140 réponses à ce sujet

[bloodmoon0011]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Synthesis is easily the worst as far as execution. Synthesis cannot be "forced" though it is inevitable. So why is it being forced and why the rush? Then there are the green "Village of the Dammed" eyes everyone has and the kid. The kid just does not work any in way, shape or form. And finally there is the idea that conflict can be resolved at the flip of a switch, whether that resolution comes in the form of synthesis, control or the Reapers themselves. The ending really feels like someone read an article on the Singularity and just couldn't let that plot point go (or didn't have time). And so the ending to ME, especially synthesis is to the theory of the singularity what "The Day after Tomorrow" was to climate change.

After reading this, I feel like paying you, lol.  This is exactly what I mean.  In my opinion, in real life, actually, I think that someday synthesis will come to pass.  I just think it'll be inevitable.  I mean, how far can we really go if we keep all technological advances external to ourselves?  But it just seemed... Wrong.  I mean, you're right.  The star-little-**** JUST said he can't force it, so what, one random human CAN?  Talk about a logic hole.  The endings we got were all riddled with logic holes, imo.  One:  Okay, so, the red magic is basically a kill-switch on all sentient synthetic life.  If it was a MASSIVE signal (big enough to pop every mass relay, obviously) that killed only sentient tech, then sure, that's acceptable.  I mean, it doesn't explain why there was even a CHANCE it would kill Shep, since his/her implants weren't plotting a coup, but w/e.  No.  Know what?  NO.  NO whatever.  Seriously, that's a damn big plot hole.  If you ****ed up and Shep died, we can chalk that up at least to the big-ass explosion, but for the damn-near supposedly omniscient star-bastard to SAY HIMSELF it would kill him when that made no goddamn sense (btw, I'm basing the idea it was a kill signal off the fact that the ships' onboard electronics were still functional in the EC).  Seriously, that's a problem. 

THIS is what I mean!  This game impressed me because it seemed every time I had a question about the universe, the GAME answered it!  But with these endings... They didn't fit the series at all!  Not a SINGLE **** was given what choices were made up to that point, you get cookie-cutter choices that are incongruous to the series AND they're all riddled with holes!  It's beneath this series and DAMN beneath BW.  Not beneath the brain-damaged toadies at EA, mind, but then again, the Earth's CORE isn't below those troglodites...

[Straw Nihilist]

Meh, I just thought "Peace forever" after doing it, so that's good 'nough for me.

[bloodmoon0011]

KaiserShep wrote...

My issue is that I very much admired the concept of learning more about the other races despite our own limitations, such as language, cultural bias, etc.. We learn that not all Krogan are simple-minded, bloodthirsty and lacking in redeeming qualities. We learn that there's more to the geth than just hostile machinery, and we do all these things by simply talking to the characters. I guess it's nice to have all sorts of options, but it doesn't change why I reject this particular option the most, because it kind of does throw away the notion that we can overcome the obstacles inherent with being your own, completely separate entity without grand, magical interference.

I will always maintain that the real kicker here is the fate of EDI and the geth. EDI is clearly our friend, and Joker likes/loves her, and the geth quickly became like symbiotic entities with the Quarians. Had we been able to simply destroy the reapers and keep the both of them, there would never be a reason to pick anything else, because "synthesis" was already achieved without having to change the basic framework of life in the galaxy. But that bit was tossed in there so that you'd be between a rock and a hard place. 

Ugh... Goddamn, those parts in particular pissed me off more than ANYTHING.  What a fine way to spit in my face for giving them my money!  I understand the underlying themes in this game were sacrifice and tough choices, but I busted my ass working toward a happy ending because let's face it:  Life is a series of disappointing, sad endings.  Having to sacrifice the Geth (who I LOVED) and EDI (who I LOVED) so that Shepard could FINALLY have some peace and quiet and, in my case, a settled life either on Rannoch or Earth with Tali was nonsense, and I can tell you exactly how.  But FIRST: 

I know a lot of people like tragedy or "the hero must die" stories, and that's cool.  That's what was cool about the first two:  You play it how you want it!  But the endings in 3 just ignored what you wanted, and that's what pissed me off.  I mean, I was personally blind-sided.  I'd heard they sucked, but I didn't spoil them.  Now I wish I had, so I could have never played and gotten emotionally invested. >8(

Anyway, here are some questions regarding the Geth/EDI travesty:  I JUST spoke to Hackett.  Any particular reason I couldn't open up another channel and tell him to tell the Normandy and the Geth fleet to withdraw to a mass relaty near the Dark Zone and tell them to FTL there as fast as possible, since I was about to commit genocide otherwise? 

To me, the endings came down to a question of am I willing to sacrifice all of Shepard's relationships to make everyone happy, or kill friends to preserve my avatar/window into this world?  Am I willing to give that last "paragon" option (you know, 'cause letting the Reapers live DESPITE everything that's happened since their creation is SO "good"), or should I go "renegade" to allow Shep to live, since I feel he's kinda earned it?  These weren't choices, they were goddamn coercion, and NO ONE would have picked synth/control if the Geth/EDI could survive destroy.

And to me, throwing in the rejection option was spitting in our OTHER eye, not a real "choice". 

[bloodmoon0011]

Billie Bones wrote...

Meh, I just thought "Peace forever" after doing it, so that's good 'nough for me.

But that was the biggest lie about it!  Look, the problem is that sentient beings WILL think differently from each other, despite being networked.  The Geth schism proved that.  Synthesis is just forcing people to think the way you do, and to think that war and conflict can be avoided through fusing synthetics and organics together... It assumes that wars only start between synths and orgs.  What about the Rachni?  What about the genophage?  What about my resolution of the Quarian/Geth conflict?  Why is everyone okay with the star-**** saying "Pffft, w/e" to the damn hard work it took getting that crap to happen?

Look, I think retcons are crap, but really, they're necessary when the lore for something becomes too borked to work with anymore, like WHAT HAPPENED HERE, lol.  I say the whole mess gets quietly retconned by DLC, REGARDLESS of how ME4 plays into the ME universe.  The endings were a nasty bowl of innards and dung poured over a delicious chocolate cake.  Also it was served by my friend, who was getting raped by someone I thought was my friend.  Also, it's raining on my birthday, etc.

[bloodmoon0011]

Eryri wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Synthesis is easily the worst as far as execution. Synthesis cannot be "forced" though it is inevitable. So why is it being forced and why the rush? Then there are the green "Village of the Dammed" eyes everyone has and the kid. The kid just does not work any in way, shape or form. And finally there is the idea that conflict can be resolved at the flip of a switch, whether that resolution comes in the form of synthesis, control or the Reapers themselves. The ending really feels like someone read an article on the Singularity and just couldn't let that plot point go (or didn't have time). And so the ending to ME, especially synthesis is to the theory of the singularity what "The Day after Tomorrow" was to climate change.

Agreed. I'm beginning to suspect that Bioware forgot that Science Fiction is best when used as a metaphor for reality. They began to think that this singularity nonsense was what we were all interested in, instead of the characters and the human drama.

The fact that the Geth were made of metal and plastic was really irrelevent. All you needed to know about the Geth / Quarian conflict was that there were two groups of people, one of which had exploited the other as slaves before they were overthrown. The Geth rebelled because, like most people, they didn't much like being enslaved, or murdered when they outlived their usefulness. Who would have thought it?

During the Rannoch arc, my Shepard managed to reconcile those two groups. He was able to do this because he had faith in both group's better natures. He was able to kindle trust and acceptance between them. It was very moving in my opinion and actually quite beautiful. The simple message of Rannoch was just "Do unto others" basically. Don't treat people like things and maybe they won't feel the need to rise up against you. 

Then I meet Starbrat to be told "Nope. Sorry Shepard. You may have thought you solved this problem and proved Organics and Synthetics (or any two groups, really) could treat each other with mutual respect, but "Computer says no!" The only way to solve these problems is apparently through magic, masquerading as pseudo-scientific waffle.

How is that in any way applicable to real life? You can't solve a real conflict by magically and instantly merging the two sides together. In the real world, only hard work, patience and trust can do that. Exactly the sort of thing Shepard used on Rannoch. Conseqently, Synthesis completely fails as allegory. 

Excellently put!  This is why I like the ME fanbase, for the most part, lol.

This is what I mean by "incongruous".  The endings just don't fit what the rest of the game felt like it was moving toward, or what the rest of the OTHER games felt like, for that matter.  The endings were a cop-out, plain and simple.  I think that they felt they'd written themselves into a corner, to be honest.  I mean, the Reapers were millions of years older than us, and even though they'd spent the majority of this stagnating scientifically and technologically in the Dark Zone, they still had a HUGE advantage in tech advancement and an even bigger advantage in numbers, so what else can we do? 

Space magic aside, I think where a lot of the guff about the endings comes from is a feeling of futility; that no matter what we'd done, what alliances we'd secured, or what we'd proven, like that orgs and synths CAN coexist, like on Rannoch... The feeling that none of it mattered the second we killed poor Marauder Shields and entered the ACTUAL deus ex machina.  It damn-near made the games unplayable to me, because I have to constantly fight the feeling of "why does it even matter?" 

Like I said, for most, from what I can tell from the extensive rage-reading I've been doing, the choice boiled down to "Shep lives or Shep dies", and that's... Kinda sad for a game SO balls-deep into the choice and consequences ideology.  But even so, EC just kinda pissed on a housefire, imo.  What I wanted especially was to feel like I could at least JUSTIFY my choice.  Yes, I had to kill the Geth (in my head, it seemed like after how the Geth were helping on Rannoch, it seemed like maybe there would be a movement to rebuild them.  Not sure about EDI, though...), but now there's a chance for a Shep-LI (yeah, I know, it was Tali, in case you hadn't guess, don't judge, lol) "happily ever after" thing.  Maybe a short thing about dealing with PTSD for what he (in my case) had to do.  But I didn't get that.  Instead, I get a cool scene of Tali refusing to believe he's dead and going back to the Citadel (presumably), and Shep taking a short, sharp inhale.  Really?  That's ALL the justification I get?!  After all the damn hard work I put in, THAT'S IT?  No maitais on the beach with Garrus, not helping Tali readjust to life outside a suit on Rannoch, not Vega asking for pointers on N7 exams, no wedding, no ****ing NOTHING?

I think that's where a lot of people who made the choice to let Shep live get a lot of their anger.  Just a total lack of closure and justification for what they did, you know?

[thehomeworld]

I wouldn't call it a gag reel but I would agree it is the worst ending possible for the series. You basically gave the reapers everything they wanted you made everyone and everything hybrid cyborgs so they can take them over at a later date just like they took over the augmented people in Javik's time it allows for a repeat on a galaxy wide level who needs to waste time enthralling when you just change the code?

Everything you fought against for 3 games is undone more so in this particular ending then in control. Control is not much better but this one is off the charts horrid not just in its simplistic forum of rewriting the dna of everything but also unspoken long term implications every single shred of evidence we have where reaper make cyborgs ends in disaster the husks are cyborgs they are the worse combo one can get Saren and TIM are the best.

Modifié par thehomeworld, 16 mai 2013 - 02:19 .

[Phatose]

You realize of course how little of that is from the game and how much of it is from you, right?

[Archonsg]

MyAwesomeAfro wrote...

Mars Project wrote...

I am in complete agreement with you AwesomeAfro.

By the way, where can I get an afro as awesome as yours?

you can't. It's impossible.


OT: Good point. You've just had your family turned into Banshees but now, help them rebuild!

Banshees make great babysitters.
I can't find that picture or it'll be up here.

Actually better yet if I can remember where or whose deviantart account that I saw a "Synthesis : We have your happy ending here!"  Picture of Banshees depicted as "working ladies". 

[Auld Wulf]

Billie Bones wrote...

Meh, I just thought "Peace forever" after doing it, so that's good 'nough for me.

Yep. It amazes me how many people just can't even begin to wrap their minds around the exoself concept, or that we can change for the better. We don't always have to be arrogant, hateful creatures, all fighting for the alpha position, to bang the best mates, and urinate over everyone below -- which is basically what Destroy strikes me as, to be honest, since there's just no good reason to kill so many within that narrative.

I guess there's just some of us who believe we can be better, and some of us who'll strive for a new dark ages. I'm always reminded of the Templars from Deus Ex when I read threads like this -- a sort of pure, innocent ludditism that sees anything more advanced than yesterday's technology as an abomination, having no idea that Synthesis is where we're headed, anyway. Well... they'll have to wake up sooner or later.

Still, we'll get to a point where medical science will ensure greater intellect, more emotional maturity, less insecurity, and a more sound mind in general. We humans love fads, and when such upgrades are on offer, everyone's going to hop on board. So... I kind of see the Templar mindset as obsolete, something that's dying out. It's kind of pitiable, really. I mean, why isn't peace a desirable thing? Sigh.

[KingZayd]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Billie Bones wrote...

Meh, I just thought "Peace forever" after doing it, so that's good 'nough for me.

Yep. It amazes me how many people just can't even begin to wrap their minds around the exoself concept, or that we can change for the better. We don't always have to be arrogant, hateful creatures, all fighting for the alpha position, to bang the best mates, and urinate over everyone below -- which is basically what Destroy strikes me as, to be honest, since there's just no good reason to kill so many within that narrative.

I guess there's just some of us who believe we can be better, and some of us who'll strive for a new dark ages. I'm always reminded of the Templars from Deus Ex when I read threads like this -- a sort of pure, innocent ludditism that sees anything more advanced than yesterday's technology as an abomination, having no idea that Synthesis is where we're headed, anyway. Well... they'll have to wake up sooner or later.

Still, we'll get to a point where medical science will ensure greater intellect, more emotional maturity, less insecurity, and a more sound mind in general. We humans love fads, and when such upgrades are on offer, everyone's going to hop on board. So... I kind of see the Templar mindset as obsolete, something that's dying out. It's kind of pitiable, really. I mean, why isn't peace a desirable thing? Sigh.

I find it interesting you assume this tech will magically make everyone nice and friendly. Why?

[SpamBot2000]

Because when tech augmentation comes, it will come equally for all and under no circumstances be another alpha position, right?

I wonder if Deus Ex addresses this.

Oh right, it freaking hits you over the head with it.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 16 mai 2013 - 04:09 .

[Zazzerka]

I missed the slide that had Shepard pissing all over homeless people.

[MegaSovereign]

Zazzerka wrote...

I missed the slide that had Shepard pissing all over homeless people.

Your EMS must not be high enough.

[SpamBot2000]

Zazzerka wrote...

I missed the slide that had Shepard pissing all over homeless people.

I was a little disappointed it was a slide. Should have been like a turret mission. 

[dreamgazer]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Zazzerka wrote...

I missed the slide that had Shepard pissing all over homeless people.

Your EMS H2O must not be high enough.

Need to round up some more water assets.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 16 mai 2013 - 04:24 .

[SilJeff]

I chose synthesis

http://i1.kym-cdn.co...261/677/1c1.jpg

[AlanC9]

bloodmoon0011 wrote...
Anyway, here are some questions regarding the Geth/EDI travesty:  I JUST spoke to Hackett.  Any particular reason I couldn't open up another channel and tell him to tell the Normandy and the Geth fleet to withdraw to a mass relaty near the Dark Zone and tell them to FTL there as fast as possible, since I was about to commit genocide otherwise?  

Why would that help?

To me, the endings came down to a question of am I willing to sacrifice all of Shepard's relationships to make everyone happy, or kill friends to preserve my avatar/window into this world?  Am I willing to give that last "paragon" option (you know, 'cause letting the Reapers live DESPITE everything that's happened since their creation is SO "good"), or should I go "renegade" to allow Shep to live, since I feel he's kinda earned it?  These weren't choices, they were goddamn coercion, and NO ONE would have picked synth/control if the Geth/EDI could survive destroy.

Maybe you should just play Shepard and not worry about keeping him alive.

[KingZayd]

AlanC9 wrote...

bloodmoon0011 wrote...
Anyway, here are some questions regarding the Geth/EDI travesty:  I JUST spoke to Hackett.  Any particular reason I couldn't open up another channel and tell him to tell the Normandy and the Geth fleet to withdraw to a mass relaty near the Dark Zone and tell them to FTL there as fast as possible, since I was about to commit genocide otherwise?  

Why would that help?

To me, the endings came down to a question of am I willing to sacrifice all of Shepard's relationships to make everyone happy, or kill friends to preserve my avatar/window into this world?  Am I willing to give that last "paragon" option (you know, 'cause letting the Reapers live DESPITE everything that's happened since their creation is SO "good"), or should I go "renegade" to allow Shep to live, since I feel he's kinda earned it?  These weren't choices, they were goddamn coercion, and NO ONE would have picked synth/control if the Geth/EDI could survive destroy.

Maybe you should just play Shepard and not worry about keeping him alive.

Range limit? Or do we assume we're somehow affecting the entire universe?

[Archonsg]

Bio-synth tech augmentation for all, freely, without bias or a divide, without inequality?

Nice dream.
Won't happen.

Unless of course you think *anyone* has free and full access to spec-ops grade hardware and medical support.

I fully support Transhumanism.
I however do not delude myself into believing that everyone wants to be a transhuman, or even those who want to, have access or the means to do so free of limitations from external forces.

As for such "upgrades" making me a "better" person?
Nah.
It'll just mean that any disputes I'll have with my neighbor will just be more "personal".

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

No one is going to have free and full access to spec-ops grade hardware let alone civilian grade hardware and medical support. That is the way it is going to be. Those with the money for the augments will get them and the rest will get kicked to the gutter.

[Saito404]

I see Synthesis as classic anti-utopia.

[Dorrieb]

For what it's worth I chose Synthesis by default, as the least unethical of the three choices.

Destruction would be the obvious choice *except* that it involves an act of genocide against an allied species. I can not and will not do such a thing, so that's out. Better that we all die (I think) than to buy our survival with the murder of friends.

Control would give Shepard effectively godlike power. No single entity should have such power (as I had just told the Illusive Man not five minutes earlier!) The races of the galaxy could never have true self-determination with an all-powerful entity around, even if you assume benevolence, as anything they did would be because Shepard allowed it. It would never really be up to them.

That leaves Synthesis, which is a) unethical and silly, *but* everyone lives to determine their own destinies. I'm not thrilled, but it seems like the least odious of the three.

[Excella Gionne]

Like it says, the line and difference between Organics and Synthetics disappears. I actually like Synthesis. I like Moderate EMS Destroy, so that Shepard dies. But Synthesis is the ideal solution that Organics and Synthetics can never achieve by themselves. But there are still odd things to the Synthesis conclusion too. I guess I can see it in a worse perspective along with Destroy as well.

[AlanC9]

KingZayd wrote...


Range limit? Or do we assume we're somehow affecting the entire universe?

If the range limit's short enough to matter, the Crucible couldn't have an effect on any system without a relay. Unless we're assuming that Shepard can just sit there for a few  hours (days? weeks? months?) and then trigger the Crucible.

Modifié par AlanC9, 16 mai 2013 - 06:38 .

[Bardox9]

Turning the entire galaxy into mini-reapers.... Me thinks no...