766 réponses à ce sujet

[blacqout]

Moira-chan wrote...

guys, leave him, it's useless, we can bring up as many arguments as we wanted. it's a draw right here. why are you always coming back blacquot? do you want this thread to be shut down because of trolling?

Are you seriously implying that anyone who disagrees with you is a troll? You are free to present your opinions here, just as i am free to oppose them. 

If you want an enviornment where everyone has to agree with you, then you should be using a private group. 

If yout thoughts can't stand on their own, but rather rely on dissenting views being banished, then you should probably rethink them.

[shodiswe]

TullyAckland wrote...

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

TullyAckland wrote...

Player choice is important, but we also believe those choices are only meaningful when part of a storyline that bears some reality or truth. With Thane, the player faced the experience of developing a bond with a character that had a terminal disease. We felt it would have trivialized Thane’s experience, and the value of that kind of storyline, if the player was able to simply “solve” his problem and let him live happily ever after.


Also, moved this to spoiler forum.

I would put the counter-argument that while that is certainly valid, the reality the Shepard does not ever reflect on Thane again, throughout the entire game (minus the one slide now introduced in the EC) and that the "romance" feels less like an actual romantic moment and more of a quick tumble in the hay is what most Thane fans are upset about. And given how much space was devoted to characters like Liara, I do understand where fans of other characters are coming from. That is my theory on why people want more Thane - because the game content is put together in a way that makes you wonder if it's just there because it "had to be".

Do you not remember what is said during Kai Leng's demise?

In a way Thane got a good ending imo... He was dying painfull before KL stabbed him, and he saved a life and became a hero.
He might not have had more than a few weeks or a month left as it was, he even got to say good bye to his son and a good friend.

[Moira-chan]

blacqout wrote...

Moira-chan wrote...

guys,
leave him, it's useless, we can bring up as many arguments as we wanted.
it's a draw right here. why are you always coming back blacquot? do you
want this thread to be shut down because of trolling?

Are
you seriously implying that anyone who disagrees with you is a troll?
You are free to present your opinions here, just as i am free to oppose
them. 

If you want an enviornment where everyone has to agree with you, then you should be using a private group. 

If
yout thoughts can't stand on their own, but rather rely on dissenting
views being banished, then you should probably rethink them.

no i don't see anyone who disagree as a troll, you missunderstood me, sorry, maybe it comes over wrong, it's not my mother tongue, but i mean, that i don't get why you care. it does not touc your game, because it's an option, so why don't you leave it like this.
i'm quiet sure, that not one thanemancer will be convinced and after this 2 days things we can't convince you, so i would leave it as a draw, and that's it. that leads to nothing

Modifié par Moira-chan, 30 juin 2012 - 06:59 .

[blacqout]

Moira-chan wrote...

no i don't see anyone who disagree as a troll, you missunderstood me, sorry, maybe it comes over wrong, it's not my mother tongue, but i mean, that i don't get why you care. it does not touc your game, because it's an option, so why don't you leave it like this.
i'm quiet sure, that not one thanemancer will be convinced and after this 2 days things we can't convince you, so i would leave it as a draw, and that's it. that leads to nothing

English isn't my first languag either, but okay. It sounded as though you were calling me a troll. If you say that you were not, then i forgive you.

I've explained why i care. Time spent on ME2 character DLC is time that could be spent on something better. 

Also, adding new possibilities to my game does change it. Why would i not do anything possible to save Thane? Sometimes, a writer needs to force tragedy in order for players to accept it. I think that in DA2, it used to be possible to save Hawkes mother, but they removed the option for various story reasons.

[SMichelle]

blacqout wrote...

Moira-chan wrote...

guys, leave him, it's useless, we can bring up as many arguments as we wanted. it's a draw right here. why are you always coming back blacquot? do you want this thread to be shut down because of trolling?

Are you seriously implying that anyone who disagrees with you is a troll? You are free to present your opinions here, just as i am free to oppose them. 

If you want an enviornment where everyone has to agree with you, then you should be using a private group. 

If yout thoughts can't stand on their own, but rather rely on dissenting views being banished, then you should probably rethink them.

No.  I think she has a problem with your tone and attitude.  Perhaps you don't mean to come off as condescending in your posts. 

But you seem to enjoy coming to this thread and saying (to paraphrase Anchorman) "You're just a woman with a small brain."

Modifié par SMichelle, 30 juin 2012 - 07:05 .

[Moira-chan]

blacqout wrote...

Moira-chan wrote...

no i don't see anyone who disagree as a troll, you missunderstood me, sorry, maybe it comes over wrong, it's not my mother tongue, but i mean, that i don't get why you care. it does not touc your game, because it's an option, so why don't you leave it like this.
i'm quiet sure, that not one thanemancer will be convinced and after this 2 days things we can't convince you, so i would leave it as a draw, and that's it. that leads to nothing

English isn't my first languag either, but okay. It sounded as though you were calling me a troll. If you say that you were not, then i forgive you.

I've explained why i care. Time spent on ME2 character DLC is time that could be spent on something better. 

Also, adding new possibilities to my game does change it. Why would i not do anything possible to save Thane? Sometimes, a writer needs to force tragedy in order for players to accept it. I think that in DA2, it used to be possible to save Hawkes mother, but they removed the option for various story reasons.

so, do i get you right? you don't want any improvement for LI's? or is your problem just thane? because we don't want just one for him anyway, this thread just wants to explain why we want one, not more not less, it should offer suggestions for alternative storyline.
but it's a choice thing. more choice are never bad, even it's difficult to handle, i know by myself, but no one has to choose this option. it's not a patch, a dlc, so you just don't have to download it, anyway. so i don't get what's it all about.

why not? it could be done, when all other planned dlc are over and done. so why not? it's not just thane, that was cut off and you suppose your support in the general me LI thread, that was you right?

[Moira-chan]

SMichelle wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Moira-chan wrote...

guys, leave him, it's useless, we can bring up as many arguments as we wanted. it's a draw right here. why are you always coming back blacquot? do you want this thread to be shut down because of trolling?

Are you seriously implying that anyone who disagrees with you is a troll? You are free to present your opinions here, just as i am free to oppose them. 

If you want an enviornment where everyone has to agree with you, then you should be using a private group. 

If yout thoughts can't stand on their own, but rather rely on dissenting views being banished, then you should probably rethink them.

No.  I think she has a problem with your tone and attitude.  Perhaps you don't mean to come off as condescending in your posts. 

But you seem to enjoy coming to this thread and saying (to paraphrase Anchorman) "You're just a woman with a small brain."

yes, that's what i meant. i don't want to be mean...but i don't found a better word for it

[English Cooper]

Saying that time spent on a ME 2 character DLC is time wasted is like saying Lair of the Shadow Broker was time wasted for a ME 1 character in ME 2..

It isn't really the subject of the DLC that would be the issue it is how it plays out, in this case this particular group is suggesting a DLC's that involves ME 2 characters (In this case Thane)... you can have a great story and gameplay DLC with ME 2 characters the two things are not mutually exclusive.

[blacqout]

Moira-chan wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Moira-chan wrote...

no i don't see anyone who disagree as a troll, you missunderstood me, sorry, maybe it comes over wrong, it's not my mother tongue, but i mean, that i don't get why you care. it does not touc your game, because it's an option, so why don't you leave it like this.
i'm quiet sure, that not one thanemancer will be convinced and after this 2 days things we can't convince you, so i would leave it as a draw, and that's it. that leads to nothing

English isn't my first languag either, but okay. It sounded as though you were calling me a troll. If you say that you were not, then i forgive you.

I've explained why i care. Time spent on ME2 character DLC is time that could be spent on something better. 

Also, adding new possibilities to my game does change it. Why would i not do anything possible to save Thane? Sometimes, a writer needs to force tragedy in order for players to accept it. I think that in DA2, it used to be possible to save Hawkes mother, but they removed the option for various story reasons.

so, do i get you right? you don't want any improvement for LI's? or is your problem just thane? because we don't want just one for him anyway, this thread just wants to explain why we want one, not more not less, it should offer suggestions for alternative storyline.
but it's a choice thing. more choice are never bad, even it's difficult to handle, i know by myself, but no one has to choose this option. it's not a patch, a dlc, so you just don't have to download it, anyway. so i don't get what's it all about.

why not? it could be done, when all other planned dlc are over and done. so why not? it's not just thane, that was cut off and you suppose your support in the general me LI thread, that was you right?

Sometimes choice is bad. If i could have saved Hawkes mother i would have, and then i wouldn't have had the touching reuinion with Carver during the Qunari invasion. If i save Thane, which i would always do, i'd miss out on the death scene, which i really liked. For the sake of the narrative, sometimes characters have to die. 

I don't find "don't download it" a compelling argument. I like Mass Effect and will want to experience any new content. Your attitude is a bit selfish.

I oppose BioWare wasting resources making ME2 cameos a little better. Lair of the Shadow Broker worked well with Liara, but i don't think that any of the ME2 characters are in a position to have a profound enough effect on the story to make it worth while. I'd rather BioWare focus on interesting new ideas, like the Leviathan of Dis.

[Moira-chan]

you can make different pt, you can make 2 one save thane one not, but the genophage could be cured and even our medical system now could have save him, but not in 23. centuary? and they don't have any blood conversation for drells?

[Julia_xo]

gmboy902 wrote...

blacqout wrote...

LoonySpectre wrote...

@gmboy: Thane is the only squadmate (except Legion, but that's a different case) who's destined to die regardless of any Shepard's choices and actions. And the only squadmate in the entire game who can actually die offscreen. Compare to, say, Jacob, who survives no matter what and even dumps romanced Shepard in the process.

What about Morinth?

Pssh. Who cares about Morinth.

Anyways, there's a difference between saying "your choices affect the outcome" and "you can choose whatever happens in the story". There has to be limits. On a broad scale, you can't choose to train mutant butterflies to intercept the Reapers and stop the invasion in its tracks. On a smaller scale, you can't choose whether some characters live or die. While the "keep this, sacrifice this" choices are certainly intriguing, I feel like sometimes it is good for BioWare to smack us in the face and say "no, sorry if you liked Thane, but he's going to die now", because it reminds us that some things just aren't within our control to change. We can't buy our way out of Thane's death like we could buy our way out of EDI's by not picking Destroy. And to be quite honest, his death is quite the same as Legion's. Sure, an onscreen death would be better from a narration perspective, but both of them died doing something entirely meaningful. If anything, Legion's death was just as forced.

I like things like Thane's death, or how Tali somewhat unexpectedly commits suicide if you let her fleet die. It reminds us that, despite the fact that our choices do matter, there are some things entirely beyond our control. And in a war with giant robot death gods, there has to be some things out of your control.

Thane's death is stupid because he had an option available to him to extend his life (the lung transplant) yet it was ignored and never mentioned again in ME3. If Thane was romanced and reconciled with his son he was NOT at peace with dying and was in fact afraid. In that scenario he should have done all he could to stay alive - like undergoing the lung transplant.

Instead it feels like they ignored his character development and options, in favor of FORCING a single outcome on everyone regardless of how we interacted with him. That's not good writing.

If you want more deaths in your game you can do that. Ignore Grissom Academy and let Jack get phantomed, don't give Miranda Alliance intel and let Kai Leng kill her, let Samara shoot herself, etc. You have plenty of opportunities for character death if you want it.

I don't appreciate it being forced on me. Forced deaths also take away from the replayability of the game.

[blacqout]

Most normal people don't actively look for ways to ensure the tragic demise of their friends.

Also, BioWare are not obliged to follow through on every hint and easter egg they include in their games. Transplants don't always work, and simply not wanting to die doesn't mean you'll live.

BioWare have had to do it in the past, and i hope they'll do it again. Sometimes they need to force character deaths on the player. If you don't want to see anyone die, maybe stop playing games about war.

Modifié par blacqout, 30 juin 2012 - 07:27 .

[English Cooper]

Again new storylines that include existing characters are not impossible to create.. For example, Any new storyline that had a Cerberus theme could easily be written to involve Miranda or Jacob.. ect ect.

Simply becuase they would include an already established character does not mean it needs to be ALL about that character.. just like Lair of the Shadow Broker wasn't ALL about Liara.. (many other characters introduced AND the ability to follow up on a friendship or romantic relationship with Liara) that seems to be what these people are asking for.

[Julia_xo]

blacqout wrote...

Most normal people don't actively look for ways to ensure the tragic demise of their friends.

Also, BioWare are not obliged to follow through on every hint and easter egg they include in their games. Transplants don't always work, and simply not wanting to die doesn't mean you'll live.

BioWare have had to do it in the past, and i hope they'll do it again. Sometimes they need to force character deaths on the player. If you don't want to see anyone die, maybe stop playing games about war.

Shepard's not omnipotent. He/She has no clue Jack is at Grissom and not going there would result in her becoming a Phantom. There's also no way of knowing Shepard refusing Miranda will result in her being killed unless you're metagaming.

I'll bring in another example: Mordin

He can live or die but most people let him die to cure the Genophage. Just because a character can live doesn't mean you have to choose that option. That's where the choice comes in and I think it's extremely unfair of other players to want to take choices away from others just to satisfy their own wants.

Also, BioWare have never forced the death of a LOVE INTEREST, that I am aware. I don't think that's fair that they've done it now especially since they had to trash Thane's romance arc to do it. And yes, lung transplants don't always work but he didn't even try. The option was presented then ignored as if it never existed which to be plain is BS.

Modifié par Julia_xo, 30 juin 2012 - 07:39 .

[wildannie]

blacqout wrote...

Most normal people don't actively look for ways to ensure the tragic demise of their friends.

Also, BioWare are not obliged to follow through on every hint and easter egg they include in their games. Transplants don't always work, and simply not wanting to die doesn't mean you'll live.

BioWare have had to do it in the past, and i hope they'll do it again. Sometimes they need to force character deaths on the player. If you don't want to see anyone die, maybe stop playing games about war.

You're over simplifying this,  a choice to save Thane could have been at the cost of Jack for example.  For me that would have been a real choice because I really like Jack so I would definitely have replayed with a single or Kaidan LI shep and saved Jack at the cost of Thane at least once.  A death is still forced, but who died would be down to the player.  I don't think such a choice should have been clearly noted either meaning that on a first pt a player could actually make the 'wrong' choice for them.

Bioware are not obliged to do anything but as far as I'm concerned they should have had the decency to honour the character development and stories from ME2, and the decency to not blatently troll fans.  I'm sure ME3 has done well finanically, it was the most anticipated game but I'm also think they lost more fans than the gained because they did not deliver on the promises of their marketing and the promise of the previous installments.

[blacqout]

Julia_xo wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Most normal people don't actively look for ways to ensure the tragic demise of their friends.

Also, BioWare are not obliged to follow through on every hint and easter egg they include in their games. Transplants don't always work, and simply not wanting to die doesn't mean you'll live.

BioWare have had to do it in the past, and i hope they'll do it again. Sometimes they need to force character deaths on the player. If you don't want to see anyone die, maybe stop playing games about war.

Shepard's not omnipotent. He/She has no clue Jack is at Grissom and not going there would result in her becoming a Phantom. There's also no way of knowing Shepard refusing Miranda will result in her being killed unless you're metagaming.

I'll bring in another example: Mordin

He can live or die but most people let him die to cure the Genophage. Just because a character can live doesn't mean you have to choose that option. That's where the choice comes in and I think it's extremely unfair of other players to want to take choices away from others just to satisfy their own wants.

Also, BioWare have never forced the death of a LOVE INTEREST, that I am aware. I don't think that's fair that they've done it now especially since they had to trash his romance arc to do it. And yes, lung transplants don't always work but he didn't even try. The option was presented then ignored as if it never existed which to be plain is BS.

I played ME3 with no prior knowledge of the game whatsoever, but Miranda and Jack were saved anyway. I think that i'd have quite liked seeing Jack as a phantom, but alas, it wasn't to be. 

It's nice for games to have a variety. Some deaths that can be completely avoided, some that can only be done so with great effort or sacrifice, and some that are forced. I never play Mass Effect as if i'm just watching it from afar. I like to put myself in Shepard's shoes and act as i would, and i'd save all of my friends. There should be forced deaths in these sorts of games, otherwise some of us wouldn't experience any tragedy in our games at all. 

I think that you're acting with far more selfishness, to be honest. Because you can't handle sadness, it should be removed entirely.

[blacqout]

wildannie wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Most normal people don't actively look for ways to ensure the tragic demise of their friends.

Also, BioWare are not obliged to follow through on every hint and easter egg they include in their games. Transplants don't always work, and simply not wanting to die doesn't mean you'll live.

BioWare have had to do it in the past, and i hope they'll do it again. Sometimes they need to force character deaths on the player. If you don't want to see anyone die, maybe stop playing games about war.

You're over simplifying this,  a choice to save Thane could have been at the cost of Jack for example.  For me that would have been a real choice because I really like Jack so I would definitely have replayed with a single or Kaidan LI shep and saved Jack at the cost of Thane at least once.  A death is still forced, but who died would be down to the player.  I don't think such a choice should have been clearly noted either meaning that on a first pt a player could actually make the 'wrong' choice for them.

Bioware are not obliged to do anything but as far as I'm concerned they should have had the decency to honour the character development and stories from ME2, and the decency to not blatently troll fans.  I'm sure ME3 has done well finanically, it was the most anticipated game but I'm also think they lost more fans than the gained because they did not deliver on the promises of their marketing and the promise of the previous installments.

Nah, personally i think it's nice that Shepard isn't portrayed as being the master of everyone's fate. Some things need to happen that are outside of his control.

In the dossier, it notes that Thane refused the offer. 

[icynova]

I like thane and all, but was ok with the way he went. Made killing Kai Leng all the sweeter.

I'd be ok with controlling a pre-ME2-era Thane though, at the top of his game. Would be sweet.

[Julia_xo]

blacqout wrote...

Julia_xo wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Most normal people don't actively look for ways to ensure the tragic demise of their friends.

Also, BioWare are not obliged to follow through on every hint and easter egg they include in their games. Transplants don't always work, and simply not wanting to die doesn't mean you'll live.

BioWare have had to do it in the past, and i hope they'll do it again. Sometimes they need to force character deaths on the player. If you don't want to see anyone die, maybe stop playing games about war.

Shepard's not omnipotent. He/She has no clue Jack is at Grissom and not going there would result in her becoming a Phantom. There's also no way of knowing Shepard refusing Miranda will result in her being killed unless you're metagaming.

I'll bring in another example: Mordin

He can live or die but most people let him die to cure the Genophage. Just because a character can live doesn't mean you have to choose that option. That's where the choice comes in and I think it's extremely unfair of other players to want to take choices away from others just to satisfy their own wants.

Also, BioWare have never forced the death of a LOVE INTEREST, that I am aware. I don't think that's fair that they've done it now especially since they had to trash his romance arc to do it. And yes, lung transplants don't always work but he didn't even try. The option was presented then ignored as if it never existed which to be plain is BS.

I played ME3 with no prior knowledge of the game whatsoever, but Miranda and Jack were saved anyway. I think that i'd have quite liked seeing Jack as a phantom, but alas, it wasn't to be. 

It's nice for games to have a variety. Some deaths that can be completely avoided, some that can only be done so with great effort or sacrifice, and some that are forced. I never play Mass Effect as if i'm just watching it from afar. I like to put myself in Shepard's shoes and act as i would, and i'd save all of my friends. There should be forced deaths in these sorts of games, otherwise some of us wouldn't experience any tragedy in our games at all. 

I think that you're acting with far more selfishness, to be honest. Because you can't handle sadness, it should be removed entirely.

Wow. So I'm selfish for wanting a coherent story, character consistency and the choice of who to romance to be honored? Nice. Thanks for enlightening me.

It's not just the fact that Thane dies that is the problem here or that "I can't handle sadness". The problem is that BioWare failed to account for Thane's character development from the previous game. They ignored it to suit their forced outcome and that is unacceptable to me.

[blacqout]

You are very welcome.

If your problem isn't that Thane dies, you should probably refrain from going on about it so much. If you're being honest when you say that you can handle Thane's forced death, but just wish that he had been written a little better in M3, then i agree.

That doesn't warrant a DLC though. Also, Thane is shown to have rejected the opportunity of a lung transplant. Please stop using that as evidence of your character growth.

[Julia_xo]

It's not my evidence of his character growth it's my evidence that he had an option other than dying of his disease. The evidence of his character growth was the climax of his romance scene in which he comes to Shepard's cabin crying, upset and punching the table because he's not at peace with dying and is afraid. He's no longer at peace so WHY wouldn't he do all he can to stay alive and undergo the transplant?

ME3 doesn't address it at all. We can't ask him about it. Nothing. And it seems he underwent a lobotomy instead since he contradicts himself.

I could have accepted his death if his romance had been acknowledged in a meaningful way. If they had kept his character consistent. If my Shepard could actually tell him she loved him when he died. If he counted for the achievement. However, none of that happened in the game. If they do bother with DLC that includes him at all then I want the choice to save him. I would like the choice but I would also settle for better content.

Modifié par Julia_xo, 30 juin 2012 - 08:24 .

[Renmiri1]

blacqout wrote...

[ snip long WoT ]

I played ME3 with no prior knowledge of the game whatsoever, but Miranda and Jack were saved anyway. I think that i'd have quite liked seeing Jack as a phantom, but alas, it wasn't to be. 

It's nice for games to have a variety. Some deaths that can be completely avoided, some that can only be done so with great effort or sacrifice, and some that are forced. I never play Mass Effect as if i'm just watching it from afar. I like to put myself in Shepard's shoes and act as i would, and i'd save all of my friends. There should be forced deaths in these sorts of games, otherwise some of us wouldn't experience any tragedy in our games at all. 

I think that you're acting with far more selfishness, to be honest. Because you can't handle sadness, it should be removed entirely.

Aha!

Now I get you. You don't have the sense of loss we have because your first game on the ME3 universe was ME3.

I am also new to ME but unlike you, the day I bought ME3 I also bought ME2 and the little DLC that summarized ME1 and played those first. As a fan of good writing and good RPGs I knew that playing just "chapter 3" would make me have a very narrow minded view of the universe.

I am glad I did, the previous games are much better written, and are among the best RPGs I have ever played. 

I can see now why you want new content, and why you cling to a Bioware Easter Egg like the little hints at a Leviathan of Dis dialogs. Like any other ME player in history, you enjoyed the universe and story and want more. And you see us ME2 / ME1 fans as a barrier for you to get more.

My recommmendation for you is to get Genesis and play Mass Effect 2. If you liked Mass Effect 3, ME2 will completely blow you away. Trust me, if you like well written creative stories, don't deny yourself that experience. And is something to do while waiting for the new SP content.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 30 juin 2012 - 08:37 .

[Emeraldfern]

Well I support this.

Throwing Thane away for the sake of drama didn't sit well with me.
Nor did the complete disregard for the character development he underwent in Mass Effect 2.

And quite frankly if the base of a character's creation is to be a "LI for females that is alien yet attractive" then that tells me that they wanted to give a little something to female fans.

And then they even *gasp* support a fan initiative regarding Thane's fate. I personally didn't think it was that farfetched that Thane living/dying would be left up to the player.

And then come Mass Effect 3, the very demographic that they targeted when they created the character in the first place is apparantely ignored.

Nice/sarcasm

[Renmiri1]

That was downright cruel. I'm glad I wasn't here for that bit, I can imagine how much it must have hurt

[TrveOmegaSlayer]

I would love a DLC for every ME2 squadmate.