249 réponses à ce sujet

[Pimpmyvanagon]

Drider-man wrote...

Also, pimpmyvanagon, you might be the descendant of a Teyrn but you're not the next in line, your older brother is. Not that I'm sure that makes a difference but it's my best bet

Until the very end of the game, when your brother appears out of nowhere, you are the heir-apparent to Highever, as Fergus is missing presumed dead. Well, after you kill Howe you are, anyway.

Mr. Gaider, perhaps you could explain the distinction that makes Anora a queen rather than a princess-consort? As near as I can tell her social station when she marries Cailan is exactly the same as your player character would be in when you can marry Alistair. Why does she actually become monarch in her own right, when your character presumably (by use of the princess-consort or prince-consort title) would not have been able to in the exact same situation (that is, even if Alistair/Anora had died following the marriage and coronation)?

Modifié par Pimpmyvanagon, 15 décembre 2009 - 01:42 .

[Drider-man]

Pimpmyvanagon wrote...

Drider-man wrote...

Also, pimpmyvanagon, you might be the descendant of a Teyrn but you're not the next in line, your older brother is. Not that I'm sure that makes a difference but it's my best bet

Until the very end of the game, when your brother appears out of nowhere, you are the heir-apparent to Highever, as Fergus is missing presumed dead. Well, after you kill Howe you are, anyway.

Mr. Gaider, perhaps you could explain the distinction that makes Anora a queen rather than a princess-consort? As near as I can tell her social station when she marries Cailan is exactly the same as your player character would be in when you can marry Alistair. Why does she actually become monarch in her own right, when your character presumably (by use of the princess-consort or prince-consort title) would not have been able to in the exact same situation (that is, even if Alistair/Anora had died following the marriage and coronation)?

Truth be told, I pretty much forgot about Fergus in my playthrough. When he arrived at the epilogue I was wondering who the hell he was, until I talked to him.
But I digress. You're right, PC and Anora seem to have the exact same conditions when ascending the throne, strange. Almost seems like the monarchs don't trust our characters no matter the gender... I can understand why Anora won't let a male noble be king, but why wouldn't Alistair let his wife be queen?
I second a "Mr. Gaider can you give us an answer to this?"

[adembroski11]

I'm not entirely sure why people are even bringing up the Couslands. Outside of making them suitable marriage candidates, I don't remember any linkage to the throne being implied in the game.



At no point do you have the ability to marry in the game, so unless it happens after the game ends, there is no way for you to secure yourself the throne.



So far as I know, the candidates go as thus: Alistair, Anora, Arl Eamon, Connor, Teagan.

[Nate Stone]

My PC is now king with Anora as my Queen hehehe

[Apophis2412]

Nate Stone wrote...

My PC is now king with Anora as my Queen hehehe

You mean Prince-consort. 

[Apophis2412]

I find it strange that people sya htey have a claim to the throne because they are a Cousland and their father is a Teryn.
But they forget that Loghain was also a Teryn. The Mac Tir's might be just as powerful as the Couslands for all we know.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Invalidcode wrote...

They have to & will help you against the Blight, but not a civil war against Eamon.

Exactly.

The army you have gathered is only there to fight the Blight. Once the Blight is defeated, the Dwarves are headed back underground to fight in the Deep Roads, and the Dalish are returning to the forest. They are your allies, not your personal army. The same is true of the human soldiers. They serve their individual banns and Arls, and the only ones with any personal loyalty to you after everything is said in done is possibly Highever, since Fergus is named Teyrn. The PC would need more than the support of Highever however, to rule all of Ferelden.

The PC isn't going to have any support in waging a civil war for the crown following the Blight. Any attempt at seizing the crown by force would just expose the PC to the same problems Loghain faced: highly independent freeholders and banns that resented their traditional rights being trampled on, and who weren't too keen on kneeling to a tyrant. The monarchy in Ferelden is not an absolute one. It rules only with the consent of the freeholders.

[Lughsan35]

Another example of evil failing because evil is stoopid...

[Mesecina]

David Gaider wrote...

Put a Grey Warden on the throne, one who isn't the last Theirin and whose main claim restson the fact she was about to marry the King-to-be?

The last Theirin as in THE LAST Theirin or supposedly the last Theirin? Did someone just have a slip of tongue (errr finger)  Or am I nitpicking?

However on topic: it's pretty damn logical you can't be Queen because putting engagement to Alistair aside since he's kinda dead in your scenario and even assuming you still had Cousland privileges Anora's claim to the throne would be higher and she never gave up her rights and even Alistair says "keep her around in case I don't survive the battle then we'll find a warm and fuzzy tower for her" (well something like that), so tehcnically until Alistair returns from the battle Anora is still Queen.

And even if we put Anora aside and assume you have all the Cousland privileges Arl Eamon and Bann Teagan probably still have a higher claim to the throne as they say that Alistair should be put on throne because of his birthright overpowering Anora's and their right through marriage = Eamon's claim to the throne is almost equal to Anora's and therefor higher than any Cousland's

At least that's my understanding of Ferelden's politics

[Vicious]

The rules of succession are something I've been WTFing about for a while.



My guess is this:





If you marry Alistair you become Queen. That is because his love for you is genuine and his trust is as well.



If you marry Anora you become prince-consort. Not a King because if you ARE a King, you would be a threat to her power, and unlike Alistair you didn't spend the game romancing her. If you did she MIGHT make you King. But since it's pretty much a political arrangement from the get-go Anora will seek to limit your power in case you turn out to be a power hungry psycho and try to off her.





And that's why she's Queen despite Cailan's death, and that's why a male human noble could never be King.





Nevermind that the Couslands are one of the oldest noble families of Ferelden and that they always fought for freedom, and died hard before bending knee to Tyrants. [Orlais, that corrupt King who took over Warden's Keep i forget his name]



Couslands are a freakin family of heroes. They don't have any links to the throne because at least in what's in the game lore, they never aspired to it, and tended to fight Kings rather than follow them.



Marry Alistair if you're a woman, but if you're a man don't put the guy on the throne. His bloodline is all but spent and never exactly guaranteed peace and plenty for the people. Hell go far back enough and you'll find that the originator of the bloodline, King Calenhad, got the loyalty of the Couslands at the point of a sword.

[Axterix]

Vicious wrote...

The rules of succession are something I've been WTFing about for a while.

The main WTF for me is this:

Why is a Grey Warden even possibly considered for the throne?

You become a Warden, you give up the ties, rank, privileges, whatever.  You are a Warden now and forever.

Putting a Grey Warden on the throne is just a bad idea.  You cannot be fully dedicated to your country and the Warden cause.  Additionally, it can lead to all sorts of ugliness, of Wardens getting dragged into things they shouldn't be involved in.  Political maneuvering might well require taking out a Warden, for example.  Or else joining the Wardens might be seen as an avenue to political power (Warden king, supported by his Wardens), leading to the long term corruption of the organization.  Or a Warden might attempt to stage a coup or have a coup staged in his/her name.  And then, next thing you know, boom, Wardens are kicked out of the country.

Basically, as a Noble, I definitely would not support a Grey Warden for King/Queen, at least, not if there's another perfectly viable alternative (like, say, the rightful Queen).  And, if I were someone in charge of the Wardens, I'd definitely do whatever is in my power to insure a Grey Warden does not seek political power.

[asaiasai]

Something to ponder is while i agree with the OP about the major letdown the ending was in her particular case. Anora was in prison locked in the same prison you were when Ser Catherine whipped your ass when you rescued the whinny little twit presumably with whinny little twit of royal desent along for the ride? So Anora is locked in prison, the same prison you were, When Dererim comes under attack, the tower (prison) is overrun with darkspawn and undead. How did she survive, and seriously why would she survive especially if i am walking through there with designs on the throne, accompanied by ole spinless, happen to stumble across Anora having a bad accident at the hands of the roaming minions in the prison.



So OP you tellem! Your plan was flawless, perfectly executed, but you got hosed by the desire for a neat little concise story package, and possibly time constraints, which they probably got tired of writing all the possible conclusions that towards the end they figured "whos gonna notice, and complain, we gotta get this out EA is busting our balls"



Asai

[menasure]

you should have an option to kill Anora at first sight because she clearly sets you up with the whole 'rescue' her story and besides being a very irritating arrogant person she is simply too untrustworthy to let her live. unfortunately you do not have that option and Alistair is too spineless to do it for you if you win the landsmeet ... though it would complicate matters greatly if you just execute her there i imagine but it seems to work well enough on Loghain. lol.

the thing is: why would you ever count on Alistair to do anything right? the whole problem is that he's spineless yet that is the guy you are supposed to support for new king. he only divided the country more than if Loghain just rules because he follows Earl Eamon like a puppy just like he follows you and is prone to make irrational decisions in general or at least whine about them.
with a trickster like Anora alive he's just another easy victim for her but with a lack of a really evil ending and your character set up from the start for an untimely death one way or another i actually see it as a fitting punishment if Alistair and Anora end up married out of 'convenience' reasons because they practically hate eachother .

Modifié par menasure, 15 décembre 2009 - 11:53 .

[Kiln223]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Your logic was flawed.

I swear to god this is what I was going to reply to the above comment.

[Xandurpein]

Check out the history of Queen Elizabeth I of England. I still think she's a decent comparison to Anora btw. She succeded to the throne when her sister Mary died and Elizabeth spent most of Mary's reign in jail. She's not the only case from English history either. Basically it comes down to:

First runner up to throne and don't get along with King/Queen = The tower dungeon

King/Queen you don't get along with dies = Get out of jail and become King/Queen

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

asaiasai wrote...

Something to ponder is while i agree with the OP about the major letdown the ending was in her particular case. Anora was in prison locked in the same prison you were when Ser Catherine whipped your ass when you rescued the whinny little twit presumably with whinny little twit of royal desent along for the ride? So Anora is locked in prison, the same prison you were, When Dererim comes under attack, the tower (prison) is overrun with darkspawn and undead. How did she survive, and seriously why would she survive especially if i am walking through there with designs on the throne, accompanied by ole spinless, happen to stumble across Anora having a bad accident at the hands of the roaming minions in the prison.

So OP you tellem! Your plan was flawless, perfectly executed, but you got hosed by the desire for a neat little concise story package, and possibly time constraints, which they probably got tired of writing all the possible conclusions that towards the end they figured "whos gonna notice, and complain, we gotta get this out EA is busting our balls"

Asai

Denerim comes under attack from the Darkspawn, which buildings do you think they would evacuate first?

Thats right, the Fort and Palace. One other thing to point out, Alastair never said she was to be locked in Fort Drakon anyway, he said to just put her in a tower somewhere. But even if she had, considering how empty those cells were when the player was in, if she was in there it would be easy to get her out.

So your logic is flawed as was that of the OP because if their character was the noble she was supposed to be, she would have known the true rites of succession and that she wasn't technically a queen. A Noble not knowing their own laws, tsk...

[Korva]

Wardens and politics best aren't mixed, yes. And as for Anora, it's quite possible she was evacuated under heavy guard when the horde approached. Denerim is a port city. If I was in charge, I'd lock down the harbor and confiscate all mooring and incoming ships once scouts tell me that thousands of darkspawn led by a twisted dragon are making a beeline for Denerim. Throw as many people on the ships as possible to get them out. Anora as a high-ranking noblewoman who may be "needed" for the throne should Alistait bite it would definitely qualify as important enough for a place on those ships.



And I agree, overall, with those who say it makes no sense for the PC to take the throne. There's no true reason why we should be able to.

[menasure]

Korva wrote...
....
And I agree, overall, with those who say it makes no sense for the PC to take the throne. There's no true reason why we should be able to.

if you are not simply a powerhungry kind of evil who abuses his grey warden role and or hero status or allied armies then i'd say you might still want to rule as a 'good' character because the alternatives for the throne can be rather disappointing.
personally i'm not really doing that anymore but i'm probably commanding my armies from orzammar as living paragon after the defeat of the archdemon. those dwarves and gollems seem to be so much more useable for world conquest than humans, especially when those humans are already under the rule of a puppet king

Modifié par menasure, 15 décembre 2009 - 12:55 .

[Tirigon]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Invalidcode wrote...

They have to & will help you against the Blight, but not a civil war against Eamon.

Exactly.

The army you have gathered is only there to fight the Blight. Once the Blight is defeated, the Dwarves are headed back underground to fight in the Deep Roads, and the Dalish are returning to the forest. They are your allies, not your personal army. The same is true of the human soldiers. They serve their individual banns and Arls, and the only ones with any personal loyalty to you after everything is said in done is possibly Highever, since Fergus is named Teyrn. The PC would need more than the support of Highever however, to rule all of Ferelden.

The PC isn't going to have any support in waging a civil war for the crown following the Blight. Any attempt at seizing the crown by force would just expose the PC to the same problems Loghain faced: highly independent freeholders and banns that resented their traditional rights being trampled on, and who weren't too keen on kneeling to a tyrant. The monarchy in Ferelden is not an absolute one. It rules only with the consent of the freeholders.

They dont HAVE to help you, but ... The Dalish would use every chance to become free. If you promise them freedom and their own land, many of them would help for sure. Same goes for the magicians - at least for the libertarians and the bloodmages, which are the most powerful anyways. The dwarves aren´t sure, but they might help too, at least if you make sure you have a strong bound to their king and didnt go like "I dont care for you as long as you give me warriors". Dunno about Harrowmont, but Bhelen gives the impression that he would fight the Fereldans if you give him a good reason, such as gold or power.
And then, the  Fereldans themselfes...  I guess you could count on a lot of help by the people. After all, you saved them from the Archdemon, you saved their life and all, and you have proven yourself a powerful and (at least the way I played) kind and trustworthy leader. Compare that with Anora. She is a power-hungry woman whose father is an executed traitor, she sided with this traitor, though he had killed her own husband, King Caillan, and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Fereldans, and she betrays even you, though you rescued her from certain death.
Honestly, who would you rather want to be your King? A hero who cares for the people or a greedy **** who cares for nothing but her own power?

[Herr Uhl]

If you grant freedom to the libertarians, you'll be likely get the collective army of the chantry lands on you. Ask the elves and Qunari how that went.

[Tirigon]

Korva wrote...

And I agree, overall, with those who say it makes no sense for the PC to take the throne. There's no true reason why we should be able to.

There is one: Simply because we are strong enough to kill everyone who opposes. Looking at real life, that´s what was the reason for most kings to have their power. Actually, it´s the only justification why anyone should rule about others. Not a good one, of course, but one that is strong enough to rule, if you want to.

Herr Uhl wrote...

If you grant freedom to the
libertarians, you'll be likely get the collective army of the chantry
lands on you. Ask the elves and Qunari how that went.

1. I´d so love to kill those templars. (Killing the possessed ones in the Circle´s tower was so great [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie])

2.
In my Playthrough as mage I made Arnora grant the Circle independence
from the chantry, and she didnt have to fight the chantry afterwards.

3. Thats another reason for the elves to join me: Revenge for what the chantry did to them.

Modifié par Tirigon, 15 décembre 2009 - 01:04 .

[menasure]

Herr Uhl wrote...

If you grant freedom to the libertarians, you'll be likely get the collective army of the chantry lands on you. Ask the elves and Qunari how that went.

my werewolve private army is my own to command, i've a dragon in the mountains, an anvil at my disposal, the support of the dead legions, a noble status amongst humans, influence over several kings and with the circle of mages disbanded and a new circle being formed in orzammar one can always give it a shot because my life expectancy as a tainted soul is not great anyway ... unless some blood magic could remedy that also

Modifié par menasure, 15 décembre 2009 - 01:09 .

[Herr Uhl]

Tirigon wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

If you grant freedom to the
libertarians, you'll be likely get the collective army of the chantry
lands on you. Ask the elves and Qunari how that went.

1. I´d so love to kill those templars. (Killing the possessed ones in the Circle´s tower was so great [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie])
2.In my Playthrough as mage I made Arnora grant the Circle independence
from the chantry, and she didnt have to fight the chantry afterwards.
3. Thats another reason for the elves to join me: Revenge for what the chantry did to them.

1. The forces of Orlais, Anderfells and Antiva also, to name a few. A lot to handle for a country divided by internal strife. Think that the common people will have problems with you going against the chantry.
2. They are probably going to be more harsh with someone who forcibly gained power with the policy to free mages than with one who will only loosen the templar influence on the circle, ergo, still phylacteries and hunting apostates as far as I understood it.
3. I'll grant you that.

menasure wrote...
my werewolve private army is my own to command, i've a dragon in the mountains, an anvil at my disposal, the support of the dead legions, a noble status amongst humans, influence over several kings and with the circle of mages disbanded and a new circle being formed in orzammar one can always give it a shot because my life expectancy as a tainted soul is not great anyway ... unless some blood magic could remedy that also 

Most of the common people are terrified of magi and like the chantry. They'd probably have a problem with it too. And if you are supposed to be power-hungry, Avernus has managed to live for a loooong time, you could get some pointers from him.

[Malsumis]

There is one way to get control, make him King, complete the ritual(Which any power hungry/selfish character would do anyway) and then become Chancellor. There you have your puppet on the throne. Epilogue even states he listens to you and leaves you in charge when he goes off on adventures or whatever.



This was done with a male PC but I assume the same would happen when you don't romance him as a female PC.

[andysdead]

Dalereth wrote...

Where's that crier in Orzammar when you need him...

did anyone else draw a parallel between the 2 criers in Orzammar and Fox News / MSNBC?