252 réponses à ce sujet

[ryoldschool]

D.Shepard wrote...

I have a suggestion for who didn't like the nerf:
 
Since it seems the parameter to determine if a class is OP or not is the number of players who use it on Gold (just look at the previous week topics on that), stop playing Infiltrators. The number of Infiltrators will be drastically reduced, thus the class will be considered undepowered.

If it's all about numbers.....

Its funny, but doesn't this guy have a point?   If the number of infiltrators does not drop below 33% on gold then this nerf will have failed?   Right now its probably the opposite to their intended effect - people are playing gold with their infiltrators to see how viable they still are.   We won't know for a few weeks if they damaged it enough.

Personally, I tested the GI/Claymore on gold last night and its ok.  However I am sure that the FQI won't be played by me again.  Also I'm not sure how the sniper infiltrators will fare with this nerf.   Anybody who is passing up the damage boost at rank 4 cloak - you gotta be kidding - 40%.

Also, neteng101 posted a thread comparing the GI/claymore to the Human Soldier Claymore about two weeks ago.   It was pretty close before this nerf, now the "balance" has shifted to the human it would seem.

As a last note, this nerf particularly sucks in that I just got the Javelin at X and my BW at VIII - would have liked to play with these weapons before my class got nerfed.

[Vault Boy X360]

The only problem I find with the nerf is the decrease in max duration. I think max duration for cloak should be more than long enough to cap an objective, but 11 seconds is cutting it close. They should have buffed either the 2nd tier duration for a 60% bonus at least or increased the 50% bonus on the 4th tier to 200%.

However, I think it is far less likely to see infiltrators being able to cap objectives; yet, still seeing infiltrators dealing tons of damage all the time. I hope this doesn't make gold to much more difficult.

[UKStory135]

Bergioynn wrote...

Yep. It's really infuriating that bunch of whiners mangaed to ruin the fun for so many people. All that was needed was either a) nerf Krysae, make it utra-rare or c) make it an assault rifle. No-one cried about TC before Krysae. After that the nerfers began their dirty work.

Now they've nerfed all of the Sniper Rifles which were underpowered on Gold to begin with.  I don't understand the idea that nerfing things makes better team players. It's an incorrect and stupid idea.  No one is going to take the duration bonus, because most of the enemies can still see you anyway.  So the real OP class, the Shotgun Infiltrator is changed very little, while they made the Sniper Infiltrator even less viable.

If they would have given all SR a damage boost across the board, I honestly would be fine with the changes.

[Tortugueta]

Olaf_de_IJsbeer wrote...

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

landylan wrote...

yajuu, they didnt destroy it. 4 seconds is a very long time to aim

But NOT time to revive someone, cap an objective, escape from enemies or ANYTHING else.
they made it so TC is only useful for cloak -> shoot. players.

It still is useful for reviving players or doing objectives if you pick duration over damage.

No longer shall Infiltrators be the master race.

Meh, the performance of the infiltrator class as a medic has been greatly exaggerated anyway. Cloaking to revive a teammate next to four pyros and immediately hitting the road leaving the teammate to fall again within 1 nanosecond is not being a good medic. If the fallen is not in such dire straits, then any class can do the revive.

Now, take the Krogan Vanguard specced for full tankiness. That is a medic. Charge, revive, beat the crap out of the enemies standing on the face of your buddy until he can get up safely on his feet, move on.

Same goes for doing objectives. The supposed teamplay abilities of the infiltrator class are greatly overrated.

Krogambulance FTW!

[Bergioynn]

xtorma wrote...

Bergioynn wrote...

Yep. It's really infuriating that bunch of whiners mangaed to ruin the fun for so many people. All that was needed was either a) nerf Krysae, make it utra-rare or c) make it an assault rifle. No-one cried about TC before Krysae. After that the nerfers began their dirty work.

I have been a staunch advocate against nerfing and those who propose it. That being said, suggesting that the majority of people who called for nerfs did so to ruin other people's fun is ludicris. Most of them are sincere in thier desire to make the game better. I think they are wrong, but thier motives are in the right place.

Oh, I'm certain there is well meaning idiots mixed in the nerfer crowd, but 80-90 % of the people and threads I saw during the debate pretty much used the "he scores more than me, nerf him!" argument. The rest were about equally divided between people using maths to prove their POV and the people who actually suggested alternate options.

Modifié par Bergioynn, 27 juin 2012 - 12:52 .

[Baerdface]

Geth infiltrator with plasma shotty still dominates, only noticed the nerf when had to do hacking objectives, altho it doesn't seem like a big deal.

Wipe your tears and adapt.

[DnVill]

Despite of the nerfs. I think Infiltrators will still spec for dmg. This nerf will just give them a reason to play the lone wolf even more.

Just my opinion though. I just hope less people would use them so I can try Infiltrator again.

[PluralAces]

Who cares? Once you fire a shot the TC is gone anyway, isnt that all you snipers do?? Fire one shot and then wait for cloak to recharge?

[Bergioynn]

PluralAces wrote...

Who cares? Once you fire a shot the TC is gone anyway, isnt that all you snipers do?? Fire one shot and then wait for cloak to recharge?

No, that's what the selfish infils did. And their numbers are about to multiply now that the supporting infils got axed even worse.

[Influ]

The one thing I don't like about the nerf is that sniper Infiltrators were hit the hardest. Especially considering that the rank 6 sniper damage evo is apparently multiplicative. Shotgun Infiltrators were already superior in damage and utility.

The duration tweaks however are fairly nice. Before the tweaks, there was little to no point in going with the duration on rank 4. It was basically worthless. The cloak already lasted a bit over 10 seconds, which was enough to do the disable device objective cloaked, more than enough time to run to safety or revive someone from a tricky situation. Now that evo is actually useful, if you want to choose utility over damage.

Modifié par Influ, 27 juin 2012 - 01:28 .

[neteng101]

ryoldschool wrote...

Also, neteng101 posted a thread comparing the GI/claymore to the Human Soldier Claymore about two weeks ago.   It was pretty close before this nerf, now the "balance" has shifted to the human it would seem.

Depending on how people spec the human soldier and infiltrators, this is indeed very true.  Change the weapons a bit (Claymore is limited somewhat by the 1-shot), and the Human Soldier will easily be doing more constant damage while the Infiltrators are waiting on their cooldowns.

I can see why snipers feel more snubbed, though I think the duration change is probably the worse aspect.  The "all or nothing" sort of choice between utility and damage.  Something like 6 seconds would leave for better playability options (while still forcing a choice of sorts between damage/utility).

I think Bioware failed badly because they went with a misguided player's suggested value vs. really spending more time play testing this and coming up with their own set of balance changes.  And those that opted for duration in the past don't get more utility either.  Its this aspect of the balance change that doesn't bode well for the future...  letting individual players call out balance changes is a very dangerous thing.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

LordSerion wrote...

^ Get better? OK. Meanwhile, you bleed out 'cos we aint gonna rez with this stupidly limited duration.

Condor/Cerberus/Gold. I went for damage over duration so cloak is limited to 5,20 sec. Still scored 180k with 5+ revives medal. And did the 1/2/3/4 objectives. Nope, the infiltrator is still  a great class. 

That said, if some guy just decided to rambo on the other end of the map, I won't bother to rez him. Oh wait, I didn't before either. 

[D.Shepard]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

LordSerion wrote...

^ Get better? OK. Meanwhile, you bleed out 'cos we aint gonna rez with this stupidly limited duration.

Condor/Cerberus/Gold. I went for damage over duration so cloak is limited to 5,20 sec. Still scored 180k with 5+ revives medal. And did the 1/2/3/4 objectives. Nope, the infiltrator is still  a great class. 

That said, if some guy just decided to rambo on the other end of the map, I won't bother to rez him. Oh wait, I didn't before either. 

That may proves what I always said: it's all about the player. Obviously most didn't agree and thus the nerf came

[Mike 9987]

 ITT

[UKStory135]

Baerdface wrote..

Geth infiltrator with plasma shotty still dominates, only noticed the nerf when had to do hacking objectives, altho it doesn't seem like a big deal.

Wipe your tears and adapt.

The only thing OP about the Infiltrator barely even get touched while they gutted everything else.  I didn't disagree with the need to balance the class, but this didn't balance it all.   So I'm going to keep my sniper rifles in the dustbin and point hoard with my GPS or Claymore. 

[rmccowen]

ryoldschool wrote...

Also, neteng101 posted a thread comparing the GI/claymore to the Human Soldier Claymore about two weeks ago.   It was pretty close before this nerf, now the "balance" has shifted to the human it would seem.

It really wasn't. I avoided commenting on the thread at the time because it just irritated me, but now that you bring it up: the approximate equivalence was the result of cherry-picked builds and a couple of math errors. GI is still way ahead, and while it's closer after the TC apocalypse (aCloakalypse? Cloakageddon?), IMO the GI still pulls ahead because it can still turn invisible and see through walls.

neteng101 wrote...

Depending on how people spec the human soldier and infiltrators, this is indeed very true.  Change the weapons a bit (Claymore is limited somewhat by the 1-shot), and the Human Soldier will easily be doing more constant damage while the Infiltrators are waiting on their cooldowns.

Yes. The Human Soldier does more consistent damage, and compensates with a higher risk. The shotgun GI now functions like a skirmisher, using Cloak for approach and damage and then (hopefully) using its excellent mobility to extract to cover in the three seconds it takes Cloak to cool down.

I can see why snipers feel more snubbed, though I think the duration change is probably the worse aspect.  The "all or nothing" sort of choice between utility and damage.  Something like 6 seconds would leave for better playability options (while still forcing a choice of sorts between damage/utility).

Conveniently, a GI without the Duration evolution can cloak for 5.2 seconds, which actually is a lot like 6 seconds.

I think Bioware failed badly because they went with a misguided player's suggested value vs. really spending more time play testing this and coming up with their own set of balance changes.

What's your evidence that they didn't do any playtesting?

And those that opted for duration in the past don't get more utility either.

You know, I've never met anyone IRL or in play that opted for duration. I suspect, however, that going from 13.6 seconds to 11.2 seconds isn't leaving them particularly cheesed off.

Modifié par rmccowen, 27 juin 2012 - 01:54 .

[Riscoliscious]

Can we just officially rename the Infiltrator class to Sniper and get it over with?

[neteng101]

rmccowen wrote...

Conveniently, a GI without the Duration evolution can cloak for 5.2 seconds, which actually is a lot like 6 seconds.

You know what I really meant, a nerf for 6 seconds on base would leave damage infiltrators with 7.8 seconds, which isn't exactly an inordinate amount of time depending on the map.

What's your evidence that they didn't do any playtesting?

Insufficient playtesting at the very least - it was a very short window between the suggested values being presented and the balance changes being made.  They took a whole lot more time it seems with the QFE turret buffs than they did with this rather significant change.  Plus looking at those values, they followed it verbatim pretty much.

Plus a lot of the other changes these week are exactly as suggested by said misguided player.  Its rather apparent this is not BW's own work...  they took someone's figures and just used them really.  Even if they tested them a bit, it wasn't derived from their own...  I question the objectivity of using any player provided values outright.  Its a very dangerous precedent indeed.

And those that opted for duration in the past don't get more utility either.

You know, I've never met anyone IRL or in play that opted for duration. I suspect, however, that going from 13.6 seconds to 11.2 seconds isn't leaving them particularly cheesed off.

Seen a couple of people since the change complain about that here on the forums.  Some people do pick duration.

[rmccowen]

neteng101 wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

Conveniently, a GI without the Duration evolution can cloak for 5.2 seconds, which actually is a lot like 6 seconds.

You know what I really meant, a nerf for 6 seconds on base would leave damage infiltrators with 7.8 seconds, which isn't exactly an inordinate amount of time depending on the map.

Actually, I didn't know what you meant.

It's not unreasonable for the base duration to be 6 and the rank 4 evolution to be +100%--conveniently, that would leave Duration infiltrators almost exactly where they were before at 13.8s, and Damage Infiltrators at 7.8s. If I were to speculate on the motivation for the current 4/+150% arrangement, it would be to create exactly the stark distinction you've noted: TC with the Duration evolution is more than twice as long as with Damage. The two options are more separate than they would have been with a lesser change.

I note, however, that I played my FQI and GI last night, without respec (so Damage for the shotgun GI and Damage/Recharge/Sniper for the FQI), and didn't have a problem with either one. So, at least to me, the change doesn't seem that outlandish.

Insufficient playtesting at the very least - it was a very short window between the suggested values being presented and the balance changes being made.  They took a whole lot more time it seems with the QFE turret buffs than they did with this rather significant change.  Plus looking at those values, they followed it verbatim pretty much.

They really didn't. It's actually a larger nerf to damage than was suggested by GodlessPaladin, and they didn't adopt the change to base cooldown. The idea they took away--copied, if you like--was to create a clearer choice between utility and damage by squishing the base duration and inflating the Duration evolution at Rank 4.

Plus a lot of the other changes these week are exactly as suggested by said misguided player.  Its rather apparent this is not BW's own work...  they took someone's figures and just used them really.  Even if they tested them a bit, it wasn't derived from their own...  I question the objectivity of using any player provided values outright.  Its a very dangerous precedent indeed.

Do you mean to argue that BioWare should ignore good ideas about gameplay, because they come from the forum?

Seen a couple of people since the change complain about that here on the forums.  Some people do pick duration.

I've heard a handful of people on the forum complain about it, too, but I don't understand. If you picked Duration before--which, again, is rare--you lost less than 18% of your duration. You're still invisible for longer than it takes to cap an objective.

[DragonRageGT]

Nerf all you want. Infiltrators still rule the good aim department! Except those with lame Krisae which caused the nerf in the first play. They are lousy shots and they will always be.

This is from 5 minutes ago in a UUG public match with a great team! I doubt any of them would have complained about TC as it was. They certainly didn't mind having a good infiltrator in their team. And by good I mean, totally commited to the team, not to the score whatsoever. It happens naturally. Because nothing can headshot lots of phantoms like a good aim Infiltrator with a Valiant! (and I only play FQI =)

Modifié par DragonRageGT, 27 juin 2012 - 02:41 .

[PluralAces]

Bergioynn wrote...

PluralAces wrote...

Who cares? Once you fire a shot the TC is gone anyway, isnt that all you snipers do?? Fire one shot and then wait for cloak to recharge?

No, that's what the selfish infils did. And their numbers are about to multiply now that the supporting infils got axed even worse.

as long as TC still lasts for more than 10 seconds when maxed out, thats all the support anyonei needs...

[Arppis]

BXpress2 wrote...

learn 2 adapt.

also,if Infiltrator was the only thing that won Golds for you then you are not a real Gold player to begin with.in that case learn 2 play.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Olaf_de_IJsbeer wrote...

I guess you didn't notice that the duration bonus from rank 1 has been increased from 50% to 150%. If you take that option, the duration decrease isn't that dramatic.

Just 2 seconds less <_<
Shame melee infil didn't get buffed

Modifié par Biotic_Warlock, 27 juin 2012 - 03:53 .

[DragonRageGT]

I'm surprised that Hide in Plain Sight didn't get lots of "nerf this talent" threads in gud ol' NWN forums, but then, these nerfers probably weren't old enough to play games in the computer anyway.

Next they will demand Valiant to be nerfed because nothing can beat an Infiltrator, nerfed or not, with a Valiant, even at level 1 weapon.

[AmicusHumaniGeneris]

DragonRageGT wrote...

I'm surprised that Hide in Plain Sight didn't get lots of "nerf this talent" threads in gud ol' NWN forums, but then, these nerfers probably weren't old enough to play games in the computer anyway.

NWN  
But knowing of NWN, HIPS - with the flat footed mega-bonus for Rogues-, implicating familiarity with DnD... Aren't you a little bit too old to play games?