140 réponses à ce sujet

[F-C]

i dont see it as broken because it doesnt always work. sometimes you tag the guy on the end and he comes running by himself, and another time you tag a guy on the end and the whole lot of them come running at you.



i personally just consider it playing intelligently.



i mean how many movies have you watched where the commando force starts by taking the guys out on the end to reduce the number of enemies before taking them head on?



if the mobs are meant to be attached and notice everything that is going on around them, then usually they do. i havent seen any situation where i could just randomly shoot a mob in the middle of a pack and not aggro the whole lot of them.





personally i consider it rather stupid to just rush in and take everything head on unless you can just completly overpower them with no challenge involved. its just not smart. its like running and jumping on a sword because you think you can take it.

[Naked Fury]

Timortis wrote...

Naked Fury wrote...

You are conflating two different things. There is the enemy AI, and then there are scripted triggers. Having four bad guys run into the room when you cross a threshold is an example of a trigger. That's level design, not social aggro or AI. Furthermore, Combat Stealth makes it irrelevant.

To answer your strangely emotive accusation: No, I did everything solo, even before obtaining Combat Stealth. I already mentioned the primary tactic. If you disbelieve then try it and see. Another tactic is filling the room with spring traps, which are cheap and unlimited (and like all traps, recoverable when unused).

No I'm not conflating anything. I'm not talking about scripted triggers. My example was not a spoiler but anyway, you can't pull all mobs in ones or twos. There are a lot of these in the game, they're not just bosses.

OK you're not talking about triggers. You are claiming the AI has some kind of social aggro which none of us have observed.

Again, the example you gave is not social aggro. If you walk around with stealth in the place you mentioned, you'll find various scripts triggering as you cross certain waypoints or when you are spotted in certain places. The scripts are simple: these monsters run this way, these monsters run that way. Again, that's level design, not AI. If you engage them you'll see the AI is the same.

So tell us how to enable this heretofore unseen social AI, or tell us in the spoilers forum where it occurs. I submit that you have confused scripted triggers with social aggro, as your example indicates.

Timortis wrote...

You don't need to tell me what can and can't be done, I've soloed the game with a Warrior, without stealth.

Yet you began your post like this,

Timortis wrote...

You're lying. At best you soloed parts of the game with a character you already had in Lothering or beyond.

I already mentioned the primary strategy I used, and I also mentioned a secondary strategy. I told you to try it and see, if you didn't believe. If you are unable to play a Rogue solo using these techniques, then that does not imply I am lying. If you didn't try, then you are making empty accusations.

Modifié par Naked Fury, 17 décembre 2009 - 09:15 .

[bzombo]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Chadoe wrote...

It's generally called body pulling, and it's present in many MMOs as well as RPGs. Why call it a bug?

Gonna split hairs here.

The terms (not the concpts) 'pulling' and 'body pulling' both originate from EQ.  "body pulling' is where you use the physical proximity of your character to a mob to engage its aggro (run up and ****** it off).  'Pulling' or 'ranged pulling' is where you use a ranged weapon or spell to draw aggro.

So no, this is not 'body pulling'

/nitpick.

this has been around at least since baldur's gate by manipulating the fog of war to prevent your party from seeing certain monsters and only pulling in one or two at a time.  it's been around a long time.

[bzombo]

addiction21 wrote...

Dex1701 wrote...

anarex wrote...

Don't kid yourself, we are all beta testing the Dragon Age MMORPG. The sad thing is how little Bioware actually understands how they work. They tried to implement many of their features but had no idea how to handle the exploits.

I'd love to see this claim supported with some evidence or at least insightful observations.  I haven't seen a single convention in Dragon Age that originated in an MMO.

*climbs out from under his bridge*

WoW had a similiar interfaces, skills, specializations, experiance, levels, elves, dwarfs, pubs, bricks, swords, sharp pointy things, magic, toast, bad people, good people, ugly people, short people, bald people, axes, and more...

Short answers is WHOOOOOSHHHH... right over your head dex.

the things you stated were around before mmos existed.

[Superdink]

Poet DAO wrote...

Superdink wrote...

No... it's really not.  Pulling in MMO's is separating ONE GROUP from another group, and it only works if the groups are outside of each other's aggro radius (AKA the other group didn't "see" the attack).  In MMO's you aren't able to shoot an arrow at the boss from across the map and pull him away from the rest of the group.  If you tried to "pull" one person in a group, all other enemies in the same group would come, as well as all other groups that share an aggro circle.

It's not a legit tactic, it's a flaw in the game.  And if Bioware put this in the game on purpose... then they are just weird and lame.

Youre wrong on both counts, with all due respect.

1. In games like EQ2 in which you have group encounters, you have the group as a whole that cant be separated. In games like EQ1 pulling mob by mob was not only possible: some people made an art out of it, literally "peeling" the guards from a boss.
2. And it wasnt a flaw and it WAS a legit tactic, both in group play and raids. because years and years afterwards, the game kept on relying on the same tactics without any modification on the part of the designers. Whats more: a specific class, the monk, had their primary reason for being the pulling of mobs, with the help of the skill "feign death" they usually discarded some of the pulled mobs if they were too many. It was not only legit: it was an integral part of the game for monks, so designed.


In this game I would say it is intended also. You cant really peel the mobs if theyre too close together. And anyone can choose if they want a more careful approach pulling or a faster one charging. To each his/her own.

Aaah and it is not true that Icewind Dale didnt have that, as someone pointed before. Incidentally I am now replaying Icewind Dale on weekends and you can pull perfectly well in some instances, most of them in fact.

And you say that I'm wrong... but then prove that I'm right.  YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THE GROUP AS A WHOLE.  In Dragon Age, you can.  That's just bad AI, it's not an MMO tactic.  And yes, you can pull guards away from the boss by shooting the guards, retreating from the boss, and then shooting the guards again before they reset patrol.  But even in that instance, THE BOSS STILL ATTEMPTS TO FIGHT YOU.  He doesn't just stand there and let his guard die, while completely ignore an arrow that hit an ally ten feet in front of him.

[Superdink]

Superdink wrote...

Poet DAO wrote...

Superdink wrote...

No... it's really not.  Pulling in MMO's is separating ONE GROUP from another group, and it only works if the groups are outside of each other's aggro radius (AKA the other group didn't "see" the attack).  In MMO's you aren't able to shoot an arrow at the boss from across the map and pull him away from the rest of the group.  If you tried to "pull" one person in a group, all other enemies in the same group would come, as well as all other groups that share an aggro circle.

It's not a legit tactic, it's a flaw in the game.  And if Bioware put this in the game on purpose... then they are just weird and lame.

Youre wrong on both counts, with all due respect.

1. In games like EQ2 in which you have group encounters, you have the group as a whole that cant be separated. In games like EQ1 pulling mob by mob was not only possible: some people made an art out of it, literally "peeling" the guards from a boss.
2. And it wasnt a flaw and it WAS a legit tactic, both in group play and raids. because years and years afterwards, the game kept on relying on the same tactics without any modification on the part of the designers. Whats more: a specific class, the monk, had their primary reason for being the pulling of mobs, with the help of the skill "feign death" they usually discarded some of the pulled mobs if they were too many. It was not only legit: it was an integral part of the game for monks, so designed.


In this game I would say it is intended also. You cant really peel the mobs if theyre too close together. And anyone can choose if they want a more careful approach pulling or a faster one charging. To each his/her own.

Aaah and it is not true that Icewind Dale didnt have that, as someone pointed before. Incidentally I am now replaying Icewind Dale on weekends and you can pull perfectly well in some instances, most of them in fact.

And you say that I'm wrong... but then prove that I'm right.  YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THE GROUP AS A WHOLE.  In Dragon Age, you can.  That's just bad AI, it's not an MMO tactic.  And yes, you can pull guards away from the boss by shooting the guards, retreating from the boss, and then shooting the guards again before they reset patrol.  But even in that instance, THE BOSS STILL ATTEMPTS TO FIGHT YOU.  He doesn't just stand there and let his guard die, while completely ignore an arrow that hit an ally ten feet in front of him.

KalosCast wrote...

Superdink wrote...
And before someone gets all ****** and flames me, I'm not bashing anyone.

I will leave it as a thought experiment for the rest of you to find the absurdity of this statement.

That statement wasn't absurd.  Flaming me WOULD be ******, because I haven't dissed anyone.  Have I called anyone ****** yet?  No.  Will I if they flame me for my opinion?  Probably.  So I haven't bashed anyone yet, and I'm not bashing people now.  So quit trying to argue with my posts unless you are actually going to discuss something that matters.

[rabbitchannel]

I use it. It's because some encounters would be nigh impossible without using it. I play on nightmare and there would be no other conceivable way to win. One example, the Circle Tower, the red enemy in the center of one of the levels. I would get thrashed. Especially since I go there first. Without pulling, no way. Admittedly, I do use it in some lower level encounters just because I've gotten so accustomed to it. Additionally, I hate it when I defeat an encounter and only half of my party or only 1 person is left standing.

[Tirigon]

Pulling is nice if you cant beat a certain fight, or if you want to make sure a certain char gets the kill so you cant be having with a big fight. But all in all its neither needed nor useful.



A little offtopic, but it has been argued here a lot already: The "Soloing on Nightmare" issue. Honestly, I dont believe anyone claiming this. Why? Because I tried it myself. It doesnt work. The tactic described in the first post sounds nice, but it fails, because on nightmare many fights are impossible even when you fight them one after the other. I actually have succeeded in pulling them one by one, with the result that each one wounded me a little until I finally died. Only possibility is if you have tons of healing pots to swallow before you lure the next one.

[Gliese]

Considering that bombs don't break stealth and there's an unlimited supply of fire bombs, I don't see how anyone wouldn't have at least a decent shot of soloing nightmare with a rogue. Would only have to deal with elite bosses out of stealth but there's feign death, should help.

[Poet DAO]

Superdink wrote...

Poet DAO wrote...

Superdink wrote...

No... it's really not.  Pulling in MMO's is separating ONE GROUP from another group, and it only works if the groups are outside of each other's aggro radius (AKA the other group didn't "see" the attack).  In MMO's you aren't able to shoot an arrow at the boss from across the map and pull him away from the rest of the group.  If you tried to "pull" one person in a group, all other enemies in the same group would come, as well as all other groups that share an aggro circle.

It's not a legit tactic, it's a flaw in the game.  And if Bioware put this in the game on purpose... then they are just weird and lame.

Youre wrong on both counts, with all due respect.

1. In games like EQ2 in which you have group encounters, you have the group as a whole that cant be separated. In games like EQ1 pulling mob by mob was not only possible: some people made an art out of it, literally "peeling" the guards from a boss.
2. And it wasnt a flaw and it WAS a legit tactic, both in group play and raids. because years and years afterwards, the game kept on relying on the same tactics without any modification on the part of the designers. Whats more: a specific class, the monk, had their primary reason for being the pulling of mobs, with the help of the skill "feign death" they usually discarded some of the pulled mobs if they were too many. It was not only legit: it was an integral part of the game for monks, so designed.


In this game I would say it is intended also. You cant really peel the mobs if theyre too close together. And anyone can choose if they want a more careful approach pulling or a faster one charging. To each his/her own.

Aaah and it is not true that Icewind Dale didnt have that, as someone pointed before. Incidentally I am now replaying Icewind Dale on weekends and you can pull perfectly well in some instances, most of them in fact.

And you say that I'm wrong... but then prove that I'm right.  YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THE GROUP AS A WHOLE.  In Dragon Age, you can.  That's just bad AI, it's not an MMO tactic.  And yes, you can pull guards away from the boss by shooting the guards, retreating from the boss, and then shooting the guards again before they reset patrol.  But even in that instance, THE BOSS STILL ATTEMPTS TO FIGHT YOU.  He doesn't just stand there and let his guard die, while completely ignore an arrow that hit an ally ten feet in front of him.

Maybe you havent read the statement completely. Im proving that in SOME GAMES (EQ2) it is a as you say (and not always, the solo mobs outside dungeons can perfectly well be body pulled or even pulled with an arrow near the others) and in others (EQ1 and some others, like LoTRO) encounters are NOT LINKED in this way and it is perfectly possible and even intended (as there is a specific PC class designed for that, aka monk) to do it. And of course "the boss stand there and let his guard die while completely ignore an arrow that hit an ally ten feet in front of him". Every raid is designed for a monk to peel away every single bodyguard, excpet when the designers especifically wanted you to fight adds, in which case the mobs usually spawned once engaged the main target.

Obviously you havent played EQ1 or even LoTRO because that happens ALL THE TIME. You can argue you are against that and that you think it is absurd, and I can even agree with you. But its not a bug. Its is intended and, again, soooooooooo taken into account that there is a specific character class designed to take advantage of this.

And I would bet that in DA:O is also intended. Because when they want the group of mobs to be linked, they ARE linked. And when they want an ambush, an ambush happens. And there is no way of separating the mobs.

[Tirigon]

Gliese wrote...

Considering that bombs don't break stealth and there's an unlimited supply of fire bombs, I don't see how anyone wouldn't have at least a decent shot of soloing nightmare with a rogue. Would only have to deal with elite bosses out of stealth but there's feign death, should help.

There are a few problems though:
1. Not enough money for endless bombs
2. If you stay invisible, the mobs have a f*cking high lifereg. I actually tried bombing them away while stealthed, but they had regenerated to full hp before bomb cd was over.
3. This way of playing is both unrealistic and boring. I do rather play with party then and have fun.

[Gliese]

Tirigon wrote...

Gliese wrote...

Considering that bombs don't break stealth and there's an unlimited supply of fire bombs, I don't see how anyone wouldn't have at least a decent shot of soloing nightmare with a rogue. Would only have to deal with elite bosses out of stealth but there's feign death, should help.

There are a few problems though:
1. Not enough money for endless bombs
2. If you stay invisible, the mobs have a f*cking high lifereg. I actually tried bombing them away while stealthed, but they had regenerated to full hp before bomb cd was over.
3. This way of playing is both unrealistic and boring. I do rather play with party then and have fun.

I would say the bombs are cheap enough to give you what you need for the whole game, if you have all 5 bombs ready to use it should be enough to bomb enemies to death before they regen, if not you could always pick ranger spec and sacrifice a bear or something to prevent rapid reg.
Solo challenge is not fun for everyone though. I haven't tried it yet as I have several origins and character concepts left to RP with full party. But I will probably try soloing in the future.

[strundler]

Naked Fury wrote...

OK you're not talking about triggers. You are claiming the AI has some kind of social aggro which none of us have observed.

I probably shouldn't attempt to spak for him, but based on his description, I don't think he's talking about either social aggro or triggers. He's talking about locations where it's impossible to aggro one mob without aggroing others because of spacial concerns. For example, if you open a door and there are four mobs in aggro range of said door, all four will aggro -- not because they're linked or because of a script, but because the space is too small. The simple range luring you described in the OP generally only works easily in outdoor areas. There are other ways to split up groups indoors (some of which you mention, e.g. traps), but these are of a different character and probably shouldn't be treated as a blanket issue. Unless your real question isn't about exploits and you're more concerned with the validity of splitting groups at all, in which case virtually all CC mechanisms come into question.

With regard to the original question, there are really two separate elements at work here. The first is one you gloss over and take as an assumption with your thread title -- that is, whether or not this behavior is an exploit. The only real answer to that is whether or not it's functioning within the parameters the designers intended. Given that this behavior has been present and documented in other BioWare games, there are two possibilities. 1) That they're either lazy or incompetent to an excessive degree, as amateur modders were able to quickly alter the behavior, or 2) That the game is designed with the behavior in mind, and hence using it is not an exploit. Given the general competence and effort illustrated in the construction of the rest of the game, I'm inclined to think 2) is more likely to be correct, though I'll gladly defer if anyone has better evidence of the design intentions here.

The second element is whether or not players 'should' use the behavior, which is an entirely subjective one and only probably only partially contingent on whether or not it's an exploit. For some, designer intent may be all that's relevant; e.g. anything within the intended rules is fair game and anything outside of them is not. Others, such as yourself, may impose artificial limitations beyond those in the rules (e.g. doing a solo run introduces new rules vis a vis party composition) on themselves for whatever reasons, from "challenge" to "fun" to "realism." To that extent, we can talk about it, but it's worth recognizing that it's mostly a matter of their own gameplay preferences. And as such, people are likely to get frustrated to the extent that others try to claim their position is objectively superior in some way.

[Quillmaster]

For the most part I consider it a tactic, although having pulled half a dozen guys from a small room and dealt with them, I was a little surprised when I entered the room and found another half a dozen in there. Maybe they were too scared to come out when they heard their comrades screaming?

[El-Destructo]

I use the Bring a Friend mod and quite enjoy it, so my preference should be obvious. =)

If you want to try the game without the possibility of luring you should try it. It is definitely much harder to get past some of the encounters, especially the massive mobs present in the deep roads, but I still found it perfectly doable. Finished the entire game with the mod installed all the way to the end with no mage, however I slightly cheated by using Shale for extra CC in the deep roads because Shale is ridiculous and I wanted to bring him to speak with an old friend.



Traps and grenades to tip the balance of power become far more important especially in the early game. Doubly so if you do not use a mage in your party. Even my two-handed warrior characters take Poison Making rank 1 early in the game to throw grenades, and I make sure all my rogues can place traps.



http://social.biowar...ect/1335/#files

[NDAv]

If Bioware intended for us to fight entire groups of enemies all at once all the time, then the AI would have designed accordingly, it's as simple as that.