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I just saw synthisis, Its horrifying


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#226
macroberts

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I haven't read through all the pages, and perhaps this has already been covered, but here are my two cents. I posted this elsewhere, it's buried, but I'll put it here. =)

I picked synthesis.

Why? Well. It made sense. 

Throughout all three games I had wondered why on earth the Reapers do what they do. Why harvest civilization? Why melt people? For what purpose were they made or came into being? Sovereign and Harbinger always hinted at some greater purpose, and I wanted to know what it was. And then throughout the last game I begin to see the idea of organics vs synthetics solidify. The idea was more or less always there, what with geth vs. quarians, with rogue AI on Luna, with EDI and Legion in ME2, but it was in ME3 where these ideas began to knock louder at the back of my head. The problem which the Starchild presents makes sense: to allow synthetics to develop, either through organics working on them or through their own independent ways, would ultimately result in a conflict where organics will lose. This isn't a new idea. The Morning War between geth and quarians is an example of this. So is the Terminator movies. And the Reapers solution and mass relays, by forcing organics down a particular tech path, more or less maintains a balance (albeit a balance which is rather cruel every 50,000 years or so).

But the line that really got me was when the Starchild said something along the lines of "Organics seek perfection through technology, synthetic seek perfection through understanding." And to me, that is just so true of the universe the game is in (and I dare say in real life too). Every organic looks for ways to better their lives through tech (just see how pervasive tech is, it's pretty much the reason for technology). Almost everyone has tech to augment their daily lives. Shepard himself is alive only because of technology. And it is in the nature of organics to seek further developments and improvements to quality of life through technology. This is practically fact, even in reality, otherwise I wouldn't be typing this out now. And practically every major synthetic (ie EDI and Legion) tries to understand what it is to be alive. Legion spends every conversation trying to understand organics, and understand what makes himself different from them (who can forget the line "Does this unit have a soul?"). EDI's questions throughout the game and the final.conversation in London is another example. By and large, synthetics want to be alive. Hence, if given the chance to allow both to attain these dreams of perfection, so to speak, then why wouldn't I take that opportunity? And EDI's narration at the end of synthesis, her descriptions of pursuing a more perfect union, so to speak, merely confirms I made the right choice for me.

I want to try tackle the main objection of the synthesis ending, that it forces the change onto everyone. To me, I don't think the magnitude of the change has much to do with whether or not synthesis is a good or bad ending. In making the decision, all that I considered was whether or not it is a good solution to the recognised problem: that is, the organic/synthetic dichotomy. Is synthesis the best solution to this problem? And, given the above, I feel that it is. 

Furthermore, Shepard has had to make similar decisions with these kinds of impact, albeit perhaps on a smaller scale. For example, wiping the heretic geth, killing the last Rachni queen, and delivering the genophage cure. Take the Rachni, for example. You can either kill the Queen, and perhaps sparing the galaxy from a massive future problem, or let it go, and potentially risk another Rachni War and the security of the galaxy. This goes for the genophage cure for the Krogan too. It is up to your Shepard to decide whether or not the Krogan get a chance to be saved from extinction. The decisions impact in a similar way (removing the right to self-determination, to reproduce, and, well, to live), except on a smaller numerical scale. If you object to Shepard being given the right to determine the form of existence for everyone (i.e. choosing synthesis), then why has the same right to make a decision which has a wide-ranging impact on a lot of people been exercised by him over and over again throughout the games? Apart from scale, there is no real difference between the substance of these decisions. The Shepard I played has essentially become "The Man" of the galaxy. He is the "Problem Solver in Chief". Time and time again he made tough decisions, to the point where he's had a say in every single major interracial conflict and issue in the galaxy. In fact, I'd argue that in making all these decisions, he's already impacted on everyone in the galaxy anyway. To challenge whether or not Shepard has the right to make this decision, to ask what gives him the right to make the change for everyone through synthesis, would be to effectively challenge the game because the same question could be asked of every single decision he has had to make in the last few years. 

Perhaps that argument doesn't come off as too convincing, and I know that many of you would still baulk at the idea of changing everyone. I recognise that it is a true difficulty in this decision. But fo me, it is one which can be argued and rationalized. 

Finally, I want to deal with another objection, one which I find fairly persuasive. Yes, I do hate the green. =)

This is all just my personal opinion, and you are welcome to have your own, as I have my own. I see the appeal in all three endings (I honestly didn't like rejection..... it is just so..... I dunno how to say it..... stubborn?). In fact, I think it is a testament to how well the EC is that for me, all three options presents viable outcomes, being so well executed. Control and Destroy are perfectly valid choices and consistent with the games before it. I watched all three on the one playthrough that I had (I watched reject too, but didn't like that at all), and I honestly couldn't decide which one was the best. Ultimately to me, the synthesis choice represents the ultimate choice and decision for my "Problem Solver in Chief" to take, the man who has had to make the hard calls and decisions at every step of the way. And as the synthesis world just sat very well with my ideals, for me, it was the best option. 

And call me naive, but please don't flame or abuse. Please do have a read. =]

(edit: formatting)

Modifié par macroberts, 28 juin 2012 - 05:00 .


#227
Reptilian Rob

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And then Shepard said "Everyone needs to be Reapers."

And then everyone was a Reaper.

#228
Fidget6

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Aye, creepy as hell. Talk about a dystopia. It really made me uncomfortable. 

#229
F00lishG

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I lost my **** at synthesis. Wrex's Krogan baby scared the hell out of me.

#230
SerraAdvocate

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macroberts wrote...

I want to try tackle the main objection of the synthesis ending, that it forces the change onto everyone. To me, I don't think the magnitude of the change has much to do with whether or not synthesis is a good or bad ending. In making the decision, all that I considered was whether or not it is a good solution to the recognised problem: that is, the organic/synthetic dichotomy. Is synthesis the best solution to this problem? And, given the above, I feel that it is. 


Here's the issue with Synthesis: that organic/synthetic dichotomy is not a convincing problem, certainly not on the scale the Catalyst says it is.

All the moral issues with the actual solution itself aside - and they're huge, gigantic, monstrous problems (what you do to everyone is morally repugnant, and thinking otherwise is, frankly, self-delusional) - there's no proof anywhere in Shepard's possession that organics and synthetics cannot coexist, nor would it be possible to prove that they cannot.

Modifié par Helm505, 28 juin 2012 - 05:06 .


#231
Kileyan

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macroberts wrote...

I haven't read through all the pages, and perhaps this has already been covered, but here are my two cents. I posted this elsewhere, it's buried, but I'll put it here. =)

I picked synthesis.

Why? Well. It made sense. 



I understand what you mean, EDI and Legion wanting to know what is was like to be organic and have human/organic like emotions, I liked those conversations.

However, don't you think it would be wrong, if for example you had a little gadget you could point at EDI or Legion and *poof*, without so much as asking, you forever turn them into humans as a way of letting them know what it is like. That would be a horrific thing to do wouldn't it?

So lets say your little gadget would only turn them into half humans, that would only be half as horrific I guess?

No one has the right to change someones basic body and mind structure without their consent, let alone changing the entire galaxy.

#232
Guest_ShadowJ20_*

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Helm505 wrote...

Here's the issue with Synthesis: that organic/synthetic dichotomy is not a convincing problem, certainly not on the scale the Catalyst says it is.



It is a major problem. The catalyst isn't lying.

https://twitter.com/...107278174339073

#233
SerraAdvocate

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ShadowJ20 wrote...

Helm505 wrote...

Here's the issue with Synthesis: that organic/synthetic dichotomy is not a convincing problem, certainly not on the scale the Catalyst says it is.



It is a major problem. The catalyst isn't lying.

https://twitter.com/...107278174339073


Picking Synthesis stops synthetics from wiping out organics. Okay. There's no proof that it's the only way to stop that from happening.

The Catalyst was programmed to believe this was a problem. It's entire world view is shaped on the assumption that synthetics will wipe out organics if not somehow checked. It's not lying. It's just got a flawed understanding of the universe. My Shepard - and I as a character - have absolutely no reason that all synthetics will wipe out organics, with or without synthesis. The only thing I know is that synethsis ensures that it won't ever happen, at the cost of reprogramming all life in the galaxy and taking away the option for the people of the galaxy to choose their own future.

•Curing the genophage means the Krogran can choose what their future will be, for good or ill. Shepard is not choosing it for them.
•Making peace between the Geth and the Quarians means those races can choose what their future will be, for good or ill. Shepard is not choosing it for them.
•Saving the Rachni Queen means that she can choose what her future will be, for good or ill. Shepard is not choosing it for her.
•Destroying the Reapers means that the galaxy can choose what its future will be, for good or ill. In control and synthesis, Shepard is choosing what that future will be.

Modifié par Helm505, 28 juin 2012 - 05:25 .


#234
Fiery Phoenix

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Agreed. Absolutely disturbing stuff. I could never in good conscience choose it for any of my Sheps.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 28 juin 2012 - 05:13 .


#235
macroberts

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@Helm505

I do feel the logic behind the conclusion that there would be a conflict is sound. To further develop technology, to further improve one's life, is natural for almost every self-aware species. It stands to reason that technology and synthetics would reach a stage where they improve themselves at a rate which outstrips the organic's ability to improve himself, particularly if the way to improve himself is technology. Once we have reached that stage, organics would probably feel threatened by synthetics, and their reliance on technology would amplify this, and synthetics would feel no responsibility to continue serving organics. As the Starchild said, "Organics seek perfection through technology, synthetic seek perfection through understanding." And this pursuit for this perfection makes sense. A conflict, then, would be a possibility, as the Morning War demonstrated (and it takes a massive existential challenge in the form of the Reapers to truly unite the geth and quarians). It seemed persuasive enough for me.

@Kileyan
Well, perhaps you are right in that no one has that right. But the fact is, Shepard has had to make similar decisions throughout the game. The player has had to make decisions on the Rachni, the geth (twice), and the Krogan (one forced on Virmire, one on Tuchanka). As I argued, would he have the right to make those decisions? And if one says, "Well, he needed to make those", I'd argue that he too, needs to make one now. Is synthesis a good solution, considering the other two (plus one with reject), to the problem that organics would be wiped by synthetics eventually? Of course, you can challenge whether or not this problem exists at all, as Helm505 has, in which case I'd respectfully ask you to read my arguments there. =)

I wanted to get this opinion out because so many people object to the synthesis, and to be honest, I don't feel the same. I feel BioWare has done a good job (by and large), and I do feel the synthesis ending did not deserve all this disdain. I wanted to get the other side of the story out there. Thank you for remaining respectful and civil throughout the discussion. =)

I'm out to lunch. =D

#236
Raptor2k1

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I think the green glow is just to let you know that something's changed. Realistically, I'd imagine that it'd be incredibly subtle nano-level technology, but since this is a visual medium, making them look exactly the same and just saying that they were now partially synthetic/augmented wouldn't be quite as powerful.

Shepard himself is half machine as it is--that's (apparently) why the entire thing would work in the first place. It's not like he's robbing them of their humanity, unless you want to claim that Shepard himself wasn't human after ME1. They don't act any different in any of the post-action cut-scenes despite their mechanical sheen (well, aside from the fact that joker no longer has a limp... go go robot legs). They're human 2.0, exactly the same, but with vastly improved mechanical traits and communication.

The circuit-board thing is kinda over-the-top, but it had to be to make the ending feel any different from the other ones. Watch the scenes--they rebuild, life goes on as it did. But now physical deficencies are a thing of the past as communicaiton and physicla traits have been nearly perfected. And given the alternatives presented to you, forcing improved physical tools and attributes on the world pales in comparison to genocide or mind-controlling entire civilizations. The thing that the EC ending explains way, way better than the old ones did is the fact that the Reapers themselves are effectively victims of the star child AI's weird peace scheme and slaves to its commands. In the control ending, trillions of aggregate lives are effectively enslaved to Shepard's (benevolent) will. Destroy murders an entire race that had just started to explore sentient and the concept of individuality. Giving everyone better physical traits doesn't even come close to being as tough a choice as those.

I really liked the synthesis ending--it is the only ending in the entire game that lets you truly save everyone. Humanuty, the Turians, Krogans, Asari, Geth, and even the Reapers themselves (being entire societies reaped for millenia past). Everyone is saved but yourself. I'm not really seeing the dystopic vibe in it; everything in the cinematic points to a utopia, not a dystopia.

I think the reapers may be misinterpreted in the EC synthesis ending too. They are no longe reapers. Without the creepy rogue AI star child's HAL-like mission to save the galaxy by purging, they are effetively arks for entire ancient civilizations. Only loose plot thread I'm left wondering about is what happened to the AI after synthesis occurs anyways? Did the AI gain understanding of organics that it lacked? Did it's mission complete and it terminated itself? Explosion take it out? Kinda confused too, and I think it may have been a little deceptive. It mentions that it was the creator of the reapers, in essence, but also alluded to itself as being the manifestation of all the reapers will--I feel like that can't be THAT accurate, seeing as the AI itself mentions that the first reaper was flat out unwilling... but anyways, I'm digressing. Point being that it seemed like a lot of what the reapers did was likely caused by the AI controlling or influencing them to do so. Possibly via consensus with instant-robot comm stuff but again, I digress...

The only thing I take issue about with it is the fact that it's really, really weird that the only way to synthesize a hybrid DNA strand is to throw your entire body into a giant energy reactor. Couldn't we just like... use a blood sample or a skin graft or something?

Modifié par Raptor2k1, 28 juin 2012 - 05:50 .


#237
Rustedness

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ShadowJ20 wrote...

Helm505 wrote...

Here's the issue with Synthesis: that organic/synthetic dichotomy is not a convincing problem, certainly not on the scale the Catalyst says it is.



It is a major problem. The catalyst isn't lying.

https://twitter.com/...107278174339073


...I hate twitter sometimes.

#238
Halo Quea

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Balek-Vriege wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

Synthesis will ALWAYS be the immoral choice.

What the Catalyst is literally saying to Shepard is that once everyone is the same, we'll finally have peace. That diversity of life, even diversity of intelligence or understanding is intolerable. That we must all share the same dna, the same ideals, perhaps even the same thought process to be able to understand and respect each other.

What Shepard fails (yet again) to explain to the Catalyst is that his solution robs the ENTIRE galaxy of what it does naturally. And this is the OTHER reason why Synthesis is a flawed solution. The galaxy WILL NOT stop creating new life forms, because the galaxy doesn't care about synthesis, or control or destruction. The galaxy doesn't care about chaos OR solutions.

So what happens when NEW non-synthesized life forms begin to spring up? Will synthesized beings go to war with them? Will they offer synthesis to them when they reach a certain point in their civilizations' development? Will they even have a choice? And if not................how would that make the synthesized beings any different from the Reapers?


This was harder to debate before the EC, but none of the slides show any evidence of this total lack of diversity.  Krogans, Quarians are shown rebuilding their civilizations based on their own cultures, Krogan kids are still Krogan kids.  Individualism still exists and with that comes diversity of thought and ideals.  That means there's most likely going to be conflict, but not genocidal Organic vs. Synthetic conflict.  It's not that diversity was elminated, but everyone was given unifying understanding and ability.

So much so and as hinted by EDI's words, that true technological singularity and possibly ascendance, is possible.  Good luck "ascending" in any other ending.
Posted Image

The non synthesized life is a good question.  The fact is all life from AIs, Organics and the primordial goo they came from had been Synthesized.  Meaning it will be millions, if not billions of years before any new intelligent life doesn't have Synthesis.  By that point those pockets of life will probably be "infected" with synthesis or synthesis life will be long gone because of technological or evolutionary advancement/ascendance.

None of this removes the fact that the choice in itself is immoral for Shepard to make.  With the EC the Catalyst hints this was a problem before.  Organics refused any form of Synthesis when the Catalyst was still a peacemaker of sorts.

Edit:

For the record, I would make this choice if I was in Shepard's shoes.  If I felt it was too immoral actually being in those shoes during decision time, I could see myself going for Control.  Destroy isn't really an option for me.

Edit2:  Fixed some typos
Posted Image


Synthesis is hardest to accept because it would mean that the Catalyst would have to literally thwart the natural creative forces of the universe in order to keep new un-synthesized species from springing up.  And how would he do this?  For example, how would he synthesize an airbourne bacteria?

I'm going to go ahead and say that the Catalyst doesn't possess such abilities.  Which creates ANOTHER CYCLE.   Synthesis would have to be repeated again and again just like harvesting for it to be a lasting solution.  Because if any new species ever sprang up, it would threaten the balance of that Synthesized galaxy.

#239
jetfire118

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DESTROY! *MASTER RACE* F U Harby :P

#240
GabrielK

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I find that it's made that much more disturbing by the apparent fact that Bioware is pushing so hard for it to come across as A Good Thing™. At least that's what I got by the tone of it when I watched it.


And Joker's synthetic cap and all those synthetic trees are just as goofy the second time around as they were the first time.

Modifié par GabrielK, 28 juin 2012 - 08:26 .


#241
HenchxNarf

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Raptor2k1 wrote...

I think the green glow is just to let you know that something's changed. Realistically, I'd imagine that it'd be incredibly subtle nano-level technology, but since this is a visual medium, making them look exactly the same and just saying that they were now partially synthetic/augmented wouldn't be quite as powerful.

Shepard himself is half machine as it is--that's (apparently) why the entire thing would work in the first place. It's not like he's robbing them of their humanity, unless you want to claim that Shepard himself wasn't human after ME1. They don't act any different in any of the post-action cut-scenes despite their mechanical sheen (well, aside from the fact that joker no longer has a limp... go go robot legs). They're human 2.0, exactly the same, but with vastly improved mechanical traits and communication.

The circuit-board thing is kinda over-the-top, but it had to be to make the ending feel any different from the other ones. Watch the scenes--they rebuild, life goes on as it did. But now physical deficencies are a thing of the past as communicaiton and physicla traits have been nearly perfected. And given the alternatives presented to you, forcing improved physical tools and attributes on the world pales in comparison to genocide or mind-controlling entire civilizations. The thing that the EC ending explains way, way better than the old ones did is the fact that the Reapers themselves are effectively victims of the star child AI's weird peace scheme and slaves to its commands. In the control ending, trillions of aggregate lives are effectively enslaved to Shepard's (benevolent) will. Destroy murders an entire race that had just started to explore sentient and the concept of individuality. Giving everyone better physical traits doesn't even come close to being as tough a choice as those.

I really liked the synthesis ending--it is the only ending in the entire game that lets you truly save everyone. Humanuty, the Turians, Krogans, Asari, Geth, and even the Reapers themselves (being entire societies reaped for millenia past). Everyone is saved but yourself. I'm not really seeing the dystopic vibe in it; everything in the cinematic points to a utopia, not a dystopia.

I think the reapers may be misinterpreted in the EC synthesis ending too. They are no longe reapers. Without the creepy rogue AI star child's HAL-like mission to save the galaxy by purging, they are effetively arks for entire ancient civilizations. Only loose plot thread I'm left wondering about is what happened to the AI after synthesis occurs anyways? Did the AI gain understanding of organics that it lacked? Did it's mission complete and it terminated itself? Explosion take it out? Kinda confused too, and I think it may have been a little deceptive. It mentions that it was the creator of the reapers, in essence, but also alluded to itself as being the manifestation of all the reapers will--I feel like that can't be THAT accurate, seeing as the AI itself mentions that the first reaper was flat out unwilling... but anyways, I'm digressing. Point being that it seemed like a lot of what the reapers did was likely caused by the AI controlling or influencing them to do so. Possibly via consensus with instant-robot comm stuff but again, I digress...

The only thing I take issue about with it is the fact that it's really, really weird that the only way to synthesize a hybrid DNA strand is to throw your entire body into a giant energy reactor. Couldn't we just like... use a blood sample or a skin graft or something?


THIS! YES.

IA, and honestly, this was the only choice for my Shep. It's a way she could be with Kaidan forever if you think about it.

Is it a little creepy? Yeah, I guess.

But so is being a giant reaper...

#242
AtreiyaN7

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Well now, I don't know how you make it through your day, OP, seeing people with artificial limbs or cochlear implants or prosthetic eyes or pacemakers or contact lenses with funny colors or body modifications or tattoos even. I mean, since you're apparently so superficial as to judge people by their eye color, I'm sure that a lot of people in the world must offend you with their non-natural body parts and body modifications! *sarcasm*

You want to know who would pick Synthesis? Probably someone with a more enlightened outlook on science, life and AIs than you. I just can't take arguments like yours particularly seriously anymore, that includes the hypocritical "violation" angle and the totalitarianism thing I saw in another post. The fact is that Synthesis no more violates anyone's rights than any of the other options available. Do you want to be selfish for the sake of your principles? Then you can refuse to make any choice and, bam, you condemn everyone to die - without their permission..

It must be really great to be responsible for the deaths of trillions of people and the destruction of every advanced civilization in this Cycle. Give yourself a pat on the back for that one! I'm 99% sure that if you asked everyone, they might be more amenable to options that give them a chance to live instead of pointlessly and needlessly dying, but hey, you went ahead and decided what to do all on your own - total violation of their free will! *sarcasm*

You want to Destroy all synthetics? Congratulations on murdering countless intelligence beings because you apparently place a greater value on being a meatbag and hanging on to your hang-ups than, say, knowledge and peaceful coexistence. Sorry, were the geth asked if this was okay? No? You violated their free will! *more sarcasm*

Control? You take the reins as a new god - which I personally have nothing against per se in this case since it seems to work out. However, I'm not sure everyone would have agreed to you serving as a benevolent god protecting them from the Reapers and ordering the Reapers around. I mean, hey, there might be outbreaks of "mass paranoia and suicide" because of this, right? *additional sarcasm*

And there's clearly no "mass paranoia and suicide," in Synthesis as is evident in the epilogue. Your "arguments" seems pretty flimsy to me, especially when that particular statement was flat-out wrong.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 28 juin 2012 - 09:37 .


#243
Ang3l o Xn6

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the starbrat said crap: this ending is not the best but the worst ending ever created by human, it's racist, arrogant, horrifying etc ...

I never let my Shep playing as God, NEVER ! You know what Hitler should love this one ...

#244
GabrielK

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AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Well now, I don't know how you make it through your day, OP, seeing people with artificial limbs or cochlear implants or prosthetic eyes or pacemakers or contact lenses with funny colors or body modifications or tattoos even. I mean, since you're apparently so superficial as to judge people by their eye color, I'm sure that a lot of people in the world must offend you with their non-natural body parts and body modifications! *sarcasm*



I didn't get the sense that the OP was saying people with body mods were inherently disgusting to him/her, but rather the implications of it being forced on everyone. It's kind of like...sure, a mechanical arm might offer a lot of advantages over your natural arm...but a lot of people would be freaked out if they woke up one day and their arm was replaced with a mechanical one. Maybe you might be OK with it because of the advantages it offers, or that it just looks cool, or what have you...but a lot of people would indeed consider it a violation to have done to them without consent.

#245
agu123

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I wasn't grossed out when I saw Joker's arm. I just laughed.

#246
SpamBot2000

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As i just posted on another thread I didn't read: the real synthesis for this particular dialectic frankly is what I spent 3 games working on. Of course this will take millenia, but certainly would not result in The End of History and creepy tech zombie existence for ever after. More like, "oh, so peace between us is possible after all." Just say no to SpaceMagic.

#247
Aylyese

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ShadowJ20 wrote...

Helm505 wrote...

Here's the issue with Synthesis: that organic/synthetic dichotomy is not a convincing problem, certainly not on the scale the Catalyst says it is.



It is a major problem. The catalyst isn't lying.

https://twitter.com/...107278174339073


If you have to resort to twitter, you merely help to prove how sloppy and bad the ending actually is.

Just sayin...

#248
SpamBot2000

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What, now we're believing Gamble?

#249
Guest_ShadowJ20_*

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Helm505 wrote...

Picking Synthesis stops synthetics from wiping out organics. Okay. There's no proof that it's the only way to stop that from happening.

The Catalyst was programmed to believe this was a problem. It's entire world view is shaped on the assumption that synthetics will wipe out organics if not somehow checked. It's not lying. It's just got a flawed understanding of the universe.


No the writer(probably Mac Walters) is telling you through the Catalyst that it is inevitable that Synthetics will one day wipe out all organics.

Synthesis is the only way because no one knows besides Shepard that this is a problem.  Control doesn't really solve anything, Shepard just becomes the new Catalyst. You can argue that in destroy that he can warn everyone, perhaps he bans building synthetics but I seriously doubt that ban will last 50K or 100k years down the road.

Modifié par ShadowJ20, 28 juin 2012 - 01:13 .