362 réponses à ce sujet

[LoboFH]

Refusal gives the concept of Free Will to the ending. I prefer other endings (Destruction and Synthesis) but Refusal was a very needed factor.

[Zaire Taylor]

I chose it because it's not killing everyone for no reason.  I knew that with Liara's data the next cycle would be able to destroy them.  Everyone in this cycle died so that we'd be the last to die at the hands of the Reapers.  Those deaths aren't in vain.

[crimsontotem]

John Epler wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

I would have liked it if after you rejected the catalyst, you would have seen your war assets go down fighting...

I would have, as well.

Given the restrictions on DLC, and the absolutely insane amount of work that would have gone into such a scene (IE, expect the EC sometime in December), I'm happy with what we got. I imagine that the ME team would have loved to do that too, but yeah. Resource/time restrictions are a very real thing.

Of all the endings, Control is still the most appropriate to my canon Shepard.

But to me? Refuse is the human option. It's making your own destiny and forging your own path. It's refusing the handouts of 'superior beings' (I don't trust Destroy - every other 'gift' the Reapers have offered, Mass Relays and helping the Geth has little hooks all over it) and choosing to go down fighting.

Plus, Refuse lets me believe that Zaeed is the next cycle's version of Javik. And that's a thought to keep me warm at night.

If you are going to go through time restriction don't make a false promise damn it

[ZackG312]

I think it should have showed more fighting between the forces and the Reapers

Modifié par ZackG312, 27 juin 2012 - 06:10 .

[Daverid]

The PREMISE and the Entire concept of the Endings is a load of Hogwash Bullcrap ..

They still left multiple Plot Holes .. Opened up many more Questions AND the way they covered most of the plot holes was laughable (Removing the Explosion from the Relays and Removing when you see Normandy's Engines Exploding anyone?)

BUT they did make THEIR terrible Endings a bit better and more conclusive...

But Refusal? No seriously, what they did with that was one of the most disgusting ways of treating a Fanbase in the history of Video Games. People had ALL the Codex and ME Scientific Knowledge to back up Claims as to why Shep could refuse, Call all Fleets to just keep fighting and ACTUALLY WIN.

But instead of offering this up and an option they Spat in the faces of their Players and Blatantly stated, "Here your Refusal Option, you wanted it, but HAHAHA our Artistic Vision didn't include this option even though it's entirely plausible, so F U, Reapers Win".

I think Synthesis was Vastly Improved, Control was Vastly Improved, Destroy still left COUNTLESS questions and opened up even more BS ...

But Refusal Ending + The Original Endings and the whole concept they were developed from is the Reason why I will never purchase another game from BioWare and EA in general. This is coming from someone who would happily list KOTOR1, DAO, ME1 and 2 as some of the best games of all time. Don't Give your Fans the middle Finger. It WILL NOT help your business.

[ClockworkSpectre]

I shot the starchild as soon as the conversation was over the first time I went through it. That results in the same thing as refusing. It wasn't great but at least they made it possible for the reapers to win this time, even if they totally phoned it in.

[kblaze13]

To me Refusal while still letting everyone in the current cycle be harvested or killed was the only real "paragon" choice of the 4 choices we get in the EC.

[PsyrenY]

Are people still complaining? Refusal is exactly what it should have been. You flip off the Reapers and choke on your pride, yet thanks to someone on your team having a little more foresight (Liara) your bullheaded Shepard doesn't **** things up for the next cycle. Perfect!

[Tombfyre09]

I just watched this on youtube... bioware really wasted their best chance to shut everyone up i think. they fleshed out the other choices... i guess. But refusal was missing 1/2.... it should have let ppl with 5000+ EMS get a straight up victory, while ppl without got that. This would have shut me up anyways...

Modifié par Tombfyre09, 27 juin 2012 - 06:23 .

[azerSheppard]

Refusal IS the dumbest choice in the game, it's up there with destroy and control.

[Megachaz]

John Epler wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

I would have liked it if after you rejected the catalyst, you would have seen your war assets go down fighting...

I would have, as well.

Given the restrictions on DLC, and the absolutely insane amount of work that would have gone into such a scene (IE, expect the EC sometime in December), I'm happy with what we got. I imagine that the ME team would have loved to do that too, but yeah. Resource/time restrictions are a very real thing.

Of all the endings, Control is still the most appropriate to my canon Shepard.

But to me? Refuse is the human option. It's making your own destiny and forging your own path. It's refusing the handouts of 'superior beings' (I don't trust Destroy - every other 'gift' the Reapers have offered, Mass Relays and helping the Geth has little hooks all over it) and choosing to go down fighting.

Plus, Refuse lets me believe that Zaeed is the next cycle's version of Javik. And that's a thought to keep me warm at night.

In my cycle, we woulda thrown 'im out the goddam airlock.

[DGMockingJay]

Refusal seems dumb, is dumb.. We did save the coming civilization.. But wait.. That was gonna happen anyway, refusal did not do anything to it.. U made the Crucible, just so u chose NOT TO USE IT?? It is dumbest choice ever. Only good thing came out of Refusal is u save the Relays for coming civilization. But U did destroy trilllions of life in the process... U really can't win in the game, can u??

Thank u BioWare, I really thought U couldn't do any worse than Synthesis, U proved me wrong..

Modifié par DGMockingJay, 27 juin 2012 - 06:31 .

[Uwagh]

      I made a post about the refusal ending but was directed here by a bioware employee.  Here's the abrigged version:

     I
feel the Refusal Ending was a lost opportunity to show Shepard for whom he/she
really is.  The Mass Effect Series for me embodies what it means to
overcome seemingly impossible odds.  It's about refusing to go down.
 When everyone else gives up, says it's hopeless, falls to the ground, you
stand up.  I let the original three endings slide because honestly, none
of those choices my Shepard would have accepted.  But the start of the
refusal ending was something I would have chosen.  Tell the star child to
go screw himself.  I feel there was an opportunity for Shepard to truly
show what he/she is but then it just ends there with Shepard standing alone,
watching the reapers destroy everything he's/she's fought for.  If Shepard
is the embodyment of freedom and chaos, his/her choice should reflect that, but
that scene of him/her at the end doesn't.  If I was Shepard, and the star
child said "so be it, the cycle continues," and armed with the
knowledge that he's controlling the reapers and the cycle, I would say,
"the hell it does," and then radio Hacket "don't care with how
this Catalyst is suppose to work, ram it so far up this citadel's ass and blow
the whole thing to hell."
     That could be the twist, not only does Shepard
choose freedom for all the races, he/she chooses it for the reapers as well.
 With the citadel damaged, the starchild's hold over the reapers would
waver.  If the final scene's room survived the blast then Shepard could do
what he/she does best and make an inspiring speech to the reapers.  Hell I
could see Harbinger swayed to Shepard side thinking "he's the only organic
that bested me, maybe there's something to him."  Have the reapers
turn on each other and fight.  Heck you could have some god fighting gods,
angels fighting angels symbology.  I would think if each reaper truly did hold
all the information, maybe even memories of the species that came before, they
would want to break the cycle as well.
     In this ending, it wouldn't be the magical
mcguffin that saves the day; it wouldn't be some omnipitent god-like entity we
encounter at the very last moment.  It would be because Shepard refuses to
go down, refuses to accept genocide and chooses freedom, chooses life.
 Chooses not just to stand there at the end, doing nothing.  The
possibility was there to show that Shepard refuses to accept all is lost even
when everything is pitch black.  But it wasn't taken.
     I guess to be honest, I find the refusal ending
to be the biggest disservice to the series because it says that in the end,
Shepard does nothing.  The point of the series to me is to never accept
that the choices that are given to you are the only ones out there.  If
you struggle, if you kick and scream and fight like hell, you may find another
way.  But after 3 games of Shepard doing this, in the end, he/she stands
there.  
 

[ghostz82]

What did everyone think that after you whine, complain, and insult bioware that they were gonna give you what you want. Personally I thought the original endings were good enough. They left you wandering and wanting more. How many perfect endings do you actually see in games seriously there's always critics. This time though fans went far as to insult and even try to implant their own ideas like the whole stupid indoctrination theory like that made them happy after they spent time and put effort into developing this game. Personally I hope bioware makes more dlc for the mass effect 3 campaign and another mass effect game in the near future. Please dont give up on the fans who actually enjoyed the game and didn't complain. After seeing the final cutscene with Shepard all banged up and taking a breath I thought there was a great chance for a mass effect 4 with shepard coming back but after all this crap that went on in the news with fans and this new refusal option it dosent seem likely. Who knows if bioware will even want to. I hope I'm wrong. I like the endings just the way they were we didn't need this extended cut. It just took time from maybe other campaign DLC they could have created that fans who actually like the game the way it was could be enjoying at the moment.

Modifié par ghostz82, 27 juin 2012 - 06:54 .

[OblivionDawn]

Of course Refusal is stupid.

Alot of people wanted to completely reject the Starkid when they had no real reason to.

Lets look at it logically here. You've gathered the bulk of the galaxy's military, you've devoted an unbelievable amount of resources to building the Crucible, and you've dumped the whole thing into the most Reaper-filled system in the galaxy. The desperation of those acts is only justified if you use the Crucible to kill/stop all the Reapers before they kill you.

But people still wanted to say no AFTER the point of no return, and Bioware listened to the fans. The outcome was entirely expected.

[DarkerCompanion]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Refusal is the most dumb choice in Mass Effect.

Its what the people wanted. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of people wanted to just argue and whine and refuse the do anything at Starchild. The resulting ending is what happens.

I hope they are happy.

[jds1bio]

DarkerCompanion wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Refusal is the most dumb choice in Mass Effect.

Its what the people wanted. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of people wanted to just argue and whine and refuse the do anything at Starchild. The resulting ending is what happens.

I hope they are happy.

I am, thanks.  And I think the other three endings are (now) all interesting in their own way.

Modifié par jds1bio, 27 juin 2012 - 06:48 .

[Iorwerth]

Honestly I don't think that the ending in general fits in with the rest of the three games thematically. My Shepard was used to doing the impossible, he spent three years flipping death the bird (longer if you chose the sole survivor background), he united nearly every species in the galaxy (think of how hard unifying earth is and multiply that by a few trillion people), he ended wars and discontent centuries in the making. To me the whole series was about overcoming the impossible (Reapers) through unity and cooperation (yeah I was a paragon, every time). I haven't been able to reconcile the original endings to that.

That said, keeping the original endings, this new refuse option is almost exactly what I would have wanted added. First, I'm glad that the mass relays are repairable, because causing the end of galactic civilization destroying them really isn't a paragon thing to do. The refuse option allows me to take a stand, to make a choice on my own terms. I can tell the collective consciousness of the reapers that I sure as hell have no reason to trust him, that I'm certainly not committing a genocide to stop his genocides and that I have no intention of developing his notion of benevolent balance.

The problem with refusal is that it only allows me to challenge the starchild's choices and not his logic. As you say John, I don't think that we could win in a conventional battle against the Reapers, but I cannot challenge his assertion by pointing out that we've developed a peace in a 3 century long war between synthetics and organics. I cannot point out that AIs (EDI) can feel alive and even love an organic. Solely by uniting the galaxy in such a fashion, I've disproven his basic assumptions, but I'm not allowed to talk him down. Hell, I'm Commander Shepard, I argue with villains until they commit suicide and I give some damn good motivational speeches. The refuse option gave (my) Shepard back his backbone, but unfortunately not his characteristic charisma. That is the thing that bothers me most about the refuse option, I still don't try bring up the theme of unity which, to me, was the backbone of the entire series until the last five minutes.

So really, my problems with the ending weren't going to be resolved by the dlc and I had accepted that, but that refuse option came close, for which I was really pleased. Honestly in my mind, I'll probably end up telling myself that I talked him down, the Reapers shut down, and I either was pressured into the human councilorship or retired to various beachfront properties on my friends' planets. Overall I feel better about all this now, there are always things that could've gone better, but the ending dlc worked out well enough for me. It really helps to hear from you guys and know that you are listening and I hope you all aren't feeling too much pressure over all this, most of us probably have our own canons for Star Wars and we love that stuff (seriously, that and history books were my childhood), so there isn't much new here.

[Gigaheart]

DGMockingJay wrote...

Refusal seems dumb, is dumb.. We did save the coming civilization.. But wait.. That was gonna happen anyway, refusal did not do anything to it.. U made the Crucible, just so u chose NOT TO USE IT?? It is dumbest choice ever. Only good thing came out of Refusal is u save the Relays for coming civilization. But U did destroy trilllions of life in the process... U really can't win in the game, can u??

Thank u BioWare, I really thought U couldn't do any worse than Synthesis, U proved me wrong..

nuff said. i also loved how Shpeard was talking about freedom and that he/she have no right to choose for everyone when everone was about to die and acted like it was ok to screw up everything calactic civilizations worked for. really this ending should unlock n7 trollface helmet in wardrobe.

[Necrotron]

kblaze13 wrote...

To me Refusal while still letting everyone in the current cycle be harvested or killed was the only real "paragon" choice of the 4 choices we get in the EC.

Which is sad.  My sense of morality for my Paragon made this the only viable choice, but...it just gives you a glorified game over sequence.

The game is all about imperfect choices, it would seem...

I really, really wanted a paragon interrupt sequence for the starchild.  I wanted to prove that we were capable of being the solution ourselves, like in Babylon 5.  The ending is still quite unsatisfying, but at least the original vision of the ending makes a little more sense. 

Modifié par Bathaius, 27 juin 2012 - 06:56 .

[ArchLord James]

I am one of the people who originally said "I would rather stay true to my principles, and die fighting the reapers, than to trust the reapers choose to implement one of their solutions!" I found it insulting that after seeing the atrocities that the reapers have committed over the course of three games, that I would then be forced help the reapers enforce their new solution on the galaxy.

Having said that, I actually love that the refusal option is there, but my Shepard would not actually choose refusal anymore and I will tell you why. The reason I leaned toward refusal before EC is because I understood very little about what the catalyst and the crucible and reapers really were? Shepard seemed to just trust the reapers and not ask any questions and that infuriated me to point where I would rather just tell starchild to fack off.

However, what an amazing difference a few lines of extra dialogue can make to make the endings easier to accept for me. Understanding what the catalyst and reapers are was very important, and understanding how shepard docking the crucible with the catalyst actually changed its core programming made me feel like, "ok these solution may not be optimal but they aren't really the reapers choices either!" The crucible combining with the reapers (catalyst) created new options and solutions that weren't avaialable before. Shepard did actually accomplish this it is NOT ALL THE POWER OF THE CATALYST ALONE ANYMORE! Shepard's fight to use the crucible actually caused this change in the catalyst and so shepard gets credit its not 100% deus ex machina!

The other thing that made the endings bearable was that after each option was presented I had the option to tell the catalyst why I don't like that solution, and then I had the catalyst tell me "OK BUT IF YOU DON'T USE THE CRUCIBLE THE CYCLE CONTINUES!" That dialouge alone was sorely needed because it made me realize, whether hes telling the truth or not, it was at least a chance. Whether he was telling the truth about RED destroy ending, the geth would die if chose red or if i refused they would die anyways along with everybody else. I made sure to express why I wouldn't chose each of the 3 RBG choices and the catalyst continued to drive home the point that if I didn't act the cycle would continue.

Then the catalyst said, TIME TO DECIDE! And I refused again, he then basically said "are you sure you want the reapers cycle to continue and everything you fought for will die for nothing?" at this point I finally said, you know what? A chance is better than no chance and I chose blue! I still couldn't bring myself to kill EDI and geth (making legions sacrifice for nothing).

TL:DR - My point is that, I am glad refuse is in there, but because the starchild EC dialouge is so much more dynamic, I didn't even find that I wanted to choose that ending anymore!

Modifié par ArchLord James, 27 juin 2012 - 06:53 .

[Eugenious]

You guys even know whats more dumb....Bioware placing this option in...but in the end...it says...

Congrats you have eliminated the Reaper threat....

Srsly...does Bioware not QA anything.....

[Necrotron]

Eugenious wrote...

You guys even know whats more dumb....Bioware placing this option in...but in the end...it says...

Congrats you have eliminated the Reaper threat....

Srsly...does Bioware not QA anything.....

Seems a little nitpicky.  You did eliminate the reaper threat through your actions, by working with Liara to have the time capsule saved for the future cycle that defeated the Reapers.

[MaleQuariansFTW]

M2S SOLID JOSH wrote...

as someone said on youtube- "refusal is just a big "f*ck you" from bioware to people who wanted a new ending"

People said they wanted to refuse starkids options. They let you do that. How is that them saying eff you?

Modifié par MaleQuariansFTW, 27 juin 2012 - 07:00 .

[PsyrenY]

DarkerCompanion wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Refusal is the most dumb choice in Mass Effect.

Its what the people wanted. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of people wanted to just argue and whine and refuse the do anything at Starchild. The resulting ending is what happens.

I hope they are happy.

I lol'ed so hard when I saw it. I was seriously in tears.

And I bet TAO picked it