332 réponses à ce sujet

[PaoloModica]

Oransel wrote...

Samurai_Smartie wrote...

So what. They explain in detail why theyre "annihilating you". Not for the purpose of actually destroying you, no they try to preserve.
And theyre offering you new ways of ending this obviously flawed cycle. But you refuse, because youre too ignorant, too narrow minded to try and understand the being you call "enemies", because they want something else than you. Talk about empathy and the subjective view on what is "right" and what is "wrong".
Refusal includes so many implications. If you actually accept the theme that is laid out under the ending, technological singularity, then picking the refusal option means you volutarily shaft the next cycle, as with your help they may be able to "repel" the reapers (its not said what actually happens) but they will then inevitably reach the technological singularity that the reapers tried to avoid, possibly creating all new super-reapers.
Youre just continuing the cycle on a bigger scale. I still claim its simply a dumb move.

Question is, why are you trusting your enemy which is using mind manipulations and lies all the time?

'Cause he has no reason to lie to you this time.
He's winning and he knows that.
You don't know how to fire the crucible and he knows that.
He simply can do nothing and will automatically win, like at the end of the refusal option.

Instead he comes and gives to you information.
Maybe lies, but why?
To trick you?
He doesn't need to trick you, the victory is in his hands.
He tells you about the destroy option.
Actually He gives you 3 choices.
Why?
He could simply lie, say that he is the crucible navigator (you don't even know the citadel has a mind until he reveals himself) and telling you only the one choice that he wants like "Just jump into that beam, and you'll destroy the reapers, hurry, you'll not even die!" and instead is the (destroy all organics)

And remember...
Is a fact, the reapers do not destroy the not evolved species.
If they wanted to obliterate the organic life once and for all, they had 10000000 occasions
Why should he trick you this time?
Why a choice?
Why revealing himself as the reaper creator and leader? (for what you know until then, the harbinger is the leader, and he's out there, fighting)

[DistantUtopia]

Samurai_Smartie wrote...

So what. They explain in detail why theyre "annihilating you". Not for the purpose of actually destroying you, no they try to preserve.
And theyre offering you new ways of ending this obviously flawed cycle. But you refuse, because youre too ignorant, too narrow minded to try and understand the being you call "enemies", because they want something else than you. Talk about empathy and the subjective view on what is "right" and what is "wrong".
Refusal includes so many implications. If you actually accept the theme that is laid out under the ending, technological singularity, then picking the refusal option means you volutarily shaft the next cycle, as with your help they may be able to "repel" the reapers (its not said what actually happens) but they will then inevitably reach the technological singularity that the reapers tried to avoid, possibly creating all new super-reapers.
Youre just continuing the cycle on a bigger scale. I still claim its simply a dumb move.

I guess the question here is "who" are we talking about?  As a player? As the character?

Both as a player and my character, I can't accept the technological singularity as my Shepard was able to broker peace between the Geth and Quarians.  On a separate playthrough where my Shepard is different?  Sure, I can RP him picking one of the choices offered.  There is no real "best" ending, in my opinion.

Also, based on the Catalyst's own dialog, the issue of an inevitable Technological Singularity seems flawed.

1.) Catalyst explains it was created to broker peace between Synthetics and Organics
2.) Catalyst says that didn't work.
3.) Catalyst says it started the "cycle" with its own creators, turning them into the first Reaper.

I'm speculating at this point but it is never explained how "old" the Catalyst's creator race is (old in the how long have they been around before reaperization versus how many billion years ago did they die).  Unless they've been around for several "cycles" worth of history with Synthetics, I can only really see a handful of Synthetic races that may have appeared during the creator's lifetime.  Not enough data, in my opinion, to conclude that the "war" is inevitable.  So by that logic, my Shepard "can't" believe that future generations will make the same mistake; he believes that life is better than that.

[the slynx]

Good read, OP.

I'm confused why the refusal option is even included in the Extended Cut, if it's only included as a means to show how terrible the writers in charge believe it is - it's an ending that ends in abrupt defeat that isn't even treated to proper cinematics. It's almost as if including it was a means to rebut critics. I also don't like that the refusal is treated as though that's the end of for that line of reasoning, rather than the beginning of another avenue of attack. It's as if the writers wanted to portray refusal as weakness, not strength. Several fans have come up with much better scenarios for a refusal option.

I wrote some more about this stuff in a similar post here.

[ArchLord James]

Oransel wrote...

Samurai_Smartie wrote...

So what. They explain in detail why theyre "annihilating you". Not for the purpose of actually destroying you, no they try to preserve.
And theyre offering you new ways of ending this obviously flawed cycle. But you refuse, because youre too ignorant, too narrow minded to try and understand the being you call "enemies", because they want something else than you. Talk about empathy and the subjective view on what is "right" and what is "wrong".
Refusal includes so many implications. If you actually accept the theme that is laid out under the ending, technological singularity, then picking the refusal option means you volutarily shaft the next cycle, as with your help they may be able to "repel" the reapers (its not said what actually happens) but they will then inevitably reach the technological singularity that the reapers tried to avoid, possibly creating all new super-reapers.
Youre just continuing the cycle on a bigger scale. I still claim its simply a dumb move.

Question is, why are you trusting your enemy which is using mind manipulations and lies all the time?

You dont have to trust, or believe. As the catalyst says. Your belief is not required! You will die whether you believe him or not. Thats besides the point. The point is you dont really have any other options. And if he just wanted shepard to die why bring him up the magic elevator? Why not just let him bleed out next to anderson? Why explain in detail the reapers and catalysts origins to shepard? It doesn't make sense to do all this if it really just wants to trick shepard and keep him away from the destroy option. Most importantly, these choices, these new solutions aren't really the reapers solutions. As the catalyst explains, the crucible is forcing these endings (RGB) on him as much as they are being forced on shepard. Click bottom right option during control explanation, the catalyst says "I am not looking forward to being replaced by you (you as in shepard) but I have no choice).

[PaoloModica]

ArchLord James wrote...

Oransel wrote...

Samurai_Smartie wrote...

So what. They explain in detail why theyre "annihilating you". Not for the purpose of actually destroying you, no they try to preserve.
And theyre offering you new ways of ending this obviously flawed cycle. But you refuse, because youre too ignorant, too narrow minded to try and understand the being you call "enemies", because they want something else than you. Talk about empathy and the subjective view on what is "right" and what is "wrong".
Refusal includes so many implications. If you actually accept the theme that is laid out under the ending, technological singularity, then picking the refusal option means you volutarily shaft the next cycle, as with your help they may be able to "repel" the reapers (its not said what actually happens) but they will then inevitably reach the technological singularity that the reapers tried to avoid, possibly creating all new super-reapers.
Youre just continuing the cycle on a bigger scale. I still claim its simply a dumb move.

Question is, why are you trusting your enemy which is using mind manipulations and lies all the time?

You dont have to trust, or believe. As the catalyst says. Your belief is not required! You will die whether you believe him or not. Thats besides the point. The point is you dont really have any other options. And if he just wanted shepard to die why bring him up the magic elevator? Why not just let him bleed out next to anderson? Why explain in detail the reapers and catalysts origins to shepard? It doesn't make sense to do all this if it really just wants to trick shepard and keep him away from the destroy option. Most importantly, these choices, these new solutions aren't really the reapers solutions. As the catalyst explains, the crucible is forcing these endings (RGB) on him as much as they are being forced on shepard. Click bottom right option during control explanation, the catalyst says "I am not looking forward to being replaced by you (you as in shepard) but I have no choice).

Exactly

[MadRabbit999]

Reject? No thanks, I rather be a selfish human-god, and spare the lives of everyone in the galaxy and look after them.

Your logic OP is nonsense, by this definition I can say: I am firing a gun in a straight line in front of me, aiming at no one, it is your fault if you put yourself in the way, I did not kill you, you did it yourself.

Shepard had the choice of stopping trillion of people from dying, but instead choose the stubborn middle finger way, and everyone paid the consequences.

[OriginalNameGuy]

I really don't get this whole "Bioware is just trying to spite us" attitude. Do you guys have to see a conspiracy in everything they do? If they wanted to give you the finger for choosing this option then they would have included a game over screen after picking it. They have to balance the endings and they can't have the reject ending being far and away the best one which it would be if the Reapers could be defeated conventionally.

[Erixxxx]

torudoom wrote...

I'm confused why the refusal option is even included in the Extended Cut

People asked for an option where they could refuse the Catalyst. Some even wanted a scene that shows the next cycle used Liara's information to defeat the Reapers. We got that. Bioware listens to it's fanbase.

Could it have been spelled out better? Sure. But go blame the damn Xbox DLC size limit for that.

[ThatDancingTurian]

OriginalNameGuy wrote...

I really don't get this whole "Bioware is just trying to spite us" attitude. Do you guys have to see a conspiracy in everything they do? If they wanted to give you the finger for choosing this option then they would have included a game over screen after picking it. They have to balance the endings and they can't have the reject ending being far and away the best one which it would be if the Reapers could be defeated conventionally.

Oh come on, the Starchild will tell you how to kill it and all its tools without so much a blink and then goes all Harbinger angry voice when you choose to let its own solution continue.

[Lieber]

So you'll ignore the sacrifice of your friends that died to make sure the war will end, just to keep your honor intact?

Sajuro wrote...

Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask them if honor matters... their silence will be your answer.

For me, Destroy is the best option but also the hardest of them all. The galaxy goes back to what it was like before the Reapers at the cost of EDI, the Geth and all other synthetic life. But Shepard knew the costs of this war, EDI did and so did the Geth. They are machines and in a way, can be recreated (though it's a bad idea since Shepard isn't here to prevent a war).

If Rejection is what you chose then so be it. For me, you lose the trust of Admiral Hackett, Anderson, your whole damn crew and the people that died to help you.

[Baronesa]

Great OP.

Here are some random thoughts

I'm surprised that people still accept that the technological singularity IS A BAD THING.

it is an UNKNOWN. In the setting it has never happened. In reality it has not happened yet. And in reality opinions about it are divided.

You can't trust the Reapers and their motives are irrelevant in face of their actions. Genocide after genocide after genocide.

The premise that synthetics would wipe out organics has no support whatsoever and in fact you have evidence that contradicts it.

Reject is the best option from a complete immersion POV. If your Shepard does not trust the Reapers, the ONLY possible option is to reject their solutions.

Destroy is a second good option... but not a moral one. You destroy your enemies at the cost of friends and allies... you become a genocidal monster, you win but the catalyst goes out smiling... they may lose but they turned you into a monster as reprehensible as them.

Modifié par Baronesa, 27 juin 2012 - 12:36 .

[the slynx]

Erixxxx wrote...

People asked for an option where they could refuse the Catalyst. Some even wanted a scene that shows the next cycle used Liara's information to defeat the Reapers. We got that. Bioware listens to it's fanbase.

Could it have been spelled out better? Sure. But go blame the damn Xbox DLC size limit for that.

True to a point, but the reason many people asked for it was to portray Shepard as not being a passive character willing to accede blindly to whatever some random enemy leader tells him at the last moment. If they weren't able to put that in there, it shouldn't have been in there at all because it contradicts the very impulse behind those initial criticisms and suggestions. It makes Shepard look weaker and more pathetic. There were plenty of refusal options floating around that weren't so flimsy.

[OriginalNameGuy]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

OriginalNameGuy wrote...

I really don't get this whole "Bioware is just trying to spite us" attitude. Do you guys have to see a conspiracy in everything they do? If they wanted to give you the finger for choosing this option then they would have included a game over screen after picking it. They have to balance the endings and they can't have the reject ending being far and away the best one which it would be if the Reapers could be defeated conventionally.

Oh come on, the Starchild will tell you how to kill it and all its tools without so much a blink and then goes all Harbinger angry voice when you choose to let its own solution continue.

The Starchild admits its solution is flawed and presents you three ways to improve it including one it really wants(Synthesis) Why wouldn't the Starchild get angry after you throw it all back in its face? and he doesn't do it "without so much a blink" Some of his new dialogue includes him saying "I don't look forward to being replaced by you"

[Baronesa]

torudoom wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

People asked for an option where they could refuse the Catalyst. Some even wanted a scene that shows the next cycle used Liara's information to defeat the Reapers. We got that. Bioware listens to it's fanbase.

Could it have been spelled out better? Sure. But go blame the damn Xbox DLC size limit for that.

True to a point, but the reason many people asked for it was to portray Shepard as not being a passive character willing to accede blindly to whatever some random enemy leader tells him at the last moment. If they weren't able to put that in there, it shouldn't have been in there at all because it contradicts the very impulse behind those initial criticisms and suggestions. It makes Shepard look weaker and more pathetic. There were plenty of refusal options floating around that weren't so flimsy.

All the people asking for refusal also said that EMS should be factored on the results of said refusal... too low? you get wiped out. Very high you win, albeit with heavy loses. But they prefered to ignore the part where EMS would actually mean something. (I would have played lots of MP to be above 9000 EMS if needed)

[Oransel]

ArchLord James wrote...
You dont have to trust, or believe. As the catalyst says. Your belief is not required! You will die whether you believe him or not. Thats besides the point. The point is you dont really have any other options. And if he just wanted shepard to die why bring him up the magic elevator? Why not just let him bleed out next to anderson? Why explain in detail the reapers and catalysts origins to shepard? It doesn't make sense to do all this if it really just wants to trick shepard and keep him away from the destroy option. Most importantly, these choices, these new solutions aren't really the reapers solutions. As the catalyst explains, the crucible is forcing these endings (RGB) on him as much as they are being forced on shepard. Click bottom right option during control explanation, the catalyst says "I am not looking forward to being replaced by you (you as in shepard) but I have no choice).

Sorry, but his logic is still horribly twisted, even for an ancient alien AI. He wants to find a solution to a problem which is not a problem to begin with, but he creates some surrogate of that problem to deal with that problem which is not a problem. And that's where the problems begin. He looks like an insane psycho, absolutely unreliable. If this AI has severe problems with comprehension of what is going on or was going on, Shepard can't believe any of the choices he is offered won't make situation worse. He may say and do whatever he wants, it will have no sense (reason behind this is his existence as a Deus Ex Machina from Matrix). If you have 3 choices offered by something truly insane/alien, unreliable and very very dangerous and have an option for a small chance to win without this kind of risk... I'd go with conventional.

[Vznzsixr]

Considering what we're shown in the concluding cinematics, I don't think Starchild is winning anymore at the moment you meet him.
Sure, his reaper pawns were (and still are) defeating the fleet, but once the crucible is attached it's ultimately gameover for him and he probably knows it (but we don't).
Assuming he's saying the truth (while probably still withholding key information about the crucible whereabouts), my opinion is that it is forced to offer you the three choices, even though he's probably fine with only one (synthesis, maybe two if we include control ?) of those.

It's quite possible that starchild is manipulating you into selecting synthesis or reject so that it can go on with the merry cycle continuation. If it really wanted to offer you the synthesis choices to begin with, why relocate the citadel to Earth solar system ?

[the slynx]

Baronesa wrote...

All the people asking for refusal also said that EMS should be factored on the results of said refusal... too low? you get wiped out. Very high you win, albeit with heavy loses. But they prefered to ignore the part where EMS would actually mean something. (I would have played lots of MP to be above 9000 EMS if needed)

Agreed.

For those who aren't familiar with some of the rejection ideas people were coming up with, check out this thread. The stuff in there is generally much better than what made it into the Extended Cut.

You do, however, point out the weakness in that line of thinking: to get high EMS, you really need to play MP, and that should be separate from solo play, at least in my mind.

[Seasiderben]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...
There is zero proof of that. There's not even any proof that anyone even finds Liara's capsule.

LOL, such blind denial.

The final scene is just a recording of Liara speaking in a bunker. There is no one else in the room we can see. For all we know it's just on a loop.

If you actually watch the ENTIRE ending, there stargazer scene is completely different, using members of the next cycle who state that without the information in the Archives, and about Shepard, they would not have been able to defeat the reapers.

[Baronesa]

Seasiderben wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...
There is zero proof of that. There's not even any proof that anyone even finds Liara's capsule.

LOL, such blind denial.

The final scene is just a recording of Liara speaking in a bunker. There is no one else in the room we can see. For all we know it's just on a loop.

If you actually watch the ENTIRE ending, there stargazer scene is completely different, using members of the next cycle who state that without the information in the Archives, and about Shepard, they would not have been able to defeat the reapers.

And more important... the information is that THE CRUCIBLE DOES NOT WORK... so if the next cycle defeats the Reapers it is in their own terms, no RGB choice... no crucible. If Liara informs them that the thing does nothing, then they would surely won't waste time and resources on it.

[richard_rider]

Baronesa wrote...

And more important... the information is that THE CRUCIBLE DOES NOT WORK... so if the next cycle defeats the Reapers it is in their own terms, no RGB choice... no crucible. If Liara informs them that the thing does nothing, then they would surely won't waste time and resources on it.

Yeah, they would've probably united all the space faring races, built up their fleets, bulk up their defenses, use improved weaponry, and defeat the reapers "conventionally".

True victory > enemy DEM space magic

[M Hedonist]

Agree on most points. Reject is my favorite ending, too.

[iamthedave3]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Reject? No thanks, I rather be a selfish human-god, and spare the lives of everyone in the galaxy and look after them.

Your logic OP is nonsense, by this definition I can say: I am firing a gun in a straight line in front of me, aiming at no one, it is your fault if you put yourself in the way, I did not kill you, you did it yourself.

Shepard had the choice of stopping trillion of people from dying, but instead choose the stubborn middle finger way, and everyone paid the consequences.

But Shepherd always chooses the 'stubborn middle finger' way. And wins. Everywhere else in the story.

That's what action heroes do, as a whole.

[MadRabbit999]

iamthedave3 wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Reject? No thanks, I rather be a selfish human-god, and spare the lives of everyone in the galaxy and look after them.

Your logic OP is nonsense, by this definition I can say: I am firing a gun in a straight line in front of me, aiming at no one, it is your fault if you put yourself in the way, I did not kill you, you did it yourself.

Shepard had the choice of stopping trillion of people from dying, but instead choose the stubborn middle finger way, and everyone paid the consequences.

But Shepherd always chooses the 'stubborn middle finger' way. And wins. Everywhere else in the story.

That's what action heroes do, as a whole.

Well what about when he choses to have sex with Morinth? "Screw death, I can take this!" BOOM! Dead,

I am sure there are other examples.

But if your actions would never have serious consequences, it would diminish their impact I think.

[ShdwFox7]

   Amazing, well thought out post. My problem with the endings isn't the endings themselves, but simply the premise of it all. We're told that a race of stupid people and stupid synthetics chose to create this cycle because of some failed logic (that synthetics and organics always fight each other). But considering that the established cannon of the ME-universe clearly shows examples of times when synthetics and organics get along, this logic makes no sense. Therefore, the final conclusion, and the argument that comes with it (that something must be done to stop this "endless" cycle), of the story becomes petty and belittled for it. It's this premise that's just so disappointing.

Modifié par ShdwFox7, 27 juin 2012 - 01:10 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Bioware chose to spite the ending by having the galaxy get annihilated by the Reapers (regardless of EMS score), and that a later civilization will break the cycle (implying they chose Red, Blue, or Green).

Well, no. Liara, unlike the protheans, managed to produce a time capsule that can actually be understood by whoever found them (by not assuming that everyone would have your brand of space magic telepathy). It's conceivable that this allowed whoever found them to meaningfully prepare for the upcoming conflict, and thus win.

I know that's sophistry to some degree, but still.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 27 juin 2012 - 01:19 .