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[Steel Dancer]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

I thought Thane's death was very well done, particularly the scene with his son reading from the prayer book and the fact that the prayer was for Shep.

Look, we knew Thane had one foot in the grave from the first time we met him in ME2. If you romanced him, you did so knowing he had an incurable, fatal illness. He tells us in ME3 when we see him that he is not what he once was and never well be. He is death is just around the corner before the Cerberus coup attempt. So to complain he dies in ME3 seems odd to me, since off all the ME2 squadies, we KNEW he was going to die. It makes romancing him all the more poignant I guess.

I guess they could have added something if he was your romance, but to change his death or even have him live to the end of the game? No. Leave it as is.

Something I absolutely and simply do not understand: why are people so opposed to the mere option of Thane surviving in someone else's playthrough?

It's somewhat  comparable to saying that if you killed Wrex* in your playthrough then he should be dead in all playthroughs.







*If you did you're a monster regardless.

[Aello89]

Perhaps some of you might actually stop and consider that some Thanemancers and Thane fans simply with a little more content, a little more less "butchered" Thane if he was romanced in Mass effect 2. I'll probably annoy this thread with a wall of text about it later.  NOTE: this post really is more about romanced Thane issues that perhaps present the biggest disappointment for Thane fans.
But yes a story DLC would be a great thing, something that allowes all players to enjoy while it also addresses some of the key problems that those who romanced him pointed out.


What makes me utterly devastated (pretty much losing all hope there is) are the quotes of Dr. Ray Muzyka and few other employees related to Mass effect fans making “suggestions” and trying to “ force” a change. EC proved that Bioware gave in. Fans were mostly sated. But as we could see ourselves not everybody got what they wished. After EC came out I remember reading posts from McElory (game designer) who launched a ranging attack towards Mass effect fans saying something in the lines that Bioware was sacrificing any modicum of artistic integrity it had for a bunch of angry nerds. He continued that fans only showed total disrespect and destruction of the artistic integrity of gaming’s best. Apparently to his tastes Bioware already puts fans service ahead of all other narrative momentum and believability.
Now Dr. Ray Muzyka expressed how proud he of the ME3 team. He should be, of course but all this leaves a sour taste in my mouth. He also wrote on his blog that it’s incredibly painful to receive feedback from core fans that the game’s endings or content surrounding characters were not up to their expectations.

Truth is and I have come to terms of it is that I have nothing against Thane dying ( but I don't oppose an option to save him). It's lack of respect towards his romance arc that makes me slam my head into the table and sob quietly. It's lack that our decision that, if I might mention was created for the gamers, for fans, is completely irrelevant in the end. Giving a decision to romance Thane and thus see a new unexpected and surprising development of his character was in the end nothing more then “trivializing their own idea, their own decision” and in the end their own character.

Note, that with decision I simply mean realizing that who Thane was supposed to be when romanced was trivialized. His death didn't destroy the character, but the way he was written for those who romanced him, without a doubt was.
It is strange such a thing did happen, since its designers and writers highlight player choice as the game’s core value. Mac Walters was always putting one question above all else “ who is my Shepard?”, thus implying that gamers, fans choices do matter and create a sense that we can mold Shepard as a character and her/his to a certain extend. Sad thing is that Mass effect is still a rather limiting game – for which Bioware has limited budget.
Never the less, with the way they treated ME2 LI in general, as a whole package, is something that again (ironically) trivializes their “game's” core value – choices. (Same could be said for other elements of the game but that's for another time and another thread).

Strangely I had nothing against the endings. Nothing against the so called shocking irrelevance of Commander Shepard’s life following her or his death. Death itself is part of life and we eventually get to accepting it. It was their vision, artistic integrity and I have come to respect that. But in terms of ME2 character in ME3, especially Thane's romance arc that should have continued and be acknowledged in Mass effect 3, I was (we were) justly disappointed over the shocking irrelevance of Thane romance, irrelevance of decision I made to romance him. The irrelevance of who is when romanced, irrelevance of trying to understand that.

Bioware should understand that Thane death is perhaps being largely accepted. But his life, his treatment before that isn't. Especially in terms of romanced Thane. And as I see it, this is probably the only true reason why so many Thanemancers are on their feet and trying to voice their opinion about it. More then being a nuisance, Bioware should be honored that people are so eager about their games and characters. Honored that they do not forget about them. This is not about trying to diminish their artistic integrity, not about changing death, but rather making life before it relevant.

Which is sadly not true of romanced Thane as we see it in Mass effect 3.
But I understand those who like his part in Mass effect 3. I was happy about it in my playthrough where I only friend-manced him too, you know.

Modifié par Aello89, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:28 .

[RShara]

The Angry One wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I find myself wondering if some people would be so insistent on set deaths if it was Miranda who was the one who is unavoidably killed.

To be fair, he does mention he will die soon the second you meet him. At least he went out like a hero, imagine anyone who romanced Jacob/.....

And if you romance him, he says he has something to live for again and will do everything he can to do it.
Therefore it's really a slap in the face to Thanemancers where Thane is once again accepting of his death in ME3 and basically dies due to his illness (because Kai Leng is so incompetent he can't even properly kill a man who can't breathe well)..

Completely and utterly true The Angry One!

[PsyrenY]

Steel Dancer wrote...

Something I absolutely and simply do not understand: why are people so opposed to the mere option of Thane surviving in someone else's playthrough?

It's somewhat  comparable to saying that if you killed Wrex* in your playthrough then he should be dead in all playthroughs.

Because it renders the decision to give him a terminal illness in the first place meaningless. How can you still not understand it after Tully explained it so well?

To wit:

TullyAckland wrote...

Player choice is important, but we also believe those choices are only meaningful when part of a storyline that bears some reality or truth. With Thane, the player faced the experience of developing a bond with a character that had a terminal disease. We felt it would have trivialized Thane’s experience, and the value of that kind of storyline, if the player was able to simply “solve” his problem and let him live happily ever after.

Real people in similar relationships (cancer patients, AIDS victims - note I didn't say HIV - MS victims etc.) don't have a "magic cure" option. They have to do what Shepard did: enjoy any time with their loved one that they're given, then work through the loss afterward as life goes on.

Now in Thane's case I agree that they could have done a better job with the actual romance, the parts before his death. But the death itself was well-done. (Though a kiss goodbye or some other unique events for romanced Sheps would have been welcome.)

Now I can already hear you say "I don't play videogames to deal with real situations. I want an option to win." To which I can only say that Bioware games are not like that, and you may be better off looking elsewhere if winning is all you want.

And Wrex is a poor analogy as he was never terminally ill.

[RShara]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Steel Dancer wrote...

Something I absolutely and simply do not understand: why are people so opposed to the mere option of Thane surviving in someone else's playthrough?

It's somewhat  comparable to saying that if you killed Wrex* in your playthrough then he should be dead in all playthroughs.

Because it renders the decision to give him a terminal illness in the first place meaningless. How can you still not understand it after Tully explained it so well?

To wit:

TullyAckland wrote...

Player choice is important, but we also believe those choices are only meaningful when part of a storyline that bears some reality or truth. With Thane, the player faced the experience of developing a bond with a character that had a terminal disease. We felt it would have trivialized Thane’s experience, and the value of that kind of storyline, if the player was able to simply “solve” his problem and let him live happily ever after.

Real people in similar relationships (cancer patients, AIDS victims - note I didn't say HIV - MS victims etc.) don't have a "magic cure" option. They have to do what Shepard did: enjoy any time with their loved one that they're given, then work through the loss afterward as life goes on.

Now in Thane's case I agree that they could have done a better job with the actual romance, the parts before his death. But the death itself was well-done. (Though a kiss goodbye or some other unique events for romanced Sheps would have been welcome.)

Now I can already hear you say "I don't play videogames to deal with real situations. I want an option to win." To which I can only say that Bioware games are not like that, and you may be better off looking elsewhere if winning is all you want.

And Wrex is a poor analogy as he was never terminally ill.

Moira-chan wrote...

let me give you some example of how
you miss one point. I will take tali as it. She could have died even in
mass effect because of her weak immun system. she never got in contact
with any bacterial or viren, so when she's connecting her suit with
shepard it would causes her death. she risked her life to have a romance
night with you. if a body was never in contact with microorganism there
are no anitbodies within the blood so that at leat, as tali always
said, the smallest contact with bacteria would causes her death, but she
did not died, because maybe she want to or at least because it's a science fiction

[Moira-chan]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Steel Dancer wrote...

Something I absolutely and simply do not understand: why are people so opposed to the mere option of Thane surviving in someone else's playthrough?

It's somewhat  comparable to saying that if you killed Wrex* in your playthrough then he should be dead in all playthroughs.

Because it renders the decision to give him a terminal illness in the first place meaningless. How can you still not understand it after Tully explained it so well?

To wit:

TullyAckland wrote...

Player choice is important, but we also believe those choices are only meaningful when part of a storyline that bears some reality or truth. With Thane, the player faced the experience of developing a bond with a character that had a terminal disease. We felt it would have trivialized Thane’s experience, and the value of that kind of storyline, if the player was able to simply “solve” his problem and let him live happily ever after.

Real people in similar relationships (cancer patients, AIDS victims - note I didn't say HIV - MS victims etc.) don't have a "magic cure" option. They have to do what Shepard did: enjoy any time with their loved one that they're given, then work through the loss afterward as life goes on.

Now in Thane's case I agree that they could have done a better job with the actual romance, the parts before his death. But the death itself was well-done. (Though a kiss goodbye or some other unique events for romanced Sheps would have been welcome.)

Now I can already hear you say "I don't play videogames to deal with real situations. I want an option to win." To which I can only say that Bioware games are not like that, and you may be better off looking elsewhere if winning is all you want.

And Wrex is a poor analogy as he was never terminally ill.

pleae read what i've posted just one page before. is it so difficult? i explain that thane could have been sve right now whithout any problems! but in the future it's a problem while shepard survived being brain dead? where tali survived of being in contact  with microorganism that normally will kill her immediatly, where garrus is saved of being shoot in his face several times?

Modifié par Moira-chan, 05 juillet 2012 - 05:55 .

[RShara]

Optimystic_X wrote...
Real people in similar relationships (cancer patients, AIDS victims - note I didn't say HIV - MS victims etc.) don't have a "magic cure" option

You might compare Tali to someone who has advanced HIV or AIDS (low or non-existent immune system) yet she's fine after taking off her mask in several non-clean-room environments.

Modifié par RShara, 05 juillet 2012 - 05:15 .

[Emeraldfern]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Steel Dancer wrote...

Something I absolutely and simply do not understand: why are people so opposed to the mere option of Thane surviving in someone else's playthrough?

It's somewhat  comparable to saying that if you killed Wrex* in your playthrough then he should be dead in all playthroughs.

Because it renders the decision to give him a terminal illness in the first place meaningless. How can you still not understand it after Tully explained it so well?

To wit:

TullyAckland wrote...

Player choice is important, but we also believe those choices are only meaningful when part of a storyline that bears some reality or truth. With Thane, the player faced the experience of developing a bond with a character that had a terminal disease. We felt it would have trivialized Thane’s experience, and the value of that kind of storyline, if the player was able to simply “solve” his problem and let him live happily ever after.

Real people in similar relationships (cancer patients, AIDS victims - note I didn't say HIV - MS victims etc.) don't have a "magic cure" option. They have to do what Shepard did: enjoy any time with their loved one that they're given, then work through the loss afterward as life goes on.

Now in Thane's case I agree that they could have done a better job with the actual romance, the parts before his death. But the death itself was well-done. (Though a kiss goodbye or some other unique events for romanced Sheps would have been welcome.)

Now I can already hear you say "I don't play videogames to deal with real situations. I want an option to win." To which I can only say that Bioware games are not like that, and you may be better off looking elsewhere if winning is all you want.

And Wrex is a poor analogy as he was never terminally ill.

And to be frank from my own perspective,  survival from an illness can be just as much as emotional as death, and in fact not at all "trivial" as some think. Copy pasting a post from another thread to show what I mean:

Emeraldfern wrote...

I have to add that I'm personally not on-board with the "if he lived it would detract from his character/ romance"

My mother had a stroke ten years ago. Seeing her struggle to survive was very emotional.
And seeing her adapt to the handicaps she got due to the stroke was also very emotional.

She went from defining her personalty with her handicap, which naturally, was something the close of kin didn't think (myself included) she should.

We love her irregardless of what physical inhibitions she has.

And ten years later she finally stopped defining herself by her handicaps.
She embraced living again. I can't iterate how happy I was to see that change in her.
The struggles she and those who love her faced was nothing short of an emotional roller-coaster.

There has not been a day in my life that I'm not grateful for whatever cosmic-force et al. that allowed her to live and be with us.

Point is, we carry survival with us just as much as we carry death with us.

And saying that survival isn't as emotional as death, is, from my own perspective, not true at all.

My mother doesn't have a magical cure for her handicaps , she's going to have to adapt to them for the rest of her life. That is something she and those of us who are close to her, are living with every day.
And as I stated in the quoted post, I can personally attest that going through a survival is just as emotional as death.

Modifié par Emeraldfern, 05 juillet 2012 - 06:00 .

[Steel Dancer]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Steel Dancer wrote...

Something I absolutely and simply do not understand: why are people so opposed to the mere option of Thane surviving in someone else's playthrough?

It's somewhat  comparable to saying that if you killed Wrex* in your playthrough then he should be dead in all playthroughs.

Because it renders the decision to give him a terminal illness in the first place meaningless. How can you still not understand it after Tully explained it so well?

To wit:

TullyAckland wrote...

Player choice is important, but we also believe those choices are only meaningful when part of a storyline that bears some reality or truth. With Thane, the player faced the experience of developing a bond with a character that had a terminal disease. We felt it would have trivialized Thane’s experience, and the value of that kind of storyline, if the player was able to simply “solve” his problem and let him live happily ever after.

Real people in similar relationships (cancer patients, AIDS victims - note I didn't say HIV - MS victims etc.) don't have a "magic cure" option. They have to do what Shepard did: enjoy any time with their loved one that they're given, then work through the loss afterward as life goes on.

Now in Thane's case I agree that they could have done a better job with the actual romance, the parts before his death. But the death itself was well-done. (Though a kiss goodbye or some other unique events for romanced Sheps would have been welcome.)

Now I can already hear you say "I don't play videogames to deal with real situations. I want an option to win." To which I can only say that Bioware games are not like that, and you may be better off looking elsewhere if winning is all you want.

And Wrex is a poor analogy as he was never terminally ill.

Thane didn't die from a disease.

He died because of a poorly written fight against an utter moron in which absurd things happened. Such as Shepard doing absolutely nothing whatsoever.

If he'd died from the disease and that had been written correctly and intelligently then there'd be a lot less of a problem.

[Renmiri1]

Moira spent a long time using her biologist background explaining why Thane can be saved RIGHT NOW on today's RL world. To pretend he is utterly incurable in a sci-fi adventure that has resurrected people from the dead and cured a centuries long GENETICAL modification with a mist spray is beyond preposterous.

You liked the cheap thrill of having a revenge motive, a "big loss" to fuel you forward when you face Kai Lame. Good for you. But it is not a good plot device, it has been done countless times, pretty much every cute kid in the beginning of a "citizen justicer" movie goes through the same death. It is a cookie cutter standard issue "angst fuel" foir the hero to go on fighting.

ME2 writers could write better than that. And we got used to ME being well written. We just want the OPTION of a better written arch for ME3.

[M. Hanky]

but regardless of how you feel, it was still established from the very begining that thane was dying, establishing that any romance with him has a high probability of ending in tragedy. as far as the hope for a cure thing goes, there was none implied. with your refference to the genophage, a hope for a cure has been implied since near the begining of ME1. regardless of whether or not we think they should be able to make a cure for this disease, from a story/writer standpoint it was obviously never intended or even hinted at as a possibility.

[jumpingkaede]

Steel Dancer wrote...

Thane didn't die from a disease.

He died because of a poorly written fight against an utter moron in which absurd things happened. Such as Shepard doing absolutely nothing whatsoever.

If he'd died from the disease and that had been written correctly and intelligently then there'd be a lot less of a problem.

I'm not a Thanemancer but as I like Thane, I would rather him die fighting to help Shepard rather than dying in a hospital bed of a coughing fit choking on his own blood (or however one dies of that).

Thane's death was a fitting death conceptually portrayed in a poor way against an incompetent villain.  Imagine if Kai Leng had been a real threat?  And they didn't just have an awkward Matrix standoff for no reason but instead Thane's death actually buys Shepard the opportunity to defeat Kai Leng and save the Councilor?

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 05 juillet 2012 - 08:19 .

[RShara]

M. Hanky: I'm sorry, but a cure was implied for Thane multiple times.

1. There was no cure, despite CDN mention of Medigel for the lungs, the hanar cure, and Thane's transplant candidacy, mentioned in ME2 and Lair of the Shadow Broker:
Yes, he was ill. We know this. Yes, it was possible he would die. We know this too. HOWEVER, Bioware hinted at several different things that could have extended Thane's life. CDN mentioned medigel for the lungs. The hanar are working on a cure. Thane is eligible for a transplant that would extend his life.
The initial Thane that you meet has turned down a transplant. However, a romanced Thane no longer wants to die. It is NOT implausible that a romanced Thane could be talked into a transplant that would extend his life long enough for a cure to be available.
Thane was never "destined" to die. The writers in ME2 said they weren't sure where they were going to take the character. He could have been cured or not at that point.
Bioware featured several "Cure Thane" movements and used his image as the poster boy for some of the ME3 promotionals.
In the leaked script, there were several options where Thane takes a bullet during the Coup, to stop Udina. In one of the options, he pulls off "A slick move" and stops Udina, and just looks "out of breath."

And other examples of retconning: Wrex was proud of what the genophage made of his people and didn't want it cured. Mordin stated it would still take years to finish a cure.
Tali has almost no immune system. Suit punctures are bad enough that they could kill the quarian in question. Yet she takes off her suit and gets intimate with Shepard, and just gets a sinus infection.
Keiji........yeah.

[jumpingkaede]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Moira spent a long time using her biologist background explaining why Thane can be saved RIGHT NOW on today's RL world. To pretend he is utterly incurable in a sci-fi adventure that has resurrected people from the dead and cured a centuries long GENETICAL modification with a mist spray is beyond preposterous.

1.  It really doesn't matter if Thane can be saved right now in today's RL world when it's established in the Mass Effect universe that there is no cure.

2.  Seeing as how the Genophage was created in a lab and distributed via a mist spray, it's just as plausible that it can be cured with a lab-developed mist spray.  What one can create one can unmake and so forth.  Questioning the original Genophage is fair game but doesn't change 1. above.

[M. Hanky]

SeraphSkye wrote...

I don't get it, the guy is terminally ill, we all know this frmo the get-go. He already lived way beyond his projected lifespan according to the doctors, months have passed since ME2 and the start of ME3. The guy died protecting what he believed in and came to Shepard's aid when it mattered.

Thane's bittersweet chapter was closed, and I loved the way they did it.

this. very well put. the only thing i'd change is making more of the dialogue different if you romanced him and maybe having some people refference his death after. as for Kai Leng being a stupid villain and whatnot... sorry, I liked Kai Leng as a villain. are you sure you're not just saying that out of bitterness that Thane was killed by him?

[RShara]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Moira spent a long time using her biologist background explaining why Thane can be saved RIGHT NOW on today's RL world. To pretend he is utterly incurable in a sci-fi adventure that has resurrected people from the dead and cured a centuries long GENETICAL modification with a mist spray is beyond preposterous.

1.  It really doesn't matter if Thane can be saved right now in today's RL world when it's established in the Mass Effect universe that there is no cure.

2.  Seeing as how the Genophage was created in a lab and distributed via a mist spray, it's just as plausible that it can be cured with a lab-developed mist spray.  What one can create one can unmake and so forth.  Questioning the original Genophage is fair game but doesn't change 1. above.

Yes it DOES matter because if Thane can be saved with technology available now, there's absolutely no reason why they can't use BETTER technology to save him in the future. To pretend he is utterly incurable in a sci-fi adventure that has resurrected people from the dead and cured a centuries long GENETICAL modification with a mist spray is beyond preposterous

You can see my posts above for other and worse examples of retconning.  It wouldn't even need a retconn for Thane like those other things.

Modifié par RShara, 05 juillet 2012 - 08:25 .

[M. Hanky]

RShara wrote...

M. Hanky: I'm sorry, but a cure was implied for Thane multiple times.

1. There was no cure, despite CDN mention of Medigel for the lungs, the hanar cure, and Thane's transplant candidacy, mentioned in ME2 and Lair of the Shadow Broker:
Yes, he was ill. We know this. Yes, it was possible he would die. We know this too. HOWEVER, Bioware hinted at several different things that could have extended Thane's life. CDN mentioned medigel for the lungs. The hanar are working on a cure. Thane is eligible for a transplant that would extend his life.
The initial Thane that you meet has turned down a transplant. However, a romanced Thane no longer wants to die. It is NOT implausible that a romanced Thane could be talked into a transplant that would extend his life long enough for a cure to be available.
Thane was never "destined" to die. The writers in ME2 said they weren't sure where they were going to take the character. He could have been cured or not at that point.
Bioware featured several "Cure Thane" movements and used his image as the poster boy for some of the ME3 promotionals.
In the leaked script, there were several options where Thane takes a bullet during the Coup, to stop Udina. In one of the options, he pulls off "A slick move" and stops Udina, and just looks "out of breath."

And other examples of retconning: Wrex was proud of what the genophage made of his people and didn't want it cured. Mordin stated it would still take years to finish a cure.
Tali has almost no immune system. Suit punctures are bad enough that they could kill the quarian in question. Yet she takes off her suit and gets intimate with Shepard, and just gets a sinus infection.
Keiji........yeah.

everyone retcons in every genre. the lung transplant, if i'm not mistaken, would only delay his death, not actually cure him, and there's a whole world of difference between the genophage not being cured yet simply because NO ONE is looking for a cure, and the Hanar trying, but still failing to make a cure, as an implication that it can be cured anywhere in the near future. Mordin did say it would take years, true, but things changed when he discovered the surviving female from Maelon's experiments.

EDIT: I'd just like to point out, though, that the fanbase should never pay much attention to what bioware says. they almost never actually do everything, or even half, of what they say they will do how they say they'll do it.

Modifié par M. Hanky, 05 juillet 2012 - 08:30 .

[jumpingkaede]

RShara wrote...

*snip in parts*

And other examples of retconning: Wrex was proud of what the genophage made of his people and didn't want it cured.

Wrex?  You sure you aren't thinking of Okeer?  As far as I know Wrex always wanted a cure for the Genophage he was just making plans assuming that it wouldn't happen.

Mordin stated it would still take years to finish a cure.

Since the ME3 cure was based on synthesized tissue from a female Krogan who had developed an immunity, what Mordin says in ME2 isn't directly applicable.

Tali has almost no immune system. Suit punctures are bad enough that they could kill the quarian in question. Yet she takes off her suit and gets intimate with Shepard, and just gets a sinus infection.

Suit punctures alone don't kill a Quarian otherwise Quarians would be dying all the time anytime they have a bad fall and break.  However, the infections that set in afterward can kill a Quarian... and infections are a greater threat when you're out on the battlefield.

Not retconned but hand-waved by saying Tali loaded up with immune system boosters beforehand.  Also same assumption that Tali didn't allow infection to set in (and infections wouldn't since that's the whole purpose of the immune boosters).

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 05 juillet 2012 - 08:30 .

[RShara]

We'd be fine with a lung transplant that would extend his life long enough for the hanar to finish their work on the cure.

Which by the way, is emphasized as, There is no cure YET, but the hanar are working on it. Thane "doubts" that he'll live long enough to receive it. That's not a solid NO CURE.

My point is...there doesn't NEED to be retconning for Thane to live/be cured. The groundwork is there, and would be a very logical extension of what has already been put in place. Yet that was not done, and yet extensive retconning of other characters is a-okay.

[jumpingkaede]

RShara wrote...

Yes it DOES matter because if Thane can be saved with technology available now, there's absolutely no reason why they can't use BETTER technology to save him in the future. To pretend he is utterly incurable in a sci-fi adventure that has resurrected people from the dead and cured a centuries long GENETICAL modification with a mist spray is beyond preposterous

You can see my posts above for other and worse examples of retconning.  It wouldn't even need a retconn for Thane like those other things.

Point of fact, there has only been a single "resurrection" and since Shepard's brain is completely his he is more like a cyborg than anything else.

The Genophage was already explained above.  

Really no sense arguing this though since it's a work of fiction.  If the author says something goes, then something goes.  If you want to link me to Moira's post I'd be interested in seeing it but seeing as how Bioware has never divulged (or even knows) precisely how Thane's affliction works...

Perhaps it would've been better if Bioware just said Thane was afflicted with Uncureabalitis.  

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 05 juillet 2012 - 08:35 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

I sometimes wish they had kept the original subplot from the first script. At least you could do something there.

[RShara]

jumpingkaede wrote...

RShara wrote...

*snip in parts*

And other examples of retconning: Wrex was proud of what the genophage made of his people and didn't want it cured.

Wrex?  You sure you aren't thinking of Okeer?  As far as I know Wrex always wanted a cure for the Genophage he was just making plans assuming that it wouldn't happen.

Mordin stated it would still take years to finish a cure.

Since the ME3 cure was based on synthesized tissue from a female Krogan who had developed an immunity, what Mordin says in ME2 isn't directly applicable.

Tali has almost no immune system. Suit punctures are bad enough that they could kill the quarian in question. Yet she takes off her suit and gets intimate with Shepard, and just gets a sinus infection.

Suit punctures alone don't kill a Quarian otherwise Quarians would be dying all the time anytime they have a bad fall and break.  However, the infections that set in afterward can kill a Quarian... and infections are a greater threat when you're out on the battlefield.

Not retconned but hand-waved by saying Tali loaded up with immune system boosters beforehand.  Also same assumption that Tali didn't allow infection to set in (and infections wouldn't since that's the whole purpose of the immune boosters).

Erm....not to violate TOS or anything....but...intimate relations are ummmm....extremely messy.  There's tons of bacteria in the mouth and......other places....not to mention the fluid exchange and...yeah

Quarians on the battlefield and day-to-day can seal off parts of their suits to prevent the spread of contamination so that they don't get infections.  Tali took off her whole suit (I hope O_O) or at least the headpiece and er, the other place that has mucus membranes.

[M. Hanky]

what extensive retconning? there really hasn't been much, if any. the examples you've used so far are ineffectual. they're all either there because you don't seem to fully understand what was going on, or because you're putting too much stock into something that was said about characters before the game was completed. writers change things about their characters all the time before they set it in stone (more or less), you shouldn't call that retconning if it happens before it's realeased, just editing.

[RShara]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Perhaps it would've been better if Bioware just said Thane was afflicted with Uncureabalitis.  

Isn't that what they did?

[Steel Dancer]

M. Hanky wrote...

but regardless of how you feel, it was still established from the very begining that thane was dying, establishing that any romance with him has a high probability of ending in tragedy. as far as the hope for a cure thing goes, there was none implied. with your refference to the genophage, a hope for a cure has been implied since near the begining of ME1. regardless of whether or not we think they should be able to make a cure for this disease, from a story/writer standpoint it was obviously never intended or even hinted at as a possibility.

Incorrect.

Added in the LotSB (iirc) was a background bit about new medigel treatments designed specifically for use on/with the lungs. If that wasn't directly aimed at Thanemancers I don't know what was.

jumpingkaede wrote...
I'm not a Thanemancer but as I like Thane, I would rather him die fighting to help Shepard rather than dying in a hospital bed of a coughing fit choking on his own blood (or however one dies of that).

Thane's death was a fitting death conceptually portrayed in a poor way against an incompetent villain.  Imagine if Kai Leng had been a real threat?  And they didn't just have an awkward Matrix standoff for no reason but instead Thane's death actually buys Shepard the opportunity to defeat Kai Leng and save the Councilor?

It's a point, and I don't doubt a much better written scene/fight with more meaning could have helped matters along with acknowedgement of what had occured within the game itself.

But when it comes right down to it it still wasn't necessary. As I mentioned above BW teased the possibility of a cure: why do that and then go with what happened?

Add that to the frankly dire change in how they portrayed/described Keprals and the negation of the change in attitude a romanced Thane has and... well.


I've posted this elsewhere (may have even been in this thread, losing track. Apologies if so) as a concept of what could have been done to at least provide the possibility of survival in specific playthroughs.

 
Thane Romance Variables:
 
First conversation on the Citadel:
 
If non-romanced:
Mostly plays as is, with retcon of disease removed and “additional complications and secondary infections” put in instead to maintain narrative cohesion.
 
 
If romanced and LotSB not completed:
Mostly plays as is, with retcon of disease removed and ““additional complications and secondary infections” put in instead to maintain narrative cohesion.
 
 
If romanced and LotSB completed:
Mostly plays as is, with retcon of disease removed and a “benefactor who has provided additional, somewhat expensive medical care. These treatments are quite intensive and I would be unable to receive them elsewhere. Fortunately there have been no additional complications to my illness, although I am not what I was.”
 
Liara on-ship conversation option:
“Thane”
“Have you been using your influence to get him medical treatment?”
 
If Liara was NOT romanced: (happily) “Yes, I know how important he is to you, and what kind of friend would I be if I didn’t help?”
 
If Liara WAS romanced: (not happy, not quite meeting Shepards’ eyes) “…Yes. I know how… important he is to you. What kind of… of friend would I be if I didn’t help?”
 
(Possible option for non-LotBS completion, may be unnecessary – if asked about helping Thane, Liara mentions the fight for the SB ship destroyed some data banks, she thinks the files on Shepards crew were in amongst those)
 

 
 

Second later LI only Thane conversation – meal at the presidium commons, all about romance and grants Paramour achievement
 
 
 
Priority: Citadel II
 
Main change with Thane fighting Kai Leng: Shepard orders squad mates to get the Councillor out of the room to safety (better than them standing there like idiots).


Kirrahe will turn up in these if alive. There is no good reason for the salarians not to send him to cover the Councillor (unless the salarian government is in the habit of relying on terminally ill drell to cover their most important politicians?). 
Variable 1.0: Thane non-romanced:
Current scene runs as is with Thane mortally wounded in fight for the Citadel. Shepard gets a few shots in but it's not enough - KLs cloaking/shields/plot armour is too effective.
 
 
Variable 2.0: Romanced Thane; Kirrahe died in ME1: LotSB not completed.
Thane's still mortally wounded in fight after fight scene. Shepard gets a few shots in but it's not enough - KLs cloaking/shields/plot armour is too effective. Improved LI specific conversation pieces at hospital deathbed scene; crew conversations offer condolences via on-ship conversations.
 
Variable 2.5: Romanced Thane; Kirrahe died in ME1: LotSB completed.
Thane's still mortally wounded in fight after a (hopefully) improved fight scene. Shepard gets a few shots in but it's not enough - KLs cloaking/shields/plot armour is too effective. Improved LI specific conversation pieces at hospital deathbed scene; crew offer condolences via on-ship conversations.
 
Variable 3.0: Romanced Thane; Kirrahe lived in ME1: LotSB not completed.
Thane's still mortally wounded in fight scene. Shepard gets a few shots in but it's not enough - KLs cloaking/shields/plot armour is too effective. Kirrahe arrives and fires at KL with the Scorpion shifting the odds in Shepards favour, but just a little too late for Thane… Improved LI specific conversation pieces at hospital deathbed scene; crew conversations offer condolences via on-ship conversations.
 
Variable 3.5: Romanced Thane; Kirrahe lived in ME1: LotSB completed.
Thane fights KL in a (hopefully) improved fight scene. Shepard gets a few shots in but it's not enough - KLs cloaking is too effective. Just as KL is preparing to deliver a lethal blow to Thane, Kirrahe shoots KL in the back with the Scorpion. Explosion knocks KL flying; Thane is staggered but alive. KL decides discretion is the better part of trolling valour and exits, with Shepard (and squad) in hot pursuit.
 
 
For those who absolutely insist on a tragic ending; you could make the “few shots Shepard gets in” paragon/renegade interrupts which, if not taken, still result in Thanes’ death.
 
 
 
Possible follow up email from the salarian Councillor, promising to look into aiding the hanar research into a cure for Keprals Syndrome: not an immediate cure, but hope for the future, post-game. Headcanon gets to come out and play.
 

TL; DR version:
 
For Thane to survive you MUST have had; Thane in a romance; Kirrahe alive; LotSB completed (and possibly some paragon/renegade interrupts made during the fight scene.).
 

Modifié par Steel Dancer, 05 juillet 2012 - 08:47 .