88 réponses à ce sujet

[KlatchainCoffee]

Zwerkules wrote...

Let's work together here, not against each other.

Yes, please.

It is one of the astonishing traits of human nature that the most sensible thing can be the most difficult for reasons that are purely inside people's heads.

A more cooperative stance of various 'parties' certainly gets my vote.

[Urk]

Zwerkules wrote...

Urk wrote...

90% of community complaints about CEP come from people that just don't know any better and involve issues that can easilly be fixed within the toolset, and any others (in the unlikely event they crop up) can be easily addressed  in a small module-specific top hak.
 

If there are so many issues, they should be reported to the CEP, the CEP should read those reports and reply to them and if it is something that has to be fixed in the CEP fix it. Even if it's something that is easy to fix, calling the people with those problems newbs or worse and ignore them is not the way to go.
That goes for all community members, not just the CEP.

I must say though that I have seen CEP members who never helped anybody on a forum call real community members who help people and contribute to the community "good-for-nothings" and worse. That was a year or so ago. Maybe they behave better these days, but back then they were the trolls.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. They could have changed their attitude. Maybe they will work with the community, not against it and do better than they have done before.
Let's work together here, not against each other. If the CEP needs help, they should admit so and accept help if it is offered. Maybe they don't need the help, though. But if people think it would be best if others took over or the project should be replaced by something new, it seems they can use the help.
Isn't this an opportunity to work together?

That's just it. There really aren't that many issues. The vast majority of complaints about the CEP come from a position of ignorance about how custom content works.

For example... one common complaint abbout the CEP is that "Placable X" or "Creature Y" or "Armor Z isn't on the pallate".

Many models do not include blueprints and do not apppear on the pallate, and this is a deliberate choice on the part of the CEP devs. There is a limit to the number of Pallate items, and the team has decided not to include every single model in the pak. Builders who want to use these appearances have to know how to find and select them themselves. Likewise if you want to get the most out of the CEP you need to spend some time familiarizing yourself with the many wonderful unused models it has to offer.

There are some legitimate problems with the CEP. For example, some uncompiled scripts have slipped into the final product. The CEP team is aware of this, and they are trying to address it. The problem with fixing problems like this is they are hard to find, extremely important, tedious ot fix, and they are not generally visible to the community at large which reinforces an impression that nothing is being done.

That said... It's important to keep in mind that this is a free, all volunteer community project, not an official or professional expansion.  With tens of thousands of individual elements some crud is going to creep in. It's up to us as builders accept that, stay in touch with the devs about bugs we find,  and understand that they may not have the zots to fix every little thing. If you want to work with a massive package like the CEP you need to be able to work with, around, or through any problems that creep up.

[kalbaern]

Urk wrote...

Zwerkules wrote...

Urk wrote...

90% of community complaints about CEP come from people that just don't know any better and involve issues that can easilly be fixed within the toolset, and any others (in the unlikely event they crop up) can be easily addressed  in a small module-specific top hak.
 

If there are so many issues, they should be reported to the CEP, the CEP should read those reports and reply to them and if it is something that has to be fixed in the CEP fix it. Even if it's something that is easy to fix, calling the people with those problems newbs or worse and ignore them is not the way to go.
That goes for all community members, not just the CEP.

I must say though that I have seen CEP members who never helped anybody on a forum call real community members who help people and contribute to the community "good-for-nothings" and worse. That was a year or so ago. Maybe they behave better these days, but back then they were the trolls.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. They could have changed their attitude. Maybe they will work with the community, not against it and do better than they have done before.
Let's work together here, not against each other. If the CEP needs help, they should admit so and accept help if it is offered. Maybe they don't need the help, though. But if people think it would be best if others took over or the project should be replaced by something new, it seems they can use the help.
Isn't this an opportunity to work together?

That's just it. There really aren't that many issues. The vast majority of complaints about the CEP come from a position of ignorance about how custom content works.

For example... one common complaint abbout the CEP is that "Placable X" or "Creature Y" or "Armor Z isn't on the pallate".

Many models do not include blueprints and do not apppear on the pallate, and this is a deliberate choice on the part of the CEP devs. There is a limit to the number of Pallate items, and the team has decided not to include every single model in the pak. Builders who want to use these appearances have to know how to find and select them themselves. Likewise if you want to get the most out of the CEP you need to spend some time familiarizing yourself with the many wonderful unused models it has to offer.

There are some legitimate problems with the CEP. For example, some uncompiled scripts have slipped into the final product. The CEP team is aware of this, and they are trying to address it. The problem with fixing problems like this is they are hard to find, extremely important, tedious ot fix, and they are not generally visible to the community at large which reinforces an impression that nothing is being done.

That said... It's important to keep in mind that this is a free, all volunteer community project, not an official or professional expansion.  With tens of thousands of individual elements some crud is going to creep in. It's up to us as builders accept that, stay in touch with the devs about bugs we find,  and understand that they may not have the zots to fix every little thing. If you want to work with a massive package like the CEP you need to be able to work with, around, or through any problems that creep up.

No one in this thread made the complaints you refer to. At Excimer's behest, I've been going back thru the old Bioware archives and double checking the previous CEP Forums to round up old bug reports as no one had ever responded to them. These are legitimate reports, not requests for blueprints as you claim. Broken appearances, New Base Item Types that do not work as intended and some never can,, along with the issue that the latest version once again breaks backwards compatibility for builders. The problem isn't that "things" go unreported, it's that when reported, they are ignored or denied, but mostly the former. hopefully, with the new spotlight on the CEP and a few of them actually attempting to address these valid complaints, things will turn around.

As for you earlier comment that the "OP", being myself was merely a troll ... I can only assume you failed to actually read what was posted here in its entirety along with Barry's own admissions on the CEP Forums that he's been ignoring this site as well as the past two CEP Forums. *coughs* Yeah ... so after two plus years of no responses, I upped the anty. If that makes me a troll, so be it, but that would also redefine the term to something comepletely different that most use it for.

[NWN_baba yaga]

someone does not understand the problem again. So here is an example buddy! Lets take a look at here:
http://nwvault.ign.c...r=cep/downloads

nice vaultpage with lots of info... good so far. Now i can download cep2.3 or "the greatest and latest" CEP_24a that is 973.2Mb big!

OK but what if i want to play an old module for wait let me see... ok 2.0! Ok clicky main CEP page again and ting got it! nice new vaultpage for 2.0 with lots of info. Good and now i download... uhm thats alot of different hakstuff this time. From 16 files (docs included) i can cook together my CEP2.0 great and tasty. Well it doesnt tasts so good anymore!

And now i want to cry because i need CEP2.2 for another module and there is no simple INFO on the latest CEP Page or I just cant find except the CEP_V1 installer how to avoid spamming my hak folder with CEP CEP CEP.

And this info here is cool too, I quote
"This is the first release with a tophak called cep 2.3 but, at present
that tophak is identical to the updater 2.2 tophak. CEP 2.3 tophak
will, in time, change as 2.3 moves forward but the fact is, via updater,
2.2 and 2.3 as of this moment were identical - hak order identical, no
differences".


So  thats user friendly or easy to understand yes?

And i only want to know how can I make my 2.2 version compatible for 2.0 and between and update me to 2.4 w/o downloading the same huge haks with hundreds of identical files

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 30 juin 2012 - 11:22 .

[Malagant]

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

So  thats user friendly or easy to understand yes?

And i only want to know how can I make my 2.2 version compatible for 2.0 and between and update me to 2.4 w/o downloading the same huge haks with hundreds of identical files

Userfriendly, not so much. That being said, unless they've changed something, each version of the v2+ CEP has it's own top hak but utilizes the same hak structure below that (cep2_top_v1, cep2_top_v21, cep2_top_v22 and cep2_top_v22b, cep2_top_v23, cep2_top_v24), each having been contained in the relevant package and, I believe, each sucessive package containing the previous versions top haks as well. I'm not certain if this was left out of 2.4a or not, as it's been over two years since I installed it.

[Edited because I misunderstood the hag's comment] That being said, someone downloading and installing 2.3 (maybe 2.4a) opening a module that was built under 2.0 would find the module using the cep2_top_v1 which was included in the newer download and utilizes the same hak structure but ignores anything that had been added within that structure since. in that respect, I can see your problem with a regressive module application but the updater still catered to those players up through 2.3 where they wouldn't have to download everything all over again, didn't it?

Now, general commentary for the thread at hand: I feel that everything went to pot between 2.3 and 2.4a with the updater not being administered, which should have been rectified by the team when 2.4a went out, if not before. It wasn't. The everyday user, downloading 2.4a and using the updater, will find things extremely messed up and it isn't really stated clearly unless you comb one forum or another that the updater shouldn't be used post 2.3.

Aside from the other mentioned complaints and the severe tonal animosity those complaints and suggestions have had as a response, there seems to be a complete lack of attention and support for things that should have been rolled out with any update. Sure, the team in question owes nothing to anyone but It's been two years (give or take) and in that time the one update was rolled out knowing that whatever issues plagued the updater and its lack of administration were present. No one bothered to secure a new update server and updater that could be admined. No one, it would seem, bothered to consider any follow up. It makes it feel as if 2.4a was cobbled together and put out just to shut people up about there being no updates.

Documentation? Forget it, unless you want to spend the time searching some four forums (one of which doesn't exist any longer) or visit a personal server forum that no average user would even think to look for as per the current managers suggestion (one that even someone actively looking for recently still couldn't find).

And the recent responses said team has made? They don't inspire much in the way of confidence. Certainly, the almost clockwork annual bickering over CEP doesn't solve any issues; neither does giving the finger to those concerned. It isn't about owing anything, it's about supporting the work that exists unless the team is defunct and there's no one to support it which, from the suddent influx of team responses show, it is not.

I, for one, have floated around for the life of the game and I simply use both v1 and v2+ only to play any module that requires it; I haven't used it for building for the last two years, having moved on to more quality oriented organized resources. Haven't run into any major issues with any community modules yet as far as having any missing peices.

I loved the CEP for what it was before it became what I felt was unruly and extremely bloated and disorganized. Maybe they just painted themselves into a corner along the way? Perhaps bad choices were made and they felt they just had to move on because of their "rules" about being backward compatable (although other "rules" they seemed to have no problem tossing out). I don't pretend to know nor do I bother trying to figure it out.

Modifié par Malagant, 01 juillet 2012 - 12:29 .

[Urk]

Kalbearn I read both posts thoroughly. In fact until I read the CEP thread I thought you were just being obtuse. After reading it I realized you were a troll. To be specific, you are what is known as a "Concern Troll".

"Isn't the CEP wonderful? It's too bad the people running it are doing such a terrible job. We should take it away from them!"

Concern troll.

I realize that in more sophisticated circles the concerns I mentioned are rare (now), but my experience is the loudest and most self-certain complainers are usually found among the least sophisticated commenters. Actually the single biggest complaint I've heard over the years about CEP, an amusing illustration of the "yutz" factor, is the download size.

I've already conceded that there are legitimate reports pending on CEP. But it's not your place, or mine, or any else's outside the CEP team, to prioritize zots for repairs. Nor is it reasonable to think that a small team like CEP will be able to address every report.

Your solution, to recruit in the forums like you have at the beginning of this thread, serves only to illustrate your complete lack of project management experience. Project members brought in this way are overwhelmingly of low quality. If they even bother to respond at all to your initial follow-up they usually have far more opinions to offer than skills. Many do not like taking assignments or consider early assignments beneath them. As you have painstgakingly pointed out, and as Barry has conceded, the CEP needs to take a break on the "fun" side of CC and spend some zots debugging. As a rule this work is tedious, and new recruits are not usually thrilled with the prospect of spending their time cleaning up other people's messes. Even if a recruit has the skills to do the work that needs to be done, almost none have the dedication. Those who accept their initial assignments usually don't stay long enough to finish them.

Projects like the CEP cannot be run this way. Recruiting for a project like this is best done by invitation. Only high initiative volunteers generally have the right stuff for this kind of project, and even they need to be thoroughly vetted. The only thing worse than not having a volunteer to do a project is finding one willing to complete a half-finished one.

But you know what? None of this matters.

What it really  boils down to is that the CEP is someone else's project. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you think you can do better, go for it. But the CEP is simply not yours to usurp.

Modifié par Urk, 01 juillet 2012 - 12:42 .

[Pstemarie]

And now we've degenerated to name calling and mud-slinging. As if that'll be productive...

[Urk]

Quite right. I've had my say. I'll let it go now.

[NWN_baba yaga]

@Urk:

You dont get it do you?

[Wall3T]

ive been reading up on this thread and seeing where its heading.

The big point im getting is "should we create a group to support the cep" or "should we just drop it and let the cep team take there course by themselves".

for one, i endorse any idea if it means adding more content. Some may disagree with me on that, but thats my story and im stickin to it

as a builder, and a fan, of the cep ive learned ALOT from custom building, all thanks to them, ive learned how to build my own server and be good at it!

whatever decision is made (and i do so hope we all do. as a proper community should). ill be there to support it.

I for one feel we could use a seperate group that could extend the cep content in general. for those willing to take the journey and accept the challenge.

[KlatchainCoffee]

Urk wrote...

Kalbearn I read both posts thoroughly. In fact until I read the CEP thread I thought you were just being obtuse. After reading it I realized you were a troll. To be specific, you are what is known as a "Concern Troll".

"Isn't the CEP wonderful? It's too bad the people running it are doing such a terrible job. We should take it away from them!"

Concern troll.

I realize that in more sophisticated circles the concerns I mentioned are rare (now), but my experience is the loudest and most self-certain complainers are usually found among the least sophisticated commenters. Actually the single biggest complaint I've heard over the years about CEP, an amusing illustration of the "yutz" factor, is the download size.

I've already conceded that there are legitimate reports pending on CEP. But it's not your place, or mine, or any else's outside the CEP team, to prioritize zots for repairs. Nor is it reasonable to think that a small team like CEP will be able to address every report.

Your solution, to recruit in the forums like you have at the beginning of this thread, serves only to illustrate your complete lack of project management experience. Project members brought in this way are overwhelmingly of low quality. If they even bother to respond at all to your initial follow-up they usually have far more opinions to offer than skills. Many do not like taking assignments or consider early assignments beneath them. As you have painstgakingly pointed out, and as Barry has conceded, the CEP needs to take a break on the "fun" side of CC and spend some zots debugging. As a rule this work is tedious, and new recruits are not usually thrilled with the prospect of spending their time cleaning up other people's messes. Even if a recruit has the skills to do the work that needs to be done, almost none have the dedication. Those who accept their initial assignments usually don't stay long enough to finish them.

Projects like the CEP cannot be run this way. Recruiting for a project like this is best done by invitation. Only high initiative volunteers generally have the right stuff for this kind of project, and even they need to be thoroughly vetted. The only thing worse than not having a volunteer to do a project is finding one willing to complete a half-finished one.

But you know what? None of this matters.

What it really  boils down to is that the CEP is someone else's project. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you think you can do better, go for it. But the CEP is simply not yours to usurp.

Having done time on the project management side for a number of projects, much of what you say is unfortunately too true.

It's a difficult balance to keep - on one hand be open and welcoming enough to allow in new blood  and on the other hand have at least some assurance that the said blood would be reliable to any extent. Talking is easy, putting in the (often hard) work to make sure stuff gets done and works properly - less so.

On the other hand, just from looking at this thread the extent of the project stagnation appears to be such that it needs a vocal 'concern troll' to get things moving again. Tho, the fact that stuff can still move means that things aren's as bad as some people would like to paint them.

On yet another hand, if you've good a really good vibe going around a project, people would flock to you yourselves and would be enthusiastic enough to reliably complete 'tedious' chunks of work.

So here's to bug fixes and better vibes.

Modifié par KlatchainCoffee, 01 juillet 2012 - 10:52 .

[NWN_baba yaga]

This community here (I involved and the firestarter for my private war where I today think i was totally messed up) had some serious clashs in the past too and now we move along side by side, not as friends (here i mean only myself) but as members of the CC scene with respect. So it´s possible to work together when everyone lays the past a bit to rest. We show it everyday here!

But the problem remains that a defunctional "COMMUNITY" expansion pack Team that has no intentions to help or support new players on their own DOWNLOAD page or on the company own game website. Yes there are other guys who help and share their experience but it´s the TEAMS job if they are a TEAM. So where is the future I ask you honest where a leader thinks every newb has to register here and there and needs to adventure trough the NWN world so he can stay save in his high castle because we all suck!

p.s. and i will never ever mention the cep again because "i dont want to get banned"

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:32 .

[henesua]

oOKyeOo wrote...

The big point im getting is "should we create a group to support the cep" or "should we just drop it and let the cep team take there course by themselves".

More or less that is it. Given that the first choice of the two you lay out has been committed to a number of times over the course of CEP 2's existence only to end in frustration, I've finally spoken up to suggest the later.

But there is more to the second choice than you mention. The community has the choice to attempt to follow in the steps of the CEP 1 team, and come up with a solution for organizing all the content we have available to us.

[Carcerian]

Good! Now that we have gotten that bit out of the way, we still need a working game plan...



Phaze 1: Merge CEP 2.4, d20 Modern, Project Q, CTP and the PRC. Upload to Torrent Sites.

Phaze 2: ???

Phaze 3: Profit!!!

Modifié par Carcerian, 01 juillet 2012 - 03:00 .

[Malagant]

Pstemarie wrote...

And now we've degenerated to name calling and mud-slinging. As if that'll be productive...

On a re-read, I hope my "hag" reference wan't taken badly. When I said "the hag", I certainly meant that Baba Yaga is a hag, mythologically speaking. I probably should have refrained from such an easily misinterpreted reference.

[KlatchainCoffee]

Carcerian, you are opening a can of worms. As far as I know, its makers have decided that no-one else should make profit out of NWN other than itself. If they change their minds, it opens the potential for good and bad in equal measure. Good - people can achieve amazing things when motivated by money. Bad - much of the spirit of free sharing and creativity for its own sake when custom content creation is concerned might be lost.

Besides, even if you manage to persuade all the various creators to agree to have their content added to one big thing, it would involve a potentially insurmountable mountain of work.

[henesua]

Klatchain, that is a classic joke. I don't know what Carcerian's intentions are, but the conclusion that his intentions are to make money out of NWN is not the first one I would jump to.

[Pstemarie]

I believe Carcerian is referring to "profit" in a metaphorical sense - i.e. the Community would "profit" from such a compilation.

However, by no means am I offering to be the poor SOB that has to merge all that stuff!

Modifié par Pstemarie, 01 juillet 2012 - 03:41 .

[Rolo Kipp]

<picking flowers...>

Malagant wrote...
On a re-read, I hope my "hag" reference wan't taken badly. When I said "the hag", I certainly meant that Baba Yaga is a hag, mythologically speaking. I probably should have refrained from such an easily misinterpreted reference.

Well, *I* got it :-)

But then, I hugged her, too =)
Listed a nice little magical... er, *something* from her purse. <boss! its hungry again!>
Yikes! Gotta go!

<...thistles & nettles, to be specific>

[Carcerian]

It's a joke, from southpark episode "underpant's gnomes" who clearly had not thought out their project plan entirely...

Making money off of CEP would be a HUGE no-no, based on all the artistic copyright infringements in it's portraits alone, nevermind the fact that nearly every DnD creature has been copyrighted/licensed/registered/trademarked at some point.

Aside from servers asking for upkeep donations and Canadian colleges who liked to use it as a teaching tool (and who had special educational/promotional arrangements made with bioware), the only person I have heard of trying to profit from NWN was an admin who tried to sell gold ingame for real $$$ for upkeep, an idea that didn't go over very well with his players.

To me the basic issue is about permission, the CEP Team is Active and not giving it, so oh well...

I still see no reason why ppl can't post independant fixes for CEP like the ones already on the vault

Modifié par Carcerian, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:56 .

[Pstemarie]

Carcerian wrote...

I still see no reason why ppl can't post independant fixes for CEP like the ones already on the vault

Might not be a bad idea to post a link list to those so that Excimer can check them over and incorporate them, if necessary, into the "official" release.

[Carcerian]

Pstemarie wrote...

Carcerian wrote...

I still see no reason why ppl can't post independant fixes for CEP like the ones already on the vault

Might not be a bad idea to post a link list to those so that Excimer can check them over and incorporate them, if necessary, into the "official" release.

Exactly.

Personaly I find the Krit's Spells for CEP Fixes in the "can't live without" catagory, and should to be added to CEP ASAP.

Even the more esoteric ones are nice to have : CEP Dynamic Skeleton Phenotype Palemaster Arm Graft Fix (by yours truly)

Modifié par Carcerian, 01 juillet 2012 - 04:53 .

[Rolo Kipp]

<rushing to...>

Pstemarie wrote...
However, by no means am I offering to be the poor SOB that has to merge all that stuff!

Heh.

I still maintain that:

a) 35% of conflict between projects comes from either vague, misunderstood or ignored author's rights
2) 60% of conflict between projects comes from resource collisions (not coordinating/reserving 2DA lines being the biggest chunk)
and
gamma) computers are stoopid. But they are pretty good at tedious tasks they've been taught. "Let George do it"

Re CEP: I try hard to remain neutral, particularly on inflammatory subjects. I love this game and I am constantly amazed at the talent and heart of the people who contribute to it. When the negative stuff comes out, my game, my fun, my creative juices all suffer beneath a pall <too much purple, wizard>
Er, yeah. I don't like it.

My opinion here is biased slightly because I can not use CEP because it appears to contain copyrighted material in violation of a quite aggressive company's EULA (that being Blizzard) and I do not want a cease-and-desist order hitting me down the road. Having said that, I have no opinion about particular team members of CEP. Honestly, I don't even know who they are.

I do not endorse any kind of "takeover" of the CEP (see #a above) and I do not think that was Kalbearn's point.

CEP remains an awesome,herculean project of great utility to a large number of people.
It is abviously active, or there would not be such resistance posted here. So be it. Let them run their project.
It saddens me that there is so much bad blood that they do not post here nor respond (to me) elsewhere.
Their karma.

I do not recognise anyone but the author of content as being able to restrict my use of content they have released *without other restriction* on the Vault. The Vault EULA is pretty clear on author's rights. It is also clear that content submitted is:

A. User Content. By submitting any User Content through or to the Services, including on any User Tools or User Pages, but excluding any User Content you submit on IGN Blogs, you hereby irrevocably grant to IGN, its affiliates and distributors, a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, and fully sub-licensable license, to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, translate, publicly perform, publicly display, create derivative works from, transfer, transmit and distribute on the Services, in connection with promotion or elsewhere, such User Content (in whole or in part) and to incorporate the User Content into other works in any format or medium now known or later developed. 

It is *respect* that prevents the abuse of that little clause.
Think about it.
Please.

I respect absolutely the rights that authors have *retained*. If someone sweats and bleeds and weeps over the creation of something and then says "You may use it, but please don't modify it or re-package it without permission" I will never modify it or repackage it. I may "reverse engineer" it, buying ownership with my own blood, sweat & tears.
But I very much feel that is different.

As I understand the rights CEP is retaining, this thread would be far more profitable pursuing something along the lines of what Henesua's proposing.
In fact, I even proposed a couple names for the project... <no, boss! don't...!>
My favorite is H.O.P.E. <*raven groan*>
Hostility & Oppression Prevention Experiment <*face-wing*>
Or perhaps the CCCI - Custom Content Coordination Initiative?

<...get out of sight>

[Carcerian]

*Grins* NWN - The Total Conversion (Replaces every component of NWN with something better/cooler/nicer-looking)

Proposed Contents:

Everything ever made by The Amethyst Dragon (esp interface and reforged project)

Override Critters with higher quality content made by artists such as by Baba, Six, Worm, Radio, Rubies, etc...

Everything possible from custom content challenges.

Hardpoint's Tilesets with Ceilings

Everything else thats better/cooler/nicer-looking or less buggy.

Modifié par Carcerian, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:18 .

[Carcerian]

All jokes aside, I'd think a true community project would have public voting for submissions, major decisions, priorities, etc.

Voting is fun and would give everyone a voice. Nothing Iron-Clad of course, but at least it would give the project manager(s) an idea of what the people want.

Open forums were volenteers, sumbissions, bug reports, suggestions, critisizms are regularly read and objectivly responded to (were even if answers are no, a simple explanation why is given) are also vital.

Modifié par Carcerian, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:29 .