332 réponses à ce sujet

[Aylyese]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

The final scene is just a recording of Liara speaking in a bunker. There is no one else in the room we can see. For all we know it's just on a loop.

http://www.youtube.c...5a0MEIE#t=1m54s 

Actually, this is the final scene in the refusal ending - after the credits.. Providing bulk proof that Liara's capsule was found and used to defeat the Reapers in a future cycle.. But thanks for playing.

Astartes Marine wrote...

Geth and EDI - I doubt their demise as the only proof, if you can call it that, was from the Catalyst itself...an

http://www.youtube.c...EHhnBgA#t=8m41s 


Dead EDI in Destroy. Perhaps you didn't have enough EMS and got the Dead Shepard helmet instead?

commandergodchild wrote...

Ok well what The Voice of God is tweeting is totally illogical, so I reject it.  Just like I reject the totally illogical crap godchild spouted. 

Agreed - If it is not in the game, it is not canon. Gamers should not need to go to twitter to find out more information. Any game developer worth anything should know that. 

 

Zanza86 wrote...

I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt but after that reply I can tell you either didn't understand the logic that was explained rather clearly and just filled in your own blanks or you are trolling.

Rought translation - I have run out of constructive replies, so I am going to insult you instead.

Zanza86 wrote...
I think the catalyst asked you if you can blame fire for burning and you felt stupid.

Your argument is non-sequitur. 
Fire is not sentient, Reapers are.   

Blarty wrote...

On a side note, I got the impression that the Catalyst just wants the cycle to be ended, in whatever way, the anger at the refusal yet complete inaction over the destroy choice makes me lean towards this conclusion

I wouldn't read too much into that. I think it's addition in anger is more a commentary on the feeling of the devlopers over the feelings of the fictional character. 

B3ckett wrote...

The reject ending would'be been better if some more fighting to the last man was shown. Then Liara's time capsule would be so much more...

And this is exactly why it is such a bad ending in some minds. There is nothing about Sheps cycle past Liara saying they failed. She also said it would take them hundreds of years of war to harvest this cycle (in game) and that as such a young Asari she could live to see most of it. Now Reject is the bad barely explained ending and the other three are fleshed out a little more. 

This is also where the retaker divide becomes apparent. Those who just wanted some closure are happy with getting closure on their choices. Those of us who found the three options utterly abhorrent are pleased with the added refusal option even though, like the original endings, it is not fleshed out, has no futher information for Sheps cycle and leaves speculations for everyone. It however is not morally repugnant. 

thisisme8 wrote...

So, back to the OP - sorry to interrupt current debate.

The reject ending actually has the merit of being the "heaviest ending." Even though the other endings are all fine since you "win," different people will have different views of their price, since that price is almost entirely defined by morals.

The reject ending, however, tells the story of the last complete cycle. So basically, you have three whole games where you try to defeat the reapers, but you learn at the end, you aren't the hero of this story, somebody in the next cycle is. A really powerful message.

Granted, this all depends on speculation of how the next cycle wins. From my own interpretation, the next cycle was able to win without the Crucible, and without the 3 decision dilemma (this is gathered from Liara saying they built the Crucible, they were united, but they still couldn't do it), but still very dependent on something you did. So, you aren't the hero of the story, but the "hero of old" that the current hero seeks for guidance as he stares off into the sky with Liara's recording in hand, wondering what he should do next.

Very clever, BioWare. Very clever.

 

+0.75 internets for you.

----

Most of these discussions are based upon faulty logic. Hindsight is 20/20. I would love to hear from someone who never played the original ending, standing at the catalyst facing these four options after playing all three games with EC. What is their opinion - before it is affected by the actual ending. 

Modifié par Aylyese, 28 juin 2012 - 06:58 .

[TheKillerAngel]

IN TWELVE PAGES OF THIS THREAD, THIS MAN HAS NOT BEEN MENTIONED?



KANT! KANT! KANT I SAY!

The rejection ending epitomizes Kantian ethics.

[RDSFirebane]

I've gotta agree reject seemed like the best ending to follow wish it had been an option in the first place.

[Deputy Secretary of Awesome]

Excellent post, OP. I have to agree that symbolically and ethically, Reject really spoke to me as a powerful and worthy choice. Shepard taking a stand to turn down the manipulative "choices" that Catalyst presented us with was a beautiful moment. Sometimes in order to do what's right and not surrender to tyranny and brutality, you have to be willing to give up everything. The Reapers and the Catalyst were fundamentally abhorrent, the deranged logic of an AI that has gone off the rails.

I also loved the idea that although we lost this cycle, what we as Shepard did and everything the allied forces of the galaxy achieved was still worthwhile in helping the next or later cycle in defeating the Reapers. (While tweets may say they used the Crucible again, the game doesn't so I'd prefer to believe they found another way)

This kind of virtue ethics in the face of absolute coercion and intimidation was the kind of brave choice I wanted from Shep in the original ending, and I'm glad it's in now.

[ahleung]

Zine2 wrote...
So when Shepard shoots the Star Child and rejects its logic, the blame for dooming the galaxy does not lie with Shepard.

For me, the canon reject ending was not shooting Star Child, but answering no when he asked Shepard to choose.

Although there were only couples more lines of dialogues, but Shepard's answer was very touching, explaining why he/she rejected all 3 offers.

Modifié par ahleung, 28 juin 2012 - 08:44 .

[N-Seven]

Yeah, it's the tough, manly and stubborn ending.

It's also selfish, prideful and dumb.

[Reptilian Rob]

Sajuro wrote...

Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask them if honor matters... their silence will be your answer.

QFT.

There is no honor, and no morality in war. Only the will to survive.

[SimonTheFrog]

People were asking for the Halo: Reach ending.

Reject is exactly that. Not for Shepard but for the galaxy. Fighting until the last man or woman is dead without actually hoping to win. But with the knowledge that that was the best we could do.

Quite cool.

It's still incredibly stupid and gamey that our hero has to decide that stuff without getting anybody elses opinion. This is so 80's.

[Indenter]

It's one thing to be actually defeated.
It's a completely different thing to say "hah, I am to good for this" and "Reapers will be reaping". It is selfish and proves nothing.
You are now as much of a murderer as those damn machines. You may not have actually let the dog out, but you didn't hold the leash on the mad dog when you could, so yeah, keep thinking you had nothing to do with loss of an entire generation of civilizations.




Didn't like the reject ending. Doesn't matter how "realistic" it was or whatever arugments in the OP.

To have successfully come this far and to not honor the losses and then the effort of those currently alive is a damn insult. Shepard was thought of as a hero, might as well lived up to it and not screw everyone over cos of pety wisdom like "sometimes heroism is how you meet defeat" - no.

[JA Shepard]

I'm not super religious but may God have mercy on any civilization that is caught between two opposing figure who both believe the best way to save life is to kill everyone.

Great, we all have to die because Shepard has to much artistic entegr..." principle".

Modifié par JA Shepard, 28 juin 2012 - 09:08 .

[DiebytheSword]

I don't think Bioware meant to malign this choice at all, the new Stargazer scene shows that intent in full force, choosing it still allows you to win by sacrificing our cycle.

[Maias227]

I think its hillarious they put it in as a ending after so many people screamed for that option.. so fun times it is!

[Baronesa]

DiebytheSword wrote...

I don't think Bioware meant to malign this choice at all, the new Stargazer scene shows that intent in full force, choosing it still allows you to win by sacrificing our cycle.

If we only go by the in game info... it is great...


But then they HAD to go on twitter and say that the next cycle will use the crucible and pick one of the 3 options... that is spiteful, that is a big middle finger.

Specially since the in game scene clearly shows Liara telling them that the Crucible did not work... why would the previous cycle is telling them didn't work?

[thisisme8]

Baronesa wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

I don't think Bioware meant to malign this choice at all, the new Stargazer scene shows that intent in full force, choosing it still allows you to win by sacrificing our cycle.

If we only go by the in game info... it is great...


But then they HAD to go on twitter and say that the next cycle will use the crucible and pick one of the 3 options... that is spiteful, that is a big middle finger.

Specially since the in game scene clearly shows Liara telling them that the Crucible did not work... why would the previous cycle is telling them didn't work?

I could care less what someone says on twitter, even if it's the writer.  If it isn't in the game, it doesn't count.  If he wanted that to be canon, he should have said it in the ending, but he didn't - can't make "metacomments" or else it minimizes the effectiveness of the ambiguity presented by leaving the information out.

[Baronesa]

thisisme8 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

I don't think Bioware meant to malign this choice at all, the new Stargazer scene shows that intent in full force, choosing it still allows you to win by sacrificing our cycle.

If we only go by the in game info... it is great...


But then they HAD to go on twitter and say that the next cycle will use the crucible and pick one of the 3 options... that is spiteful, that is a big middle finger.

Specially since the in game scene clearly shows Liara telling them that the Crucible did not work... why would the previous cycle is telling them didn't work?

I could care less what someone says on twitter, even if it's the writer.  If it isn't in the game, it doesn't count.  If he wanted that to be canon, he should have said it in the ending, but he didn't - can't make "metacomments" or else it minimizes the effectiveness of the ambiguity presented by leaving the information out.

Uhmm agreed... that is why this is my prefered ending  (shouldn't this also award the game edning achievement?)

The
comment on twitter does not affect the in game canon for me, but it
clearly shows the intention they had on this... being spiteful and
dismissive.

Modifié par Baronesa, 28 juin 2012 - 01:46 .

[Simocrates]

Aylyese wrote...

 

Zanza86 wrote...

I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt but after that reply I can tell you either didn't understand the logic that was explained rather clearly and just filled in your own blanks or you are trolling.

Rought translation - I have run out of constructive replies, so I am going to insult you instead.

Zanza86 wrote...
I think the catalyst asked you if you can blame fire for burning and you felt stupid.

Your argument is non-sequitur. 
Fire is not sentient, Reapers are.   

Another troll I see.

[thisisme8]

Baronesa wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

I don't think Bioware meant to malign this choice at all, the new Stargazer scene shows that intent in full force, choosing it still allows you to win by sacrificing our cycle.

If we only go by the in game info... it is great...


But then they HAD to go on twitter and say that the next cycle will use the crucible and pick one of the 3 options... that is spiteful, that is a big middle finger.

Specially since the in game scene clearly shows Liara telling them that the Crucible did not work... why would the previous cycle is telling them didn't work?

Uhmm agreed... that is why this is my prefered ending  (shouldn't this also award the game edning achievement?)

The comment on twitter does not affect the in game canon for me, but it clearly shows the intention they had on this... being spiteful and dismissive.

I could care less what someone says on twitter, even if it's the writer.  If it isn't in the game, it doesn't count.  If he wanted that to be canon, he should have said it in the ending, but he didn't - can't make "metacomments" or else it minimizes the effectiveness of the ambiguity presented by leaving the information out.

I think you messed up your quotes up there ^^^

Anyway, I think your bitterness is a partly your fault.  Instead of playing the game and enjoying the story, you choose to follow the writer on twitter and glean information on his intent and meaning.  The thing that is most beautiful and, dare I say supernatural, about writing is that regardless of the intended meaning, what you take from what you read is entirely dependant on you.  You can read a book and take an entirely different message than was intended, and as long as it affected you in one way or another, it was successfull - and right.

If you picked up the Dune books in 1980, they were a cool sci-fi romp with big space-worms, personal shields, and human computers.  If you read Dune in 1965 or in 2001-today, it reads more like a sci-fi telling of a desert people getting taken advantage of by larger corporations because of the natural resource they're sitting on...  middle-east?  Oil?  Dune?  Spice?  But a kid in the 80's (me) never saw that until I picked the books up again in 2002.

That book had 2 different meanings and changed across time!  Hell, Steven King described reading as a journey through time from when he wrote on paper to when you read it.  But instead of taking the wonder of storytelling at its most basic level of enjoyment, we can't seem to do that and we go on to twitter and read interviews and scour the web for leaks and bother the devs on the boards.  No wonder nobody is satisfied - you aren't coming to your own conclusions, your forcing the magic of storytelling into cheap parlour tricks.

I don't even know what I'm writing about at this point, but don't ask me since it feels like it would negate everything I just said.

[Merwanor]

If you think reject is the best ending, then you have no regard for life at all. If you have the power to save lots and lots of lives, and still you choose to not do anything, just because you want to stay true to your ideals, then you are a very selfish person.

[Icesong]

thisisme8 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

I don't think Bioware meant to malign this choice at all, the new Stargazer scene shows that intent in full force, choosing it still allows you to win by sacrificing our cycle.

If we only go by the in game info... it is great...


But then they HAD to go on twitter and say that the next cycle will use the crucible and pick one of the 3 options... that is spiteful, that is a big middle finger.

Specially since the in game scene clearly shows Liara telling them that the Crucible did not work... why would the previous cycle is telling them didn't work?

I could care less what someone says on twitter, even if it's the writer.  If it isn't in the game, it doesn't count.  If he wanted that to be canon, he should have said it in the ending, but he didn't - can't make "metacomments" or else it minimizes the effectiveness of the ambiguity presented by leaving the information out.

Dead authors don't exist here. Canon rules and Word of God is a declared part of ME's canon.

[PoisonMushroom]

Refuse is the same paragon choice that Bioware has given you time and time again. The only difference is that this time, Bioware decide that choosing it kills you.

[Xa1u5]

Merwanor wrote...

If you think reject is the best ending, then you have no regard for life at all. If you have the power to save lots and lots of lives, and still you choose to not do anything, just because you want to stay true to your ideals, then you are a very selfish person.

IMHO, this is not about "best", it never was. The choice you make has to make the story work for you. Some people go about this from a metagaming standpoint, full knowing the effects each ending has. It depends on how much you make your choice in the role of Shepard or yourself as the The Player... The Catalyst never achieved to convice me that there was not another solution. I don't say that this could've been won conventionally on the other hand. Afer making the choice to refuse, well, it seems there was no alternative, but I can live with that.

Modifié par Xa1u5, 28 juin 2012 - 02:18 .

[thisisme8]

Icesong wrote...

Dead authors don't exist here. Canon rules and Word of God is a declared part of ME's canon.

Apparently thinking for yourself doesn't either.

[Merwanor]

Xa1u5 wrote...

Merwanor wrote...

If you think reject is the best ending, then you have no regard for life at all. If you have the power to save lots and lots of lives, and still you choose to not do anything, just because you want to stay true to your ideals, then you are a very selfish person.

IMHO, this is not about "best", it never was. The choice you make has to make the story work for you. Some people go about this from a metagaming standpoint, full knowing the effects each ending has. It depends on how much you make your choice in the role of Shepard or yourself as the The Player... The Catalyst never achieved to convice me that there was not another solution. I don't say that this could've been won conventionally on the other hand. Afer making the choice to refuse, well, it seems there was no alternative, but I can live with that.

Yes of course, if it fits more to Shepard character, then reject might be the best ending. I always try and choose things in games that reflect my own morals and choices, so to me reject is not an option. But of course it will fit more for other players Shepard.

[Icesong]

thisisme8 wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Dead authors don't exist here. Canon rules and Word of God is a declared part of ME's canon.

Apparently thinking for yourself doesn't either.

Don't be absurd please. Canon can't be argued with. That's why it's canon.

[ahleung]

PoisonMushroom wrote...

Refuse is the same paragon choice that Bioware has given you time and time again. The only difference is that this time, Bioware decide that choosing it kills you.

Exactly.

Shepard refused Saren, Sovereign, and especially Illusive Man (just 10 minutes ago before meeting Catalyst), with slim chance to win everytime.

You thought Shepard was heroic for refusing them, because you knew Shepard would succeed.
You thought Shearpd was murderer for refusing Catalyst, because you knew Shepard would lose the war this time.

But Shepard didn't know that. He/She refused them just because of his/her belief, principles.

That's why "Refuse" is the most character-consistent ending for Shepard.

Modifié par ahleung, 28 juin 2012 - 03:40 .