766 réponses à ce sujet

[DukeOfNukes]

Sorry, but I don't think Thane dying/Shepard not being able to save him is a bad decision. I think having Shepard sitting around picking his/her nose while this is going on, is.

[RShara]

Offender_Mullet wrote...

I'm guessing reading the other 29 pages in this thread is pointless.

FbangIncentinveX wrote...

In a game that's all about changing things, Thane shouldn't be forced to go under any circumstances.

Read below.

Jedi31293 wrote...

Why change one of the best deaths in
the game? Thane knew he was going to die ever since we met him in ME2.
There is no reason to change that.

Try reading just a few pages.  Really.

[ollyollyoxenfree]

I wish somebody mentioned Thane upon returning to the Normandy. Especially Garrus who's standing right in front of the memorial wall and talking about how crazy a day it was. Joker comments on all the other cameos but Thane's as well.

[RShara]

DukeOfNukes wrote...

Sorry, but I don't think Thane dying/Shepard not being able to save him is a bad decision. I think having Shepard sitting around picking his/her nose while this is going on, is.

That's great, I respect your opinion.  But please don't try to claim that there is no logical or feasible way for Shepard to save Thane in a variety of ways, nor that those methods are completely out of Shepard's control.

Patently, several methods are within Shepard's control without needing to go into god mode.  No, Shepard can't control the motivations or actions of others.  But when has Shepard ever just let it go without TRYING to change something?

Shepard {can} stops Garrus from shooting Sidonis.
Shepard {can) stops Miranda from shooting her friend (can't remember his name)
Shepard (can) stop the geth and quarians from going to war.
Shepard CAN'T stop her boyfriend from charging a sword.  What?

Modifié par RShara, 06 juillet 2012 - 02:35 .

[English Cooper]

@ Squeegee83

Didn't qoute the post it is lengthy I do have some thoughts on it though.

Most people don't go out and look for love in people who are dying - this is true, however it is possible and does happen that people fall in love with someone who is dying, they go into the relationship knowing full well what they are in for.

Does that mean I think Bioware did a good job with Thane.. NO.. the romance could have been written to really be heartbreaking, it wasn't.. it could have been written to be surprising.. it wasn't

Instead Thane dies and Shepard then proceeds to flirt with anything with a heartbeat.. Traynor, Vega, Alenko.. No "I'm sorry for you loss Shepard." It's all shower scenes and forced flirting.

It was pretty much ignored.. I am on the fence about curing Thane myself I respect the arguements made here but still I am not sure.

What I do fully support is the SAME quality and quantity of Romance oppertunity for Female Shepards and Male Shepards.. Bioware is one of the best game companies when it comes to this front you can't really fault them.. BUT ME 3 is not an example of this.. ME 3 boils down too for Female Shepards.. Garrus, Kaiden.. or Lesbian (And lets get one thing clear... straight women don't generally find this as appealing as men do)

Thane should have had more conversations, his death scene should have been better for romanced Shepards..more personal it wasn't and I would support those things getting a touch up.

[RShara]

English: Thank you so much for reading through what you have and understanding the majority of where we're coming from.

You certainly should make up your own mind about the cure, but thanks for being open minded about WHY we want it.

To be honest, if his romance had been handled correctly in the first place, most of us would have been fine with it. But at this point, and after the rather condescending attitude and downright ignoring from various parties, a lot of us are at the "too little too late" phase, and are getting to the point where nothing less than a cure/life extension would make us stop protesting.

Bioware of course has the right to say, No Changes, but we can always keep asking in a polite, and positive manner.

Modifié par RShara, 06 juillet 2012 - 02:45 .

[Lucky Thirteen]

DukeOfNukes wrote...

RShara wrote...

No one else is saying that Thane's death was impossible.  Just that it was badly written and that it's quite plausible for several methods to save him.

It wasn't badly written. You all just don't want to accept that there are and SHOULD BE things in the story that you (being Shepard) have no control over.

SHOULD have control over:
Joining Cerberus
Contacting old allies
Finding new friends

SHOULD NOT have control over:
Everyone who lives and dies
Other characters decisions

Thane was in the wrong place, at the wrong time...but there's no reason why you should be able to change if he were there or not. As Shepard, you don't control his motivations.

I am a person who would like more situations where Shepard can't control everything. Thane dying is a good example of this.

However, there is no story for Thane in ME3. Nothing leading up to his death, no story arc, no interaction with him, he's just waiting to die. Just sits on his butt and waits. His purpose in ME3 is only to die. Yeah, that prayer rocks, but there is nothing else written well for this character in ME3. He just dies, in a shock value manner that lacks total depth and logic. He's a random red shirt that has a pretty prayer for his death scene.

I had the expectation he would die, not just because that's established
by his illness, but because someone was a jerk and spoiled to me that
he would die no matter what. I went back trying to talk to this character in ME3 anyways, at least a dozen times before the coup. I still expected some kind of cutscene, expected new conversation, expected some story to unfold. He is my favorite character of the series and I expected something out of him before he died.

There is nothing. Thane does nothing.

He reminds you he is sick and dying and there is nothing else. You romance him, you get a couple of kisses in and then afterwords he turns you down for any further private time because he's too sick. He says, let's sit and talk, which would be fantastic to have other conversations in that relationship that aren't sexual related. Apparently there is nothing else, all he wants to talk about is the fact he is dying. Thane is the most pointless character in the entire series now. I don't understand why they bothered to bring him back at all, why they wasted the energy and time into creating this character, hiring a unique voice actor, puting him into advertising for ME2, puting him on the game cover, all of this a waste of time if he was just created to just die.

Can you imagine if they did that to Liara or Tali, you get one conversation out of them, a couple of kisses, and the next time you see them, they die beyond your control. My god, the Tali picture thing was a negative reaction enough, and that's only the damn picture. Bioware knows that would do nothing but anger their fans if they did that with one of the girls. Why the hell did they think they could get away with one of the guys?

Hell, that's even more realisitic. Healthy, young people die during wars, even women, and you can not stop it or control it. They should have done that with one of male Shepards female LI: Miranda, Liara, Tali, Jack or Ashley. One of them should have played hero and made a big sacrifice for the galaxy. Sorry, Shepard, you picked the wrong person to love. She wanted to die a warriors death and for the greater good.

Modifié par Lucky Thirteen, 06 juillet 2012 - 02:47 .

[RShara]

The only purpose to Thane's death is shock value. *sigh*

[Bluecansam]

M. Hanky wrote...

You guys have made some good points, but they still have yet to effectively negate my central arguement that the game would suck if Shepard were omnipotent to the point that Shepard gets to ALWAYS choose who lives and dies and when. that would make Shepard a monster if you look at it from earth's perspective, for instance.

Okay, let's look at your central argument, then.

The problem with your argument is that ME3 DOES make Shepard out to be a (nearly) omnipotent person. S/he grants the krogan a cure for the genophage. S/he unites centuries old enemies such as the quarians and the geth. Her/his actions and decisions determine whether characters like Miranda or Jack or Mordin or Cortez live or die. In the end, s/he can either kill off entire races of people (destroy), become a truly omnipotent being (control), merge the DNA of all organic and synthetic beings (synthesis), or doom the entire galaxy to extinction (refusal). With one decision.

It's not that we disagree with you. It IS ridiculous that Shepard is able to do all of these fantastical things. It can make her/him seem to be a monster. This is already true.

What WE argue is that saving Thane isn't the line between her/him being a realistic human and an omnipotent Mary Sue. S/he's ALREADY an omnipotent Mary Sue. S/he cannot be redeemed merely by being unable to save or prolong Thane's life. In a universe where you can merge the DNAs of people who don't even HAVE DNA (synthetics), why is it suddenly saving Thane's life that would tip the balances of what is believable and unbelievable?

What we are asking IS believable:
~ Thane's disease is based off of Cystic Fibrosis. There are treatments NOW that can prolong the lives of those suffering from such a disease.
~ People suffering from even a terminal disease DO sometimes seek treatment after originally refusing to do so.
~ The loved ones of the terminally ill would almost certainly request that their sick loved one get treatment.
~ Terminally ill people do not always just talk about their illness. Even if it consumes their thoughts a lot of the time, there are STILL other aspects to their lives.
~ 3 trained, healthy soldiers would not just stand idly by while a terminally ill person (however skilled) took on an opponent.
~ A trained assassin, however ill, would not make such rookie mistakes as diving toward someone armed with a sword, or not taking a clear shot when it presented itself.
~ One's supposed best friends would almost certainly offer condolences if a loved one has passed away.
~ Should a loved one pass away, one would almost certainly take time to mourn and be visible affected.

None of these things make Shepard into any more of a Mary Sue than s/he already is. On the contrary, these are realistic, believable things that could have been written into the story to ADD to realism. As it is, the fact that these things are lacking TAKES AWAY from the realism.

[RShara]

So well written. Thank you Bluecansam

[firel]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Roxy]

@ Bluecansam I agree with you 100%!

[Bluecansam]

Thanks for the kind words, guys. Hopefully it'll help clear up any misunderstandings of what we're about.

[RShara]

You said what I've been trying to say for a couple pages, but you made it make sense

[Theobuomai]

Awesome posts Squeegee and Bluecansam. Thank you for getting to the depth of the matter.

[spamhead80]

M. Hanky wrote...

sometimes intervening in such a fight does more damage than good.

I take it you've been involved in a lot of close quarters, laser gun fights with plot armored ninjas?

[RShara]

The fight wasn't really that close-quarters.

[M. Hanky]

spamhead80 wrote...

M. Hanky wrote...

sometimes intervening in such a fight does more damage than good.

I take it you've been involved in a lot of close quarters, laser gun fights with plot armored ninjas?

tons of them!

and @bluecansam, I appreciate you getting at the heart of my arguements (finally), and while you do make some good points, I still think you guys are making a mountain (one as big as 10 everests put together) out of a molehill here, but that's your choice, too. we each have our different ways of playing the game, and seeing things.

EDIT: though just one final point here, as I sit here thinking (darn it!) about your many good points, i found a slight issue i have with one of the points that doesn't have too much to do with the debate of the day.
      the Salarian counciler's safety was the mission. that was paramount. they weren't just sitting idly by as Thane fought Kai Leng, they were putting themselves between Kai Leng/any potential other assassins that very well could have been lurking cloacked in the shadows and the Salarian Counciler. from such a position, it would be inadvisable to take potshots at Kai Leng in the middle of the close-ish quarters ninja duel.

Modifié par M. Hanky, 06 juillet 2012 - 05:42 .

[RShara]

M. Hanky, lol yeah we all tried, but bluecansam did it best. If it seems like we're making a huge deal about this, it's because that's the ONLY way to get Bioware to listen.

[M. Hanky]

RShara wrote...

M. Hanky, lol yeah we all tried, but bluecansam did it best. If it seems like we're making a huge deal about this, it's because that's the ONLY way to get Bioware to listen.

I hear you there.

[Renmiri1]

Finally!

[BeanieBat]

M. Hanky wrote...

EDIT: though just one final point here, as I sit here thinking (darn it!) about your many good points, i found a slight issue i have with one of the points that doesn't have too much to do with the debate of the day.
      the Salarian counciler's safety was the mission. that was paramount. they weren't just sitting idly by as Thane fought Kai Leng, they were putting themselves between Kai Leng/any potential other assassins that very well could have been lurking cloacked in the shadows and the Salarian Counciler. from such a position, it would be inadvisable to take potshots at Kai Leng in the middle of the close-ish quarters ninja duel.

I thought about that too, do you really think it necessary that all 3 need to protect the councillor though?  Not even one could have had a go at KL?  And if you look at the screenshots, they're not even paying attention to the councillor anyway.  IF there had been other Cerberus agents lurking about then I would understand Shepard and squad not being able to help.  And I do think that there should have been something in the scene that would have distracted Shep and squad from the Thane/KL fight, that would have made more sense to me.

[Steel Dancer]

BeanieBat wrote...

M. Hanky wrote...

EDIT: though just one final point here, as I sit here thinking (darn it!) about your many good points, i found a slight issue i have with one of the points that doesn't have too much to do with the debate of the day.
      the Salarian counciler's safety was the mission. that was paramount. they weren't just sitting idly by as Thane fought Kai Leng, they were putting themselves between Kai Leng/any potential other assassins that very well could have been lurking cloacked in the shadows and the Salarian Counciler. from such a position, it would be inadvisable to take potshots at Kai Leng in the middle of the close-ish quarters ninja duel.

I thought about that too, do you really think it necessary that all 3 need to protect the councillor though?  Not even one could have had a go at KL?  And if you look at the screenshots, they're not even paying attention to the councillor anyway.  IF there had been other Cerberus agents lurking about then I would understand Shepard and squad not being able to help.  And I do think that there should have been something in the scene that would have distracted Shep and squad from the Thane/KL fight, that would have made more sense to me.

In that situation it would have made more sense to tell the other two squaddies to get the Councillor the hell out of there. Which also, irritatingly, would have made a tiny bit more sense of the fight a little less nonsensical too, with Shep as the only gawping bystander.

Oh and Shep is meant to be an absurdly good shot. Just ask Garrus if you don't believe me.