140 réponses à ce sujet

[Gliese]

I can't be bothered to play subotpimally in order to be challenged by the AI but if you can then good for you, I envy that ability sometimes (I just feel stupid and get bored if I do it).
I'll wait for patches (doubtful if this issue will be adressed but the spell nerfs give some hope) or mods to fix issues like these and play something more challenging in the meantime.

Modifié par Gliese, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:39 .

[Jordi B]

I guess that depends on your definition of "optimal" and "suboptimal". If it involves "least risk", then I guess pulling would be a very good "strategy". For any other aspect I don't think it's best. If you want to beat encounters as fast as possible, I think pulling doesn't really help. But more importantly, I think "optimal" should mean "most fun", so I don't really see why people would purposefully play in a way that is suboptimal in that regard.

I have slightly more understanding if people would be tempted to prevent multiple reloads by using cheesy tactics, even though in the long run they might have gotten more satisfaction if they were actually forced to reload and try something a little more sensible.

I don't envy those that need BioWare to hold their hand in order to play in the way that is most enjoyable to them. I wouldn't oppose a "fix" to pulling though. However, I don't know if the issue is easy to fix without needing to "just make the AI smarter", which is of course something we all want, but also very hard to realize.

[Gliese]

Well what do you know I had another look at the Nightmare + mod and it seems they've already included a fix for pulling enemies, I'm going to try it out tomorrow.



http://social.bioware.com/project/667/



Should be project 666 rather.



About optimal: I mean optimal approach to defeating enemies, least risk and so on. Yeah having fun is the most important thing but I find enjoyment in testing my abilities as a gamer against the challenge framework presented by a game. That doesn't mean I don't RP characters, I always do that, but I do tend to build powerful characters to RP and utilize their abilities to their fullest. Flaws I give my characters tend to be based around psychological sentiments and not combat abiltiy.

[SanitariumPr]

Not an exploit

Creative use of game mechanics

if you dont like it - dont do it.

[fchopin]

SanitariumPr wrote...

Not an exploit
Creative use of game mechanics
if you dont like it - dont do it.

Agree, not an exploit.

[Timortis]

Naked Fury wrote...


Suppose there's a bunch of bad guys which are far away, barely in sight. Shoot an arrow at the closet one. The enemy you hit (or missed) will run towards you, but the others will stay put. You can pick off whole mobs like this, one by one. You might attract more than one at once, but you can almost always prevent this by retreating the moment the arrow leaves your bow. In most cases don't even need a bow -- just inch closer and closer to them until one starts running (or shooting) at you.

Using this technique I played a solo dual-wield rogue on nightmare until I got fully bored around 60% through. It wasn't very difficult -- hide around a corner after shooting then assassinate when the guy turns the corner. It works for all but the hardest bosses, which can be handled with a trap placed at the corner. (There are a few other solo rogue techniques, but this covers almost all encounters.)

You're lying. At best you soloed parts of the game with a character you already had in Lothering or beyond. What you said is only part true. There are mobs you can pull this way, and there are a great many you can't and they're not just bosses.

Just in the Tower of Ishal alone, there are groups where it's simply impossible to pull less than 4 darkspawn at a time. For example, the first pack of mobs in the 3rd floor. Show me a video of you pulling them in ones, I'll eath my words. Social aggro exists, the designers simply chose to not make all mobs connected to each other, just groups of 2 or more, usually.

[hero 2]

Oh come on. What level of realism do you want?



How much fun would it be that 99% of people die when you hit them once with ... any weapon, really... rather than have a chunk knocked off some mythical HP bar?

[Dieover]

well op - its not really an exploit. It's working as intended because if you look at this way: The Developers provided you with 4 options and more.

1. Pulling - you get to lure small amount of enemies over to you if you wanna take it slow and easy (great way to beat orange mobs

2. Rambo style - just run toward a group of enemies and start your planning from there to add unpredictable excitements and pleasure to your game-play.

3. Overwhelm - the game took away the above 2 options and put you into an ambush situation where you're being surrounded and face double the amount of enemies and the only way for you to survive is quick thinking and put those CC to good use.

4. Early ambush detection - the game give you the options to counter attack or let em come to you as a group.

Modifié par Dieover, 16 décembre 2009 - 02:29 .

[RampantBeaver]

Luring or Pulling, as I'm used to it being called, is a big part of mmo's. It has also become a big part of Bioware's RPG's. I would be surprised if anyone playing DA:O at no point ever used pulling. It's an exploit that will make certain fights a hell of a lot easier. An extreme case is pulling Ser Cauthrien away into one of the adjacent rooms when you first meet her and then after kiting around her until she is dead, you return to finish off the rest of the guards. It's human nature to make challenging situations easier, so if we are presented with pulling as a solution its going to be capitalized.

It actually really makes me angry at Bioware. They spend all this time on the rest of the game making something truly epic and then fall flat making a believable combat system/AI.

Its backwards thinking! How the game plays out as it is your characters would struggle to win even in a fair fight in most encounters; the times I've watched Alistair get his organs handed to him by a random thug in a back alley. This to me breaks the emersion. I've stopped thinking of me and my companions as hero's, instead I find it more believable that my character managed to stumble across Bernard's Watch and has the unrelenting ability to go back in time, every time he fails, to try again. Making him in fact just a commoner who, through reloading, fluked his way to eventually killing an Archdaemon. Not the epic tale I was hoping for. It makes me feel that BW intended for us to abuse pulling, kiting and our mages and then respectively made the mobs better fighters than you to even things out.

Forward thinking would be removing these capabilities and in fact making your characters more adept. Make them able to take on 3 guys at once. Make it impossible for enemies to come at us one at a time and we get to see the prowess of our warriors cutting down waves of enemies. Not milk cone of cold because moving targets are the bane of our characters, having said that they do sometimes even struggle to hit immobile objects!

Please Bioware hear my plea!

Modifié par RampantBeaver, 16 décembre 2009 - 01:51 .

[booke63]

Naked Fury wrote...

booke63 wrote...

Likewise if I hit one of a group of bad guys with an arrow and every time the entire group would rush pell mell toward the arrow and encountered my traps and AoE and CC spells..."dumbasses!" After repeat performances like this I (the player) would also be puzzled.

I (the player) would then recognize that AI is not thinking and cannot outsmart me. But I can roleplay and do all I can to vary my encounters, so I don't have to either avoid tactics too often or exploit the AI over much. Roleplaying is the only real variable here.

When your car starts making a clanking sound, you could "roleplay" the situation by imagining that you are being pelted with rocks thrown by disheveled norsemen wearing bras on their head who follow you everywhere you go. Or you could take the car to a mechanic.

The star of this thread is Emmental, who has written a mod which proposes to fix the problem: Bring a Friend. Thanks Emmental, the effort is appreciated. I'll try it out soon.

Why would I do that with my car?  That makes no sense as I'm sure you're not drawing an analogy between me playing a role playing game on my computer with me driving my car down the street.  Because that would be silly.

I too may give Emmental's mod a try.  Why not?  So I shoot  a guy with an arrow and he pulls a friend.  Is that more realistic?  Sure if you think it so.  It's not like the pixils on the screen are actually taking an arrow and thinking about how to respond and talking with one another and deciding to attack the arrow shooter.  Our brains are investing the AI with that fiction.  We're already roleplaying.  So send a friend, send the whole mob!  I'll have a tactic or two for that   It's no problem and I'm not even a very good gamer.  It's just that I'm smarter than DO:A's AI. So are you. It's nothing to brag about, of course.  Our brains are surely the most powerful variable in the game, and the game is surely meaningless (bunch of lights on a screen) without our brains.

All of us here, even the hackiest slashiest of us, are supreme role players every time we boot up a video game.

Thanks
 

[SheffSteel]

Pulling - the roleplaying approach
Party leader: Crap! Darkspawn ahead... ten of them. Looks like we're in trouble.
Warrior: I've got my bow out. Let them come.
Mage: I'll slow them down with a blizzard. Nothing to worry about.
Thief: Let me start the fight by pinning one down with an aimed shot from stealth... yes!
Leader: Oh. Only two are coming... and one of those is slowed down.... oh, they're dead. Well, that's still eight left.
Warrior: I've got my bow out. Let them come.
Mage: I'll slow them down with a blizzard. Nothing to worry about.
Thief: Let me start the fight by pinning one down with an aimed shot from stealth... yes!
Leader: Oh. Only two are coming... and one of those is slowed down.... oh, they're dead. Well, that's still six left.
Warrior: I've got my bow out. Let them come.
Mage: I'll slow them down with a blizzard. Nothing to worry about.
Thief: Let me start the fight by pinning one down with an aimed shot from stealth... yes!
Leader: Oh. Only two are coming... and one of those is slowed down.... oh, they're dead. Well, that's still four left.
Warrior: I've got my bow out. Let them come.
Mage: I'll slow them down with a blizzard. Nothing to worry about.
Thief: Let me start the fight by pinning one down with an aimed shot from stealth... yes!
Leader: Oh. Only two are coming... well sod this CHARGE

Pulling - the powergamer approach
Player: Crap! Darkspawn ahead... ten of them. Looks like we're in for a pull fest. Nackum fackum wackum BORED NOW stupid AI grumble grumble suppose I could charge, but I'd just end up having to drink potions... meh not worth it


Alternative - the roleplaying approach
Party leader: Crap! Darkspawn ahead... ten of them. Looks like we're in trouble.
Warrior: I've got my bow out. Let them come.
Mage: I'll slow them down with a blizzard. Nothing to worry about.
Thief: Let me start the fight by pinning one down with an aimed shot from stealth... yes!
Genlock: I'd like the "phone a friend" option please.
Other Genlocks, Hurlocks, Morlocks and Warlocks: RRAAAARRRRR!
Leader: Here they come!
Warrior: Eat this! And this! And this! Come on ye filthy sons, I'm waitin' for ye!
Mage: Blizzard! Too cold for ya? Fireball! Oh, are you too hot now? Cone of cold! And... shock! Frying tonight!  Muahahaha!
Bard: (sings) shoot, shoot, shoot the charging darkspawn
Leader: I thought you were just a thief!
Bard: Dude I am totally a level 8 Bard now, we've seen a lot more action since the game was mysteriously improved back there.

Alternative - the powergamer approach
Player: Crap! Darkspawn ahead... ten of them. Looks like we're in trouble. Okay, let's think. Traps? Nah, we're not in that much trouble. Take cover, fire off some AoE CC and DPS spells with missile weapons for cover... should be fun. Let's go.


I'm not seeing a downside. Yes, I can see that some players might not feel confident enough to battle a large group at one time, but to be honest, this will only make a difference in those situations where the player sees the darkspawn first and can dictate the time and place of the fight. These are the easiest situations the game puts you into. This won't affect the ambushes, or the forced leave-stealth-then-talk-then-fight scenarios, which are the really tough fights for a newbie. 

Modifié par SheffSteel, 16 décembre 2009 - 02:42 .

[Dieover]

awww those are lovely role-play poem. You got some good talent there : D

Modifié par Dieover, 16 décembre 2009 - 02:43 .

[Darpaek]

I've played playthrus on Nightmare and on Easy. I just want to note that I had far more fun on my Easy playthru just running in like a moron than I ever did playing "strategically" on Nightmare.

[Naked Fury]

Timortis wrote...

Naked Fury wrote...


Suppose there's a bunch of bad guys which are far away, barely in sight. Shoot an arrow at the closet one. The enemy you hit (or missed) will run towards you, but the others will stay put. You can pick off whole mobs like this, one by one. You might attract more than one at once, but you can almost always prevent this by retreating the moment the arrow leaves your bow. In most cases don't even need a bow -- just inch closer and closer to them until one starts running (or shooting) at you.

Using this technique I played a solo dual-wield rogue on nightmare until I got fully bored around 60% through. It wasn't very difficult -- hide around a corner after shooting then assassinate when the guy turns the corner. It works for all but the hardest bosses, which can be handled with a trap placed at the corner. (There are a few other solo rogue techniques, but this covers almost all encounters.)

You're lying. At best you soloed parts of the game with a character you already had in Lothering or beyond. What you said is only part true. There are mobs you can pull this way, and there are a great many you can't and they're not just bosses.

[spoilers deleted]

You are conflating two different things. There is the enemy AI, and then there are scripted triggers. Having four bad guys run into the room when you cross a threshold is an example of a trigger. That's level design, not social aggro or AI. Furthermore, Combat Stealth makes it irrelevant.

To answer your strangely emotive accusation: No, I did everything solo, even before obtaining Combat Stealth. I already mentioned the primary tactic. If you disbelieve then try it and see. Another tactic is filling the room with spring traps, which are cheap and unlimited (and like all traps, recoverable when unused).

[Superdink]

Damar Stiehl wrote...

It's called pulling. Standard MMO tactic. Deal with it.

No... it's really not.  Pulling in MMO's is separating ONE GROUP from another group, and it only works if the groups are outside of each other's aggro radius (AKA the other group didn't "see" the attack).  In MMO's you aren't able to shoot an arrow at the boss from across the map and pull him away from the rest of the group.  If you tried to "pull" one person in a group, all other enemies in the same group would come, as well as all other groups that share an aggro circle.

It's not a legit tactic, it's a flaw in the game.  And if Bioware put this in the game on purpose... then they are just weird and lame.

And before someone gets all ****** and flames me, I'm not bashing anyone.  I could'nt care less what you do in your game; I'm just saying that it's not a legit "tactic," it's a bug in AI, and should be addressed.

[knownastherat]

Not much to add to discussion as perhaps everything was, one way or the other, said already.

My opinion is that its up to the player to decide how s/he wants to play the game. No one is forced to "pull", as no one is forced to use Mana Clash, as no one is forced to brew potions and sell them for profit, no one is forced to shoot a dragon with a bow from a spot the dragon cannot reach.

Essentially, removing the ability to "pull" (and thus make combat "easier") removes an option from the game, option which enables soloing with 2H warrior on NM for example, and that is from where I sit not a good thing.

Is it exploit? Is it lame?

Who cares? Who is to judge? There is no measure to taste as far as I know.

[KalosCast]

Superdink wrote...
And before someone gets all ****** and flames me, I'm not bashing anyone.

I will leave it as a thought experiment for the rest of you to find the absurdity of this statement.





On topic: If you think it's an unfair tactic or an exploit, don't use it. There is no encounter in the game that can't be solved through a more direct approach regardless of whether or not this is actually an exploit. If the idea of someone in a single player game casting fewer spells or chugging fewer poultices because of how they choose to play the game that they bought with their money whilst in the privacy of their own home has you up in arms.... it's a good time to take a look at what's important in life.

[Mistwaver]

I didn't know this existed, but no, I don't use it, and don't plan to. I don't get the same satisfication by using cheats or exploits as I do by strategizing.

[wanderon]

Superdink wrote...

Damar Stiehl wrote...

It's called pulling. Standard MMO tactic. Deal with it.

No... it's really not.  Pulling in MMO's is separating ONE GROUP from another group, and it only works if the groups are outside of each other's aggro radius (AKA the other group didn't "see" the attack).  In MMO's you aren't able to shoot an arrow at the boss from across the map and pull him away from the rest of the group.  If you tried to "pull" one person in a group, all other enemies in the same group would come, as well as all other groups that share an aggro circle.

It's not a legit tactic, it's a flaw in the game.  And if Bioware put this in the game on purpose... then they are just weird and lame.

And before someone gets all ****** and flames me, I'm not bashing anyone.  I could'nt care less what you do in your game; I'm just saying that it's not a legit "tactic," it's a bug in AI, and should be addressed.

That may be true in the land of superdink but here in Biowares world I suspect it's playing as intended just as it did in the BG series and all the IE games - you know - Baldurs Gate?

The game Dragon Age is considered to be the spiritual successor to?

And why would something like this ever need to be "addressed" in a single player game? To force people to stop using it and "play their game properly"?

[Poet DAO]

Superdink wrote...

No... it's really not.  Pulling in MMO's is separating ONE GROUP from another group, and it only works if the groups are outside of each other's aggro radius (AKA the other group didn't "see" the attack).  In MMO's you aren't able to shoot an arrow at the boss from across the map and pull him away from the rest of the group.  If you tried to "pull" one person in a group, all other enemies in the same group would come, as well as all other groups that share an aggro circle.

It's not a legit tactic, it's a flaw in the game.  And if Bioware put this in the game on purpose... then they are just weird and lame.

Youre wrong on both counts, with all due respect.

1. In games like EQ2 in which you have group encounters, you have the group as a whole that cant be separated. In games like EQ1 pulling mob by mob was not only possible: some people made an art out of it, literally "peeling" the guards from a boss.
2. And it wasnt a flaw and it WAS a legit tactic, both in group play and raids. because years and years afterwards, the game kept on relying on the same tactics without any modification on the part of the designers. Whats more: a specific class, the monk, had their primary reason for being the pulling of mobs, with the help of the skill "feign death" they usually discarded some of the pulled mobs if they were too many. It was not only legit: it was an integral part of the game for monks, so designed.


In this game I would say it is intended also. You cant really peel the mobs if theyre too close together. And anyone can choose if they want a more careful approach pulling or a faster one charging. To each his/her own.

Aaah and it is not true that Icewind Dale didnt have that, as someone pointed before. Incidentally I am now replaying Icewind Dale on weekends and you can pull perfectly well in some instances, most of them in fact.

[Timortis]

Naked Fury wrote...

You are conflating two different things. There is the enemy AI, and then there are scripted triggers. Having four bad guys run into the room when you cross a threshold is an example of a trigger. That's level design, not social aggro or AI. Furthermore, Combat Stealth makes it irrelevant.

To answer your strangely emotive accusation: No, I did everything solo, even before obtaining Combat Stealth. I already mentioned the primary tactic. If you disbelieve then try it and see. Another tactic is filling the room with spring traps, which are cheap and unlimited (and like all traps, recoverable when unused).

No I'm not conflating anything. I'm not talking about scripted triggers. My example was not a spoiler but anyway, you can't pull all mobs in ones or twos. There are a lot of these in the game, they're not just bosses. You don't need to tell me what can and can't be done, I've soloed the game with a Warrior, without stealth.

[sarc.tr]

I don't use luring as a tactic but when it happens(unintentionally that is) I don't load my last save and charge the mob head-on if you know what I mean

[Gracchio]

Bibdy wrote...

Some call it an exploit, others call it a tactic. Depends if its intended or not. You can turn a difficult encounter into something fairly trivial by separating the mobs with pulling tactics. I try not to do it, opting for the frontal-assault approach, aggroing everything before committing to the attack, but it was usually the first thing I turned to when I encountered a difficult fight in my first couple of playthroughs.

I think its a big shame it exists, to be honest. Its too easy to fall back on that for almost every encounter in the game, then if things get a bit hard at the moment, you can just start kiting. Both of those combined make a lot of potentially challenging fights really simple. I certainly don't have the capability to program a more advanced AI for the game, to make mobs act more sensibly, but I hope someone can.

You're kinda missing the point here. This is definately a bug or a weird developer choice.

It doesn't make sense not to respond when your friend suddenly falls down with an arrow stuck in the back of his head. I like the aggro shout idea tho, since most of the mobs do indeed shout anyways. Or garble garble or whatever sound darkspawn make is called.

[Gliese]

Sure you can adjust for it by not using it but then suddenly bows are nerfed even more since you can't use them from their maximum range. You can do dozens of little adjustments to your playstyle in order to increase the challenge, but at some point it gets a bit difficult to remember all of the handicaps you're supposed to give the AI as opposed to just immersing yourself in the tactical situation and doing your best.
It's like playing a game against a little kid and desperatly trying to think how you could play to lose despite his bad play in order to make him happy without making it to glaringly obvious.

Modifié par Gliese, 17 décembre 2009 - 08:07 .

[SheffSteel]

Gliese wrote...
It's like playing a game against a little kid and desperatly trying to think how you could play to lose despite his bad play in order to make him happy without making it to glaringly obvious.

... except that the kid will enjoy playing against you, and the game won't.