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Now that that's done...Thane DLC?


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#626
wildannie

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@Mr Hanky

The problem for me is that I'm so completely disgusted with the sexual discrimination within ME3 demonstrated by the treatment of two straight LI options for femshep that I have no desire or intention of picking another LI... I liked Kaidan and have my original ME femshep unimported because I don't want to engage in any way with the game after what they did. I have no intention of purchasing any future BW products because I can't trust them to treat female gamers with any respect. Importing choices used to be a pull for me, now it rings alarm bells. I'm not going to invest time and wait years for conclusions to stories that are half assed and insulting...
I'm not here because I'm a fan of BW they lost that in March...I'm here to voice my opinion because I paid money to play the end of a trilogy and they removed choice and dialogue to the point where I can't recognise my Shepards, nor their LI. ME3 doesn't provide a remotely plausible conclusion to the stories I created (within the confines set by BW) in ME 1 and 2 so am left with a forever unfinished trilogy and am extremely pissed off about it.

Modifié par wildannie, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:49 .


#627
M. Hanky

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RShara wrote...

So to reiterate....Thane's death wasn't set in stone since he only doubted that he'd survive long enough for a cure, and with the groundwork laid in ME2, a life extension is not out of the question

And an extension wouldn't trivalize him because you don't un-experience things

And having an option for a cure/life extension wouldn't make anyone else's game any worse.

Yes?


no. still completely disgree with all this. understand why you feel the way you do, but I believe that Thane's death was clearly stated from the start, and that his death was tragic, but neccesary from shep's character development, especially if Thane was a LI. tragedy was one of the recurring themes of ME3, but most of it didn't hit close enough to shepard. this was one of the few ones that did, and ME3 would be cheapened without it.

EDIT: not saying they shouldn't improve thane's dialogue, however.

Modifié par M. Hanky, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:53 .


#628
M. Hanky

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wildannie wrote...

@Mr Hanky

The problem for me is that I'm so completely disgusted with the sexual discrimination within ME3 demonstrated by the treatment of two straight LI options for femshep that I have no desire or intention of picking another LI... I liked Kaidan and have my original ME femshep unimported because I don't want to engage in any way with the game after what they did. I have no intention of purchasing any future BW products because I can't trust them to treat female gamers with any respect. Importing choices used to be a pull for me, now it rings alarm bells. I'm not going to invest time and wait years for conclusions to stories that are half assed and insulting...
I'm not here because I'm a fan of BW they lost that in March...I'm here to voice my opinion because I paid money to play the end of a trilogy and they removed choice and dialogue to the point where I can't recognise my Shepards, nor their LI. ME3 doesn't provide a remotely plausible conclusion to the stories I created (within the confines set by BW) in ME 1 and 2 so am left with a forever unfinished trilogy and am extremely pissed off about it.


I'm with you here... again. I think they could fix that (even though they most likely won't) without saving thane. tragedy has to happen in ME3, and no matter who it is that dies, the fans will flock out to protest he "wrongful" death.

#629
wildannie

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M. Hanky wrote...

RShara wrote...

So to reiterate....Thane's death wasn't set in stone since he only doubted that he'd survive long enough for a cure, and with the groundwork laid in ME2, a life extension is not out of the question

And an extension wouldn't trivalize him because you don't un-experience things

And having an option for a cure/life extension wouldn't make anyone else's game any worse.

Yes?


no. still completely disgree with all this. understand why you feel the way you do, but I believe that Thane's death was clearly stated from the start, and that his death was tragic, but neccesary from shep's character development, especially if Thane was a LI. tragedy was one of the recurring themes of ME3, but most of it didn't hit close enough to shepard. this was one of the few ones that did, and ME3 would be cheapened without it.


You seem to be assuming that Shep is a single static character when shep has different background, experience and outlook depending upon the choices made in ME1 and 2,  when Thane died my shep who had loved him in ME2 didn't give a ***k, and that was totally tragic... in a bad way.

#630
RShara

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....I'm giving up for a while

#631
Renmiri1

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That is just the thing.. I haven't met many people who WANTED to kill Thane. But if you are asked to sacrifice 1 from your crew, who do you pick ?

I would never pick Thane, as a Thanemancer, obviously. But as a Thane "bro" maybe I would, based only on ME3 plot. He is ok with dying, he will be dead soon. Throw him at the Catalyst and get the "Green with red ridges" ending!

But I could never do this to ME2 Thane. There he does not want to die, he just sees no way out and is tired of fighting. On ME2 Thane also says he feels "no guilt" about being an assassin. Yet his Loyalty Mission is to save his son from following his "path of Sin". So the no guilt stuff was also a red herring

So maybe players get a choice of which 3 characters to sacrifice "heroically". That works for me

Modifié par Renmiri1, 05 juillet 2012 - 10:00 .


#632
M. Hanky

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wildannie wrote...

M. Hanky wrote...

RShara wrote...

So to reiterate....Thane's death wasn't set in stone since he only doubted that he'd survive long enough for a cure, and with the groundwork laid in ME2, a life extension is not out of the question

And an extension wouldn't trivalize him because you don't un-experience things

And having an option for a cure/life extension wouldn't make anyone else's game any worse.

Yes?


no. still completely disgree with all this. understand why you feel the way you do, but I believe that Thane's death was clearly stated from the start, and that his death was tragic, but neccesary from shep's character development, especially if Thane was a LI. tragedy was one of the recurring themes of ME3, but most of it didn't hit close enough to shepard. this was one of the few ones that did, and ME3 would be cheapened without it.


You seem to be assuming that Shep is a single static character when shep has different background, experience and outlook depending upon the choices made in ME1 and 2,  when Thane died my shep who had loved him in ME2 didn't give a ***k, and that was totally tragic... in a bad way.


but SOME things are static in EVERY playthrough, as they should be. renegade or not, shep is still a hero with feelings, for instance. that love your shep had for thane shouldn't change whether or not thane dies, as it is in real life. we've all had tragedy in our lives (or at least most of us have) and no matter how much you love someone you can't stop tragedy.

#633
RShara

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Slightly non-sequiter.....Thane is the only LI in the history of all Bioware games ever, to be forced into a death.

Back to zoning out.

#634
wildannie

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M. Hanky wrote...

I'm with you here... again. I think they could fix that (even though they most likely won't) without saving thane. tragedy has to happen in ME3, and no matter who it is that dies, the fans will flock out to protest he "wrongful" death.


Maybe they could but I think it would be too little too late for me, they had one chance to show me how awesome Thane's death could be for my romanced shep and they failed spectacularly.  I favour difficult choices and would have liked those choices to have ensured that not everyone could survive, but I think every character should have been able to survive or die in certain circumstances... no plot armor and no forced death.

Modifié par wildannie, 05 juillet 2012 - 10:05 .


#635
RShara

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"I'm dying." "The hanar are working on a cure but I doubt I will be around to see it." =|= I have incurablitis

And soooooooooooo much of his ME2 storyline was about him waking up and wanting to live, rather than being at peace about dying.

Why would his struggle to be alive again be emphasized so much if all he was going to be good for was to die and be forgotten?

#636
RShara

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Heh it'd have been cool if there'd been a choice to save either Thane or VS (or ME2 LI vs ME1 LI). I'd have been down with that. Then we'd have a choice in the matter.

#637
Renmiri1

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Yup. Mr Hanky would have to chose Ashley for his Sheppard to grow. She was your LI was it not ?

#638
Bluecansam

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M. Hanky wrote...

no. still completely disgree with all this. understand why you feel the way you do, but I believe that Thane's death was clearly stated from the start, and that his death was tragic, but neccesary from shep's character development, especially if Thane was a LI. tragedy was one of the recurring themes of ME3, but most of it didn't hit close enough to shepard. this was one of the few ones that did, and ME3 would be cheapened without it.

EDIT: not saying they shouldn't improve thane's dialogue, however.


But narratively, it's only a tragedy if there is an aftermath to the death. No one reacts to Thane's passing, no one says anything to Shepard or talks to her about her loss. She doesn't grieve or attend a funeral or check in with Thane's son. The only consequence of Thane's death is that Shepard gets to say some vengeful words when she kills Kai Leng. And even then, she could be talking about Miranda or Kirrahe, so there's nothing particularly pivotal in it being Thane specifically who dies. He's just gone, and there's nothing narratively tragic about it.

Likewise, Shepard only has character development if she, you know, develops. But she is utterly unchanged by Thane's death no matter if she romanced him or not. She goes about her business with determination, but it's no more or less than before Thane dies. Rather, she flirts with other potential LIs, even going so far as to check out Kaidan's ass mere moments after leaving Thane's hospital room. His death makes NO impact on Shepard when it should have made all the impact in the world.

Modifié par Bluecansam, 05 juillet 2012 - 10:30 .


#639
Julia_xo

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M. Hanky wrote...

RShara wrote...

So to reiterate....Thane's death wasn't set in stone since he only doubted that he'd survive long enough for a cure, and with the groundwork laid in ME2, a life extension is not out of the question

And an extension wouldn't trivalize him because you don't un-experience things

And having an option for a cure/life extension wouldn't make anyone else's game any worse.

Yes?


no. still completely disgree with all this. understand why you feel the way you do, but I believe that Thane's death was clearly stated from the start, and that his death was tragic, but neccesary from shep's character development, especially if Thane was a LI. tragedy was one of the recurring themes of ME3, but most of it didn't hit close enough to shepard. this was one of the few ones that did, and ME3 would be cheapened without it.

EDIT: not saying they shouldn't improve thane's dialogue, however.


That doesn't make much sense. If you think there should have been more deaths that closely affect Shepard then you have the choice to make that happen in your game. There are quite a few characters that can die over the course of the game. Only difference is the player's choices can influence the fate of those characters. If you choose to save everyone you can save in your game that's your decision. But it doesn't make much sense to say there should have been more deaths when there can be if that's what you really want.

We're supposed to be able to make our own choices and shape our own stories. Random examples: Garrus can be alive in my game and dead in yours. Miranda can be alive in your game and dead in mine. Maybe in your game Mordin sacrificed his life to cure the Genophage but in my game he helped Shepard sabotage the cure and lived on to go and work/help on the Crucible. That's the nature of choice in a game like this. And if you want, you should be able to replay the game and make choices you never have before to experience the game in a slightly different way.

With Thane the choice is taken away completely. That detracts from the game because it takes away from the replayability.

It doesn't help that Thane's death was very sloppily handled. We got bad and inconsistent characterization, very little interaction before his death, a very poorly thought out ninja fight that is a disservice to all characters involved, and a death scene which while adequate for those who didn't romance the character was a complete slap to the face for those who did. There's also no real acknowledgement of his death afterward and the character is promptly forgotten which trivializes his supposed sacrifice.

In short, we all got railroaded into the same outcome regardless of how we interacted with the character. That isn't being true to the character or fair to the player because it makes our previous interactions meaningless. What was the point of waking Thane up from his battlesleep and making him want to live in ME2 if he just forgot about it all in ME3 and behaves like none of it ever happened and nothing we did or experienced had any effect?

#640
DukeOfNukes

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Thane died because he got in the way. He decided his life was over anyways, and that saving the councillor would be one last redeeming act.

It was HIS choice. Don't take away Thanes choice.

I do, however, think you should release DLC for ME1 where Corporal Jenkins and Yaroslev Tartakovsky can live.

#641
RShara

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When did Thane decide his life was over? Oh yeah, he didn't.

Image IPB

#642
BeanieBat

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It's not all about the fact that he died.

#643
Renmiri1

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Just love how people who never bothered talking with the character come here to teach us simple wimin what he was and what he wanted

#644
DukeOfNukes

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ok, obviously I was being too subtle...so let me spell it out.

There are characters and events that happen in the series that you CANNOT change. The universe isn't static, and doesn't sit around and wait for Shepard. You can't stop Thane dying any more than you could have stopped Jenkins from dying, or the Battle of the Citadel.

Thane might not have WANTED to die, but it was HIS decisions and HIS past that put him in a place where he would be killed. You might as well be asking for DLC that will let you recruit anybody you want from the Citadel, and have TIM as a playable teammate.

According to the way the story was told, there was no way that Shepard could have saved Thane.

#645
RShara

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Duke.......try reading over the last 2-3 pages of how we disputed exactly that. Or this thread
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12868447/1

or this one

http://social.biowar...5/index/9749360

#646
Steel Dancer

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DukeOfNukes wrote...

ok, obviously I was being too subtle...so let me spell it out.

There are characters and events that happen in the series that you CANNOT change. The universe isn't static, and doesn't sit around and wait for Shepard. You can't stop Thane dying any more than you could have stopped Jenkins from dying, or the Battle of the Citadel.

Thane might not have WANTED to die, but it was HIS decisions and HIS past that put him in a place where he would be killed. You might as well be asking for DLC that will let you recruit anybody you want from the Citadel, and have TIM as a playable teammate.

According to the way the story was told, there was no way that Shepard could have saved Thane.



Hmm, I have an ingame universe problem with this "unchangeable event".

If Thane isn't around and Kirrahe is still alive, Kirrahe takes his place in preventing the assassination albeit the whole thing's over far faster. Where's Kirrahe if Thane's alive?

Doubt salarians have fortune-tellers or rely on drop-in terminally ill assassins for security needs.

#647
Julia_xo

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DukeOfNukes wrote...

ok, obviously I was being too subtle...so let me spell it out.

There are characters and events that happen in the series that you CANNOT change. The universe isn't static, and doesn't sit around and wait for Shepard. You can't stop Thane dying any more than you could have stopped Jenkins from dying, or the Battle of the Citadel.

Thane might not have WANTED to die, but it was HIS decisions and HIS past that put him in a place where he would be killed. You might as well be asking for DLC that will let you recruit anybody you want from the Citadel, and have TIM as a playable teammate.

According to the way the story was told, there was no way that Shepard could have saved Thane.


How can you compare a character who was at one point a full-fledged squadmate/LI to Jenkins? Smh....

Anyway, if you had actually bothered to read the thread you'd know Thane had an option to extend his life and was eligible for a lung transplant. So no, he never had to die. BioWare were just lazy and negligent.

#648
Renmiri1

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DukeOfNukes wrote...
According to the way the ME3 story was told, there was no way that Shepard could have saved Thane.

Fixed.

Ant that is exactly our problem with it. One of them at least

#649
DukeOfNukes

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Steel...you're right, but that's bad story telling on BioWares part...and it happens from the first time you step on the Citadel on throughout the whole game. If Wrex is dead, Wreav takes his place. If Tali is dead, Xen takes her place. If Jack is dead, Jason Prangley takes her place. If I killed the Rachni Queen, I get a "oh, they were cloned" throwaway dialog.

They were too afraid to create content that not everybody would be able to see. They had a singular story involved in this, and decided to throw in "your choices" in order to placate their fans.

#650
DukeOfNukes

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Renmiri1 wrote...

DukeOfNukes wrote...
According to the way the ME3 story was told, there was no way that Shepard could have saved Thane.

Fixed.

Ant that is exactly our problem with it. One of them at least

Normally I'd agree with you, but nope. As I've already stated, you couldn't save Jenkins. You couldn't stop the Battle for the Citadel. You couldn't stop Horizon from being attacked, or Shepard from dying. If I can't keep myself from dying, why should I be able to save Thane?

If we're using this as an example of shoddy story telling throughout the game, I'm all with you. But you're not...you're saying "I love Thane, so he shouldn't die."

The way Thane could have survived is by staying away from Kai Leng. He chose not to do so, and got killed because of it.