100 réponses à ce sujet

[edwardhazelden]

I'm probably wrong about this but playing through dragonage 2 I felt that it was setting the table for dragonage 3. I mean at the end of dragonage origins everything’s peachy but at the end of dragonage 2 everything’s going to hell. Basically DA2's purpose is to put everyone into the positions they need and put the world in a dangerous scenario for DA3.

[hero 2]

Bourne2Play wrote...

Not so much with DA2. This whole game, including its main plot quests, felt like SIDE quests. This game had no reason to exist whatsoever. What a major disapointment.

Sorry to flame, but you seem like someone who just does the quests and isn't paying attention to the subtle tensions in the political situation as they slowly rise to the surface. I think a lot of people who played DA2 didn't get it because it's too subtle for them. 

The plot is exceptionally well written, and the purpose, if you insist on there being one, is to introduce you to the political situation at the beginning of it's chronological sequels. Namely, that the templars and mages have seemingly come to all-out war.

edit: I just read edwardhazelden 's reply and I agree with him.

Modifié par hero 2, 30 juin 2012 - 03:32 .

[LobselVith8]

edwardhazelden wrote...

I'm probably wrong about this but playing through dragonage 2 I felt that it was setting the table for dragonage 3. I mean at the end of dragonage origins everything’s peachy but at the end of dragonage 2 everything’s going to hell. Basically DA2's purpose is to put everyone into the positions they need and put the world in a dangerous scenario for DA3.

A lot of people felt that way - me included.

[Rawgrim]

I felt like I was playing some interactive movie. With the game fixing things for me, that I did wrong. People i decided not to kill, I had to kill 1 chapter later etc. It felt like Red Dead Redemption, or somehting like that. A story set in stone.

[Get Magna Carter]

1) to reveal more about Thedas
2) to explain the beginnings of the mage\\templar war
3) to explain why Hawke is so important


(...finally stopped laughing)
4) to cash in on the popularity of DA:Origins by rushing out a sequel...

[Nefla]

I actually thought all of the main quests WERE sidequests the first time I played the game lol. I was like "it sucks that they use the same map over and over but since they're just sidequests who cares? And look how many there are! I can't wait to get to the main story" and then the game was over.

Modifié par Nefla, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:38 .

[Wulfram]

hero 2 wrote...

Sorry to flame, but you seem like someone who just does the quests and isn't paying attention to the subtle tensions in the political situation as they slowly rise to the surface. I think a lot of people who played DA2 didn't get it because it's too subtle for them. 

The plot is exceptionally well written, and the purpose, if you insist on there being one, is to introduce you to the political situation at the beginning of it's chronological sequels. Namely, that the templars and mages have seemingly come to all-out war.

Serving as backstory for future games isn't really a good justification for a game.  I certainly didn't miss this "purpose", I just didn't find it very satisfying.

If they wanted to provide non-interactive exposition about how the Mage/Templar situation went to hell, they could have written a book.  I want a game to give the main character a role other than helpless bystander.

[LobselVith8]

hero 2 wrote...

Sorry to flame, but you seem like someone who just does the quests and isn't paying attention to the subtle tensions in the political situation as they slowly rise to the surface. I think a lot of people who played DA2 didn't get it because it's too subtle for them.

Insane and stupid mages on one side, sadistic templars on the other... I don't see anything subtle about it. Even the DLCs made fun of Hawke punching his way to becoming Champion and everyone in Kirkwall being a lunatic.

hero 2 wrote...

The plot is exceptionally well written, and the purpose, if you insist on there being one, is to introduce you to the political situation at the beginning of it's chronological sequels. Namely, that the templars and mages have seemingly come to all-out war.

A lot of characters do things that are nonsensical - Decimus, Grace, Orsino, Meredith... I don't agree that it was well-written with such ludicrious moments from those characters, in addition to how inhumanly passive Hawke was.

[Kelgair]

Just imagine after playing DA:O you boot up the next Dragon Age game and you were greeted by the revelation that the circles are rebelling, the templars broke from the chantry, the Qunari are either pissed they still don't have their tome or are reeling from having lost their military leader, there's an ancient dwarven thaig with this weird red lyrium that's being excavated and that there's an original Tevinter Magister wandering around in a Grey Warden body. Oh and everyones talking about this Lothering refugee who apparently caused all this crap to go down.

Then ask yourself, what was the point of Dragon Age 2?

[Wulfram]

I don't think learning the Templars and Mages had gone to war between games would be overly shocking. The prospect of a mage rebellion was after all set up by Uldred's rebellion in Origins.

While the rest could easily be set up in the next game or ignored as not particularly relevant now that DA2 hasn't happened. There's certainly no need for Hawke to be considered particularly important if he's not a PC, all the Qunari plotline really did was establish that they might invade someday, which we knew anyway. And all the red lyrium stuff did was tell us that it exists and can drive you crazy, which isn't all that difficult to establish.

[Dave of Canada]

Considering how Asunder basically says the mages did nothing after Kirkwall, it served little purpose except for introducing different conflicts into the universe which we already knew existed--except for the red lyrium, which was just stupid in general and should just not exist.

Kind of silly that Asunder is the straw that broke the camel's back and not Kirkwall like DA2 implied it to be.

[Kelgair]

The only reason you can say you don't think it's shocking is because you've played DA2. If you just loaded up the next game and they go, oh and by the way the system that's been mostly stable for the past 900 years just collapsed and every single circle is rebelling at the same time and not just one, oh and the military wing of the chantry has just split off. Well, if you were intellectually honest you'd want to know what the hell caused that, and would rightfully be pissed if it was relegated to a codex entry. Especially if it mentioned how Anders from DA;Awakening which you just played went crazy and blew up a chantry. Would be nice to know what events led up to that wouldn't it? A lot happened in DA2 whether you see it or not.

[thats1evildude]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Considering how Asunder basically says the mages did nothing after Kirkwall, it served little purpose except for introducing different conflicts into the universe which we already knew existed--except for the red lyrium, which was just stupid in general and should just not exist.

Asunder somewhat under-stated the impact of Kirkwall's rebellion, but you could see the details in the fine print. Anders' destruction of the Chantry was followed by the dissolution of the College of Magi, a fact that was mentioned by the mage who tried to kill the Divine. The templars also began to crack down a lot harder.

If Dawn of the Seeker is also considered canon, then we see that Kirkwall encouraged certain militant elements within the Chantry to rebel against the Divine because she was too soft on the mages.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:57 .

[LinksOcarina]

Bourne2Play wrote...

I'm a late comer to the DA series. I played DA:O four months ago and thought it was one of the best games I have ever played. Completely epic game from start to finish. And then I picked up DA2. I'm not gonna add to what's been said about this game from different people. All those issues are obvious (terrible story, reused enviornments, etc..)

But what really gets me is the purpose of this game? I spent 50 hours on it and did each and ever quest. What was the point?? DA:O had a very clear purpose from the beginning: Unite everyone (the circle, the elves, the dwarves, etc..) against the blight. It was an epic journey with an epic conclusion.

 Not so much with DA2. This whole game, including its main plot quests, felt like SIDE quests. This game had no reason to exist whatsoever. What a major disapointment.

The purpose is 3-fold.

First, to continue the storyline of Thedas, which is the purpose of Dragon Age as a series. The world is the stage, and we get to use a player that shapes it in that regard.

Second, to tell us a story. Varric is an unreliable narrator, one that embellishes the truth all the time, but when a Seeker wants to know what happened to this character Hawke, and why or how he may be connected to a growing crisis, we get to play out that story and some of their conclusions. NOT ALL of them, because then we would have no story and the games plot would fail, but we shape the events and the tone of it, if your sibling survives the deep roads, if you become Champion the easy or hard way against the Qunari, if you actually did let Anders live or sided with the Templars or Mages, those type of questions we create, and it would reflect in game 3 in some form.

Which leads to point 3, to bridge a new story arc. Game 3, no matter what it contains, will have to involve the mage/templar conflict in some way. With this in mind, its good to get context on it, even if the source we have is an unreliable narrator. With this also in mind, the context of game 2 is important in game 3, just as much as the context of Origins is important for future installments, who is king in Ferelden? Did the Warden survive Blight, or did they do the ritual with Morrigan, is Connor still posessed by a demon or is Behlin in charge of Orzammar? All of this will shape decisions in numerous ways, and this ties back into point one, that the individual storylines we see are important, even at times life altering, but pale into comparison the star of the show, Thedas herself. 

[Nefla]

Kelgair wrote...

Just imagine after playing DA:O you boot up the next Dragon Age game and you were greeted by the revelation that the circles are rebelling, the templars broke from the chantry, the Qunari are either pissed they still don't have their tome or are reeling from having lost their military leader, there's an ancient dwarven thaig with this weird red lyrium that's being excavated and that there's an original Tevinter Magister wandering around in a Grey Warden body. Oh and everyones talking about this Lothering refugee who apparently caused all this crap to go down.

Then ask yourself, what was the point of Dragon Age 2?

They could introduce the circles revolting in the beginning of a game and it doesn't need to have anything to do with anyone in particular, just "the mages are finally starting to revolt." Something like:

Joe the elven shopkeep (you) is delivering special goods to the circle of magi. Joe can interact with the templars and mages and get an idea of the viewpoints, see the excessive pressure the templars are exerting, the fact that the mages are almost at a breaking point, and overhear gossip about how someone heard that circles in *blank* and *blank* already revolted etc...Now Joe can find a particular mage, maybe it's Joe's cousin Josephine who was locked up in the circle when she was little. Josephine is desperate to escape and asks for Joe's help and while the two and maybe Josephine's mage buddy Jonah are escaping through deviously clever means their disappearance sparks the templars to crack down super hard in a search for the missing people, and this causes the mages to put their foot down which causes a templar on the edge named Jolee to go too far and OMG KILL an innocent young apprentice which causes the mages to retaliate, etc...and Joe, Josephine and Jonah barely escape in time! Mages escape willy-nilly, many die, templars also die and that circle is lost! All of this could be told in the time it took for the origins in DA:O and then you can go on with the story from there, blah blah.

It doesn't have to be that, it can be anything but one event even if it's a big one "the circles revolt" doesn't need a whole game to tell you about it. There was no subplot to the circles revolting in DA2. There was tensions and then everyone decided to put on their crazy pants and start fighting each other. The Qunari had nothing to do with the real plot and were only there to make Hawke important enough for Meredith and Orsino to know who he was.

Modifié par Nefla, 01 juillet 2012 - 03:15 .

[Kelgair]

Nefla wrote...

Kelgair wrote...

Just imagine after playing DA:O you boot up the next Dragon Age game and you were greeted by the revelation that the circles are rebelling, the templars broke from the chantry, the Qunari are either pissed they still don't have their tome or are reeling from having lost their military leader, there's an ancient dwarven thaig with this weird red lyrium that's being excavated and that there's an original Tevinter Magister wandering around in a Grey Warden body. Oh and everyones talking about this Lothering refugee who apparently caused all this crap to go down.

Then ask yourself, what was the point of Dragon Age 2?

They could introduce the circles revolting in the beginning of a game and it doesn't need to have anything to do with anyone in particular, just "the mages are finally starting to revolt." Something like:

Joe the elven shopkeep (you) is delivering special goods to the circle of magi. Joe can interact with the templars and mages and get an idea of the viewpoints, see the excessive pressure the templars are exerting, the fact that the mages are almost at a breaking point, and overhear gossip about how someone heard that circles in *blank* and *blank* already revolted etc...Now Joe can find a particular mage, maybe it's Joe's cousin Josephine who was locked up in the circle when she was little. Josephine is desperate to escape and asks for Joe's help and while the two and maybe Josephine's mage buddy Jonah are escaping through deviously clever means their disappearance sparks the templars to crack down super hard in a search for the missing people, and this causes the mages to put their foot down which causes a templar on the edge named Jolee to go too far and OMG KILL an innocent young apprentice which causes the mages to retaliate, etc...and Joe, Josephine and Jonah barely escape in time! Mages escape willy-nilly, many die, templars also die and that circle is lost! All of this could be told in the time it took for the origins in DA:O and then you can go on with the story from there, blah blah.

It doesn't have to be that, it can be anything but one event even if it's a big one "the circles revolt" doesn't need a whole game to tell you about it. There was no subplot to the circles revolting in DA2. There was tensions and then everyone decided to put on their crazy pants and start fighting each other. The Qunari had nothing to do with the real plot and were only there to make Hawke important enough for Meredith and Orsino to know who he was.

Well gee, if that big event doesn't require a game what the hell was the point of Origins then? To introduce the world? Well you can have one origin story introduce you to the entire world! The 5th blight? Who gives a sh*t about the 5th blight, Morrigan, Leliana, Sten, Oghren, Zevran, Alistair or Wynne? A simple one origin exposition will clear that right up and you can go merrily on your way. The multiple quests you did along the way? Well, obviously Fenris, Merrill, Varric, Isabela  and those other characters are worthless to the DA world and not important! Their quests had as much influence as the first games! Well done Nefla you've not only scoffed and said screw you to the second game, you've effectivly scoffed and said screw you to the first game!

Modifié par Kelgair, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:52 .

[Kelgair]

Just to go into Neflas "origin" for s**ts and giggles. I wonder if he can account for the fact that I could turn in Josephine and Jonah. I mean, I could be a good Andraste elf shopkeeper couldn't I? The last thing I'd want to do would be to give Templars a reason to mess with my immediate family. Josephine is my cousin who I barely knew while we were both small kids. What do I care about a possible mage who could be an abomination?

And if there's a huge mage rebellion good lord why would I associate with any mage if I'm a shopkeep...er... - Unless of course, the mage has some good coin. Ahhh, never mind.

[Nefla]

Kelgair wrote...
Well gee, if that big event doesn't require a game what the hell was the point of Origins then? To introduce the world? Well you can have one origin story introduce you to the entire world! The 5th blight? Who gives a sh*t about the 5th blight, Morrigan, Leliana, Sten, Oghren, Zevran, Alistair or Wynne? A simple one origin exposition will clear that right up and you can go merrily on your way. The multiple quests you did along the way? Well, obviously Fenris, Merrill, Varric, Isabela  and those other characters are worthless to the DA world and not important! Their quests had as much influence as the first games! Well done Nefla you've not only scoffed and said screw you to the second game, you've effectivly scoffed and said screw you to the first game!

The point of origins was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game. It wasn't meant to be a bridge or filler or whatever like DA2 was. Also the blight was a lot more involved than anything in DA2 was. If the whole game of DA2 had been about a mage rebellion and there were several parts and intricacies to that then it would have made a lot more sense and been worthwhile. The first arc of DA2 was all filler, collecting money, nothing to do with the world. The second arc was about ousting one Qunari general and his less than 100 guys from one city. Again it doesn't affect the world, why would someone in Antiva care about that? They would care about a blight or a spreading mage rebellion. I never said the characters in DA:O were important to the world, they're not (except Alistair if you make him king) but the world doesn't care if you found Sten's sword or if you helped Merril fix her mirror. The only thing that affected the world was the very last like hour or so of the game. I'm not trying to bash DA2 or offend you, it's obvious you're a fan. I'm just saying DA2 was character driven and not plot driven at all (so was ME2 and I loved that game). The plot was thin and unneccesary for a whole game if the game is meant to be explanatory and not just a fun self contained game.

[Nefla]

Kelgair wrote...

Just to go into Neflas "origin" for s**ts and giggles. I wonder if he can account for the fact that I could turn in Josephine and Jonah. I mean, I could be a good Andraste elf shopkeeper couldn't I? The last thing I'd want to do would be to give Templars a reason to mess with my immediate family. Josephine is my cousin who I barely knew while we were both small kids. What do I care about a possible mage who could be an abomination?

And if there's a huge mage rebellion good lord why would I associate with any mage if I'm a shopkeep...er... - Unless of course, the mage has some good coin. Ahhh, never mind.

It's just a random example, no reason to get angry. And who says you couldn't turn them in? You would still be there to see an escape or escape attempt trigger an outrage. Plus there were many times in DA2 where I couldn't make the choice I wanted. I didn't want to associate with Merril at all and yet she shoves herself into my life, even comming into my house though I never use her or talk to her. I also wanted to tell Anders to go away or turn him in, but even when I got that dialogue option with Cullen "hey Anders is plotting against the chantry!" nothing happens and he still drags me into his drama. I just wanted your maps, not YOU.

[Yrkoon]

This has already been adequately addressed, but I'm going to address it again, since I got here late....

Realmzmaster wrote...
How many crpgs do you know that have rags to riches plots?

Dragon Age 2  does not have a 'Rags to Riches' plot.  it has a "rise to power" plot.  Big difference.   You're not given the "champion of Kirkwall" title at the end of Act two because you managed to 'get rich", you get it because  of your power - because you saved  the city from a big, evil, foreign threat and have now gained the respect of every important person in the city.

And  that's a very common  plot (cliche, even) in Fantasy RPGs

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:59 .

[coles4971]

lol, I just read the quoted guy in your signature as "hugejohnny"

...

;D

[Kelgair]

Nefla wrote...

The point of origins was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game.

Becomes

Nefla wrote...

The point of DA2 was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game.

Aaaaand, we're done!

[Realmzmaster]

Yrkoon wrote...

This has already been adequately addressed, but I'm going to address it again, since I got here late....

Realmzmaster wrote...
How many crpgs do you know that have rags to riches plots?

Dragon Age 2  does not have a 'Rags to Riches' plot.  it has a "rise to power" plot.  Big difference.   You're not given the "champion of Kirkwall" title at the end of Act two because you managed to 'get rich", you get it because  of your power - because you saved  the city from a big, evil, foreign threat and have now gained the respect of every important person in the city.

And  that's a very common  plot (cliche, even) in Fantasy RPGs

Really? You think that the nobles and Meredith would have given that title to a non-human (even a rich non-human?) or a poor Feledren dog of a human who saved the city? Hawke after Act I had status, money, ties to nobility through his mother and power already. Defending the city and becoming the Champion was just the icing on the cake. 

[Rxdiaz]

Kelgair wrote...

Nefla wrote...

The point of origins was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game.

Becomes

Nefla wrote...

The point of DA2 was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game.

Aaaaand, we're done!

If the point of DA2 was to be a fun game it was an epic failure.

[Nefla]

Kelgair wrote...

Nefla wrote...

The point of origins was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game.

Becomes

Nefla wrote...

The point of DA2 was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game.

Aaaaand, we're done!

I really didn't mean to hurt your feelings, I wasn't trying to say DA2 was horrible or anything.