362 réponses à ce sujet

[Skullheart]

M2S SOLID JOSH wrote...

as someone said on youtube- "refusal is just a big "f*ck you" from bioware to people who wanted a new ending"

this

[C9316]

Mcfly616 wrote...

C9316 wrote...

I didn't think Bioware had it in them to make a choice even dumber than Synthesis, shows what I know.

You mean, a choice to tell the StarBrat to F off, and go out a free man on your own terms? Yeah reeeeeeaaaal dumb.....haha wow.....people are complaining because we lost the cycle in that particular ending? What babies honestly.....go watch some Disney now children

Yeah, who cares that the next cycle just uses the crucible anyway. That doesn't mean all your deaths were in vain at all!

[humes spork]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Sweet Zombie Jesus, it's everything I've wanted to say about the Reject ending wrapped up in a single post. 

Indeed. The Refusal ending actually kind of struck out to me as a shout-out to Space Quest more than a blatant F-you to fans. Because god knows, Space Quest had more than its fair share of ways for you to do something incredibly stupid and kill yourself, and the game wouldn't let you forget it either. Especially when the game warned you about it ahead of time and you did it anyway.

My fave was still "you died because you were dumb".

[iExothermic]

I agree it makes the 3 games pointless if you just wanted to let the reapers continue what was the point of doing all of what you did in ME1 ME2 and ME3 just let them go about their way LOL

[iHorizons]

BW: IT? TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Tocquevillain]

Uzzy wrote...

Yeah, no. Refusal means you stay true to the very core principles that make Shepard who he is. Everything he's fought for. You choose your own ending to civilization, rather then compromising those core principles to survive. You choose your own fate, rather then accepting the Starchild's spurious reasoning.

And then you die, having done everything possible to defy the fate chosen for you by the Reapers.

It's the only ending that makes thematic sense, and had they added in some playable (or otherwise) scenes of your forces fighting to the very end, ala Halo Reach, it'd quite possibly have saved the entire game.

That's selfish to the point of stupidity. Saying anything eles in response to your post would not make sense.

[humes spork]

Tocquevillain wrote...

That's selfish to the point of stupidity.

...rather the point, isn't it...

[Ryzaki]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

The reject isn't stupid - it's stupid ONLY if we have the prior knowledge of what it, and the other choises lead to.

Without that knowledge, it is, by far, the most reasonable action to take, though not for the reasons Shepard gives for rejecting the options. It's most reasonable because Shepard has had a consistent experience of deals with the reapers ending up with whoever dealt with them getting indoctrinated, and ending up working for the reapers. Add to that the fact that the catalyst takes the form it takes directly from Sheppard's memories, which proves that the reapers have access to his memories, and are quite likely manipulating him in some way.

This means that Shepard absolutely should not believe anything the catalyst says - he should realize that the options the catlyst offers are just subtrefuges for an attempt at total indoctrination of Sheppard, and that choosing any of the options would most likely just lead to Sheppard becoming a tool of the reapers. On the other hand, the fact that they are offering these options to Sheppard, rather than killing him ouright, may mean that they are in a vulnerable position somehow - but to discover how, and to do something about it, you first have to get rid of this aparition that is telling you lies.

What IS truly stupid is that the catalyst is in fact, telling the truth. Suddenly co-operating with an organic because one got into the citadel? Suddenly reversing hundreds of thousands, or millions of years of consistent strategy because of Shepard? And the utterly unbelievable and scientifically implausible option of the synthesis - if Sheppard had the basic understanding of biology, this option would just be further proof that the catalyst is telling lies.

The story telling decisions that the writers made were stupid - the player choosing the most reasonable option, and not being gullible, is not stupid. Bioware rewarding gullibility is stupid.

This.

Starbrat's whole "oh I'm gonna help you change my solution but but NO YOU DON'T AGREE WITH MY NEW SOLUTIONS SO BUGGER OFF!" is just wut? 

And How in the hell did he TURN OFF the Crucible? The whole scene smells.

[Lalalandia]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

The reject isn't stupid - it's stupid ONLY if we have the prior knowledge of what it, and the other choises lead to.

Without that knowledge, it is, by far, the most reasonable action to take, though not for the reasons Shepard gives for rejecting the options. It's most reasonable because Shepard has had a consistent experience of deals with the reapers ending up with whoever dealt with them getting indoctrinated, and ending up working for the reapers. Add to that the fact that the catalyst takes the form it takes directly from Sheppard's memories, which proves that the reapers have access to his memories, and are quite likely manipulating him in some way.

This means that Shepard absolutely should not believe anything the catalyst says - he should realize that the options the catlyst offers are just subtrefuges for an attempt at total indoctrination of Sheppard, and that choosing any of the options would most likely just lead to Sheppard becoming a tool of the reapers. On the other hand, the fact that they are offering these options to Sheppard, rather than killing him ouright, may mean that they are in a vulnerable position somehow - but to discover how, and to do something about it, you first have to get rid of this aparition that is telling you lies.

What IS truly stupid is that the catalyst is in fact, telling the truth. Suddenly co-operating with an organic because one got into the citadel? Suddenly reversing hundreds of thousands, or millions of years of consistent strategy because of Shepard? And the utterly unbelievable and scientifically implausible option of the synthesis - if Sheppard had the basic understanding of biology, this option would just be further proof that the catalyst is telling lies.

The story telling decisions that the writers made were stupid - the player choosing the most reasonable option, and not being gullible, is not stupid. Bioware rewarding gullibility is stupid.

Excellent post, I shot the Star Child because I hate that Deus Ex Machina and got the ending by surprise. I knew themoment I saw a green and sunny field that a trolling was sure to ensue. I still prefer it to the other ending, better to die free than live as a slave.

[Stian7]

 Actually, before the DLC, before the rage againt the ending, before I had finished the game I actually wondered if that would become the ending/one of the endings. I imagened that you would see somone in the next cycle find Liara's "note".

Nice adtion I would say.

[themaltaproject]

codename2o2 wrote...

I accidentally chose reject my first time. Thought it would be what my shep would do.

The second I heard Liara's recorded voice, I restarted my console and practically ran to destroy.

You're lucky, I wanted to do that but it restarted me at the cutscene. Kind of like saying haha nope you chose this, deal with it.

[Manure]

I like the "This is all going to hell" concept, but not convinced on how it was achieved. Shepard's speech is great but it lacks aggressiveness. It looks like he either doesn't know the consequences or as accepted them.
That's way out of character specially for a renegade playthrough.
Now don´t crucify me but... i think this ending would be better if Shepard suicided after facing the fleet destruction.

- "Whatever happens defend your honor!" -

[Swordfishtrombone]

Stian7 wrote...

 Actually, before the DLC, before the rage againt the ending, before I had finished the game I actually wondered if that would become the ending/one of the endings. I imagened that you would see somone in the next cycle find Liara's "note".

Nice adtion I would say.

That was a good part of that ending - however, the consolation that you gave a chance to the next cycle is soured by the realization that if they build the crucible, and someone does get through the same way you got through, and gets presented the same options in the same way, they too are likely to reject them, in the belief that the catalyst is lying, and trying to indoctrinate them, and rejection would be the only way to retain your mind, and actually have a chance at beating the reapers.

That is, unless whatever creature plays your part in the next cycle is so gullible that against all evidence, they believe the catalyst. And while that may, bizarrely, lead to their survival in some form or another, it's not exactly an uplifting thought that the best of the best in that cycle is a fool that saved everyone through his/her/it's gullibility.

[Mcfly616]

I got the refusal by accident.....and it was great....loved it

[terdferguson123]

Believe it or not, a lot of people that I spoke to when discussing the endings back around release time said they wanted an ending to refuse the catalyst, even if that ultimately meant defeat. I don't see it as trolling, I see it as Bioware giving what people asked for. All 3 games have literally pounded home the fact that the Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally, if they added a conventional victory ending then it would have been the greatest inconsistency of all.

[Dan Dark]

Another problem I'm seeing here... With the original endings, the message as basically "No matter what you do, you're still gonna die in the end." But with this ending, the message seems to be "Stay true to yourself, never compromise your morals and ideals... and you will destroy everything! Everybody dies!"

I get it; not everything in real-life always turns out well, but, first off, this isn't real life, and second... Is that REALLY the kind of message you'd want to give people?

[Lalalandia]

themaltaproject wrote...

codename2o2 wrote...

I accidentally chose reject my first time. Thought it would be what my shep would do.

The second I heard Liara's recorded voice, I restarted my console and practically ran to destroy.

You're lucky, I wanted to do that but it restarted me at the cutscene. Kind of like saying haha nope you chose this, deal with it.

If you're on PC there is a save called "Chapter Save.pcsav" that is from just after the reaper blast in London. just rename it "Autosave.pcsav" and you can resume from there. I'm afraid I've no idea how to do that on consoles

[saracen16]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Ok, when you pick refusal everyone in our cycle dies, Reapers continue.
Now I see why you may pick this (you hate all the other options) so your told  the cycle after ours stops the Reapers.
They did this through Liara's capsule, this showed them how to build the crucible which would lead them to one of the three options you refused, and chose one.
This means all you do is kill everyone you know for no reason, hence the title name.

The fans asked for that option, and you got the consequences. There is no choice without consequence.

Grow up.

[Tocquevillain]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

The reject isn't stupid - it's stupid ONLY if we have the prior knowledge of what it, and the other choises lead to.

Without that knowledge, it is, by far, the most reasonable action to take, though not for the reasons Shepard gives for rejecting the options. It's most reasonable because Shepard has had a consistent experience of deals with the reapers ending up with whoever dealt with them getting indoctrinated, and ending up working for the reapers. Add to that the fact that the catalyst takes the form it takes directly from Sheppard's memories, which proves that the reapers have access to his memories, and are quite likely manipulating him in some way.

This means that Shepard absolutely should not believe anything the catalyst says - he should realize that the options the catlyst offers are just subtrefuges for an attempt at total indoctrination of Sheppard, and that choosing any of the options would most likely just lead to Sheppard becoming a tool of the reapers. On the other hand, the fact that they are offering these options to Sheppard, rather than killing him ouright, may mean that they are in a vulnerable position somehow - but to discover how, and to do something about it, you first have to get rid of this aparition that is telling you lies.

What IS truly stupid is that the catalyst is in fact, telling the truth. Suddenly co-operating with an organic because one got into the citadel? Suddenly reversing hundreds of thousands, or millions of years of consistent strategy because of Shepard? And the utterly unbelievable and scientifically implausible option of the synthesis - if Sheppard had the basic understanding of biology, this option would just be further proof that the catalyst is telling lies.

The story telling decisions that the writers made were stupid - the player choosing the most reasonable option, and not being gullible, is not stupid. Bioware rewarding gullibility is stupid.

You know what the most interesting thing about this post is? That your points can all be refuted by simply playing the game and acting on the information given in the game. Despite Bioware laying out everything in the EC, taking away all the mystery surrounding the Starchild, you still want to run off and imagine Shepard is being manipulated. To prove your point that refusal is the best option in a science fiction video game ending, you choose to take facts not given to you in the game ("scientifically implausible" etc) and let that make your decision.

I mean, I get it, you think you're really commander Shepard, but try relating your posts to the information we were given in the video game to make your point.

EDIT: And for every person who tries to tell me "the game explains things scientifically, this wasn't, so it was magic", your powers are just as bogus. If you actually needed the codex to suspend your disbelief, that's your issue.

Modifié par Tocquevillain, 26 juin 2012 - 10:07 .

[Ryzaki]

terdferguson123 wrote...

Believe it or not, a lot of people that I spoke to when discussing the endings back around release time said they wanted an ending to refuse the catalyst, even if that ultimately meant defeat. I don't see it as trolling, I see it as Bioware giving what people asked for. All 3 games have literally pounded home the fact that the Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally, if they added a conventional victory ending then it would have been the greatest inconsistency of all.

Yup I have no issues with Shep and everyone else dying in this ending.

I just don't want the next cycle to make their deaths pointless by using the Crucible anyway. I want them to defeat the Reapers without using Reaper aid.

They would have a great chance at defeating the Reapers convientially. THey know their weaknesses, they have 50k years to prepare, they can catch them off guard, so on and so forth. There's little reason for the next cycle (especially not if they get Liara's intel early enough) to have to use the Crucible.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juin 2012 - 10:04 .

[tonnactus]

Welsh Inferno wrote...
It really makes the Reapers look like crap. A

Why the reapers needed their citadel trap plan in the first place if they are that powerfull that it is impossible to defeat them conventionally??

[brain_damage]

So, um, you get another scene in the end - not the one with Buzz Aldrin, a scene with a woman talking to a child. And the woman looks asari-like? So everybody's an asari now? Aahhahahahhahahah

[Arios1570]

So...they used my headcannon worst case scenario, only putting less thought into it?! COOL!

Modifié par Arios1570, 26 juin 2012 - 10:07 .

[Swordfishtrombone]

Tocquevillain wrote...

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

The reject isn't stupid - it's stupid ONLY if we have the prior knowledge of what it, and the other choises lead to.

Without that knowledge, it is, by far, the most reasonable action to take, though not for the reasons Shepard gives for rejecting the options. It's most reasonable because Shepard has had a consistent experience of deals with the reapers ending up with whoever dealt with them getting indoctrinated, and ending up working for the reapers. Add to that the fact that the catalyst takes the form it takes directly from Sheppard's memories, which proves that the reapers have access to his memories, and are quite likely manipulating him in some way.

This means that Shepard absolutely should not believe anything the catalyst says - he should realize that the options the catlyst offers are just subtrefuges for an attempt at total indoctrination of Sheppard, and that choosing any of the options would most likely just lead to Sheppard becoming a tool of the reapers. On the other hand, the fact that they are offering these options to Sheppard, rather than killing him ouright, may mean that they are in a vulnerable position somehow - but to discover how, and to do something about it, you first have to get rid of this aparition that is telling you lies.

What IS truly stupid is that the catalyst is in fact, telling the truth. Suddenly co-operating with an organic because one got into the citadel? Suddenly reversing hundreds of thousands, or millions of years of consistent strategy because of Shepard? And the utterly unbelievable and scientifically implausible option of the synthesis - if Sheppard had the basic understanding of biology, this option would just be further proof that the catalyst is telling lies.

The story telling decisions that the writers made were stupid - the player choosing the most reasonable option, and not being gullible, is not stupid. Bioware rewarding gullibility is stupid.

You know what the most interesting thing about this post is? That your points can all be refuted by simply playing the game and acting on the information given in the game. Despite Bioware laying out everything in the EC, taking away all the mystery surrounding the Starchild, you still want to run off and imagine Shepard is being manipulated. To prove your point that refusal is the best option in a science fiction video game ending, you choose to take facts not given to you in the game ("scientifically implausible" etc) and let that make your decision.

I mean, I get it, you think you're really commander Shepard, but try relating your posts to the information we were given in the video game to make your point.

What is the source of all of the information you get off the starchild? The stachild.

If you think the starchild is simply a deception, you obviously cannot trust what the starchild claims of the starchild. And I believe there's more than adequate reason for Sheppard to think, at that point, that he is being deceived.

The aggravating thing is that you aren't given an option to express that distrust as the reason for rejecting the options.

As for the scientific implausiblility of the synthesis option, do you disagree? If so, I'd like to hear a proposed mechanism for how it could happen, because I certainly cannot think of one. And "life energy" being referenced is truly a face-palm moment for anyone with basic understanding of biology.  It might work in fantasy, but not in scifi.

[LKx]

Well, in the Dark energy plot the "reapers win" ending had a purpose, this one not so much, Shepard should have had at least tried to destroy the mastermind TS, and i don't mean by shooting an hologram (maybe calling a nuke toward the citadel ).

In the way that it's played, would have been worth a try the control option, because even if the starbrat lied, it would have been better than doing exactly nothing, and i don't see Shepard just give up like that.

Said so, i'm perfectly ok with it resulting in a total loss for this cycle, just the way it's played looks a bit like a middle finger.

Modifié par LKx, 26 juin 2012 - 10:12 .