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[Yrkoon]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

This has already been adequately addressed, but I'm going to address it again, since I got here late....

Realmzmaster wrote...
How many crpgs do you know that have rags to riches plots?

Dragon Age 2  does not have a 'Rags to Riches' plot.  it has a "rise to power" plot.  Big difference.   You're not given the "champion of Kirkwall" title at the end of Act two because you managed to 'get rich", you get it because  of your power - because you saved  the city from a big, evil, foreign threat and have now gained the respect of every important person in the city.

And  that's a very common  plot (cliche, even) in Fantasy RPGs

Really? You think that the nobles and Meredith would have given that title to a non-human (even a rich non-human?) or a poor Feledren dog of a human who saved the city? Hawke after Act I had status, money, ties to nobility through his mother and power already. Defending the city and becoming the Champion was just the icing on the cake. 

What?     I thought we  were discussing rags to riches, not  Human vs. non-human.

To answer your question though, no, Merideth wouldn't have given the title to a non-human because  it's nigh impossible  for a non-human to rise to power in Kirkwall.   The same cannot be said for acquiring wealth, as the Tethras family  (dwarves) have done so, for example.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 juillet 2012 - 02:15 .

[Realmzmaster]

Yrkoon wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

This has already been adequately addressed, but I'm going to address it again, since I got here late....

Realmzmaster wrote...
How many crpgs do you know that have rags to riches plots?

Dragon Age 2  does not have a 'Rags to Riches' plot.  it has a "rise to power" plot.  Big difference.   You're not given the "champion of Kirkwall" title at the end of Act two because you managed to 'get rich", you get it because  of your power - because you saved  the city from a big, evil, foreign threat and have now gained the respect of every important person in the city.

And  that's a very common  plot (cliche, even) in Fantasy RPGs

Really? You think that the nobles and Meredith would have given that title to a non-human (even a rich non-human?) or a poor Feledren dog of a human who saved the city? Hawke after Act I had status, money, ties to nobility through his mother and power already. Defending the city and becoming the Champion was just the icing on the cake. 

What?     I thought we  were discussing rags to riches, not  Human vs. non-human.

To answer your question though, no, Merideth wouldn't have given the title to a non-human because  it's nigh impossible  for a non-human to rise to power in Kirkwall.   The same cannot be said for acquiring wealth, as the Tethras family  (dwarves) have done so, for example.

We are even if the non-human were rich the title of Champion would not have been conveyed. Rich elves still live in the Alienage. The Tethras family was already of nobility and fairly wealthy before being exiled. They are maintaining their wealth through their dealings in Kirkwall.  Very rarely do you rise to power with out gaining either money, staus and influence (rags to riches). Hawke obtains all three.

The question I have ask was how many PC cRPGs have a rags to riches story. Storm of Zehir was mentioned as one. That so far is the only one outside of DA2 that has been mentioned. If you know of more will you care to enlighten me.

[Yrkoon]

Why is that question relevant when DA2 is not a rags to riches story? Go to the off topic forum and ask that question in a new thread, and I'll bury you with a list of games that truly are.

And you said it yourself: even if an Elf becomes rich, he's still stuck living in the Alienage. Well? There's only one reason for that: Wealth doesn't automatically equate to Power in Kirkwall. So Obviously, DA2 is not a rags to riches story. it's a Rise to Power story.

[hero 2]

LobselVith8 wrote...

A lot of characters do things that are nonsensical - Decimus, Grace, Orsino, Meredith... I don't agree that it was well-written with such ludicrious moments from those characters, in addition to how inhumanly passive Hawke was.

I don't think all of those people do nonsensical things, Orsino does crazynonsense, but that's the only one on your list that I agree with.

I think the passivity of Hawke is an example of how people are tossed about in the washing machine of events. Hurled into the chaos...

[LobselVith8]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Really? You think that the nobles and Meredith would have given that title to a non-human (even a rich non-human?) or a poor Feledren dog of a human who saved the city? Hawke after Act I had status, money, ties to nobility through his mother and power already. Defending the city and becoming the Champion was just the icing on the cake. 

While it isn't always applicable, shouldn't it be a bigger deal that an apostate can become Champion? Considering how mages can't legally inherit a title in the first place, and are supposed to be in the local Circle Tower.

[Realmzmaster]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Really? You think that the nobles and Meredith would have given that title to a non-human (even a rich non-human?) or a poor Feledren dog of a human who saved the city? Hawke after Act I had status, money, ties to nobility through his mother and power already. Defending the city and becoming the Champion was just the icing on the cake. 

While it isn't always applicable, shouldn't it be a bigger deal that an apostate can become Champion? Considering how mages can't legally inherit a title in the first place, and are supposed to be in the local Circle Tower.

I have already state on the forums that the mage option was handle very poorly. I gave my ideas on how it could have been handle much better.
The title of Champion is conferred not inherited. It just like if you are an elf warden and get conferred the title Champions of Redcliffe by Arl Eamon. The title is earn through actions that are beneficial to the conferring party. Hawkes case was that he saved the nobles. So a mage (even if he/she is in the Circle) can be conferred the title. Once the apostate mage saved the nobles he/she becomes virtually untouchable.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:12 .

[LobselVith8]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I have already state on the forums that the mage option was handle very poorly. I gave my ideas on how it could have been handle much better.
The title of Champion is conferred not inherited. It just like if you are an elf warden and get conferred the title Champions of Redcliffe by Arl Eamon. The title is earn through actions that are beneficial to the conferring party. Hawkes case was that he saved the nobles. So a mage (even if he/she is in the Circle) can be conferred the title.

True, but his status as a noble was my point. I don't see why stopping the Arishok as an elf or a dwarf would be any less of an issue than if Hawke was an illegal mage. In the latter case, his existance as an apostate is a criminal act. It isn't as though Thedas doesn't have non-human heroes: the Fourth Blight was stopped by the elven Garahel (by uniting the Free Marches against the darkspawn). And the Hero of Ferelden can be non-human.

[Realmzmaster]

Yrkoon wrote...

Why is that question relevant when DA2 is not a rags to riches story? Go to the off topic forum and ask that question in a new thread, and I'll bury you with a list of games that truly are.

And you said it yourself: even if an Elf becomes rich, he's still stuck living in the Alienage. Well? There's only one reason for that: Wealth doesn't automatically equate to Power in Kirkwall. So Obviously, DA2 is not a rags to riches story. it's a Rise to Power story.

Topic is set up in the the off topic section. Hit me with your list.

[Realmzmaster]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I have already state on the forums that the mage option was handle very poorly. I gave my ideas on how it could have been handle much better.
The title of Champion is conferred not inherited. It just like if you are an elf warden and get conferred the title Champions of Redcliffe by Arl Eamon. The title is earn through actions that are beneficial to the conferring party. Hawkes case was that he saved the nobles. So a mage (even if he/she is in the Circle) can be conferred the title.

True, but his status as a noble was my point. I don't see why stopping the Arishok as an elf or a dwarf would be any less of an issue than if Hawke was an illegal mage. In the latter case, his existance as an apostate is a criminal act. It isn't as though Thedas doesn't have non-human heroes: the Fourth Blight was stopped by the elven Garahel (by uniting the Free Marches against the darkspawn). And the Hero of Ferelden can be non-human.

An elf or dwarf could become champion if allowed . The question is whether the nobles would be as accepting of a dwarf or elf given the racism that exists in Kirkwall. A elf mage would be a double whammy.
The PC in DAO has the warden title as a plot shield against the racism that may occur. I find that to be lame.  Also note that only a human noble warden is allowed to marry Anora. If you are a elf, dwarf or mage it is not possible.

I will give a RL example. The Montford Point Marines. As far as the nation was concerned they were black first and Marines second. The uniform nor their heroics did nothing to change the racism that was faced or the attitude of the nation. Or the Tuskagee Airmen. it did not matter that they were one of the best fying forces during WWII when they got home they were still black and subject to all the Jim Crow laws of the time. In fact it took decades for any of them to be recognized for what they did.

I assume a elf or dwarf in Kirkwall would face the same uphill battle if the racism was the same way. A human mage would be more acceptable. He/she would be seen as one of us and exemplary because they are able to control their magic for the greater good.. 

[Yrkoon]

The title of champion is irrespective of political status, financial status or Race, . Nor does it require appointment by nobility.

http://dragonage.wik...Champion_(rogue)

In fact, it's not even a symbol of approval.

Not that ANY of this matters though.  You have shamelessly  changed the subject.  Your initial argument was that DA2 is a rags to riches story.  But having no  actual case to support such a claim,  you're now trying to bring race into the equation, as if it's somehow impossible for a non-human to go from poor to rich.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:06 .

[Realmzmaster]

Yrkoon wrote...

The title of champion is irrespective of political status, financial status or Race, . Nor does it require appointment by nobility.

http://dragonage.wik...Champion_(rogue)

In fact, it's not even a symbol of approval.

Not that ANY of this matters though.  You have shamelessly  changed the subject.  Your initial argument was that DA2 is a rags to riches story.  But having no  actual case to support such a claim,  you're now trying to bring race into the equation, as if it's somehow impossible for a non-human to go from poor to rich.

The title of champion is granted as stated in the codex. The story is still rags to riches becuase Hawke has nothing when he gets three and gathers wealth. The wealth allows him to get status. In the process of gaining that wealth he develops influence and impresses certain parties such as the Arishok and the Viscount. He is then called upon by both the Arishok and Viscount.

The Viscount himself states that Hawke has influence above his station. Hawke would not have hgained that influence with his pursuit of wealth. It is only because of his need for wealth and status that Hawke takes the job of looking for the Viscount's son or helping the Dwarf in Blackpowder compromise. Hawke is not looking for power in either case. Therefore I consider it a rags to riches story. The fact that he rises to power is because he is defending all that his wealth has acquired.

Hawke had no intention of rising to power that accomplishment was thrushed upon him because of circumstance. Hawke did not actively seek power. Hawke did actively seek wealth.

[Kelgair]

Nefla wrote...

Kelgair wrote...

Nefla wrote...

The point of origins was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game.

Becomes

Nefla wrote...

The point of DA2 was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game.

Aaaaand, we're done!

I really didn't mean to hurt your feelings, I wasn't trying to say DA2 was horrible or anything.

No feelings have been hurt, you're just arguing from a flawed position. Which I beleive I pointed out in the quote.

[Heimdall]

I maintain that DA2 was an experiment for Bioware (and EA), two experiments really. The first was to try a plethora of new ideas including a new narrative structure that they hadn't tried out before. Most Bioware games have used the tried and true 'quest to defeat the rising evil' plot line after all. The second experiment was to see if they could turn out a AAA title with such a short development cycle.

If they had only tried one of these experiments, I actually think we would have gotten a much higher quality product.

The irrationally optimistic conspiratorial portion of my mind thinks that the Dragon Age team chose to do both experiments knowing that the quality would suffer, a sort of sacrificial lamb gamble. The idea being that they could point to the game's non-stellar success when convincing EA to give them more time for the next one.

[Orian Tabris]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

This has already been adequately addressed, but I'm going to address it again, since I got here late....

Realmzmaster wrote...
How many crpgs do you know that have rags to riches plots?

Dragon Age 2  does not have a 'Rags to Riches' plot.  it has a "rise to power" plot.  Big difference.   You're not given the "champion of Kirkwall" title at the end of Act two because you managed to 'get rich", you get it because  of your power - because you saved  the city from a big, evil, foreign threat and have now gained the respect of every important person in the city.

And  that's a very common  plot (cliche, even) in Fantasy RPGs

Really? You think that the nobles and Meredith would have given that title to a non-human (even a rich non-human?) or a poor Feledren dog of a human who saved the city? Hawke after Act I had status, money, ties to nobility through his mother and power already. Defending the city and becoming the Champion was just the icing on the cake. 

Neither of you quite get what kind of plot it is. I'll explain. From the start of the Prologue, to the start of Act 2, it was a 'rags to riches' plot, but it was a 'rise to power' plot as well. Hawke was completely powerless at the start of the game, but then their power started to emerge. Initially, that power was only noticable at the end of Hawke's family's 1st year in Kirkwall, and that power kept growing all the way to Act 2, but didn't stop there.

From the start of Act 2, to the start of Act 3, it was only a 'rise to power' plot, continuing Hawke's rise to power. The rags to riches plot ended there. I don't remember Hawke ever, story-wise being even more rich after that. Act 3, however, seemed to be purely about wrapping up the earlier stories, with a new 'how the war began' kind of plot. Though that may have also appeared in Act 2, somewhere. Maybe at the start?

Anyway, there's not always one explanation to something.

Edit: Hawke technically did have status, at the start of Act 1, it just wasn't a nobility status. It was more of a 'get things done' kind of status. A status that was more or less, an underground one. But it started after Hawke moved in with his uncle. Later, Hawke's status changed to that of nobility - when he/she gained (more?) power.

Modifié par Orian Tabris, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:10 .

[Yrkoon]

Realmzmaster wrote...
Hawke had no intention of rising to power that accomplishment was thrushed upon him because of circumstance. Hawke did not actively seek power. Hawke did actively seek wealth.

BS.  Hawke's intention is what the player makes it.     But the goal is stated on the game box:  Rise to power by any means necessary.

You're certainly free to try and roleplay a hawke who doesn't have any motivation beyond simply  making money, but the game will not respond.. You'll be stuck, unable to continue sometime near the end of Act 2, when the game suddenly shifts gears on you and forces you into doing major, wholly altruistic, plot specific things that have exactly nothing to do with monitary gain but everything to do with rising in power.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:01 .

[Nefla]

Kelgair wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Kelgair wrote...

Nefla wrote...

The point of origins was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game.

Becomes

Nefla wrote...

The point of DA2 was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game.

Aaaaand, we're done!

I really didn't mean to hurt your feelings, I wasn't trying to say DA2 was horrible or anything.

No feelings have been hurt, you're just arguing from a flawed position. Which I beleive I pointed out in the quote.

You just don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying here. You said something along the lines of the purpose of DA2 was to tell the story of the circles revolting because players would be confused if that happened between DA:O and DA3. I stated that since that event only happened in the last hour of DA2, the event could have been put in an origins type story or prologue in DA3, if the point of the game was what you said, then there was no need for DA2. When you asked "well what was the point of origins then?" my answer was of course "The point of origins was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game." It wasn't made with sequels in mind, it wasn't made as filler or a bridge, it was made to be an entertaining adventure of its own.

[Cadeym]

The purpose of the game was to tell a story of how Hawke was elevated to a position of power. The game however never really manages to make the player feels as if Hawke becomes influential.

Hawke never uses his/her position as a noble for anything other than living a better life.
Hawke never uses his/her position as a champion to influense the situation in Kirkwall.

Throughout the entire game everything remains status quo and no amount of player imput changes the situation at hand.
The lives of the people in Kirkwall never changes during the game, therefore we have stagnation.

Throughout the game we are presented with alot of opportunities to make a difference, yet we are never allowed to actually pursue them.
1) Helping templars / mages doesn't have an impact on the story. No matter your choices you will always have to kill the mages and templars that are working together.
2) Buying a mine doesn't change the lives of the people in Kirkwall or the condition of the city.
3) Becoming the champion doesn't have an impact on the world.

Why not provide us with the options to.
1) Use the money from the deeproads to buy a house in hightown or spent the money on improving the houses in lowtown.
2) Become a politician if you bought the house in hightown or become the spokesman, landlord, unofficial viscount of lowntown if you improved it's condition.
3) After becoming champion, why not allow us to side with either side and have the situation change or remain neutral as it currently is in the game.

This could allow for different endings where a templar blew up the circle or possibly even the chantry because you managed to persuade whats her name into taking action.

Modifié par Mouseraider, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:46 .

[Kelgair]

Nefla wrote...

~snip snip~

You just don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying here. You said something along the lines of the purpose of DA2 was to tell the story of the circles revolting because players would be confused if that happened between DA:O and DA3. I stated that since that event only happened in the last hour of DA2, the event could have been put in an origins type story or prologue in DA3, if the point of the game was what you said, then there was no need for DA2. When you asked "well what was the point of origins then?" my answer was of course "The point of origins was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game." It wasn't made with sequels in mind, it wasn't made as filler or a bridge, it was made to be an entertaining adventure of its own.

First off, if you think Origins wasn't made with sequels in mind... well um. I'm not sure how to explain this to you but... heh... hehahahHAHAHH... yeeeeaaah. NO. That's kind of the whole point of a game that a developer hopes spawns a whole franchise. To produce sequels... such as DA2. Anyways...

Ahh yes, back to DA2. Wait, you say I said "something along the lines of 'the purpose of DA2 was to tell the story of the circles revolting because players would be confused if that happened between DA:O and DA3'?" That's BS, I said ONE of the reasons for DA2 was about the circles revolting and even if it wasn't you couldn't tell that story in one origin. It took from Act 1 to Act 3 in DA2 (multiple years) to establish why Anders wanted to plant his explosives. To deny there were multiple reasons for Anders (and a half dozen other things happening in Kirkwall that relate to the mage rebellion at the same time) is ignorant to the story we know and to lump all of them into one origin is lazy since It's quite clear multiple things that occured in DA2 affect the world of DA and not just the mage vs templar story.

Although if you do insist on being vague about what happens in DA2. I might add why I originally asked what was the point of Origins. Since YOUR point was that the mage vs. templar war can be summed up in an Origin.

They could introduce the circles revolting in the beginning of a game and it doesn't need to have anything to do with anyone in particular, just "the mages are finally starting to revolt."

I know you can summarize what happend in Origins in one or two codex entries since they did it in DA2. :innocent:

Edit: Some formating

Modifié par Kelgair, 04 juillet 2012 - 08:45 .

[Nefla]

Kelgair wrote...
First off, if you think Origins wasn't made with sequels in mind... well um. I'm not sure how to explain this to you but... heh... hehahahHAHAHH... yeeeeaaah. NO. That's kind of the whole point of a game that a developer hopes spawns a whole franchise. To produce sequels... such as DA2. Anyways...

Ahh yes, back to DA2. Wait, you say I said "something along the lines of 'the purpose of DA2 was to tell the story of the circles revolting because players would be confused if that happened between DA:O and DA3'?" That's BS, I said ONE of the reasons for DA2 was about the circles revolting and even if it wasn't you couldn't tell that story in one origin. It took from Act 1 to Act 3 in DA2 (multiple years) to establish why Anders wanted to plant his explosives. To deny there were multiple reasons for Anders (and a half dozen other things happening in Kirkwall that relate to the mage rebellion at the same time) is ignorant to the story we know and to lump all of them into one origin is lazy since It's quite clear multiple things that occured in DA2 affect the world of DA and not just the mage vs templar story.

Although if you do insist on being vague about what happens in DA2. I might add why I originally asked what was the point of Origins. Since YOUR point was that the mage vs. templar war can be summed up in an Origin.

They could introduce the circles revolting in the beginning of a game and it doesn't need to have anything to do with anyone in particular, just "the mages are finally starting to revolt."

I know you can summarize what happend in Origins in one or two codex entries since they did it in DA2. :innocent:

Edit: Some formating

-A game being made with the hopes that it would spawn a series is much different than a game being created for the sole purpose of filler/bridging a gap between two actual series instalments. Assasin's creed Brotherhood and Revelations were this type, DA2 is (at best) this type.

-DA:O and Awakening already established how mages were treated in Thedas, an extra game showing multiple unrelated instances of random templars being mean to random mages was not essential. In fact, I thought DA:O did a much better job of showing the unfair treatment of mages in just the mage origin and circle quest than DA2 did in the whole game. In DA:O the mages are locked up in the tower from the time they are taken there as children until the day they die. They can leave only rarely, and only with special permission. In DA2 mages are running in and out of the gallows freely, sneaking out and making plots with templars, easily escaping, etc...this is treated as a teenager breaking cerfew or something and not seriously. In DA:O all blood mages are executed without exception, and their acomplices are sent to a horrible prison. In DA2 blood mages are accepted back into the circle and a few are made tranquil at random. Their acomplice (Hawke) recieves no consequence at all. You can flat out tell Cullen that your dangerous possesed apostate buddy Anders is plotting against the Chantry and he does nothing, there is no consequence no investigation, nothing. You yourself can be a blatant apostate, blood mage, kill templars at every turn and you get to stay free. In DA:O that would never fly.

-DA2 was a disjointed game with a water thin plot. None of the arcs were connected in any way. The game should have been called "Hawke's delivery service" because you spend 99% of the game delivering junk and running errands for people with no reason to do so and no real goal. Sure you could summarize DA:O in a codex entry, you could summarize anything that way but then you'd be missing out on a great game with varied locations, awesome characters, fun and varied quests, and a great story. You summarize DA2 and you miss out on some really good character moments but the plot itself is weak AND poorly done. Fable 3 is more cohesive than DA2.

The whole point of all of your arguments seems to be that you personally love DA2 and don't like it when people say negative things about your game. That's fine, you can like DA2 all you want and DA2 isn't going anywhere you can still have your enjoyment but that doesn't change the fact that it's a very flawed game that was definitely rushed. Even if it had been executed amazingly, it still would have been character focused and NOT plot focused. We spent way more time matchmaking for Aveline, stealing ships for Isabella, etc...than we did actually doing anything that affected anything.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

The purpose of the game was for you to buy it OP. You fullfilled that quota, the end.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Bourne2Play wrote...

I'm a late comer to the DA series. I played DA:O four months ago and thought it was one of the best games I have ever played. Completely epic game from start to finish. And then I picked up DA2. I'm not gonna add to what's been said about this game from different people. All those issues are obvious (terrible story, reused enviornments, etc..)

But what really gets me is the purpose of this game? I spent 50 hours on it and did each and ever quest. What was the point?? DA:O had a very clear purpose from the beginning: Unite everyone (the circle, the elves, the dwarves, etc..) against the blight. It was an epic journey with an epic conclusion.

 Not so much with DA2. This whole game, including its main plot quests, felt like SIDE quests. This game had no reason to exist whatsoever. What a major disapointment.

In truth, I think it was just a stopgap. It's story wasn't that important, and if it was, it sure didn't feel that way.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Considering how Asunder basically says the mages did nothing after Kirkwall, it served little purpose except for introducing different conflicts into the universe which we already knew existed--except for the red lyrium, which was just stupid in general and should just not exist.

Kind of silly that Asunder is the straw that broke the camel's back and not Kirkwall like DA2 implied it to be.

Conflicts that shouldn't have needed this much of an introduction, either; DAO had enough of a backstory to rely on past event to explain most of the current situations, and there's no real reason why a "Dragon Age: Uprising" couldn't simply have done the same (with another novel if need be).

All DAII really does is provide the player with a firsthand account of the events that led to the events that led to the story that will (seemingly) matter. We could have just gotten a proper game that started some time into the Mage-Templar War, the possibility of which was already kind of hinted at during Awakening if you saved Wynne.

Speaking of Wynne, what they did with her in Asunder was kind of a shame, as in light of the what I assume/hope to be more political story of the upcoming game, it would've been interesting to be able to see her in various positions of power depending on the events of Origins, such as court mage/advisor to the Fereldan monarch or First Enchanter of the Circle of Ferelden.

Same with Anders and DAII, I suppose: much discontent about his portrayal could've been prevented if he, assuming he survived Awakening, simply stayed with the Wardens and by the time of DAIII (which should've been DAII) had become a respected member of the Order, and eventually uses his newfound influence against the Chantry he so despises. Which, staying with Grey Warden involvement in politics for a bit, a Warden Alistair may or may not agree with (perhaps depending on him being hardened or not?), but a still living Warden Loghain would no doubtedly oppose.

Looking at things like these, it seems like the DA team is almost as adept as its ME equivalent when it comes to wasting perfectly fine plot points and characters in nonsensical manners, all whilst forcing certain other ones on the player no matter what (such as Leliana and most of DAII's story), preventing the series from reaching true depth, which I'd say is much needed at this point.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:12 .

[Teahuppoo]

They could introduce the Templar/Mage thing, the same way they introduced the darkspawn in the first game.

[Kelgair]

Going to block quote my last big response then respond in blocks to your last response Nefla.

[quote] Kelgair wrote...
First off, if you think Origins wasn't made with sequels in mind... well um. I'm not sure how to explain this to you but... heh... hehahahHAHAHH... yeeeeaaah. NO. That's kind of the whole point of a game that a developer hopes spawns a whole franchise. To produce sequels... such as DA2. Anyways...

Ahh yes, back to DA2. Wait, you say I said "something along the lines of 'the purpose of DA2 was to tell the story of the circles revolting because players would be confused if that happened between DA:O and DA3'?" That's BS, I said ONE of the reasons for DA2 was about the circles revolting and even if it wasn't you couldn't tell that story in one origin. It took from Act 1 to Act 3 in DA2 (multiple years) to establish why Anders wanted to plant his explosives. To deny there were multiple reasons for Anders (and a half dozen other things happening in Kirkwall that relate to the mage rebellion at the same time) is ignorant to the story we know and to lump all of them into one origin is lazy since It's quite clear multiple things that occured in DA2 affect the world of DA and not just the mage vs templar story.

Although if you do insist on being vague about what happens in DA2. I might add why I originally asked what was the point of Origins. Since YOUR point was that the mage vs. templar war can be summed up in an Origin.
[quote]They could introduce the circles revolting in the beginning of a game and it doesn't need to have anything to do with anyone in particular, just "the mages are finally starting to revolt."[/quote]I know you can summarize what happend in Origins in one or two codex entries since they did it in DA2. :innocent:

[/quote]

To start.

[quote] Nefla... - A game being made with the hopes that it would spawn a series is much different than a game being created for the sole purpose of filler/bridging a gap between two actual series instalments. Assasin's creed Brotherhood and Revelations were this type, DA2 is (at best) this type. [/quote]
But that's not even close to what you were talking about. [quote] Nefla wrote... my answer was of course "The point of origins was to tell a good story and be an entertaining game." It wasn't made with sequels in mind. [/quote] You originally insisted that Origins was ment to be some game with no sequels in mind. It was just to tell a good story after all. So fine, you were completly lying about your Origins opinion. I'm used to that. But, seriously? Do we really have to go into the differences between the narratives of Assassins Creed and Dagon Age(sic) [Dragon Age], and what complete and utter bull***t your, and any, comparison between the two are Game-wise and Story-wise?
[quote] Nefla wrote... -DA:O and Awakening already established how mages were treated in Thedas, an extra game showing multiple unrelated instances of random templars being mean to random mages was not essential. In fact, I thought DA:O did a much better job of showing the unfair treatment of mages in just the mage origin and circle quest than DA2 did in the whole game. In DA:O the mages are locked up in the tower from the time they are taken there as children until the day they die. They can leave only rarely, and only with special permission. In DA2 mages are running in and out of the gallows freely, sneaking out and making plots with templars, easily escaping, etc...this is treated as a teenager breaking cerfew or something and not seriously.[/quote] Ummm, really? Really? Did you even play a mage in DA:O? I JUST finished a playthrough of a warden mage, and by the maker compared to what I'm about to see other mages experience on my playthrough on my male sarcastic!Hawk playthrough. My Warden Ferelden Mage experience was a cakewalk of niceties compared to Kirkwall. Since the Ferelden templars were mostly sane and passive [which I might add not only helped Uldred a ton, but allowed Jowan to escape]. The ONLY hardships that was common were the standard  "We've got an eye on you or we might do something about you going crazy". Hell the Ferelden circle just kept recapturing Anders SEVEN TIMES rather than put him through the Rite of Tranquility. What? That's right the Rite of Tranquility wasn't even a mentioned response for Anders or any uppity mage in DA:O/DA:A. But booooy were there a ton of Templars abusing that power in DA2, where the hell was THAT connection between Origins and DA2 if Origin mages had it so rough?  BTW, what damn mages are running in and out of the Gallows freely? There's a crap ton of Maleficar, Apostates, and random blood mages in the Kirkwall area but they sure as hell don't have their room and board set up in the local Templar HQ!
[quote] Nefla wrote... In DA:O all blood mages are executed without exception, and their acomplices are sent to a horrible prison. [/quote] Huh, You can let Jowan and the Tevinter slaver go free if you wish, they're both blood mages. Jowans accomplace (Lily) IS sent to Aeonar but that's the only time any associate of a blood mage is properly delt with in Dragon Age. But... uhh, oh look down...

[quote] Nefla wrote...  In DA2 blood mages are accepted back into the circle and a few are made tranquil at random. Their acomplice (Hawke) recieves no consequence at all. You can flat out tell Cullen that your dangerous possesed apostate buddy Anders is plotting against the Chantry and he does nothing, there is no consequence no investigation, nothing. You yourself can be a blatant apostate, blood mage, kill templars at every turn and you get to stay free. [/quote] Now HERE'S where I can agree with you! Although I don't know of any Blood Mages (that you know of at the time) that are accepted back to the circle. Hell yeah I wish turning in Anders or being a blatant Blood Mage would affect the story! 

[quote] Nefla... In DA:O that would never fly. [/quote] My just going through the entire DA:O/DA:A games and not getting a response for me being a blood mage  the entire time proves that to be bunk.
[quote] Nefla wrote... DA2 was a disjointed game with a water thin plot. None of the arcs were connected in any way. The game should have been called "Hawke's delivery service" because you spend 99% of the game delivering junk and running errands for people with no reason to do so and no real goal. [/quote] >.> I don't know whether to laugh at your ignorance on how the plot went or to laugh at how you consider quests like Skin Deep, or a crap ton of other DA:O quests NOT to be "Warden delivery service".  

[quote] Nefla Wrote... Sure you could summarize DA:O in a codex entry, you could summarize anything that way but then you'd be missing out on a great game with varied locations, awesome characters, fun and varied quests, and a great story. You summarize DA2 and you miss out on some really good character moments but the plot itself is weak AND poorly done. Fable 3 is more cohesive than DA2. [/quote]
I knew you were full of it from the beginning, but that last sentence cemented it.

[quote] Nefla wrote... The whole point of all of your arguments seems to be that you personally love DA2 and don't like it when people say negative things about your game. That's fine, you can like DA2 all you want and DA2 isn't going anywhere you can still have your enjoyment but that doesn't change the fact that it's a very flawed game that was definitely rushed. Even if it had been executed amazingly, it still would have been character focused and NOT plot focused. We spent way more time matchmaking for Aveline, stealing ships for Isabella, etc...than we did actually doing anything that affected anything.  [/quote]
Part of the points of my arguments IS in fact that I enjoy the DA2 story, Nothin wrong with that. But I also love the DA:O story; otherwise I wouldn't keep putting it up as a comparison.  They're both good stories and I goddamn stand by that.

Oh, and saying we're getting too much character story when "we steal ships for Isabella" after saying
[quote] Nefla wrote... In DA:O all blood mages are executed without exception. [/quote] ... Doesn't help your case one bit...

Edit: Heh... Dagon Age... I'm leavin that mistype in. Ya Dagon! Ya Cthulhu!

Modifié par Kelgair, 09 juillet 2012 - 01:20 .

[AcidRelic]

I almost feel that DA2 is like ME2 in a way. The main focus besides setting up DA3 for the Mage/Templar story is Companions. Looking at the guide again, the spreadsheet for the quest show more than HALF of all the quests are companion quests.

The reason it makes me feel like ME2 is because the whole point of ME2 was connecting to companions and giving an emotional connection to them. Maybe they set this game up to have more in depth cameos/quests or even bring back alot of the companions for DA3.

If they did anything right in ME2 it's the connection and feeling you got about helping your old crew from ME1 and 2, though some could have had longer/more content, the feeling I got about them was personal.

Modifié par AcidRelic, 08 juillet 2012 - 06:21 .