362 réponses à ce sujet

[mjh417]

The new refusal choice, I don't care what anyone says, is basically Bioware trolling all of us fans, myself included, who felt that our Shep would want to refuse. So now you can do that but, that means Shep just walks off and the Reapers kill us all. Yeah that was a good option. Oh but the next cycle is okay, cause they DID WHAT WE REFUSED TO. This is just lame, and a huge f-you to us who wanted an option like this.

[Dresden867]

So, here's the thing: you're warned, right up front "Refusing will kill everyone, conventional victory is not possible" not just once, but several times (and even throughout the game!).

And it offends you that the "refusal" choice results in the Reapers winning this cycle?

I mean, come on. It was a gimme. You were -told- what would happen.

[Sparkiestiii]

M0keys wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

The Rejection ending results in Catalyst's voice changing to a Reaper-like voice, followed by a new Stargazer, who talks as if the Reapers eventually got defeated... so how exactly is the Rejection ending an FU to the IT from Bioware?

the next cycle uses the crucible

which means that whoever wrote it must've wrote it with the intention of showing "rejecters" how whiny and childlike they all are.

"you couldn't man up, you big baby, but these guys could! you accomplished nothing except everyone died."

The next cycle does not use the Crucible. Liara say's in her recording that the Crucible failed to fire.

[Lazarus Cricket]

Dresden867 wrote...

So, here's the thing: you're warned, right up front "Refusing will kill everyone, conventional victory is not possible" not just once, but several times (and even throughout the game!).

And it offends you that the "refusal" choice results in the Reapers winning this cycle?

I mean, come on. It was a gimme. You were -told- what would happen.

I never believe everything I'm told. Lots of things have been said to be wrong or impossible until great minds and heroes change the paradigm. Don't think like a sheep.

[Dresden867]

Lazarus Cricket wrote...

I never believe everything I'm told. Lots of things have been said to be wrong or impossible until great minds and heroes change the paradigm. Don't think like a sheep.

 I tried it. It didn't work. I reloaded and did something else. I don't understand why "it did not work" is actively "offensive" and "trolling".

 I mean, you have this option -at all- now. Okay, it doesn't work, but you got a whole ending of your VERY OWN for this option.

[Swordfishtrombone]

Tocquevillain wrote...
.....

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

What is the source of all of the information you get off the starchild? The stachild.

If you think the starchild is simply a deception, you obviously cannot trust what the starchild claims of the starchild. And I believe there's more than adequate reason for Sheppard to think, at that point, that he is being deceived.

The aggravating thing is that you aren't given an option to express that distrust as the reason for rejecting the options.

As for the scientific implausiblility of the synthesis option, do you disagree? If so, I'd like to hear a proposed mechanism for how it could happen, because I certainly cannot think of one. And "life energy" being referenced is truly a face-palm moment for anyone with basic understanding of biology.  It might work in fantasy, but not in scifi.

*You think the Starchild is a deception. --> You are not given any information to make this call, except you think there's a good enough reason. What exactly is that reason?

*You believe synthesis is implausible in-game and is  not acceptable in a science fiction game, but accept that humans can have telekinetic powers in a science fiction game. There is no evidence that either is plausible, except in a game with fantasy elements, which is what Mass Effect is. There is a lot of cognitive dissonance there. You've accepted that one can happen but can't accept that the other can happen because you believe Mass Effect's codex to be an adequate attempt to explain away fantasy as science. This is incorrect.

 

To your first question, I believe I gave the reasons already. I'll repeat the ones I've given, and give a few extra for good measure:

1. The ONE consistent in the game thus far has been that individuals that deal with the reapers get indoctrinated, and generally have trouble even realizing that they are indoctrinated, or being influenced. My Shepard doesn't have such an inflated ego that he'd think that he's somehow unique in being able to deal with the reapers without getting indoctrinated.

2. The form the starchild takes is the same child from your dreams - the only reasonable conclusion is that the reaper/catalyst you are dealing with has accessess to your memories, supporting the conclusion that it is extremely likely that what is happening is an idoctrination.

3. The starchild's explanation of  why he NOW is willing to deal with an organic on such terms, when he hasn't done that ever before, sounds exactly what a con-man does to get his mark to ignore his doubts; stroking the ego of the mark.

4. The explanations and options given are not plausible. Control seems like an obvious trap, and by offering "destroy", he's just contradicted himself - earlier he claimed that a "new solution" would be necessary, but clearly destroying what he considered the solution does not constitute a "new solution" in any way - it's just removing the "solution" that is there. And Synthesis is just silly, and contradicts known science.

These points are more than enough to form the conclusion that the catalyst absolutely should not be trusted, and that you are being deceived.

As to your second point/question - the existence of telekinetic powers is the largest "ask" of our ability to suspend disbelief up until the synthesis ending, but it is acceptable, because there exists an "explanation" on how it works. The explanation requires us to assume the existence of a new element, and new forces of nature that interact with that element, forces that can be manipulated, but there is a decent effort made, in the codex, to make it clear that there are mechanisms by which it works. It doesn't bear any very deep scrutiny, but it's enough to excuse it, and allow the player to accept it for story purposes.

There's nothing similar in the synthesis ending - the one measly attempt in the new EC of explaining it actually makes it worse, because it invokes a concept that was rejected, shown false, by science more than a hundred years ago. Life energy? Essense? If you want me to suspend disbelief, give me at least a superficially plausible mechanism, and DON'T reference new-age nonsese or already throughly refuted old scientific concepts.

The one thing they DID do better in the EC version of the synthesis was the part of the synthetics - it was changed so that they gained the knowledge and understanding of organics, rather than becoming partly organic themselves. Now this is acceptable - information can be carried in some sort of an energetic wave.

But "new dna", and synthetic parts somehow materializing out of thin air inside people - that is so far beyond the limits of plausibility, that you can't even see the edge of plausibility from that far.

[Memnon]

Bioware trolled us and forced shooting the kid into Reject ... quite clever actually

[Greed1914]

Seemed like an obvious answer to those who wondered why not try to fight conventionally. At least they show that it wouldn't work, and more importantly having that option makes it seem less like Shepard just rolls with whatever the kid says.

[Kristofer1]

Refusal does not debunk indoctrination. It very well could be Shepard over coming indoctrination. Or Shepard succumbing to indoctrination. He overcomes by making his own decision which restarts the cycle, knowing that liara's time capsule may save the next cycle. They dont necessarily have to do the crucible thing next time. the next cycle could use the time capsule to create weapons that will more easily destroy reapers.
if it is viewed as shepard succumbs to indoctrination you could argue by him doing nothing his apathy helps the reapers succeed in killing off this cycle, thus continuing with the cycles in 50k years.

I myself was not a fan of the slide show. I could careless about what happened to those squadmates. However I did enjoy the explanation behind jokers leaving. the modified "damaged" mass relays. all in all it made sense.
I still dont get the whole tell me another shepard story piece. if humanity survived then those details wouldnt be lost over time. simple.

[Swordfishtrombone]

Kristofer1 wrote...

Refusal does not debunk indoctrination.

And that is the problem with indoctrination. Nothing conceivable can debunk it - everything can be explainaned away in terms of indoctrination. The Indoctrination is eerily similar to your run-of-the-mill conspiracy theory in that way; it takes a bunch of cherry picked observations of seemingly inconsequential little things, weaves a complex web of a coherent alternative to the "official story", and is unrefutable, because it can accomodate any conceivable evidence.

That's precicely why I've never liked IT.

[zambot]

I disagree. Refusal allows you to stand by your principles, even if it means death. Then if you keep watching, it is confirmed the reapers are destroyed in the next cycle thanks to your actions. Sure, it's not unicorns and rainbows, but it's a viable choice.

[Bill Casey]

People wanted a Reapers win ending...
You know, besides Synthesis and Control...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 27 juin 2012 - 02:08 .

[M920CAIN]

The rejection ending seems to be more of a Game Over screen. If it would've showed some scenes in which the last people, krogan, ships are destroyed, sure, but it was too direct, too "in your face" if you will. I still think destroy is the best option, although the Catalyst now explains why Synthesis is "so great".

[Lazarus Cricket]

Greed1914 wrote...

Seemed like an obvious answer to those who wondered why not try to fight conventionally. At least they show that it wouldn't work, and more importantly having that option makes it seem less like Shepard just rolls with whatever the kid says.

Though I undestand where the other side is coming from I have to disagree that it makes the other endings acceptable

Also with the shell of the reaper from ME2 it seems convential methods with unconvential warfare would be a mix when applied at mass scale could work.

With arrival we saw a mass relay could be used like a bomb and it can delay reapers. With the rachni we know relays can be knocked from orbit and placed out into nebula and elsewhere.

With a creative military mind victory, though unlikely, is possible. I would've tried converting everyship I could get my hands on, press every sentient being into the fight, in a battle for existance there's no room for beauracracy or cowardice. Also I wonder if a "death by a thousand cuts" ala a chinese military strategy would have a chance for success.

Using geth probe designs, outfit them with thanix cannon type technology, get it down as small as we can and unleash hard to target hordes of drones to get in close past their defenses that seem better off at protecting against large ships.

If we could have applied collector swarm tech and engineered it against reapers this would help bolster the "death by a thousand cuts" strategy.

It never seemed implausable that we could take on reapers with a united galaxy without wasting precious resources on some "wonder weapon" that no one understands, no, it seems beyond foolsih any military mind would consider it an option, you don't make gut descions in the military, everything is calculated risks.
 
Also would have had a contegincy plan for continuity of survival to make an "arc" ship with frozen embryos maybe geth allies, or skeleton crew to go out into space where there are no relays. travel far through dead space or even make dead zones of mass effect travel by knocking mass relays out of orbit into the vast distances between stars. with a plan to reseed life in a blind spot, they can't see everything if some protheans managed to hide so can we, and restart life once they retreat back to dark space, and train the next generation for the fight.

No infantry soldier would accept a bargain from an enemy or even think of surrending to it (I.E. Starchild) maybe some politician or civillian would, but soldiers know there are too many unknowns and risks, even with a quick informal mental risk assessment it seems beyond foolish to obey starkid who seems bent on having you commit suicide and mess with the laws of science and nature as we know them.

I'll still rather refuse the enemy, death before dishonor.

Modifié par Lazarus Cricket, 27 juin 2012 - 02:21 .

[MongoNYC]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...
Or do people still think the Reapers could be defeated conventionally?  

/shrug

Citing events from ME3 to support that Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally is as convincing as citing proof from the Bible that Jesus is real.

Without trodding on religion, that is essentially what you would be doing, yes?  

In ME3 as written Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally.  Agreed and accepted.

But that is not the same as saying ME3 could not have been written otherwise had Bioware not decided to go with the Crucible/Catalyst-as-only-option ending.

This.

So this.  I get that people want to argue the plot points from within the confines of the story.  But, take as tep back and look at it from the perspective of a self-contained piece of entertainment.  If they wanted to, the writers could have easily changed the parameters to suit a more conventional means of eradicating the Reapers.

Instead, they fell into the creative writing quicksand that is the deux ex machina and let it dictate how the story turned out.

[Fingertrip]

Han Shot First wrote...

I think it was put in the game specifically to debunk Indoctrination Theory. And it suceeds.

This will bait many.

[Erixxxx]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Ok, when you pick refusal everyone in our cycle dies, Reapers continue.
Now I see why you may pick this (you hate all the other options) so your told  the cycle after ours stops the Reapers.
They did this through Liara's capsule, this showed them how to build the crucible which would lead them to one of the three options you refused, and chose one.
This means all you do is kill everyone you know for no reason, hence the title name.

Did you watch the new Stargazer scene it triggers? The next Cycle defeats the Reapers thanks to Liara's box.

[HBC Dresden]

Actually, you can see the Reject ending as a full circle kind of thing. Judging from the post-credits scene, that cycle heeded Liara's warning kind of like how Shepard did with the Prothean Beacon. And in turn, that information allowed them to defeat the Reapers somehow.

[babachewie]

Refusal is a stupid and selfish choice. Condemn the whole galaxy cause of stupid principles doesnt matter when you're all dead anyway. People who are against destroy cause of supposed genocide off "one" species have no leg to stand on if you chose this. Control works and Synthesis works even though you basically die or lose your humanity. Refusal is a test of how stupid you and your shepard are. People complained about not having an option to say no. Well there it is. I hope people who seriously thinks its the right call are never truly in charge of anything higher than manager of a Dairy Queen.

Modifié par babachewie, 27 juin 2012 - 02:28 .

[priestess of blood]

M2S SOLID JOSH wrote...

as someone said on youtube- "refusal is just a big "f*ck you" from bioware to people who wanted a new ending"

Pretty much this.

[LegendaryBlade]

It's just Bioware giving us the middle finger.

[NoUserNameHere]

babachewie wrote...

Refusal is a stupid and selfish choice. Condemn the whole galaxy cause of stupid principles doesnt matter when you're all dead anyway. People who are against destroy cause of supposed genocide off "one" species have no leg to stand on if you chose this. Control works and Synthesis works even though you basically die or lose your humanity. Refusal is a test of how stupid you and your shepard are. People complained about not having an option to say no. Well there it is. I hope people who seriously thinks its the right call are never truly in charge of anything higher than manager of a Dairy Queen.

Now, now. The Reapers do get defeated eventually. The next cycle might not even need to use the Crucible.

You know who I don't want anywhere near a position of power? Synthesis fans. Not even at a Dairy Queen. "PREPARE THIS GELLATO FOR ASCENSION!" 

[cavs25]

babachewie wrote...

Refusal is a stupid and selfish choice. Condemn the whole galaxy cause of stupid principles doesnt matter when you're all dead anyway. People who are against destroy cause of supposed genocide off "one" species have no leg to stand on if you chose this. Control works and Synthesis works even though you basically die or lose your humanity. Refusal is a test of how stupid you and your shepard are. People complained about not having an option to say no. Well there it is. I hope people who seriously thinks its the right call are never truly in charge of anything higher than manager of a Dairy Queen.

is not any dumber than believing the enemy.  
Star kid: you shoot that tube and you kill us all!

Shepard: Really?

Star kid: Yep

shoots tube/tube explodes and shepard dies


Star kid: What a moron

[Lazarus Cricket]

babachewie wrote...

Refusal is a stupid and selfish choice. Condemn the whole galaxy cause of stupid principles doesnt matter when you're all dead anyway. People who are against destroy cause of supposed genocide off "one" species have no leg to stand on if you chose this. Control works and Synthesis works even though you basically die or lose your humanity. Refusal is a test of how stupid you and your shepard are. People complained about not having an option to say no. Well there it is. I hope people who seriously thinks its the right call are never truly in charge of anything higher than manager of a Dairy Queen.

I don't think you understand basic logic or military descion making. You calculate risks and you don't trust or believe the words of you opponets with out concrete proof of sincerity or of truth. Any descion for use of the crucible, even building it at all is foolish as there is no, no understanding at all, of its intended purpose or what it infact actually does.
You can't know that even it's destroy function doesn't have other side effects that may be a part of the reapers plan. It is simply a poorly thought out and designed ending, and the story arc with the crucible is lacking in logic as well.

Fighting might doom us, but if not using the crucible saves the next cycle and doesn't allow their plan to function, than that'll have to be the best victory their poor writing can deliver us.
Otherwise just flipping a coin and jumping on a beam could end up unleashing consequences that doom all future forms of life to some unnatural constructs desire of development

Modifié par Lazarus Cricket, 27 juin 2012 - 02:41 .