766 réponses à ce sujet

[SwitchN7]

Thane needs to die so i can joyfully stab Kai Leng in his filthy ribs.

[RShara]

[quote]blacqout wrote...
This is what we in the biz refer to as a strawman. No one has said that Keiji's resurrection is fine.
[/quote]

[quote]RShara wrote...
To clarify: Okay with Bioware.
[/quote]
[quote]blacqout wrote...
BioWare haven't called any of you childish. Keep propping up that straw.
[/quote][/quote]

wtf are you talking about?


And great for ignoring the second part.

Modifié par RShara, 29 juin 2012 - 06:17 .

[blacqout]

Your post was a misrepresentation of both the argument against Thane DLC, and BioWare's stance on the matter. You know, a 'strawman argument'.

Nobody here is defending the Keiji epilogue slide, and BioWare haven't called any of you "childish". Please, try to be less intellectually dishonest.

Modifié par blacqout, 29 juin 2012 - 06:21 .

[RShara]

Pot, meet kettle.

I never said Bioware called any of us childish. And I never said anyone here was defending the Keiji epilogue slide.

What I DID say was that Bioware thought bringing Keiji back was fine, but bringing Thane back would trivialize his character.

And you're still ignoring the second part of my post.

[LoonySpectre]

Actually, the "three months" Thane mentions don't seem like a retcon to me. This borders more on morbid humour, like, "some doctors thought I should be already dead... well, they're kinda wrong". So we can assume that nothing concrete was ever said about his life expentancy before he was stabbed by KL. Yes, he's weaker than he was in ME2, but that's about all.
And the sudden "memorial wall syndrome"... if this happens after the Cerberus coup, Thane, failing to contact Shepard, could have just taken on some Cerberus troops on his own (perhaps trying to find Kolyat or help defend the hospital) and get shot instead of dying of his disease.
So, there is no evidence aside of Thane's joke that he was inevitably going to die of Kepral's during the course of the game.

Modifié par LoonySpectre, 29 juin 2012 - 06:33 .

[giftfish]

blacqout wrote...

I'm not sure that wanting a game changed to suit your tastes really constitutes "mature". Thane's death served a purpose within the narrative. By wanting to remove that, you do want to change my game.

This is where I think we are running into the issue.

We are not saying that the current content should be removed.  We understand that some people find the current ending appropriate, and we think you should be able to keep the current treatment of Thane if that's what feels "true" to you in the game.

What we are suggesting is additional content, as part of a larger Romance DLC Pack, that brings Thane's romanced ME3 character more in line with his romanced ME2 character.  This may, but does not have to include, an option to save him.  The current game content would be retained, but additional content would be available to those that romanced him in ME2.  The player's choices would determine his fate.  

Modifié par giftfish, 29 juin 2012 - 06:45 .

[Bluecansam]

LoonySpectre wrote...

Actually, the "three months" Thane mentions don't seem like a retcon to me. This borders more on morbid humour, like, "some doctors thought I should be already dead... well, they're kinda wrong". So we can assume that nothing concrete was ever said about his life expentancy before he was stabbed by KL. Yes, he's weaker than he was in ME2, but that's about all.
And the sudden "memorial wall syndrome"... if this happens after the Cerberus coup, Thane, failing to contact Shepard, could have just taken on some Cerberus troops on his own (perhaps trying to find Kolyat or help defend the hospital) and get shot instead of dying of his disease.
So, there is no evidence aside of Thane's joke that he was inevitably going to die of Kepral's during the course of the game.

He says in ME2 that he had 8-12 months before he would be incapacitated. How is that not a retcon without wild speculation that has no evidence to support it?

Also, regardless of HOW he dies off screen, he does die, and there is no way to stop it. If Miranda were to die, or Liara, and there was no way to stop it, you'd be sure their fans would be crying foul too.

[Steel Dancer]

The simple fact is this: they killed off a character that was designed purely and solely as an LI* in a frankly quite cheap way.

Three heavily armed, very powerful individuals just stood there going "derp" while KL carved up Thane. Kirrahe, if alive, should have been assigned to the Councillor as I mentioned earlier, and Thane doesn't simply blow KLs damn fool head off while at point blank range.

As I said: cheap.








*Sorry to say that, but on a technical level it's true. He has no specialised role to fulfil on the Suicide Run. He's still damn cool though.

[giftfish]

Bluecansam wrote...
He says in ME2 that he had 8-12 months before he would be incapacitated. How is that not a retcon without wild speculation that has no evidence to support it?

I'm not sure this is quite accurate. 

In this dialog Shep is basically asking him if he will be ok long enough to finish the mission.  I don't think his reply of 8-12 months is meant to be interpreted as after that he will be "incapacitated", but rather, after that point he would not be well enough to be of use to Shep in the mission.

[Bluecansam]

giftfish wrote...

CHALET wrote...

A full romance DLC for expanded content on every LI? That's more reasonable than a single character and fairer.

While the OP eluded to a "Thane DLC", I believe all of the Thane-supporters speaking in this thread are in support of a full romance DLC, like you speak of.

Yes, THIS. We are not so idealistic as to think that Bioware will just give a portion of their fanbase a DLC just for them. We want something as part of a larger Romance DLC - something for EVERY LI. But we don't want people to forget that Thane IS an LI. Which Bioware seemed to have forgotten for ME3.

[LoonySpectre]

I just wanted to say that he didn't have to die, based on all in-game evidence. Bioware really just forced that on us. Thane dies, lots of drama surely, establishes Kai Leng as a hated character... but it's really a bit too forced, regardless of whether Shepard romanced Thane or not.
By the way, Jacob was mentioned in the thread... it kinda bugs me that this adulterer is the only ME2 ex-squadmate who's guaranteed to survive no matter what. All other squaddies introduced in ME2 either can die (Miranda, Mordin, Grunt, Jack, Samara, Kasumi, Zaeed) or will die (Thane, Legion, Morinth) in ME3.

[Bluecansam]

blacqout wrote...

I'm not sure that wanting a game changed to suit your tastes really constitutes "mature". Thane's death served a purpose within the narrative. By wanting to remove that, you do want to change my game. 

And no - not everyone else "got it". Those that romanced Jacob probably were far more unhappy with how things turned out. Not everything has to turn out well, in fact Mass Effect 3 did a great job of having the tragic moments shine a light on the more triumphant and happy ones. 

Like i said, maybe you should stick to kids stories.

How is what we're asking for any less mature than other people asking for new endings? New endings GREATLY changes the game for everyone, but because it's a more popular opinion that makes it more mature? How narrow-minded.

Thane's death served a MINOR purpose within the narrative, one that can just as easily be replaced with Kirrahe. And despite what a lot of you seem to think, a fight scene where Shepard has NO ability to intervene is NOT awesome. A fight scene where Thane makes rookie mistakes like not shooting the bastard when he has the chance, or closing in on a guy with a sword is NOT awesome. A fight scene that ends with Kai Leng winning, not because of superior skills, but because of plot armor is NOT awesome.

I'm not really mad Thane's dead. I'm mad that I was railroaded into LETTING HIM DIE.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Still seeing conflicting thoughts by those who never romanced him. I'm not sure how it can get any clearer at this point. Non-romanced Thane != Romanced Thane

Once again, he was written in ME3 with no romance in mind. This is VERY evident considering how the whole situation ended. A few dialogue changes don't cut it. He's completely altered personality-wise, as if the romance never did happen.

What I find especially funny about all this is how I used to say that if Thane did end up dying in ME3, it wouldn't be handled well as Shepard would just shrug and walk away. As it is, this is precisely what happens. He's not mentioned once after he closes his eyes. Shepard acts as if she never knew him. Because I knew that would happen, I thought the best way to avoid it is to prolong his life somehow, or just have him cured.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 29 juin 2012 - 07:03 .

[Bluecansam]

giftfish wrote...

I'm not sure this is quite accurate. 

In this dialog Shep is basically asking him if he will be ok long enough to finish the mission.  I don't think his reply of 8-12 months is meant to be interpreted as after that he will be "incapacitated", but rather, after that point he would not be well enough to be of use to Shep in the mission.

Right. 8-12 months in which he is fully well to take on a super duper stressful mission. Meanwhile, 6-ish months later, he's dying. And saying that 9 months ago (while he was off fighting Collectors) some doctor said he only had 3 months to live. Any way you add it up, he shouldn't be knocking on death's door just yet.

[Moira-chan]

glad to heat that most of you understand...i was really quite down after the post in the afternoon.
thanks for this :-]

[LoonySpectre]

To give some perspective - I just like Thane, never romanced him with my FShep.
By the way, in that "leaked script" mission, the Council did hail Thane as a hero and asked Shepard about him at the debriefing. But, sadly, this didn't make it into the final game...

[Cribbian]

Is anyone from here going to be at comic-con? Maybe try and pry some information from the devs.

[Moira-chan]

LoonySpectre wrote...

To give some perspective - I just like Thane, never romanced him with my FShep.
By the way, in that "leaked script" mission, the Council did hail Thane as a hero and asked Shepard about him at the debriefing. But, sadly, this didn't make it into the final game...

really? did not know this. well, that makes it even more hard

[Renmiri1]

SwitchN7 wrote...

Thane needs to die so i can joyfully stab Kai Leng in his filthy ribs.

Yup.

That is what all the self absorbed people who never pause to read past the title think and feel. IFor them Thane i not a humanoid being with a son to raise alone, he is just some excuse to shed manly tears and go get revenge on the ninja wannabe. Thane, red shirted guys on startrek, adorable children on "lone hero bent on revenge" movies.. They are all there just to be mowed down in the most horrible way to make that lone hero angst possible.

Is very one-dimension and childish. I'd recomend Marvel Comics for those who like this kind of cheap thrills. (PS: I know you said it tongue-in-cheek, so this is not aimed at you SwitchN7.. is more aimed at the self elected "owner of Mass Effect Trilogy" below)

blacqout wrote...

It's clear to me that the more creative a person, the more likely they are to enjoy and appreciate the ending. 

I can't believe how many people are struggling to wrap their little minds around the fact that the series features many shifts in tone and theme. There is no law stating that a story has to focus on one core theme, leaving smaller ones on the periphary. 

Perhaps you guys should stick to more traditional tales.

 

Why looky here... So if people don't like the ending they have "little brains", if they want an  option to cure a character - after an entire species has ben cured by space magic - they are a detriment to the game.

When did you buy BioWare from EA ? I didn't see the news on the stockholder's meeting. I assume you now own the entire intellectual property of Mass Effect since you seem to have assumed the role of judging who can and can not play it. Was it expensive ?  Did you pay it with BS such as "only creatives can appreciate the non-linear story" ?

Modifié par Renmiri1, 29 juin 2012 - 10:14 .

[mnomaha]

*dribbles coffee*

@Renmiri...I love you...I just FLU.

[Karimloo]

TullyAckland wrote...

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

TullyAckland wrote...

Player choice is important, but we also believe those choices are only meaningful when part of a storyline that bears some reality or truth. With Thane, the player faced the experience of developing a bond with a character that had a terminal disease. We felt it would have trivialized Thane’s experience, and the value of that kind of storyline, if the player was able to simply “solve” his problem and let him live happily ever after.


Also, moved this to spoiler forum.

I would put the counter-argument that while that is certainly valid, the reality the Shepard does not ever reflect on Thane again, throughout the entire game (minus the one slide now introduced in the EC) and that the "romance" feels less like an actual romantic moment and more of a quick tumble in the hay is what most Thane fans are upset about. And given how much space was devoted to characters like Liara, I do understand where fans of other characters are coming from. That is my theory on why people want more Thane - because the game content is put together in a way that makes you wonder if it's just there because it "had to be".

Do you not remember what is said during Kai Leng's demise?

WOLOLOLOLO You mean the thing that gets replaced with pretty much every other Squadie if he's not even relevant in your playthrough?