I couldn't really get over the fact that synthesis just turns everything into exactly what the reapers are. Sure the star kid says that it is the final stage of evolution, if that is true then I thought ok let the galaxy evolve to that level naturally instead of forcing it on everyone. I loved the line where he says they tried it before but it can't be forced because he is still basically asking you to force it on the galaxy.
Why are people so happy with synthesis?
Débuté par
David7204
, juin 27 2012 04:52
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#102
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:06
ThinkIntegral
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kblaze13 wrote...
ThinkIntegral wrote...
^You know what else is also an impairment of free will? The law.
saw that one coming the moment I read nagath's post.
and while yes it is in a sense impairment of free will, Laws, at least they are supposed to be in the USA, decided by the governing body which is given the power of officals elected into office by the majority of populace. In other words an agreed law.
Yes.
kblaze13 wrote...
Synth isn't doing this it's Shep forcing it onto EVERY SINGLE BEING IN THE GALAXY. How is that anything but Renegade?
And taking the Geth and EDI's life and choice in Destroy isn't renegade? They were never asked if they were willing to make that sacrifice. If you're so keen on freedom and choice then shouldn't they have had a say in the matter?
kblaze13 wrote...
It's not even shep's idea it's the starbrats idea. for all we know it could be an idea he was programmed with when he was created. For all we know he could have been created by some crazy version of a alien hitler, which isn't too far fetched when you think about how he made the reapers to wipe out organic life.
It still boils down to forcing a single person's decision on EVERYONE, which makes it different then most systems of Laws.
Which is the same risk posed by all the other decisions.
#103
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:07
LoboFH
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"I am alive...and I am not alone"
One of the best trilogy lines for one of the best trilogy characters. EDI was a a discovery.
One of the best trilogy lines for one of the best trilogy characters. EDI was a a discovery.
#104
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:10
Alexius
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Yeah, that line almost made me want to go with that ending...LoboFH wrote...
"I am alive...and I am not alone"
One of the best trilogy lines for one of the best trilogy characters. EDI was a a discovery.
#105
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:10
corporal doody
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CaliGuy033 wrote...
Why are people so happy with refusal? It's a terrible ending.
I mean, it's pretty clever, but it essentially is an ending in which you've utterly failed due to stubbornness.
i dont know bout that.
my thought...due to the new stargazer who says "those that came before us" but doesnt specify how long ago. We can assume it was a cycle...but she appears asari or asari-like....so perhaps Shep and crew (meaning the other species) actually won at GREAT GREAT COST. then again...if any species is gonna live on..it would be the asari.
we do see the VI left by Liara....but she said she had plans to plant it all over the place....she would have done this PRIOR to the mission to Earth.....JUST IN CASE.
The Refusal ending is the great speculation ending for those who wish to continue discussing SPECULATION.
#106
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:12
David7204
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God, I just want Shepard to getting a happy ending. At least there's eligible women for Joker still around. Miranda, Jack, Kelly, Ashley. Even more if Shepard is female and romances Garrus.
#107
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:12
countmeout88
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"Do the ends justify the means"? I think they do. Synthesis offers an incredible advancement to all organic and synthetic life, without killing or hurting anyone in the process. Of course, free will has to be taken into consideration, but I think evolving to the peak of organic life is kind of worth it...honestly, if tomorrow you woke up with the ability to think as fast as a computer and gained the knowledge of thousands, maybe millions of galactic civilizations, would you be pissed? Would you go looking for the person that gave it to you? I'd be pretty content.
Its not taking away individuality either, people would still have personalities and different appearances and the ability to choose what food to eat (if you need to eat at all) or what clothes to wear,or who you love. Thats the organic part of synthesis...its not just brainwashing people into being machines, its the best qualities of both melded into one.
Its not taking away individuality either, people would still have personalities and different appearances and the ability to choose what food to eat (if you need to eat at all) or what clothes to wear,or who you love. Thats the organic part of synthesis...its not just brainwashing people into being machines, its the best qualities of both melded into one.
#108
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:12
PsyrenY
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It's not for everyone. I was ready, but I can see how others wouldn't be.
#109
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:14
Zero132132
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It occurs to me that this is the sort of discussion they wanted the endings to foster. Disagreement over what's right and good rather than just constant nitpicking over how little any of it makes sense. EC was successful, then, I suppose.
#110
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:14
Cyricsservant101
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David7204 wrote...
God, I just want Shepard to getting a happy ending. At least there's eligible women for Joker still around. Miranda, Jack, Kelly, Ashley. Even more if Shepard is female and romances Garrus.
Well, Destroy I guess... Or Reaper Shepard could always get an EDI body ... Er... A male version, of course.
I'd make sure to get one that makes Shep look like a geth just to make his reunion with Tali extra awkward!
Modifié par Cyricsservant101, 27 juin 2012 - 06:15 .
#111
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:15
kblaze13
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I won't disagree with you on the Destroy ending except for one point, EDI. She was a part of Shep's team that kinda infers they were ALL willing to make that ultimate sacrifice to stop the Reapers.
That statement about the endings being renegade is pretty much my problem with all of them. We are pigeon holed into endings where no matter what we do it's renegade.
all of them have the renegade aspects with the only one that doesn't really being the new rejection ending, although that can easily be argued as having renegade aspects as well. So it boils down to the simple question of. What are you willing to give up to stop the reapers.
That statement about the endings being renegade is pretty much my problem with all of them. We are pigeon holed into endings where no matter what we do it's renegade.
all of them have the renegade aspects with the only one that doesn't really being the new rejection ending, although that can easily be argued as having renegade aspects as well. So it boils down to the simple question of. What are you willing to give up to stop the reapers.
#112
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:16
Cyricsservant101
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Zero132132 wrote...
It occurs to me that this is the sort of discussion they wanted the endings to foster. Disagreement over what's right and good rather than just constant nitpicking over how little any of it makes sense. EC was successful, then, I suppose.
True.
It's an upgrade from all the IT vs. bad writing arguments.
#113
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:17
thisisme8
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The irony in the title of this post is subtle, but amusing.
#114
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:18
kblaze13
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Cyricsservant101 wrote...
Zero132132 wrote...
It occurs to me that this is the sort of discussion they wanted the endings to foster. Disagreement over what's right and good rather than just constant nitpicking over how little any of it makes sense. EC was successful, then, I suppose.
True.
It's an upgrade from all the IT vs. bad writing arguments.
well if bad writing hadn't existed....
I jest I jest, but yeah probably right they want us debating the "morals" of each ending rather then going
#115
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:25
ThinkIntegral
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Yeah I see that, but shouldn't they still die on their own terms? She may not have had a chance for her to say her last goodbyes to Joker and the crew; just death that came unexpectedly.kblaze13 wrote...
I won't disagree with you on the Destroy ending except for one point, EDI. She was a part of Shep's team that kinda infers they were ALL willing to make that ultimate sacrifice to stop the Reapers.
kblaze13 wrote...
That statement about the endings being renegade is pretty much my problem with all of them. We are pigeon holed into endings where no matter what we do it's renegade.
all of them have the renegade aspects with the only one that doesn't really being the new rejection ending, although that can easily be argued as having renegade aspects as well. So it boils down to the simple question of. What are you willing to give up to stop the reapers.
Right, so you have to balance the lesser evil that yields the "best" result. Personally, I don't see how that's Destroy when the larger problem is still at hand.
#116
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:27
cavs25
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countmeout88 wrote...
"Do the ends justify the means"? I think they do. Synthesis offers an incredible advancement to all organic and synthetic life, without killing or hurting anyone in the process. Of course, free will has to be taken into consideration, but I think evolving to the peak of organic life is kind of worth it...honestly, if tomorrow you woke up with the ability to think as fast as a computer and gained the knowledge of thousands, maybe millions of galactic civilizations, would you be pissed? Would you go looking for the person that gave it to you? I'd be pretty content.
Its not taking away individuality either, people would still have personalities and different appearances and the ability to choose what food to eat (if you need to eat at all) or what clothes to wear,or who you love. Thats the organic part of synthesis...its not just brainwashing people into being machines, its the best qualities of both melded into one.
And all of this was brought to you by the power of SPACE MAGIC
100% space magic in the ending of your choice!
Rejectionl Ending not included*
#117
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:27
Muugin
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I have two basic problems when it comes to synthesis:
One being a homogeneity of life in the Milky Way. There's something unsettling about the idea that all life in a single galaxy now shares the same basic genetic package.
The second being the mile high can of existentialism and class citizen ship shlock that opens as a result. There was a Disney parody video, something along the lines of "Everything is Alive", and the basic gist of the parody is how much that would really suck. Take your iPad for example, if its alive somewhere between organic and synthetic life, what happens to it when you want to throw it away for an upgraded new model? Does it have the same right to life you'd apply to other living creatures? Say you buy a fancy new phone on a two year contract, does the phone have the right to refuse its own enslavement to your use? what about lesser machines that are built to be destroyed through some means of academic study or used up regularly in a working environment, is that then creation and genocide? If we're establishing the context that all things on either side and crossed between machine and man are alive and sentient to some relative term, where do we draw the lines as far as the rights of the citizenship? Do we consider lesser machines, who may be just as alive as high functioning automated robots, to be lesser citizens? You see where this gets troublesome in the long run.
One being a homogeneity of life in the Milky Way. There's something unsettling about the idea that all life in a single galaxy now shares the same basic genetic package.
The second being the mile high can of existentialism and class citizen ship shlock that opens as a result. There was a Disney parody video, something along the lines of "Everything is Alive", and the basic gist of the parody is how much that would really suck. Take your iPad for example, if its alive somewhere between organic and synthetic life, what happens to it when you want to throw it away for an upgraded new model? Does it have the same right to life you'd apply to other living creatures? Say you buy a fancy new phone on a two year contract, does the phone have the right to refuse its own enslavement to your use? what about lesser machines that are built to be destroyed through some means of academic study or used up regularly in a working environment, is that then creation and genocide? If we're establishing the context that all things on either side and crossed between machine and man are alive and sentient to some relative term, where do we draw the lines as far as the rights of the citizenship? Do we consider lesser machines, who may be just as alive as high functioning automated robots, to be lesser citizens? You see where this gets troublesome in the long run.
#118
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 06:46
azerSheppard
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Yeah, real men only like TOTAL ANARCHY AND BURNING OF INFANTS!!!! whoooho, pass the beer keg and lets go shoot a deer!Taboo-XX wrote...
Being alive =/= Free
A Utopia is for idealists and fools.
:whistle:A utopia is never implied anywhere, the only thing synthesis implies is COEXISTANCE.
coexistance =/= Utopia
#119
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 07:44
AtreiyaN7
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Since it's quite obvious from the epilogue that people are behaving like normal krogans/humans/asari/turians/quarians after Synthesis, what is the problem that people have with Synthesis at this point other than that Shepard didn't get handwritten permission slips from everyone so that their free will wasn't stomped all over?
The Catalyst indicated that we (or at least Shepard) had achieved a level of readiness/acceptance that would make it viable, unlike past failed attempts that were unsuccessful because they had been forced when people weren't ready for it. The evidence was clear that things do work out nicely for everyone in Synthesis despite the ten million objections people seem to have.
Can you seriously, with a straight face, tell me that the krogans rebuilding their world is a terrible thing? Or that the fact that we end up free to explore and build and seek knowledge instead of trying to kill each other is somehow bad? Yeah, God knows that it's a horrible, HORRIBLE thing when we can move past our hatreds and conflicts to making the world a better place and to better ourselves. I mean, that is absolutely the worst situation that I can imagine. *rolleyes*
I suspect that those of us who embrace Synthesis do so in part because we're idealists. Like I was saying to someone in my feed, I basically believe in the possibility of a better future where we can coexist in peace. In South Africa, apartheid was a system of oppression and brutality aimed at black Africans. There was a lot of pain and suffering and injustice. Once Nelson Mandela became president and the apartheid system was broken, it would have been very easy for him to be vengeful, but you know what? He was the better man and preached for reconciliation and unity. He wanted peace instead of bloodshed.
I'd rather follow the real-world example of someone like Mandela and take my chances with Synthesis rather than destroy entire races solely because of what they are and because of what some of them did (the Reapers aren't representative of all synthetic races after all) and for some sacred cow of pure, unadulterated free will. For the price of a physiological transformation that's fairly superficial on the surface, we end up gaining so much more.
The Catalyst indicated that we (or at least Shepard) had achieved a level of readiness/acceptance that would make it viable, unlike past failed attempts that were unsuccessful because they had been forced when people weren't ready for it. The evidence was clear that things do work out nicely for everyone in Synthesis despite the ten million objections people seem to have.
Can you seriously, with a straight face, tell me that the krogans rebuilding their world is a terrible thing? Or that the fact that we end up free to explore and build and seek knowledge instead of trying to kill each other is somehow bad? Yeah, God knows that it's a horrible, HORRIBLE thing when we can move past our hatreds and conflicts to making the world a better place and to better ourselves. I mean, that is absolutely the worst situation that I can imagine. *rolleyes*
I suspect that those of us who embrace Synthesis do so in part because we're idealists. Like I was saying to someone in my feed, I basically believe in the possibility of a better future where we can coexist in peace. In South Africa, apartheid was a system of oppression and brutality aimed at black Africans. There was a lot of pain and suffering and injustice. Once Nelson Mandela became president and the apartheid system was broken, it would have been very easy for him to be vengeful, but you know what? He was the better man and preached for reconciliation and unity. He wanted peace instead of bloodshed.
I'd rather follow the real-world example of someone like Mandela and take my chances with Synthesis rather than destroy entire races solely because of what they are and because of what some of them did (the Reapers aren't representative of all synthetic races after all) and for some sacred cow of pure, unadulterated free will. For the price of a physiological transformation that's fairly superficial on the surface, we end up gaining so much more.
#120
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 07:47
kyban
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Taboo-XX wrote...
Being alive =/= Free
A Utopia is for idealists and fools.
So True. A "paradise" is not a good story. How will Mass Effect continue after this game? Is it all prequels? lame.
#121
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 08:06
Suspire
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I'm an idealist and thought it was wrong. The thing that creeps me out the most is not even the green glow or how machines have DNA (whut), but how "in complete perfection and harmony" everything is described... it sounds too good to be true and... those things are always deceptively wrong.. like in Brave New World. Transcend mortality.. do they live forever now? Eh. Also I keep remembering things like how the geth wanted to achieve their own path and not use Reaper technology to evolve and that felt right to me, so this felt... weird. Scary. Unnatural.
Another issue is how it assumes organics source of conflicts are synthetics, like if everyone had the same type of DNA people would suddenly be nice and happy and in agreement. That's so silly, it wouldn't solve chaos like it was supposed to. But it's also a problem with the catalyst's logic for all endings too. I don't trust that kid who sounds strangely like Harbinger.
And poor Saren lol. The thing he died for.
But it's just my opinion. At least people can say that there is an ending with "rainbows and unicorns" XD
Edit: ok the more I read about the "logic" of it and what it might have done to everyone, the less sense it makes and more wrong it sounds. @_@ If they all live like organics, it's still problematic, if they live like synthetics, it's also problematic, and if everyone gets along perfectly it sounds like brainwash. On top of it it all sounds like magic. I think that bar in heaven with Garrus sounds better to have had in the game now.
Edit 2: ohgods Muugin you broke my brain XDD that would be... problematic.
I'm still fine with people liking it, of course, it's great if you are happy with it. I'm not "complaining" (yeah I am, but politely and with a purpose), just giving my opinion.
Another issue is how it assumes organics source of conflicts are synthetics, like if everyone had the same type of DNA people would suddenly be nice and happy and in agreement. That's so silly, it wouldn't solve chaos like it was supposed to. But it's also a problem with the catalyst's logic for all endings too. I don't trust that kid who sounds strangely like Harbinger.
And poor Saren lol. The thing he died for.
But it's just my opinion. At least people can say that there is an ending with "rainbows and unicorns" XD
Edit: ok the more I read about the "logic" of it and what it might have done to everyone, the less sense it makes and more wrong it sounds. @_@ If they all live like organics, it's still problematic, if they live like synthetics, it's also problematic, and if everyone gets along perfectly it sounds like brainwash. On top of it it all sounds like magic. I think that bar in heaven with Garrus sounds better to have had in the game now.
Edit 2: ohgods Muugin you broke my brain XDD that would be... problematic.
I'm still fine with people liking it, of course, it's great if you are happy with it. I'm not "complaining" (yeah I am, but politely and with a purpose), just giving my opinion.
Modifié par Suspire, 27 juin 2012 - 09:05 .
#122
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 08:14
JedTed
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With Synthesis, Joker doesn't have to worry about breaking a hip when gettin busy with Edi. That's always been one of my justifications for that choice. 
#123
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 08:23
Xamufam
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actully synthesis is also genocide of organics how many would survive the transformation, (giving machines organoc parts lol)bobwill wrote...
I went with it because it saved the most lives. When the star child said that it would basically unshackle the conciousness of all the previous civilizations that had been turned into Reapers, I figured going with destruction would be the worst act of genocide in the entire galaxy.
controll everyone survives except shep
#124
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 10:42
Xamufam
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whitout conflict there is no meaning to lifeVexille wrote...
Armass81 wrote...
Vexille wrote...
Armass81 wrote...
kblaze13 wrote...
Armass81 wrote...
Youd reject utopia if it was offered to you?
In a heartbeat.
Humanity doesn't thrive in peace, we excel in conflict.
look at the science achivements throughout history it was always driven by a need to out do, outbuild, or outfight, another human or group of humans.
Not sure about the asari, but pretty sure the Turians, and Krogan are also along the same lines as humans, which is oddly enough why they probably have as much dislike as they do respect for us. Since as different as humans are to them, they are at the core VERY similar.
So if you love conflict, enlist into the next war. Then come back to me with whatever syndrome you have and say to me how fun it was and how you wish this could continue for all time. War is not pretty and its the worst form of conflict.
Id say peace is still preferable...
conflict is part of human nature, its never going away. War does however spark inovation... do you realize how much of the everyday tech we use was orginially designed and funded for military purposes?
Small conflict probably yes, but given enough time, wisdom and life id say we can grow out of the big ones. Like war. Ideal world doesnt mean everyone has to be a saint.
get real hippy, weve had war since one caveman decided to beat another caveman to death with a rock over food...
as long as there are humans there will be war
#125
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 11:10
godlike13
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I disagree with the catalyst's opinion that all organics seek perfection. Hell what really is "perfection". My problem with Synthesis is that ur choosing for the universe to make them into the catalyst's (an AI) idea of "perfection". No thanks ill take imperfection, and all the endless possibilities that come with it.
Modifié par godlike13, 27 juin 2012 - 11:11 .
