165 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Bagenholt wrote...
Seriously? Considering the world as I know it could end without this man I'd live and bare with it. Keep your cunning high then what is the problem? stay one pace ahead and we can always finish the job later.

This is utter, utter bull**** argumnet that keps repeating tiself despite being moronic.
No, the world will not end without Loghain. That is utter nonsense. If you can make Loghain a grey Warden, you can make someone else a grey warden. Instead of submitting him to the Joining, why not submit someone else? You've got 4-5 whole armies camped nearby, you wouldn't be lacking skileld recruits.

Yes, trusting Loghain is foolish. Very foolish because he suddenly trust you after you defeted him. What kind of logic is that?
"You're an orlesian spy! I will fight you to the death!"
*one short defeat later*
"You bested me. CLEARLY you cannot be an orlesian spy. I trust you now. I'm happy to leve Ferelden to you."

Ok...WTF??? WTF?? Eother Loghian is insane, or the writers were on something when they wrote that.
And where did the archdemon blood come fro manyway? Roidan said it was stolen. And if you had the blood, why only make Loghain a GW?
If you only had enough for one person - WHY IN THE HELL HIM??? The man is downright insane and he broken his oaths to people that were far closer to him (Cailan). He his stil lhas some influence and enough fanatical followers to stab you in the back at a critical moment.
Why no Ser Cauthrien? Ser Perth? Or any of the hunderd other capable knights?

Really...If anything in the game is broken than it must be the end, Landsmeet and after that.

[Darthnemesis2]

So... you b*tch because Alistair doesn't want to make decisions, but then you b*tch when he stands up for himself. You call him whiny because he disagrees with you, dispite the fact that he's right. And you call him a traitor for leaving when you are the one who invited the scum of Thedas to join the Wardens. Yeah... that makes sense....

[kormesios]

He's OK.  He's a follower, as he himself admits.  He knows his limitations.  This doesn't mean he has no opinions or can't come to his own judgments.
He's also quite personable, and demonstrates quite a bit of resolve--his building enthusiasm after the slaughter at Ostagar was actually kind of infectious, my first play through.
I've never encountered his fit if you pardon Loghain, OTOH I tend to agree with him about the man's fate, so I actually give him props for one of the things that really seems to ****** off his critics. Indeed, I'd say his moral compass is set a lot better than most of the other party members.

DariusKalera wrote...
Its not that he has issues with it, its how he brings it up.  He throws a tantrum back in camp afterwards. 

My first play through I killed Isolde because I did not want to kill the child.  I did not know at the time that you could leave, do the mage's tower, come back, and not have any bad repercussions. 

Afterwards he comes up and whines about the decision saying that there must have been another way.  Well, it was either Option A, kill the mom, or Option B, kill the kid, there was no Option C. 

But yes, there was an option C.  You missed it, as you said yourself.

He gave up all rights in questioning the hard decisions when he decided he was not willing to make them himself.

Sorry, that's not how it works.  You don't get to make mistakes and then say "I'm the leader, don't criticize me."  Especially when someone dies.

[Apophis2412]

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

So... you b*tch because Alistair doesn't want to make decisions, but then you b*tch when he stands up for himself. You call him whiny because he disagrees with you, dispite the fact that he's right. And you call him a traitor for leaving when you are the one who invited the scum of Thedas to join the Wardens. Yeah... that makes sense....

That Loghain was scum is irrelevant. He is still Ferelden's greatest general. He is useful to have on your side. 

[Squiggles1334]

I think it's time we all just accept that nobody's going to agree 100% with how another person role-played their own character in the privacy of their own home and will be compelled to call each other out on such shenanigans.

[Darthnemesis2]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

So... you b*tch because Alistair doesn't want to make decisions, but then you b*tch when he stands up for himself. You call him whiny because he disagrees with you, dispite the fact that he's right. And you call him a traitor for leaving when you are the one who invited the scum of Thedas to join the Wardens. Yeah... that makes sense....

That Loghain was scum is irrelevant. He is still Ferelden's greatest general. He is useful to have on your side. 

Ferelden's greatest General who quit the field during the most critical battle. Ferelden's greatest General who left his King to die. Ferelden's greatest General who betrayed the Order you are now forcing him to join. Ferelden's greatest General who lied, cheated, and assassinated his way into power all at the expense of the very Country he is 'protecting'. Sorry, but there really is no excuse for letting him live.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Apophis2412 wrote...

That Loghain was scum is irrelevant. He is still Ferelden's greatest general. He is useful to have on your side. 

As usefull as the plauge..or siphilis. What usefulness? If you spare him, he's not leading armies and plotting strategies, he's with you fighting in melee. And there's no shortage of good fighters in Ferelden you could recruit insted of him.
 

[adembroski11]

Something to think about... how many who feel it's wrong to make Loghain a Grey Warden freed Sten?

Modifié par adembroski11, 15 décembre 2009 - 08:34 .

[kormesios]

Apophis2412 wrote...
That Loghain was scum is irrelevant. He is still Ferelden's greatest general. He is useful to have on your side. 

I know if you spare him, he does stay on your side; but that's video game convention as much as anything.  The reasoning why he wouldn't revert to plan A (kill the Wardens, seize the throne for himself, bring the Bannorn in line, and then if he has energy fight the darkspawn) after the joining was unvconvincing.
After all, my characters did the joining, and vengeance ranked very high on their to-do list.

[KariTR]

Mueller86 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

The only reason to put Alistair on the throne is if you have a female PC to marry him and pull his strings. Anora sure doesn't need to deal with changing his diapers on top of running the country and if you put him alone on the throne you might as well leave ferelden without a king/queen because he just ignores his responsibilities anyway and we never find out who makes the real decisions.....maybe the Orlesians do.....he wouldn't know the difference.

If you harden his personality he makes a really good king.

He can become a really good king even if not hardened.

I've just finished an all male playthrough and Alistair is a lot less whiney with no mother-figure around. I chose to save Connor in this playthrough and while I can understand some players being niggled that Alistair loses it when you kill an abomination just because he is a minor, your PC has to be pretty one-minded to ignore the "Is there no other option?" question that the dialogue tree throws up a trillion times. I was probably more annoyed when Alistair disapproved of me killing Brother Genitivi. The guy was never going to make it out of Haven alive anyway

Alistair symbolises my conscience, there to make me aware that when my PC does something bad I know about it. If he is a tool, I guess he is Bioware's tool, there to make you examine your actions. If that illicits an emotional response in the player - negative or positive - then it's a job well done.

[Caprasia]

Darthnemesis2 wrote...
Sorry, but there really is no excuse for letting him live.

Sorry, but there is.

It's called 'welcome to my world' just before you take the killing blow on the Archdemon. 

Time for you (Loghain) to experience some of what I've had to endure, partly at your hands, have fun in the Deep Roads.

[kormesios]

adembroski11 wrote...

Something to think about... how many who feel it's wrong to make Loghain a Grey Warden freed Sten?

The crime level isn't even similar.
Sten was a crime of passion, while  Loghain was premeditated.  Loghain killed more people, and connived in the torture and slavery of others.  Loghain's crimes had worse consequences for the kingdom.  Sten immediately repented, Loghain tried to cover them up.

[Apophis2412]

kormesios wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...
That Loghain was scum is irrelevant. He is still Ferelden's greatest general. He is useful to have on your side. 

I know if you spare him, he does stay on your side; but that's video game convention as much as anything.  The reasoning why he wouldn't revert to plan A (kill the Wardens, seize the throne for himself, bring the Bannorn in line, and then if he has energy fight the darkspawn) after the joining was unvconvincing.
After all, my characters did the joining, and vengeance ranked very high on their to-do list.

Vengeance? What does vengeance matter? You have a Blight to stop.

If Loghain joins the Warden than most of his followers will do the same. Killing him will just make them your enemies.

People have asked why Loghain would stay loyal. Firstly most of his major allies are either dead (Howe), or have joined the Warden (Cauthrien, Anora, several Bannorn lords).
But above all, he loves Ferelden. He will aid you because he needs you (and the army that you bring) to stop the Darkspawn.

[Apophis2412]

Caprasia wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...
Sorry, but there really is no excuse for letting him live.

Sorry, but there is.

It's called 'welcome to my world' just before you take the killing blow on the Archdemon. 

Time for you (Loghain) to experience some of what I've had to endure, partly at your hands, have fun in the Deep Roads.

You are a Gray Warden. You stop Blights. All else is irrelevant.

[Darthnemesis2]

Caprasia wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...
Sorry, but there really is no excuse for letting him live.

Sorry, but there is.

It's called 'welcome to my world' just before you take the killing blow on the Archdemon. 

Time for you (Loghain) to experience some of what I've had to endure, partly at your hands, have fun in the Deep Roads.

No. its called F you, time to meet Mr. sword.

At that point in time, after everything he's done, both to the country and the PC personally he deserves nothing less. Turning him into a Grey Warden is bad enough, but then not letting him take the final blow is just... how can you do that?

@Apophis2412

I can stop the Blight just fine by myself thanks. Loghain has in no way shown himself to be capable of this feat. All he's done is abandon the army, betray the king, slander the Wardens to the point of making them public enemy #1, and try to forward his own goals at the expense of the entire country. That is not a man I want standing beside me when the sh*t hits the fan, and certainly not one who I would trust to make the ultimate sacrifice himself.

Modifié par Darthnemesis2, 15 décembre 2009 - 08:47 .

[catofnine]

Apophis2412 wrote...
You are a Gray Warden. You stop Blights. All else is irrelevant.

Bingo.

It's why Alistair let me down.

[Caprasia]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Caprasia wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...
Sorry, but there really is no excuse for letting him live.

Sorry, but there is.

It's called 'welcome to my world' just before you take the killing blow on the Archdemon. 

Time for you (Loghain) to experience some of what I've had to endure, partly at your hands, have fun in the Deep Roads.

You are a Gray Warden. You stop Blights. All else is irrelevant.

Totally agree, but a little payback en route does nobody any harm

[KariTR]

adembroski11 wrote...

Something to think about... how many who feel it's wrong to make Loghain a Grey Warden freed Sten?

A) Loghain isnt being left defenseless against the Darkspawn.
 Sten's crime isnt known to you on initially meeting him. Even when knowing the whole story, it is never a crime that is personal to the hero.
C) There is a whole year or more between meeting Sten and having the option to spare Loghain. The events in that time cannot fail to have shaped your PC.

If Loghain had been in the cage at Lothering, I probably would have spared him too. Likewise, if I met Sten and heard of his crimes at the Landsmeet, I would probably have had him beheaded.

[adembroski11]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Caprasia wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...
Sorry, but there really is no excuse for letting him live.

Sorry, but there is.

It's called 'welcome to my world' just before you take the killing blow on the Archdemon. 

Time for you (Loghain) to experience some of what I've had to endure, partly at your hands, have fun in the Deep Roads.

You are a Gray Warden. You stop Blights. All else is irrelevant.

Tell Alistair that. Grey Wardens are not mindless, souless creatures in direct opposition to Dark Spawn... they are in every way normal human beings (or Dwarves, or Elves) beyond the taint and their ability to hear the Archdemon. They have the same passions, strengths, and weaknesses. Loghain is the same man after the Joining as before.

[Apophis2412]

Caprasia wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

Caprasia wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...
Sorry, but there really is no excuse for letting him live.

Sorry, but there is.

It's called 'welcome to my world' just before you take the killing blow on the Archdemon. 

Time for you (Loghain) to experience some of what I've had to endure, partly at your hands, have fun in the Deep Roads.

You are a Gray Warden. You stop Blights. All else is irrelevant.

Totally agree, but a little payback en route does nobody any harm

To bad he gets a nice monument for sacrificing himself and that people forget about the bad things he has done.

[fantasypisces]

I love Alistair's character, no question. Yes he is a bit whiny but no more so than anyone else. Morrigan doesn't really whine, but she complains a lot. Sten gets annoyed a lot, Leliana and Zevran get confused from time to time, Oghren/Shale/Dog are there because they got nothing else to do. But Wynne, oh Wynne, now that chick whines, and complains, and rants and lectures.

Wynne gets mad if your a blood mage, then spouts off all these stories about Grey Wardens. Umm, lady, you know quite a few Grey Wardens are blood mages right, the order has no problem with it. She gets mad if you get in a relationship, basically Wynne will comment on every single little thing you do in the game. If it isn't something she likes, then you use a lot of approval (-15 is common) or she goes ape-s**t and attacks you. Lets contrast that to Alistair who does complain a lot, but will never leave you until the end, because ultimately he knows that they are difficult decisions and it is all leading up to defeating the blight.
At the end, although I think it was a bit brash to immedietly be like "I'm leaving the Grey Wardens, I quit, etc" I can see exactly where he is coming from. Loghain killed your entire order, which was basically every friend you have known for the past however many years, he kills your half-brother, he tries to poison your uncle, he puts a bounty out on your head, sending assassin after assassin after you, all the while at the end neither of our characters realize that it has to be a Grey Warden that kills the archdemon.
My first playthrough I killed loghain, and had no problem with it. After finding out the bit of news from Riordin I thought "well maybe Loghain would have been useful." On my second playthrough, I killed Loghain again, because I realized that this character doesn't know what the first one knows. My point being that, since I don't have any idea 'just how important' Grey Wardens really are, I have no problem killing Loghain, because I agree with Alistair, he deserves it.
Most people that come on here and say they hate Alistair is because he overreacts and acts childish at the end. Yes maybe he does, but wouldn't you. I refuse to believe that if the same situation happened to all of you, and knowing what you do, that you wouldn't kill Loghain. If your character did save Loghain on your first playthrough then you are just a really really really nice individual, or an idiot.
This sort of goes back to the "Riordin's motives" thread, but I think if Alistair and the PC both knew that it takes a Grey Warden to kill an Archdemon, then we both might have been more willing to let Loghain live. However, since neither of us knew that, well, off with his head. He was a traitor to the crown, a slaver, he basically committed genocide (against the grey wardens), allowed his underling to kill a whole royal family, woman, children, and all (Couslands), then imprisoned other high status families, torturing them unless they sided with him. Sorry, I grin with satisfaction everytime Loghain dies, and completely understand where Alistair is coming from (especially since he doesn't know that it takes a grey warden... yadi ya).

Modifié par fantasypisces, 15 décembre 2009 - 08:49 .

[Apophis2412]

adembroski11 wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

Caprasia wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...
Sorry, but there really is no excuse for letting him live.

Sorry, but there is.

It's called 'welcome to my world' just before you take the killing blow on the Archdemon. 

Time for you (Loghain) to experience some of what I've had to endure, partly at your hands, have fun in the Deep Roads.

You are a Gray Warden. You stop Blights. All else is irrelevant.

Tell Alistair that. Grey Wardens are not mindless, souless creatures in direct opposition to Dark Spawn... they are in every way normal human beings (or Dwarves, or Elves) beyond the taint and their ability to hear the Archdemon. They have the same passions, strengths, and weaknesses. Loghain is the same man after the Joining as before.

Gray Wardens may have the same failings as each of us do, but they still should have only one goal in life: Die, fighting Darkspawn. Just look at the way Duncan and Riordan act. They will do anything it takes to stop a Blight. Even if that means making a young woman a widow (Jory), tearing people away from their families (Dwarven Commoner) or recruit criminals (Loghain).

Although Alistair's thirst for vengeance makes him more human, it makes him a failure as a Gray Warden.
Like with Ser Jory, I wonder why Duncan even recruited him.

[Darthnemesis2]

adembroski11 wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

You are a Gray Warden. You stop Blights. All else is irrelevant.

Tell Alistair that. Grey Wardens are not mindless, souless creatures in direct opposition to Dark Spawn... they are in every way normal human beings (or Dwarves, or Elves) beyond the taint and their ability to hear the Archdemon. They have the same passions, strengths, and weaknesses. Loghain is the same man after the Joining as before.

This. Going through the Joining doesn't take away from the fact that Loghain is who he is. So he drank some blood and lived, that doesn't mean that he's suddenly going to say "Oh, I've been such a fool. Maybe I shoud go against my entire established character and be a good little Grey Warden". Maybe he'd finally wise up to why Grey Wardens are needed, but he'd still be a paranoid schizophrenic with unrational delusions of Orlesians beating down the Gates to the Palace in Denerim.

[Caprasia]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Caprasia wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

Caprasia wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...
Sorry, but there really is no excuse for letting him live.

Sorry, but there is.

It's called 'welcome to my world' just before you take the killing blow on the Archdemon. 

Time for you (Loghain) to experience some of what I've had to endure, partly at your hands, have fun in the Deep Roads.

You are a Gray Warden. You stop Blights. All else is irrelevant.

Totally agree, but a little payback en route does nobody any harm

To bad he gets a nice monument for sacrificing himself and that people forget about the bad things he has done.

Hmm... actually no he doesn't, you've missed the point slightly, it was my character who took the killing blow, the payback is in leaving Loghain alive - as the PC has the opportunity to say: "You can atone the hard way".  Poetic justice is a wonderful thing.

[Apophis2412]

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

adembroski11 wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

You are a Gray Warden. You stop Blights. All else is irrelevant.

Tell Alistair that. Grey Wardens are not mindless, souless creatures in direct opposition to Dark Spawn... they are in every way normal human beings (or Dwarves, or Elves) beyond the taint and their ability to hear the Archdemon. They have the same passions, strengths, and weaknesses. Loghain is the same man after the Joining as before.

This. Going through the Joining doesn't take away from the fact that Loghain is who he is. So he drank some blood and lived, that doesn't mean that he's suddenly going to say "Oh, I've been such a fool. Maybe I shoud go against my entire established character and be a good little Grey Warden". Maybe he'd finally wise up to why Grey Wardens are needed, but he'd still be a paranoid schizophrenic with unrational delusions of Orlesians beating down the Gates to the Palace in Denerim.

Darkspawn destroying said Palace does changes one's perspective a bit.