

And the gimp says I love being fed **************censored due to vulgarity *******************

I think, in this story, the gimp is very satisfied with what he was fed, don't you? Good thing you're not a gimp, huh?

Admiral Hackett in about 12,000 different places in the game clearly says: "We can't win this war conventionally." He then repeats it about a thousand more times. "We can't win this war conventionally." 

You say "I bet we can!" Hackett then goes on to prove why he's an admiral and you're a commander.

[jeff359]

Refusal is a good option. It gives you the option to get out of the reaper trap, and you stop the crucible and star brat from ever coming back in future cycles.

There has to be negatives to all of the endings or you'd just have a "right one"

Modifié par jeff359, 27 juin 2012 - 04:27 .

[ghostz82]

I still think the best ending and choice was the original option to destroy the reapers because if you see the cutscene that shows Shepard all banged up and taking a breath it leaves the possibility of maybe a mass effect 4 with Shepard still alive. That cutscene can then be continued and they can further explain how he survives in the next mass effect and they can take it from there. That would be awesome and very possible since there's nothing that can't be done.

[Ryzaki]

Baronesa wrote...
They can tweet whatever they want...

We judge the content for what it is presented as... Considering what it is presented... can you say that the next cycle would use the Crucible knowing in advance that IT DOES NOT WORK?

What they intended to show is not what was shown, and that is what actually matters. They didn't intended for people to think the Normandy crashed... yet the cinematics had the engines damaged... so they changed (retconned) that.

Same here... maybe the intention was for us to asume the next cycle would use the Crucible, but the way Liara's message was worded, it was not presented that way.

Their tweeting however shows their intentions and their intentions was a petty jab like a five year old.

Most likely they'd try to refine it so that it *does* work. Or try to test it since they ahve everything needed and the second they meet Starchild he'll probably tell them it's not that the Crucible didn't work it was that Shep's cycle refused to pick an option and was wiped out.

It matters to me. I'll headcanon around it but it still leaves that bad taste in my mouth because it is at its core meant to be a "take that!" ending.

It wasn't which is why I initally assumed they defeated the Reapers conventially while they were still resting in darkspace.

[wh00ley 06]

This ending would've been fine if it wasn't implied that the next cycle used the Crucible, and if we got to see the Normandy crash into Harbinger.

[F00lishG]

Honesty here, I do respect the people who's Shepards are uncompromising and all that, but to know the truth and still choose the Refusal ending for more than just to see it or for a mistake is selfish.

Your goal was to stop the Reapers. And because you want to be better than them, you willingly choose to let civilizations die. For your pitiful pride, you will let the Reapers destroy everything.

If only Bioware was malicious. If only they thought that people would willingly accept Refusal as the best choice and constructed yet another alternate ending: If your EMS isn't 5000+ when you refuse, the screen will turn black after "So be it" and in text will say: FINAL CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE. THE END. And you will know that you doomed the worlds and sidekick Liara T'soni was unable to send a beacon.

Modifié par F00lishG, 27 juin 2012 - 04:32 .

[Moofy76]

Did you read my comment? There's no point in arguing the trust issue, you have no reason to trust it, and several reasons not to. You don't know have any real information on the outcomes except for destroy, but that of course, is provided the catalyst isn't lying. You also don't know that your side will lose to the reapers. 

If someone has been trying to kill you for a few years, then tells you to jump into a laser or electricute yourself because it will save the world, would you believe them? Reapers are known to be masters of manipulation. Unless you're role-playing your shep as an idiot, you shouldn't be so trusting.

I did not read any other one that you posted but, you do have reason to believe the catalyst, you can even question him why you should believe it etc, and you don't want to chose any of the options.

It tells you that it (catalyst) has been changed/altered when the Crucible was created etc, that the variables have been changed, that a new "solution" needs to be chosen as the current solution with the reapers will not work anymore. This is possibly why you've been able to teleport onto it from the base where Harbinger was. Maybe the Catalyst "let" you. After all it controls the reapers, somewhat.

That is why you decide to trust it, it's an AI, it wants to preserve life in the galaxy by restoring the balance from chaos (synthetics taking over).

Now, you don't HAVE to trust it if you don't want to, being the player - but shepard probably would. You can be all stuborn if you want. Or you can believe it and take a chance, that's what leaders do. What are your options, listen to it's decent resoning and make an educated guess or do nothing and go sit in the corner while the reapers complete their harvesting of civilisations? So that IS WHY you DO want to be chosing one of the 3 options!

You believe the catalyst is telling the truth (mostly) for the above reasons, you said you don't know your side will ose to the Reapers? Are you kidding?? It's been drilled into you throughout the whole entire game that the Crucible is the only way.

It's the 4th quarter and you're down by two points, Shepard is at the three point line.. the "do nothing" option is basically turning the ball over and the clock runs out.

The only role playing I do as my Commander Shepard is to win, sitting back on the sideline and watching your team go down cos you are hoping they can beat an opponent many times stronger than your's is a wussy Shepard.

Modifié par Moofy76, 27 juin 2012 - 04:37 .

[nitefyre410]

wh00ley 06 wrote...

This ending would've been fine if it wasn't implied that the next cycle used the Crucible, and if we got to see the Normandy crash into Harbinger.

 

Thats what makes the whole refusal ending a bit of a slap in the face becaue it does imply in  more less terms that the  Crucible is going to be used anyway. 

Which undermines the whole purpose  Refusing. 

[Novate]

Heeden wrote...

The whole game centred around the Crucible being our only shot of stopping the Reapers, if you decide not to use it we have no chance of stopping the Reapers.

You do realize that the whole Crucible is just a HUGE MEGA BATTERY right?!?!
Catalyst actually tells you that the whole Crucible is not a weapon, just a power source.

[thefallen2far]

MrGuse wrote...

Admiral Hackett in about 12,000 different places in the game clearly says: "We can't win this war conventionally." He then repeats it about a thousand more times. "We can't win this war conventionally." 

You say "I bet we can!" Hackett then goes on to prove why he's an admiral and you're a commander.

Mass Effect 1:

"You can't stop Saren."  "You can't stop the Zert Corporation".  "You have can't let the Racchni Queen live"  You could defy all of that.

Mass Effect 2:
"This is a suicide mission"  "Some of your team may not be coming back."  You have to choose between telling the truth at Tali's trial or letting Tali be exiled"
You could defy all those options.

Mass Effect 3:
"There will be no peace between Quarians and Geth"  "The Genophage can't be cured."
You could  defy all of that.

The ending
"You have to go through Casey Hudson and Mac Walter's plot device."
No?  You don't like our "vision".  Well eff you.  Shepard's a useless character anyway that can't do anything, anyway.