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[Icesong]

thisisme8 wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Yes actually, you can be wrong about something and not know it. It's called ignorance; which isn't to say you're ignorant. Maybe I am. If dead author were in effect you would be right in your interpretation but that's not how it is for ME's canon.

I'm not missing what you're saying, in fact I'm addressing it directly and saying it doesn't apply here. This isn't Shakespeare.

You're missing what I'm saying because you can't seem to be able to define a story for its intended merits.  Say what you will, but until another Mass Effect game or novel comes out that defines what happened, a tweet is irrelevent to canon.

I really don't know why you keep trying to make me out to be some lowbrow who can't understand the experience you don't even know the name of, but that I've said repeatedly doesn't exist here.

You know, I wish I hadn't started this discussion because I'm starting to feel pedantic in repeating myself. I'm not "saying what I will", I'm saying what it is known. Canon is uniquely defined in each world. In some worlds it would be correct to disregard a tweet as non-canon because it's been declared such. In others it would be correct to disregard the books. For ME, to ignore those tweets would be no different than ignoring one of the games. Not that I'd blame anyone much if they did. I mean, it's twitter, right?

Modifié par Icesong, 29 juin 2012 - 02:47 .

[darknessmyown]

"I am going to end this war, and I won't sacrifice the soul of our species to do it." Those were Shepard's words, remember them. "I fight for freedom, Mine and everyone elses. I fight for the right to choose our own fate, and if i die, I'll die knowing i did every thing i could to stop you. And I'll die free." And then Shepard's word to star brat, the only thing that makes sense for him to say and do when put into this position. But more then that, Shepard rejecting the star brat's options isn't necessarily about not liking the options, it's about not choosing which pile of filth to roll in and instead choosing to stand tall, stand strong, and stand together. One of those messages that showed up a few times in playing the Mass Effect series, together we will find a way.

The star brat going "So be it" is really just him showing himself for what he is, a reaper, trying to make synthesis, the thing the reapers have been trying to accomplish all along, the most appealing decision, when it is FAR from. It is rape on the genetic level, it is forcing conformity on the universe because that is somehow the answer to war, making everyone the same. This is just one of the many, many flawed points in the star brat's "logic." But even putting that aside, star brat told you he is controlling the reapers, star brat told you he is responsible for all of the suffering and death not only in this cycle, but all those that came before. Why the f**k are we going to simply take his word for it? Everything related to the reapers to this point has been nothing but deception, subversion, and betrayals. Anyone that tried to believe the reapers or doing something with the reapers has been horribly wrong up to this point.

By trying to make the Green ending the most appealing visually, Bioware is going back on all of the ideas and principles that have been put forth by the other games and even this one. Javik himself talks about how the uniformity of his own cycle was their undoing and that the diversity in the present one is what would give them a chance to fight against the reapers. Never mind trying to imply in the Green ending that uniformity is best option for all is a very racist thought among other things.

Giving some thoughts to the other side of the argument though, it is something like Mordin said. Not guilty, but responsible. We are not the ones making the reapers bring about this suffering and death, that is star brat, but what we do have is a chance to stop it. That is where I pause for a moment to think. I was asked once if I would kill to end world hunger, I said,"no, but I would die to end world hunger." Choosing the Red ending means ending the cycle with the reapers forever, as far as we know at least. And it means choosing to sacrifice, the Geth that many of us chose to spare and re-unite with their creators, and EDI, our ship and a friend that many of us helped become more "human". But thinking on EDI, I recall her calling the reapers loathsome because "they value survival above all else."

My closing thoughts, saying that "we can't beat the reapers conventionally" is crap and just Bioware trying to sell their endings as "the only way", Reject aside since they seem to not like it. What is right and wrong is grey in only SOME ways and specific circumstances, what the reapers are doing is wrong, forcing the entire universe to conform to one uniform life is WRONG. Even if an idea is right, forcing others to accept it is wrong. So I think that Reject is the best choice in that it is the most logical and keeping with the character Shepard has come to be, rejecting Saron first and TIM just a minute ago. But if for some reason Shepard felt that star brat, leader of the reapers who specialize in deception and genecide and suffering, is really going to just let you stop all of its plans, then destroy becomes the next best option. It is why we came here and it is what everyone fighting with you signed on for.

[DamagedThoughts]

Of course Refusal is the best ending and the only one that makes a lick of sense when roleplaying Shepard.   Look at the 3 color options without the Bioware blinders on:

1.)  Control - Mindrape the entire Reaper civilization into absolute obedience to one mortal, with a side-order of implied mass slavery.

2.) Synthesis - Forcibly alter the most basic building blocks of all life in the galaxy, permanently interfering in the destiny and evolution of every living thing in roughly 100,000 lightyears; genetic rape or eugenics gone mad to suit your tastes.

3.) Destroy - Admittedly, you do kill off the murderous Reapers, but with the entire Geth civilization and your personal friend EDI as collateral damage.  Congragulations, you are now possibly the greatest murderer in organic history; certainly you hold that title for this cycle.


Keep in mind, the only reason you know about these three choices is because your enemy claims to have been unwittingly altered by the Cruible interfacing with the station.  You have no means of determining the truth of any of the starkid's statements and the fact that it has not immediately ordered a cease-fire/retreat by his forces to relieve you of time pressure indicates he has no regrets about the ongoing slaughter occurring around you.  You have no reason to believe this little space-Hitler and no way to verify any of its proclamations besides the fact that you are bleeding out all over the deck while speaking with an opponent known for brainwashing victims.  Rejecting anything coming out of space-Hitler's mouth is the only sane, safe, sensible choice unless you bring meta-game knowledge into play, which just means you wanted the prettiest cutscene ending.

[ahleung]

DamagedThoughts wrote...

Of course Refusal is the best ending and the only one that makes a lick of sense when roleplaying Shepard.   Look at the 3 color options without the Bioware blinders on:

1.)  Control - Mindrape the entire Reaper civilization into absolute obedience to one mortal, with a side-order of implied mass slavery.

2.) Synthesis - Forcibly alter the most basic building blocks of all life in the galaxy, permanently interfering in the destiny and evolution of every living thing in roughly 100,000 lightyears; genetic rape or eugenics gone mad to suit your tastes.

3.) Destroy - Admittedly, you do kill off the murderous Reapers, but with the entire Geth civilization and your personal friend EDI as collateral damage.  Congragulations, you are now possibly the greatest murderer in organic history; certainly you hold that title for this cycle.


Keep in mind, the only reason you know about these three choices is because your enemy claims to have been unwittingly altered by the Cruible interfacing with the station.  You have no means of determining the truth of any of the starkid's statements and the fact that it has not immediately ordered a cease-fire/retreat by his forces to relieve you of time pressure indicates he has no regrets about the ongoing slaughter occurring around you.  You have no reason to believe this little space-Hitler and no way to verify any of its proclamations besides the fact that you are bleeding out all over the deck while speaking with an opponent known for brainwashing victims.  Rejecting anything coming out of space-Hitler's mouth is the only sane, safe, sensible choice unless you bring meta-game knowledge into play, which just means you wanted the prettiest cutscene ending.

I have asked this even before EC: what's the hurry?
As soon as Catalyst decided to let Shepard choose, the war has already ended.
Catalyst controls Reapers, he can tell all Reapers to freeze immediately.

They can at least wait for the armada to get back their homeworld before blowing up all the Mass Relays.

For Synthesis, they can even create a biosynthetic lifeform solely for triggering Synthesis. Shepard's sacrifice is really unnecessary.

Now in the new dialogues of EC, Catalyst kept saying there was no time left, but still failed to give any reason why.

[Dr_Brilliant]

Shepard has always made decisions for the greater good, look at the Arrival DLC. Shepard destroys an entire Batarien star system to simply delay the Reapers, To take them out entirely, sacrificing the Geth, as awesome as they are, is a small price to pay to save the rest of the galaxy.

[Evercrow]

The problem with Destroy ending in my eyes is this:

Now you give all synthetics a REAL reason to hate organics and eliminate them as immediate threat.Imagine if even one AI survived that explosion(hell,just some truthfull historical archive would do), and one day in the future it communicates with the network of synthetics.
Congratulations, you might saved your cycle and destroyed reapers, but you doomed your stupid descendants who decided to rely on their tech too much."Behold the new, more cruel Reapers! Lets call them Gravetakers.". That one creepy thought keeps me from being happy with Destroy.

Now look at the actual change in endings.

Yes, devs put Refusal in a bad light except for Stargazer scene, but imagine possibilities: galaxy is still united.
If one distant Prothean research colony managed to hack Citadel, leave warning VI and crypt some info in loads of beacons across galaxy, and preserve many people in sleeper pods(they just ran a little short on batteries),what could united forces of whole galaxy do(at least what's left of them)?How much information,resources and people in cryo they can live behind?
Especially with people like Shepard, or at least his teammates leading them and giving them hope and purpose.
Also,it would be nice for this ending if Shepard connects to Hackett and ask him to damage or destroy Citadel(by blowing up Crucible,for example,or ramming it with a dreadnought),than get the hell out: "The Crucible was red herring all along" or something.Oh,wait, that damages the artistic integrity.Silly me.

[xefiroEA]

F00lishG wrote...

Reject Shepards I have a question: Why is it so hard to see that the you basically won when you meet the Catalyst? He will stand and do nothing and you can destroy all the Reapers. Red Option. Depending on your EMS the relays won't even be destroyed.

Is it because he told you the choice existed, thus taking away the power of something you were going to do anyways? Is that it?

Is it because the idea of a Giant supeweapon merging with the Reaper Boss A.I. too much for you to handle? Is that it?

I genuinely want to know. Because I cannot see preferring genocide and ascension to destroying the enemy that you sworn to do since ME1.

There is a clear split that we must consider first. You either trust the Catalyst, or you don't. Hindsight, knowing how the game ends, is not the issue here. We must watch it from Shepard's perspective. By meeting the Catalyst, it becomes clear that the Crucible itself was part of the Reaper's plan. How else could a device that interacts with the Catalyst be designed, if no one knew it existed in the first place? The cycles may have improved it over time, but remember that the technological development of those cycles was guided, same as this cycle, by discovering the mass relays and using the Citadel as seat of theiir goverment.

The Crucible was the Reapers' weapon, not the cycles'. When you get the most EMS, you get the synthesis option. Which means that building it right results in what the Reapers were planning all along.

So, do you trust that the reapers' device is yours, and not a booby trap aimed to distract resources from the war effort? Do you trust that you are not in the hold of indoctrination somehow, and being made to believe that doing what the reapers want is the right choice?

If you feel you can't trust this weapon to do what the catalyst says it's going to do, then Reject is the only choice. Because you don't know what will happen if you choose the other ones.

Or maybe the crucible really is something the reapers didn't know about. Maybe the catalyst has no clue what the crucible does either, and is bull****ting to get you to either jump into the plasma beam, blow up something important or grab two high tension wires to electrocute you, when all you had to do was find a console and fire. I mean, who the hell designs a tool that kills the operator needlessly? Why not put a switch somewhere instead?

So, you have Reject if you don't trust the Catalyst.

Let's assume Shepard believes the Catalyst, possibly because blood loss made him more malleable. Red option is not viable because it requires betraying friends and allies. The geth and EDI die, the catalyst says as much. As such, it's the wrong option to take.

If you are fueled by the desire to destroy the reapers above all else, Control seems the better choice. Again believing the Catalyst (you either believe that he is honest or you don't and choose reject), then by taking over them you eliminate everything that made them them, and replace it with your will. The reapers as they were exist no more. Instead you now have their power and knowledge, fueled by the desire to rebuild and protect. The very antithesis of what the reapers embodied. You don't just kill them, you erase them. There is no further sacrifice, no betrayal of allies.

Knowing how the game ends, I have to say Control is the best option. Without knowing it, meaning in Shepard's shoes, I'd go with refuse.

[xefiroEA]

darknessmyown wrote...
But if for some reason Shepard felt that star brat, leader of the reapers who specialize in deception and genecide and suffering, is really going to just let you stop all of its plans, then destroy becomes the next best option. It is why we came here and it is what everyone fighting with you signed on for.

Why would you believe that he was lying about Synthesis and Control, but being truthful about destroy? If he hadn't told you what to do, would 'shooting a pipe' seem like the reasonable thing to do? Hell, he never even tells you how to activate it. You get a vision of Anderson shooting it. Yeah, let's trust these odd visions telling us what to do. That sounds nothing like indoctrination.