88 réponses à ce sujet

[kalbaern]

The CEP has been a floundering project for a couple of years now. Its time "We" as a Community did something about it before it dies off completely. New members with the following skill sets are desired.

- Creature Modelling/Animation
- Tileset Creation/Merging
- Hak Compiling/Merging
- 2da and TLK Compiling/Merging

Additionally, there are likely many folk in the NWN Community at large that while they may lack the time or even desire to help with the CEP, I'd ask if they'd consider at least helping to pass on some of their skill sets. Folk that can give instruction on any of the above regarding custom content in general would help spring new life into not just the CEP, but projects like the CTP and Project Q as well.

Whether you plan on contributing or not, I urge all here to register on the newest CEP Forums that Amethyst Dragon had put for us. Voices/Input on what to fix and how to proceed are just as important as who does what. So come, register and speak up.

Rather than make a lengthy post here, anyone wondering over the motivation for this post can visit the link below.
nwncep.forumotion.com/t36-do-we-roll-over-or-fight-on

[Malishara]

As a CEP Team member, I can state that the CEP Team has NOT authorized any such action. Anyone who wishes to contribute may of course, request to do so. I am sure that anyone who truly wishes to help will be welcomed.

[NWN_baba yaga]

I am afraid just thinking about being in charge for the tilesets alone. As an example I would throw out the whole nwncq stuff because (the topic rises again) it does not fit in with the rest of the nwn art style in general. Take modern tilesets like LoWs and _six work, which are outstanding beatifull and simultaneously fit in very well. And so the list would go on and on. I base my decisions on trying to see the whole deal;)

I can only contribute my creations, share my knowledge and helping here and there with a few models. But your appeal is realy justified (I read the CEP leaders reply) and it´s strange how unresponsible (imo) it is towards all the PW and modulebuilders. Also the compatibility seems to be a problem here and then...

That all means in no way that im taking sides, just my 2cents

So anyway good luck;)

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 26 juin 2012 - 09:07 .

[kalbaern]

Malishara wrote...

As a CEP Team member, I can state that the CEP Team has NOT authorized any such action. Anyone who wishes to contribute may of course, request to do so. I am sure that anyone who truly wishes to help will be welcomed.

Actually, the CEP Team (if you call it such) has asked for assistance. As far as claiming however that "anyone who truly wishes to help will be welcomed", evidence proves otherwise so far.

Despite "Barry's" and apparently now Malishara's unwillingness to work with others, the CEP is and will always be a "Community" Project. To help ensure it does remain so, I encourage ... no, make that plea for others in the NWN Community to visit there, sign up and chime in. If you can help, volunteer. If you help is rejected, so be it. My hope is that in time, given enough interest and responses, the project will once again grow and actually serve the NWN Community as was the intention of the CEP's original founders.

Even if you cannot or do not wish to offer assistance to them, sign up anyhow. Only by joining and voicing your actual concerns and requests can they ever be made known. Sadly, the current CEP Leadership boycotts these pages. hopefully, in time, that too will be resolved. Until then, I once again encourage folks to visit and join the CEP Forums now located at the following link:

nwncep.forumotion.com/forum

[NWN_baba yaga]

Every single piece of content in the CEP belongs to the original creator/owner and is only pakaged or added with permission, nothing else. No CEP person or project has the authority to decide what to do with all these creations. And to me the spirit of the CEP is dead because the once good idea to create a compilation of other artists fairness to share is long gone and now its only about who has what right and what will be done when person x tries to seek a way to make things working for his PW... This point here is what realy bothers me:sick:



Maybe you cep module builders free yourself from that and create a R (real)CEP with the original spirit in mind.

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 28 juin 2012 - 04:28 .

[_six]

Yawn.

[NWN_baba yaga]

I´m feeling an old heat uprising but control of baba yaga is fine now!!! Charms himself<3 edit for being funny...

diademus: lets have a fight and set him straight...
babayaga: no precious, we now serve the master precious...

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 28 juin 2012 - 05:41 .

[s e n]

lolol

[_six]

To clarify, as baba seems to think my yawn was directed at him: it wasn't, and in principle I agree with his comments on the CEP.

I just wonder how the CEP leadership think its operable to work on a NWN content package whilst going out of their way to avoid the NWN community at large, presumably because of a perception that everyone's at war with them. Thing is, I can't see anyone around here who's actively anti-CEP. And I've been the longest time artist in a group that's long been perceived as their rivals. Which... I suppose we are in as much as that Q have a similar, but more artistically oriented goal. I remember morikahn offered to give them all Q's fixes to the CODI content back in the day, and were told that they "didn't need them." (FYI, he told me he'd found some that they were lacking)

This whole negative attitude has become rather old hat. Particularly when there's not many of the older CC people left.

Modifié par _six, 28 juin 2012 - 07:59 .

[NWN_baba yaga]

forgive and forget:kissing: ...precious

[_six]

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

forgive and forget:kissing: ...precious

I must admit, I'm really curious what you said that made you censor yourself.

[NWN_baba yaga]

I mentioned how F***** up it is trying to get an old module you´re interested in playing with a cep attached to it where you have to go through the process what version is backward compatible and redownload the whole thing again just for 2 different tiny modules. And further along the lines of "before you act silly do no comment at all". Sorry _six but i think they should care about this situation too because lots of interesting modules are not playable for me anymore and your comment was as helpfull as whatever.

And i changed my reply to my conversation between me and me;)

so i misunderstood your reply and well blah blah.

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 28 juin 2012 - 08:29 .

[SHOVA]

I side with kalbaern on this one. Plain and simple, this community uses the C.E.P., this community has offered help to them, this community deserves better than it has gotten from some of the members of the current team, who may have forgotten that the C in the C.E.P. stands for community.

[Pstemarie]

Just curious - if the CEP Team were to be "replaced" by a team from the Community that didn't have the backing of the original team, what would become of all the content the "old team" have produced exclusively for the CEP?

Be careful what you wish for...

Modifié par Pstemarie, 28 juin 2012 - 08:52 .

[_six]

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

I mentioned how F***** up it is trying to get an old module you´re interested in playing with a cep attached to it where you have to go through the process what version is backward compatible and redownload the whole thing again just for 2 different tiny modules

That's a good point. And the way they reacted when a certain community member who may or may not have posted in this thread just a little way above tried to carry on the 1.x CEP and got shot down by the CEP team wasn't necessarily good operation either.

Though on that topic, wouldn't a single "downgrade" hak that contains the 1.x 2das modified to work to put on top of the 2.x content do the trick?

[NWN_baba yaga]

The CEP would need a carefull planed rearrangement of all the "free for all" content and its linkage leaving out the CEP Team only specials. Its a huge undertaking but what choice is left for dedicated builders that gets no or nonconstructive support.

Yeah _six the idea for a downgrade pakage is the best way to go imo. But how much tedious time consuming work that 2da, itp and tlk editing is uh ...

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 28 juin 2012 - 09:07 .

[henesua]

The way to solve this problem is to start fresh. Abandon the existing CEP, and come up with a new model for how you handle a community expansion pack. Obviously the existing model is a failure.

I don't see any issue with creating the final fix for CEP 1 and 2 compatibility issues but its a seperate project for posterity's sake, and isn't forward thinking.

Looking forward a new CEP team should consider why the CEP project has failed as it has. The answer to me is obvious. It collapsed under its own weight. And I think the way forward is to manage a leaner project. Figure out what the absolute essential upgrades are that could be shared by all projects. Or figure out how to make interoperable pieces for a CEP. A CEP phenotype project for example would still be a huge project, but could be an essential HAK for all modules considering how time consuming and large getting all the heads, and clothing, animations, phenotypes etc..... is.

Anyway... just my thoughts.

[Pstemarie]

Maybe what's really needed is a Community based project to upgrade the modules to CEP 2.x compliance. That way the CEP Team can continue to soldier on and a new team can focus on doing what's necessary to get those dusty modules upto snuff.

[kalbaern]

henesua wrote...

The way to solve this problem is to start fresh. Abandon the existing CEP, and come up with a new model for how you handle a community expansion pack. Obviously the existing model is a failure.

I don't see any issue with creating the final fix for CEP 1 and 2 compatibility issues but its a seperate project for posterity's sake, and isn't forward thinking.

Looking forward a new CEP team should consider why the CEP project has failed as it has. The answer to me is obvious. It collapsed under its own weight. And I think the way forward is to manage a leaner project. Figure out what the absolute essential upgrades are that could be shared by all projects. Or figure out how to make interoperable pieces for a CEP. A CEP phenotype project for example would still be a huge project, but could be an essential HAK for all modules considering how time consuming and large getting all the heads, and clothing, animations, phenotypes etc..... is.

Anyway... just my thoughts.

While I still have a glimmer of hope that the CEP as a true "Community Project" can be salvaged, I'm also a realist and agree with Henesu that perhaps a fresh look is needed. It couldn't hurt. I think the idea of wrapping up version 2 of the CEP and starting a fresh set as a CEP 3.0 or even a new name with better planning and organisazation has lots of merits. If such were ever done, I'd personally like to see more cooperation with other projects like Project Q and the CTP.

In regards to the CTP specifically, I was fine when the CEP decided to expand tileset options ... so long as those options did not exist as a completed package elsewhere. The Dwarven Halls the CEP added kind of irked me do to already have been a part of the CTP at the time. Expanding the Bioware tilesets is one thing, but when they added the Dwarven Halls, they violated their own guidelines. Its a shame. It just created a rift between the CEP and the CTP in the end. What's worse, the CEP adaption isn't really fit for use by most builders if it will hold hostile encounters. Why? Because PCs and NPCs alike can aim missile weapons and spells through solid walls. That makes it pretty hard to setup challenging and suprising encounters IMO.

In regards to Project Q, again, there's no sound reasons that the two could exist side by side and compliment each other. Sure, there are "reasons" they can not, just not "sound reasons". Egos and tempers collided and in the end make the community at large suffer for the actions of only a few. Inorder to thrive, the present CEP or any successor HAS to go out of its way to at least attempt to coexist with other projects and them with the CEP.

The past few years, I've lobbied again and again for the CEP Team to recruit fresh blood and try and get back some old hands. That's no big secret. Sadly, for that same time period the project has continued to shrink. Many that had been members in the past have given up. Why? I'll tell you only what I've been told personally by a few of them. They won't be bothered to work with the current leader. Others that have skillsets to aid the CEP have declined for those same reasons as well. Its a shame really. A true "Community" asset and one of the main reasons why NWN has lasted this long is being held in a deathgrip by one or a few individuals too selfish and egotisical to work as a true team and for the community at large.

The CEP at one time WAS a true community project. PW Admins, Builders, Scripters and even players used to ask questions that were responded to and make suggestions that the CEP either took on or declined with at least a reason as to why not. All that changed under Barry's "leadership". I use that term, "leadership", loosely. Its been more of a dictatorship. Legitimate questions go unanswered when asked. Bug reports have been ignored constantly. Suggestions uncommentted on, and most recently, Barry himself has stated he'll have nothing to do with these boards nor the other previous CEP Forums. Well, enough is enough.

I've had lots of quiet support both here and elsewhere lately. I thank folks for it. Instead of quiet support however, I'd like to me individuals that feel the same claim it outloud as well. Write to past CEP Members as I have. Convince them to return. If you've skills that the CEP can use, let them know and make an honest effort to help. There is still time for the Community at large to save the CEP.

I've had a few accuse me of trying to take over the CEP myself. That's actually pretty funny. I'm the first to admit I'm ill suited personally to such a task. That however does not mean I won't back "others". Like most of the NWN Community my wishes are pretty simple. 1) Keep me informed. Give me an occasional heads up as to what is "coming soon". PW Builders and Admins need to know these things so we can plan accordingly. 2) Respect me enough to respond. Don't ignore my bug reports or complaints. Don't leave suggestions left out to rot with never a reply. Lastly ... 3) Keep your promises. If something is claimed to be "backwards" compatible, then it should infact remain so. If something added is found to be unworkable, then remove it and stop wasting resources and time. I'll understand if there's a msitake. "Stuff" happens. The best intentions, no matter how well thought out still often fail. I can deal with that as can most others. In short, what I and most others I know desire, is what the CEP under Barry's supposed leadership has failed miserably to provide. It wasn't always this way. It need not continue either.

Anyone of us here will get on each others nerves or step on some toes at some point. It cannot be helped unless you merely sit on the fence and never comment. It's human nature. It's a given. It'll happen. Most of us will "get over it" and still work with each other for the common good. That's the difference. In this case, the common good translates to preserving and revitalizing the CEP in one form or another. Sign up, speak out and keep the faith.

nwncep.forumotion.com/forum

I encourage all here, whether they agree with my own views or not to sign up and chime in. If not, then don't complain later. *brings to mind all the folk he knows over the years that have complained about "Bush", "Clinton", "Oboma", etc..., but never once even bothered to vote*

[TheExcimer-500]

The CEP has not "failed".
Please be patient, we'll be in touch with a status update on the project soon.

[TheExcimer-500]

Leading a rally cry at this time is going to be counter-productive to your goals. Please devote your energy to helping. Right now, I would like a list of these "bugs" to be posted on the CEP forum so that I can use my time to fix them instead of scanning these forums for them.

Thank you and please be patient.

[Rolo Kipp]

<looking around for otr...>

Personally, I'd like to revive the idea I posted in Tools & Plugins.
Make a Module Optimizer and it's dark twin, the Module Deoptimizer.

Builders Deoptimize their entire library of haks (which means a smart 2DA/filename collator).
Builders build their module without worrying about which hak had what.
Builder's finish (with version control) Module and run the MOptimizer.
MOptimizer strips hak down to module-specific content (with version control).
Player installs MOptimized module. At installation, MOptimizer validates MOptimized hak with module. If not valid, builds or downloads correct hak.

I simply can not believe with all this talent and all this understanding of the EFF file structure that we can not make a wrapper for NwN that can intelligently handle content. Working with 2DAs is not *difficult*, it's tedious. Exactly what computers were made to handle.

And all the heat and excitment the CEP vs Q vs Mothra vs Ultraman threads are really predicated on the assumption that no one will ever automate version/content control for NwN.

And, yeah, I like modular haks. On the builder side.
On the server side I like one lean hak.
On the player side, I like one lean hak.

And those are *my* strange little thoughts. :-P

<...'cuz he thinks around corners, too>

[henesua]

Rolo, that would be interesting and would be the preferred way of packaging content in NWN.

But who is going to do this? And who is going to compile the total archive of all NWN content? Who decides what is a new version of an art asset?

I would prefer that a project like this replace the CEP, but it is a large project and would require better web services (its essentially a data project) than the vault is currently offereing. Kinda like a better Google Warehouse hooked into SVN.

Also, a builder would still need to add their "tophak" to the mix since 2das are more than just content lists, but can be very useful for modifying game behaviors in module specific ways.

(I slimmed down my haks once by hand.... what a PITA)

[Rolo Kipp]

<looking like...>

henesua wrote...
Rolo, that would be interesting and would be the preferred way of packaging content in NWN.

But who is going to do this? And who is going to compile the total archive of all NWN content? Who decides what is a new version of an art asset?

Actually.... Funky & Virusman pointed me at Ruby and the Nwn-lib. Which I am learning in a back-burner capacity.
And I went and started the 
NwN Custom Content site (currently empty) with the idea of
1) datamining every official file for every official resource and
2) building a db of said resources that not only listed/displayed it but also allowed d/l of elemental pieces.

Re: versioning control. Heh. A bit over my depth there. *Kinda* hoping for help... down the road, anyway :-)

I would prefer that a project like this replace the CEP, but it is a large project and would require better web services (its essentially a data project) than the vault is currently offereing. Kinda like a better Google Warehouse hooked into SVN.

I don't really want to replace CEP. I want to obviate the need for CEP haks, but the original mission of CEP was to expand the content available to NwN. That is the mission of Project Q and CTP and... and the CCC. CEP has just kinda gotten away from that mission.

Yeah, it would need work and it would be a labor of love and it's all far too much for me to do by myself. OTOH, I'm *starting* on it. And intend to slog ahead.

Also, a builder would still need to add their "tophak" to the mix since 2das are more than just content lists, but can be very useful for modifying game behaviors in module specific ways.

Not "need" to. "May". I completely agree that what you *can* do with 2DAs is absolutely astounding.

I'll even go further in that content that is common to a majority of modules might attain "patch" status and be incorporated without trimming by the MOptimizer. Alternatively, the MOptimizer, as a wrapper for the launcher, may build the hak at run-time (synching with server for multi-player), incorporating the newest and best content uploads,

(I slimmed down my haks once by hand.... what a PITA)

I would think it'd be a pain in the fingers... <figure of speech, wizard>
Ahhh...

<...his head is going to explode>

[henesua]

Rolo Kipp wrote...

I don't really want to replace CEP. I want to obviate the need for CEP haks, but the original mission of CEP was to expand the content available to NwN. That is the mission of Project Q and CTP and... and the CCC. CEP has just kinda gotten away from that mission.

I meant in terms of on what people in the community spend their time. Rather than see a new CEP team arise, I'd rather a project like this get some resources applied to it.

Maybe you could slim down your project to just work with the Community Content Challenge. Perhaps that would be a good beginning, and eliminate the need to do datamining. You've got all the data.