88 réponses à ce sujet

[SHOVA]

I am for a new C.E.P. V3, for a number of reasons. I believe it is due, simply because so many things have changed since v1 was first released. While Barry said that the C.E.P. was intended to be backwards compatible, since v2_4 came out it has not been, so to me that argument is moot. The current version breaks the older versions. Even the latest quick fix to 4_a, still causes problems with earlier things. Reporting those issues is a exercise in futility with the current administration. It is met with silence, or worse. That does nothing for our community, let alone for the new people joining us.

There are a number of other issues that a V3 could solve, from my own list:
Naming the haks in order of how they are added.
Smaller haks available to down load, in addition to the massive hak set.
add blueprints as separate haks, broken up by type.
separation of haks by type. a placeable, creature, pc-part, items, etc.
Documentation of everything, searchable and available to the community.
And, the changes necessary to work with other hak sets. Q, CTP, the CCC etc.
The additions of current PW extras if they so desire.
The resolution to play nicely with others, to check egos and to work for the community.

A v3 does require a rebuild of PWs, something I know is daunting and time consuming. However CEP2 did this very thing, and the community not only survived but embraced it. V3 could be stunning. V3 could breathe new life in this community.

[henesua]

Agree. Whoever has been lurking in the wings unwilling to deal with the current CEP team should break away and start their own project.

[Shadooow]

TheExcimer-500 wrote...

The CEP has not "failed".

Oh yes it did. Who is now willing to use it? Newbie maybe who doesn't know all those issues around it yet. And those were several in past, and they all was trying to get them solved here in these forums - but they didn't get answer from CEP team actually.

I for one was a big enemy of CEP2 at one time, thats not secret, you probably still have me on list and its one reason that you also doesn't care about my project. And interesting is that happened exactly what I was warning in that time, because nobody even wants new update, don't you get it?

Really who use current CEP2 now? Maybe those who were part of the team in past. Others rather stayed with older version and they are not very satisfied with it either. More skilled builders rather excluded CEP and made their own haks (Sinfar case for example). New builders prefer Q from what I've talked with some of them.

Thats the true situation you probably not know about TheExcimer.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 29 juin 2012 - 06:53 .

[The Amethyst Dragon]

...Who is now willing to use it?...

...Really who use current CEP2 now? Maybe those who were part of the team in past. Others rather stayed with older version and they are not very satisfied with it either. More skilled builders rather excluded CEP and made their own haks (Sinfar case for example). New builders prefer Q from what I've talked with some of them...

I use CEP 2.4 (and a lot of it), along with much other content I've found on the Vault, plus my own custom content.  After 7+ years working on my PW, I would consider myself a "skilled builder" (or even a "more skilled builder").

I'm not a CEP team member, just a community member.




Regarding "backwards campatibility": 

There was a break between versions 1.x and 2.0 (or 2.1, can't remember what I was told by a current CEP member).  Since that time, there is a different team in place.

CEP 2.4 is backwards compatible with versions back to at least 2.1.  Any player with the latest version can play in any module made with versions the same or earlier than their current installation (back to 2.1).

Because a specific situation has been mentioned before with regards to this (builder(s) with version 2.4 installed working on a module that uses 2.3), here's a couple quick solutions:

A) pull copies of CEP2.3 2da files into the cep2_custom.hak file (or other custom top hak just for building), which will "blind" the toolset to new things added in version 2.4.

install full CEP 2.3 -> rename hak folder to "hak_cep23" -> make new hak folder -> install full CEP 2.4 -> rename the two hak folders as needed for building or playing.



While I would normally just lurk on a thread going this direction, the text quoted above prompted a reply.

I bid you all a good night (or morning, or afternoon, or whatever time it is at your location).

Modifié par The Amethyst Dragon, 29 juin 2012 - 07:34 .

[TheExcimer-500]

"Whoever has been lurking in the wings unwilling to deal with the current CEP team should break away and start their own project. "

You are of course free to do so. However, you do not have my permission to use any material in the CEP as your starting point. Several hundred of the models in CEP were edited by me to fix bugs or improve textures, a hundred or so models/textures were created by me for use in the CEP only. I'm sure the other CEP Team members also feel the same way about all their work as well.

I suggest you start off by downloading the materials you want from their original haks and spend all the time and care as I did. It's a lot of fun and the community thanks you over and over again for it by posters just like yourself. Don't forget to get in touch with those authors to obtain their permission first!

So good luck to you with that.

As for comments from other teams, imagine how you would react if someone else decided to repackage your work without permission. I am grateful for all the authors who gave their permission for their work to be included in the CEP. But what I feel is being stated here by a few is a desire to rip-apart our project and doing so would injure the community.

Modifié par TheExcimer-500, 29 juin 2012 - 01:03 .

[henesua]

Excimer, anyone is free to do what I suggest. I don't understand why you felt inclined to chime in about that.

[Hellfire_RWS]

TheExcimer-500 wrote...

 you do not have my permission to use any material in the CEP as your starting point. Several hundred of the models in CEP were edited by me to fix bugs or improve textures, a hundred or so models/textures were created by me for use in the CEP only. I'm sure the other CEP Team members also feel the same way about all their work as well.

Hmm. I think I have heard all this before somewhere.

Does CEP still have a website? Last time I checked, I still was not being credited for my content (been a long time since I checked)
I'm sure the oversight has been fixed by now, I would just like to check.

Edit. I found the forums, it was in a earlier post. Who should I contact. again. to have the credits updated?
One of my creatures is still showing as(Still searching for original author)

The others have been updated, thank you.

Modifié par Hellfire_RWS, 29 juin 2012 - 02:25 .

[3RavensMore]

Wow, can you feeeeeel the love on this thread?  I agree with AD.  I've been building since NWN came out, and CEP forms the backbone of my PW -- and I'm no newbie.  I have a ton of other content, but CEP has been a great resource over the years as well.

The CEP team -- in whatever incarnation it is currently in -- owes the community nothing more than what they've already given us.  To demand that they do, and feel entitled to "take over" their work without their permission is the antithesis of what it means to have a community of custom content creators.

Does anyone harbor ideas of taking over someone else's PW without their permission, just because it's not been updated in a while?  Would people feel entitled to do that with Q because they've been waiting for 1.5 for what they feel is too long?  Would they "take over" someone's WIP tileset without the author's permission?  Or some other CC that they author(s) has been very, very slow at completing/updating?

I'm trying not to rant, but…  Personalities aside, hard work demands respect, and respect should include deference to the CC authors wishes.

[kalbaern]

3RavensMore wrote...

Wow, can you feeeeeel the love on this thread?  I agree with AD.  I've been building since NWN came out, and CEP forms the backbone of my PW -- and I'm no newbie.  I have a ton of other content, but CEP has been a great resource over the years as well.

The CEP team -- in whatever incarnation it is currently in -- owes the community nothing more than what they've already given us.  To demand that they do, and feel entitled to "take over" their work without their permission is the antithesis of what it means to have a community of custom content creators.

Does anyone harbor ideas of taking over someone else's PW without their permission, just because it's not been updated in a while?  Would people feel entitled to do that with Q because they've been waiting for 1.5 for what they feel is too long?  Would they "take over" someone's WIP tileset without the author's permission?  Or some other CC that they author(s) has been very, very slow at completing/updating?

I'm trying not to rant, but…  Personalities aside, hard work demands respect, and respect should include deference to the CC authors wishes.

No one here actually claimed any intentions of of taking over the CEP or using it as a base for another project. "Excimer" warned against it, but no one had claimed they intended to. "Baba-Yaga" actually commented on how re-rounding up all the old resources would be required and that anything CEP specific could be left out if someone started a new project.

Some will always leap to a conclussion they "assume" based on past experiences elsewhere I suppose.

"ShaDoOoW's" claim that no one will use the CEP is just plain silly as well. A few PWs choose not use it or choose a specific version over another for any number of reasons, but far more, both old and new do use the CEP and will likely continue to. 

With the return of "Excimer-500" to the CEP Team, I myself have a small glimmer of hope yet. It'll however take more than a few bug fixes to regain the trust of many in the NWN Community. Most of the CEP's recent issues were based upon the leadership thumbing it's noses at the NWN Community at large. Only time will tell. We also need to now allow "them" that time in peace awhile.

[SHOVA]

The CEP team did not create everything in the CEP, they add it in, and tweeked it. By their own admission, we are free to use the original content, just as they did, and by extension We should be free to use the original CEPv1 content as well, since the current team took over for the original CEP team. While I agree with Raven in the spirit of her argument, there is just a valid counter arguement that TheExcimer-500 posted. By his post, the privilege of working on the CEPv2 team is a burden. Complaints for their time, reports of errors, problems and such is seen as destructive, rather than an attempt to improve. That mindset has been shown by most of the current members, here, and on their multiple forums. The fact that the leader of the current CEP team will not post, or visit these boards speaks volumes to what he thinks of this community, and the game for which the CEP is for.

Respect is given to the CEP team, by the use of its content. Most PWs use it. Most would like their questions, suggestions, and even bug reports heard, accepted as factual, and responded to without name calling, threats of I'll quit, and other childish behavior. When the current team begins to show some respect to the community they have chosen to be a part of, and to serve, yes serve as the CEP is the backbone of this communities on line play, and was so when they took over for team 1, then perhaps the talk of replacing them, or making a different core community hakset will shift to helping and improving the CEPv2. The sad truth is, this isn't about a hakset, or the community anymore, its community politics. The problem with politics is simple, what is best for the community gets left in the dust. Members of the community get turned off by the fighting, and as a whole, the community suffers.

Fixing the CEPv2_4a in most peoples opinion my not be warranted. Perhaps you are happy with the current CEP Team dynamic.Your opinion is just as valid as the members who disagree. however while Team 2 did add new, and create custom content for the V2s they did so in the spirit of the CEP1, for the community to use. Demands that the community use it only in this package, or as released or not at all goes against the charter of the CEP. It goes against the sharing of CC. It goes against the customization of the game its for, and it has all ready been ignored, as most PWs changed that custom in some way, either by adding to it, or removing things.

[KlatchainCoffee]

I can only say that a someone who had used both CEP and other things people have uploaded on the vault, I have a lot of admiration for whoever produced and compiled custom content for others to use. This is really what NWN toolset is all about and, unfortunately, it looks like it may be some time yet before anything of the same calibre comes out.

I have witnessed several PWs go down due to personality clashes and mismanagement, so not sure there is much I can say other than - if people only put their emotions and antagonism aside, a lot of stuff could get done much to everyone's benefit.

Either way, if would be good for people to chill out, stepping away from seeing the other as a 'dog in the manger' or 'out to flagrantly steal and use content/work that don't belong to them'.

A few further points.

Miscommunication is responsible for half of this world's woes.

People do go on a hiatus due to RL issues.

It often takes 1-2 people being really active again to breathe serious new life into a project.

So maybe things are not as grim as they look.

[Pstemarie]

TheExcimer-500 wrote...

As for comments from other teams, imagine how you would react if someone else decided to repackage your work without permission. I am grateful for all the authors who gave their permission for their work to be included in the CEP. But what I feel is being stated here by a few is a desire to rip-apart our project and doing so would injure the community.

Not sure where this is coming from. I never mentioned ripping CEP apart or repackaging it. Neither did Six.

What I did say in my first post was that people should be careful what they wish for, because a group that attempts to replace CEP with another CEP to the exclusion of the original team members will no doubt lose
said teams support and all the content that goes with it. Thus any such attempted takeover is just a bunch of hot air.

My second post stated simply that the problem isn't with CEP 2.x, its the fact that we have all these wonderful modules out there that the authors have neglected to update - probably because they've moved on to other things. If someone really wants to "revive" the Community then that person might want to consider updating the modules on the Vault so that they do work with CEP 2.x. 

Quite frankly, the Community is already injured by peoples own perceptions of what should be and what isn't being done. Hopefully we can move beyond all this nonsense and let the CEP Team do what they do - make content.

[Carcerian]

Honestly, I'd prefer to see a new post 1.69 project, CEP, bless it's heart, is dated and showing signs of age.
(as is only natural, as the quality of custom content seems to have risen dramaticly in the past few years...)

I recently called CEP "Neverwinter's most popular mod", and while that credit may numerically go to something else, in terms of a builder resource, it's unarguably one of the most definitive works there is for NWN.
(The 169 Patch Team even did thier best to build the 169 patch around it..)

I just counted over 30 PWs (not including d20 modern) up and running on gamespy with CEP in their title, 1 was CEP2.1, 4 were CEP2.2, the remaining were CEP2.4. Not exactly unused.



CEP development isn't dead ("It's just resting!"), it's waiting for "the chosen one" to come forth from the mists of legend to do tileset merging and give pixies riding lessons...  ("Awww, can I please NOT be the chosen one?")

I'm sure the team has a lot keeping them busy in the meantime. (weeding out bugs and broken/impossible content alone must be a massive amount of work post 2.4)



The bottom line is while I might not  completely understand Barry's management style, he and his team do deserve the right to decide what to do with thier CEP specific work.

Modifié par Carcerian, 30 juin 2012 - 04:32 .

[NWN_baba yaga]

There would be no CEP w/o the lonely artist who was and is creating content in his freetime for nwn. But instead of living in reality some guy throws little rocks down from his fictive castle and thinks the bioware community suck.

To me its the classic Don Quichotte syndrom...

I credit the CEP Team for all the work they have done definately but come on and be a bit realistic

p.s the two cep guys here have not even mentioned my problem about compatibility so what. Do i need an exclusive CEP pass to be supported? And I BET my a** on she is never to be seen again, anyone in?

AND I never made an appeal to rip it apart. But if its funny to read my words as wished so be it then;)

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 29 juin 2012 - 04:12 .

[Pstemarie]

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

There would be no CEP w/o the lonely artist who was and is creating content in his freetime for nwn. But instead of living in reality some guy throws little rocks down from his fictive castle and thinks the bioware community suck.

This is probably the most disturbing facet of the CEP Teams reluctance to visit these forums and keep the Community informed. We have a great Community here and just because members have been at odds with each other at various times doesn't diminish that fact. Like any Community we squabble, we make-up, we feud. Its all part of being a member of a Community, but for someone to just brand everyone here as "hostile" doesn't exactly engender amicable thoughts from those here.

I credit the CEP Team for all the work they have done definately but come on and be a bit realistic

p.s the two cep guys here have not even mentioned my problem about compatibility so what. Do i need an exclusive CEP pass to be supported?

I agree. Something needs to change for those that use the CEP. However, I don't think its necessary to scrap it when its probably much easier to fix it. As Excimer has noted - please post issues on the CEP Forum so he can look into it. At least it seems someone is listening.

However, the Community ultimately knows what best for the Community.

[Rolo Kipp]

<hooting...>

NWN_baba yaga wrote...
...But if its funny to read my words as wished so be it then;) 

Damn straight! If someone feels like laughing at me... at least I made them laugh =)

<...and hollering>

[Frith5]

I fear I don't understand the hullabaloo. If I wanted to make a new collection of content for the community, I'd contact the creators of the content, get permission, merge it, and well . . . just do it. Why make a splash, or ask for an existing (and venerable) NWN project to be the base or whatever? CEP is not the only CC collection; they don't pretend to be or ask to be. CEP is never diminished by somebody making their own collection. NWN, while a community, is also an individual pursuit in some ways. Anyone can tailor the game to their desires.
I do think that the place CEP occupies, its visibility and station as a standard enhancement for many, lends itself better to improvement than scrapping or starting over. One could conceivable invest their time into improving CEP instead of assembling their own stuff, with the idea for their top hak containing the 2da's to drive it (not loading all the stuff they don't like so much).
The only thing I don't care much to see is the notion of possession and exclusion. *Heavy Sigh*. Wasn't this one of the very things CEP agrued against? We are not a huge community any longer, folks. My biggest wish for NWN is for everyone to let go a bit, loosen up, enjoy the game more, hug each other (er, okay that other damn thread got to me!), and give. I was once, long ago, accused of being 'just a taker', because I wanted people to give freely, without restraint and without imposing limitations. I was abashed, and I so still regret that anyone left over all that old crap, and missed out on the enjoyment of producing things for others to enjoy. I told that person I was sorry he'd decided to leave, for those reasons. I was and am. Old news. I just don't think this family needs more tearing it apart. It is already grown smaller. Let it now grow closer, not more distant. If you don't like how CEP is now, be vocal and persistent and energetic, not to morph it into something new, but to help it into something better. Still CEP, just better.

JFK

[Shadooow]

kalbaern wrote...

"ShaDoOoW's" claim that no one will use the CEP is just plain silly as well. A few PWs choose not use it or choose a specific version over another for any number of reasons, but far more, both old and new do use the CEP and will likely continue to.

No not claimed that. But since CEP 2, there are several reason why not to use it. The CEP1 didn't have them and everyone were satisfied. Now the CEP team added so enormous ammount of content that the CEP2 has several serious issues that were not solved and probably cannot be unless virusman hacks the client any further. Even that - you can't assume that players will download, install and understand NWNCX just in order their game stop crashing. Thats why few peoples abadoned cep2 and made their own PW specific haks from content in CEP. And unless CEP changes, there will be more of them. I won't claim that every new builders prefers Q, but in these days, Q has more to offer without those issues that CEP includes.

I was being rude in past (how many years is that?), instead to offer help or suggest - do this, dont do that, I was spreading hate about CEP2. Apologies for that. But seriously - is the CEP2 team willing to give up some content to avoid NWN limits and issues linked with them?


PS. I downloaded CEP 2.4 and cannot find blueprints for all those new placeables, actually cant find any blueprints since CEP1 it seems. Do they exists somewhere? Didnt found any erf in package i downloaded.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 29 juin 2012 - 08:19 .

[Bannor Bloodfist]

The blueprints don't exist ShaDoOoW, primarily due to the number of wasted blueprints from stuff that folks no longer even want. NWN is a limited engine. If you add blueprints for all the things that were stuffed into CEP 2.4, you get instant client crashes and the complete inability to manage a PW as a DM.

Is it fixable? Absolutely. Will they (The current CEP managment) admit their issues and actually clean it up? Highly doubtful.

As demonstrated above by TheExcimer-500, CEP now claims ownership of the entire package. 99.9% of that content was created by folks that were never members of CEP. A a large selection of it was taken without permission. Over the years they have claimed HD crashes for loss of documentation and then claim exclusive rights for that content? Sorry, if a team has only a SINGLE copy of said content, then they are NOT a team.

Folks have tried for the past 5 years to get them to wake up and smell the roses. There is content from 1.x that needs to be removed. It no longer serves a purpose. In factc, CEP has already ADDED new content that has proven to be better in quality, yet they refuse to remove the stuff they are already replacing?

It has been requested, and actually thought was a good idea by several of their members at the time, to rename the haks and modularize them. So folks could pick and choose what content they wish to use. This was prior to 2.x release. It was claimed that doing so would break compatibility., Well, they renamed the haks anyway, and STILL broke the compatibility, so why not clean it up in the process? Instead, they renamed and deliberately merged content across multiple haks... different content, easily moved into some other hak was forced across multiple files.

The ORIGINAL CEP team was a great bunch of folks. Many, MANY talented people contributed. The idea for a Centralized Community Content series of haks is still a great idea. But it needs decent management and attitudes that allow other ideas to at least be recognized and considered AND acted upon.

Any team that creates something has to accept that nothing is perfect. They need to WELCOME bug reports and not slam the person reporting the bug. They can then choose to fix or not fix it as they please, but to slam someone for reporting an issue is ludicrous.

To blend content from multiple sources is a major task. No one states otherwise. The original CEP team did an amazing job with the content that was available to them then. However, since that point in time, multiple CC creators have been driven away from the community entirely due to the attitude engendered by the current CEP management and cronies. To claim they can take content from anyone and then claim it as their own and still expect folks to be willing to create that content, AND THEN to claim ownership of something that is not theirs to begin with and prevent others from taking from them is amazing to me.

I wish them well, and I offer a wish of good luck to anyone attempting to re-create a real Community Driven custom content compilation.

[Carcerian]

*Is offhandedly reminded of the Apocalyptic flame wars of Palladium staff vs Rifts fan efforts to balance/streamline/update*

Modifié par Carcerian, 29 juin 2012 - 09:45 .

[Urk]

First, I use CEP and I don't appreciate being called a newb. It may not be perfect but it doesn't have any serious problems, certainly nothing that can't be fixed. 90% of community complaints about CEP come from people that just don't know any better and involve issues that can easilly be fixed within the toolset, and any others (in the unlikely event they crop up) can be easily addressed  in a small module-specific top hak.
 
Now AFAIC the OP and several others on this thread are just plain being trolls. The CEP team has earned it's place in this community and deserves better than to simply be usurped. If you are serious about participating in and contributing to the CEP it should be done within the framework of the CEP. If you find yourself unable to work with the constraints of that framework than you always have the option of starting your own project.

As an old modder named Wolfman once said, "If you don't like the way I do something, do it better yourself."

The CEP project is not dead until the CEP team says it is. The decade of selfless labor they have given this community deserves at least that much respect.

Modifié par Urk, 30 juin 2012 - 01:17 .

[Tiberius_Morguhn]

*chuckles* and <facepalm> simultaneously. Especially after reading the responses on the CEP forums.

[NWN_baba yaga]

I dont appreciate being called a troll either but on the other hand... the look of baba yaga comes very close to it:D

[Carcerian]

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

I dont appreciate being called a troll either but on the other hand... the look of baba yaga comes very close to it:D

Though one can see a certian resemblance...



Trolls have bigger noses and spikey hair

Modifié par Carcerian, 30 juin 2012 - 09:33 .

[Zwerkules]

Urk wrote...

90% of community complaints about CEP come from people that just don't know any better and involve issues that can easilly be fixed within the toolset, and any others (in the unlikely event they crop up) can be easily addressed  in a small module-specific top hak.
 

If there are so many issues, they should be reported to the CEP, the CEP should read those reports and reply to them and if it is something that has to be fixed in the CEP fix it. Even if it's something that is easy to fix, calling the people with those problems newbs or worse and ignore them is not the way to go.
That goes for all community members, not just the CEP.

I must say though that I have seen CEP members who never helped anybody on a forum call real community members who help people and contribute to the community "good-for-nothings" and worse. That was a year or so ago. Maybe they behave better these days, but back then they were the trolls.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. They could have changed their attitude. Maybe they will work with the community, not against it and do better than they have done before.
Let's work together here, not against each other. If the CEP needs help, they should admit so and accept help if it is offered. Maybe they don't need the help, though. But if people think it would be best if others took over or the project should be replaced by something new, it seems they can use the help.
Isn't this an opportunity to work together?