165 réponses à ce sujet

[Axterix]

kormesios wrote...

I know if you spare him, he does stay on your side; but that's video game convention as much as anything.  The reasoning why he wouldn't revert to plan A (kill the Wardens, seize the throne for himself, bring the Bannorn in line, and then if he has energy fight the darkspawn) after the joining was unvconvincing.

Nah.  You're ignoring why Loghain did what he did.  You've got two factors at work.

1.  He hates the Orleasians.  They must be kept out of Ferelden, was a pain kicking them out the last time.
2.  He believes that he is the only one in Ferelden who can successfully lead the effort to defeat the Blight.

Now, with the Blight stopped, there is no longer a reason to invite Orleasians in.  Therefore, Loghain has no reason to try to grab political power again.  And, when you defeat him in the landsmeet + duel, he stops believing that only he can defeat the blight.

See, Loghain isn't about personal power.  It was never about him, other than his pride leading him to believe he was the only one capable of defeating the Blight.  It was about his view of Ferelden, that was his cause.  And since he's pretty much amoral and very pragmatic, he'll do whatever he thinks is necessary for that cause.

Which is pretty much what you see from him after he becomes a Grey Warden.  He expects you initiated him just for that last battle, so he can help plan strategy and then strike the death blow.  Pragmatic, he'd have used you the same way.  But if you don't let him strike the deathblow, he takes the Warden life seriously, works hard at recruiting, because being a Grey Warden is now his new cause.

And that is the key to Loghain.  He's a guy driven a cause.  And the risk isn't of him betraying the cause, but rather, of him going too far in support of it.

So, no, personally, I've got no problem with how he behaves.  I can understand it quite well.

[Vormaerin]

Loghain has committed a lot of crimes. However, you completely misunderstand his character if you think he is treacherous. He has enormous personal integrity; he's just ruthless and, worse, wrong about the situation. I had no problems trusting him, because he's not at all like Howe. Yes, Loghain betrayed Cailan. But it wasn't greed for personal power, like it would have been with a man like Howe. He saw it as a choice of two evils: betray Cailan or betray Ferelden. He was probably wrong about that (though for all we know, Orlais may well have intended to save Ferelden from the Blight the same ways the Soviet Union "saved" Poland from the fascists in WWII). I needed him, his men, and all his supporters to face the Blight. Maybe just putting Anora on the throne would mollify all his supporters, but if you think that after killing Loghain and imprisoning Anora the 25-30% of the nation personally loyal to the Mac Tirs are all going to just say "oh, okay. New king. Let's go"... well, you haven't read much history, imho.

Its not like he was being pardoned. He's not remaining as Regent or even Teyrn. He's trading one death sentence for another. And, frankly, the great hero who loses his way and then redeems himself by going out in a blaze of glory is a better story than "National Hero gets head chopped off in political power struggle."

Modifié par Vormaerin, 15 décembre 2009 - 09:28 .

[Sabriana]

Loghain is a rotten bastard, that is definitely true. But my PC, a novice Grey Warden, just like Alistair, decided to trust Riordan, the veteran. He had to have a reason for the suggestion, he's a dedicated Grey Warden, just as Duncan was.

And thus developed the moment that my PC's friendship with Alistair broke. He deserted. No, I don't whine because he deserted my group. Let him, I understand his motives completely. After all, my PC lost almost everything except her brother to treachery. And that was a real family, people who told her they loved her. As far as I know, Alistair's relationships exist in his head, nowhere do we have any confirmation that Duncan felt like a father to him, that the arl felt like a father to him, etc. Could be, could not be, I don't know.

The main reason that my PC wrote Alistair off is the desertion. Every Grey Warden is desperately needed, but he walks off. I didn't see him fight the final battle. If he had fought, even though he was no longer in my PC's party, I'd be fine with that. But he runs off and betrays Duncan utterly, alongside Ferelden. That is something I can't forgive.

Jory tasted steel when he tried to back out. I know he also drew his blade, but he did so after being told that there was no way out. Duncan himself slew Jory. Alistair backs out as well, but apparently there are two sets of rules at work here.

As for the Redcliffe incident, Isolde is hardly a motherfigure to Alistair. Let us remember that she whined at the arl almost from the beginning about Alistair's presence in the castle. She whined so much that the arl turned on his "son" and stuck him into the Chantry.  Alistair himself told my PC that Isolde made living at the castle very uncomfortable for him. Yet, he throws a huge fit after my PC makes the hard choice, and accepts Isolde's decicion to sacrifice herself for her son. Even the arl sees that it was the right decicion, and he's Isolde's husband.

I know that going to the tower and getting mages was an option, but I didn't know what would happen once the party leaves Redcliffe. There were rumors abound that all was not well at the tower, plus, what would the possessed child do while my PC and her party travel to and from the tower? There was no reason to believe that the kid would stay put, nice and quiet-like.

And let's not forget that Isolde initiated all this death and mayhem. The pious Isolde commited a crime when she tried to hide her son's magical abilities. Had she abided by the law, none of this would have happend. Yes, Jowran is the poisoner, but he likely would never had the chance to do that, nor would the boy be turned into an abomination had he been turned over to the circle, as prescribed by Chantry law. Jowran is an apostate mage, without Isolde's attempt to circumvent the law, he most likely would never have seen the inside of the castle.

Everyone has different feelings about all this, and that is perfectly right. Personal choices, opinions and emotions are just that, personal. That's mighty good writing in my opinion, to bring out such emotions in players.

 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Loghains conversion is badly written and frankly hard to belive.



Sparing him is dumb. He's a vaiability, a madman and a triator who has proven that his word of loyalty means nothing. He can still backstab you and no sane person would let someone like him watch his back on the eve of one of the most important battles. He's not irreplacable.



So why spare him? Killing him is not a betraly of Grey Wardens. Get someone else to become a Grew Warden if you need more of them.

[Vormaerin]

The "You beat me, so I think you must be like Maric" speech is a bit of a stretch, though I wouldn't say its completely out of character. He's a very "black or white" type person.



And if you are right that no sane person would trust him on the eve of battle, then most of Ferelden is insane. If you don't think having the Hero of River Dane standing at your side in the battle isn't going to make lots and lots of lords and soldiers much happier about the upcoming fight, then I suggest you've little understanding of how things work. Heck, even the Landsmeet...whom you've actually lobbied...laughs off your Ostagar tales. The rest of the country probably doesn't even give you that much courtesy

[Caprasia]

Sabriana wrote...

Everyone has different feelings about all this, and that is perfectly right. Personal choices, opinions and emotions are just that, personal. That's mighty good writing in my opinion, to bring out such emotions in players.
 

Couldn't agree more, the fact that there are such debates on this and other issues shows just how well the characters are realised.

[Dzikv]

Alister is indeed a tool that whines like a 12 year old girl. I hate him for it, but he has some funny dialogue here and there..

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Vormaerin wrote...

The "You beat me, so I think you must be like Maric" speech is a bit of a stretch, though I wouldn't say its completely out of character. He's a very "black or white" type person.

And if you are right that no sane person would trust him on the eve of battle, then most of Ferelden is insane. If you don't think having the Hero of River Dane standing at your side in the battle isn't going to make lots and lots of lords and soldiers much happier about the upcoming fight, then I suggest you've little understanding of how things work. Heck, even the Landsmeet...whom you've actually lobbied...laughs off your Ostagar tales. The rest of the country probably doesn't even give you that much courtesy

Indeed, although I find it funny how this topic developed from a debate on Alistair into one of Loghain. What, because people are stating they spared Loghain just to get rid of Alistair? Or namely because they think Loghain is more of a tool?

Taking their involvement in big battles, the two come out with these past records.

Alistair's involvement in big battles = 0 apart from the little skirmishes throughout the game (including the tower of ishal assault).

Loghain's involvement in big battles = lots, we're talking about a man, whom rose from humble beginnings to that of a Teyrn after being a key person in a battle to reclaim Ferelden from the Orlesians and then defend it from them for 20 years.

Sparing him is dumb you say Lotion? Clearly as Vormaerin has stated, it really isn't a dumb idea to some people in Ferelden. Yes, he has done many very bad things in the last year or so, but he has not acted alone, some people may even believe that Howe poisoned his thoughts with the possibility of another invasion, we all know howe had ties to the orlesians in the past, Loghain would know this too and thus would believe him.

I suppose some people believe sparing Zevran is dumb too, some people clearly haven't heard of the expression "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer." for that could be the perfect mindset for someone whom spares both and has them both in their party when they go to war.

Then there is the purely diplomatic types whom would rather deal with situations through diplomatic negotiations rather than violence, but if need be turn to violent negotiations. When they spare Loghain, sure they will understand that Alistair won't be happy but they probably aren't expecting him to throw such a hissyfit and leave.

My personal opinion of Alistair isn't that he is a tool in the sense the OP put it, nor in the sense I mentioned in my previous post. In my opinion he has his faults and his good points just as most people tend to. I would probably get along with him. As for Loghain, I would probably take the diplomatic approach, although 'breaking out of game mechanics' I would probably query Riordan if we can conscript anyone else as well.

Speaking of the whole 'make another person a warden', I queried this in another topic and from what some others stated, the developers did look at that possibility but didn't implement it for some reason or other, possibly resources or implementation or making the two big choices near the end of the game more slimmed down.

I can understand all the possible reasonings, sure it is a bit sad, but that is the way of things unfortunately, just as the whole situation with the 'King/Queen on their own' wannabes. Some things can't be implemented for various reasons.

One last thing, one of my favourite Alistair quotes "Do this! Do that!" said in such a 'grumpy teen' voice when you click on him to begin with and you don't have a good approval score with him yet beats the hell out of the PC voice "Can I get you a ladder so you can get off my back!" line any day.

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 15 décembre 2009 - 11:21 .

[Korva]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Loghains conversion is badly written and frankly hard to belive.

I agree with this. I'm not saying I wasn't a little touched by his change of mind and his farewell to Anora, but it was ... just totally out of the blue, and despite the undoubtedly great voice acting I just couldn't believe it. As a player I feel almost as if it was written this way to make you feel like a bad gal/guy if you kill him, and that annoyed me a bit.

Also, Riordan's offer came totally out of the blue as well and felt equally odd. Just a short while earlier he told you that it's not possible to do more Joinings because the supply of archdemon blood is missing. So ... do we have the blood all of a sudden? And if so, why not ask for volunteers from among the best of the many gathered allies/armies who UNLIKE Loghain are trustworthy, choose the best among these volunteers, those who seem to be the most likely to survive, and induct some new unquestionably loyal and reliable Wardens?

Does Riordan explain where he found the ingredients if you do spare Loghain? There really should have been the option for a "Grey Warden huddle" to ask those questions and have him explain about the archdemon.

Before the game was released I was really hoping all these trailers of Loghain apparently turning against Cailan and the Wardens were red herrings, that there was more to it all. But there isn't, and he does, and I see zero reason to buddy up with an obsessed traitor and regicide who tried to frame the Wardens for his crimes and wipe them (us!) out.

[Bagenholt]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bagenholt wrote...
Seriously? Considering the world as I know it could end without this man I'd live and bare with it. Keep your cunning high then what is the problem? stay one pace ahead and we can always finish the job later.

This is utter, utter bull**** argumnet that keps repeating tiself despite being moronic.
No, the world will not end without Loghain. That is utter nonsense. If you can make Loghain a grey Warden, you can make someone else a grey warden. Instead of submitting him to the Joining, why not submit someone else? You've got 4-5 whole armies camped nearby, you wouldn't be lacking skileld recruits.

Yes, trusting Loghain is foolish. Very foolish because he suddenly trust you after you defeted him. What kind of logic is that?
"You're an orlesian spy! I will fight you to the death!"
*one short defeat later*
"You bested me. CLEARLY you cannot be an orlesian spy. I trust you now. I'm happy to leve Ferelden to you."

Ok...WTF??? WTF?? Eother Loghian is insane, or the writers were on something when they wrote that.
And where did the archdemon blood come fro manyway? Roidan said it was stolen. And if you had the blood, why only make Loghain a GW?
If you only had enough for one person - WHY IN THE HELL HIM??? The man is downright insane and he broken his oaths to people that were far closer to him (Cailan). He his stil lhas some influence and enough fanatical followers to stab you in the back at a critical moment.
Why no Ser Cauthrien? Ser Perth? Or any of the hunderd other capable knights?

Really...If anything in the game is broken than it must be the end, Landsmeet and after that.

Where did I say I trusted him? Just because the game doesn't give me an option as far as I know, I'd have killed him anyway after the blight was over and done with. Atleast he would have been put to death for his crimes after saving alittle face in the history books by helping. But within the games conventions just because yes we can succeed without him doesn't mean we should. He owns alot of man power and is really a huge political figure and with all things considered if it was reality his participation would have been a great moral boost and would have saved possibly hundreds of lives. You forget the 'commeners' don't know the ins and outs of what was going on behind the scenes.

Unite Fereldan against the blight. 

[Beerfish]

In the end Alistairs actions speak louder than his words. For me he's been the best all around fighter companion in the game. He may whine when not in battle but when it's time to fight he's the best of the lot.

[Cammy2709]

I like him but he does whine alot. But to be honest, so do we all. For example this very thread is an example of whining, no? Just me being a smart ass there, I'll get to the point.
Anyways, I always keep him in my party because he is a good fighter. Nobody can really disagree with that too much. And also because my party usually consists of the starting group. Alistair, Morrigan and my dag.
Oh and there's no one in game who take as much ripping as Alistair can. I feel sorry for the guy sometimes. He just takes it on the chin like a true champ.

Modifié par Cammy2709, 15 décembre 2009 - 02:35 .

[Lucy Glitter]

Evainelithe wrote...

3. Howe is his advisor, a very cunning advisor at that. Consider that Logain may well have been played by him. Logain has a tactical mind, not a political one. Most of the 'evil' that logain has been accused of were actually instigated by Howe. This is made clearer if you play the human noble origin.

I think the whole Alienage deal kind of makes it seem otherwise.

[LdyShayna]

Evainelithe wrote...

2. He's a brilliant tactician that has fought major battles at ostagar against the darkspawn with the fewest losses ever until the PC shows up.

At which point he decides to sacrifice half his army and leave the last gateway into the Bannorn - Lothering - completely defenseless while he rushes up to Denerim to personally claim regency over his adult and perfectly capable daughter, The Queen. 

4. Logain was blinded by his hatred for Orlais just as Alistair is blinded by his hatred for Logain. They both do what they think they must to save Ferelden except Logain gets over his hatred and is eager to embrace the Warden's cause where Alistair deserts the cause because of his hatred. I'd say Logain is the better person in the end.

I don't see how you could possible make Loghain out to be superior in this, as he nearly destroys Ferelden over the course of the game for his irrational hatreds. He refuses to believe there is a Blight in the lnd FAR past where he shoudl have realized it because EMOTIONALLY he could not accept that it was true, and instead insists on fighting a civilwar even when he advisor Howe says he should not. If you want to go with "In MY game he fully supports the Grey Wardens" well in MY game he only capitulates because he knows he is utterly beaten, even AFTER the vote in Landsmeet and being presented with the ramifications of all his mistakes, and Alistair never betrayed anyone or anything. 

[Vicious]

I find it hard to kill a man who is utterly defeated and at my mercy. The fact that Alistair does it so readily is kinda...creepy. It was Loghain's action that resulted in Duncan's death, sure, but it was the Darkspawn that killed him. Kill Loghain once, kill him a thousand times, but truth is vengeance is little comfort to the dead.





But IMHO Loghain got too much focus for a guy who isn't the main villain at all.

[PuffyTail]

You know, it's funny...I didn't ever really dislike Alistair at all until I started playing through the game as a tougher/more evil character. Now that I'm doing so I still wouldn't say I dislike him, but I can definitely see why some people find him to be irritating. I also like how nasty and unpleasant the Chantry gets when you play the game as an atheist and treat them accordingly (their attitudes are not too different from some I've encountered in the real world, actually )

Modifié par PuffyTail, 15 décembre 2009 - 03:45 .

[InvaderErl]

LdyShayna wrote...

 and Alistair never betrayed anyone or anything. 

He does by leaving, that is a betrayal of principle and a betrayal to the memory of Duncan. If the latter were still alive he would have told Alistair to get over himself and do his duty as a Warden. Stopping the Blight comes before vengeance, Duncan himself said that.

And Alistair doesn't leave because he distrusts Loghain, he leaves because he wants to kill him - just like he's not really upset that you used Blood Magic to save Connor but because he feels like he let Arl Eamon down.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 15 décembre 2009 - 04:37 .

[JaegerBane]

Vormaerin wrote...

Loghain has committed a lot of crimes. However, you completely misunderstand his character if you think he is treacherous. He has enormous personal integrity; he's just ruthless and, worse, wrong about the situation. I had no problems trusting him, because he's not at all like Howe. Yes, Loghain betrayed Cailan. But it wasn't greed for personal power, like it would have been with a man like Howe. He saw it as a choice of two evils: betray Cailan or betray Ferelden. He was probably wrong about that (though for all we know, Orlais may well have intended to save Ferelden from the Blight the same ways the Soviet Union "saved" Poland from the fascists in WWII). I needed him, his men, and all his supporters to face the Blight. Maybe just putting Anora on the throne would mollify all his supporters, but if you think that after killing Loghain and imprisoning Anora the 25-30% of the nation personally loyal to the Mac Tirs are all going to just say "oh, okay. New king. Let's go"... well, you haven't read much history, imho.

Its not like he was being pardoned. He's not remaining as Regent or even Teyrn. He's trading one death sentence for another. And, frankly, the great hero who loses his way and then redeems himself by going out in a blaze of glory is a better story than "National Hero gets head chopped off in political power struggle."

While you're making soem good points, the problem is that most of the good points are conjecture that fly in the face of facts.

Loghain is ruthless, and single minded, true. He does not, however, have any integrity whatsoever. He is supposedly a great tactician - do you honestly expect me to believe that he felt that reducing the country to civil war - not even considering that a massive darkspawn army is approaching - was a good idea? No. He realised that he's screwed up. He realised that he didn't have a clue as to how to run a nation. He even realised that his dismissal of the blight was a mistake.

Hell, he realised that putting out contracts on Grey Wardens was a poor idea while he was doing it. He makes Macbeth look like the bloomin' Messiah.

Ultimately, the guy either had too little backbone or too much arrogance, or possibly a combo of both, to change his plans and do what was needed when it became plain that his whole motivation had turned out to be false.

He's pathetic. He deserved that decapitation ten times over.

The whole concept of redemption is lost on Loghain. He had dozens of chances to redeem himself and he still kept going, irrespective of the cost in lives, security and  prosperity that he was inflicting on the nation he claimed he was 'protecting'.

Personally the wretch deserved to be skinned alive while watching someone note down in the histories that Loghain was the greatest fool in the history of ferelden. Anora, good lord, I couldn't care less about her. Sell her into slavery to help rebuild some houses, maybe.

[Bagenholt]

LdyShayna wrote...

Evainelithe wrote...

2. He's a brilliant tactician that has fought major battles at ostagar against the darkspawn with the fewest losses ever until the PC shows up.

At which point he decides to sacrifice half his army and leave the last gateway into the Bannorn - Lothering - completely defenseless while he rushes up to Denerim to personally claim regency over his adult and perfectly capable daughter, The Queen. 

4. Logain was blinded by his hatred for Orlais just as Alistair is blinded by his hatred for Logain. They both do what they think they must to save Ferelden except Logain gets over his hatred and is eager to embrace the Warden's cause where Alistair deserts the cause because of his hatred. I'd say Logain is the better person in the end.

I don't see how you could possible make Loghain out to be superior in this, as he nearly destroys Ferelden over the course of the game for his irrational hatreds. He refuses to believe there is a Blight in the lnd FAR past where he shoudl have realized it because EMOTIONALLY he could not accept that it was true, and instead insists on fighting a civilwar even when he advisor Howe says he should not. If you want to go with "In MY game he fully supports the Grey Wardens" well in MY game he only capitulates because he knows he is utterly beaten, even AFTER the vote in Landsmeet and being presented with the ramifications of all his mistakes, and Alistair never betrayed anyone or anything. 

Oi!  Stop having so poignant arguments. You gave up the right to be opinionated when you became a mod 

[Bagenholt]

Personally I reckon he'd make an amazing warden if he could focus his obsessive nature towards just that. You could imagine him going into Oz and gaffing about with their political caffufle? "Listen my little friends. You die outside before the blight or at the end of my madness. The treaty only obligates the King you say? This is where I pick one of you and start killing the rest of you with said little one ^^b get a move on coz I have a million health poultices and all evening to play."

[Medhia Nox]

Loghain's character has nothing to do with why I hate Alistair. Loghain is a psychopath as well.

However, I tried to look at my character and decide. I played a mage. I had every indication that Ferelden hates my kind at worst.. distrusts them at best. We're prisoners in our tower. So, my connection with Ferelden is tenuous at best.

However, like Sten, I fight because the darkspawn "Threaten the entire world."

Concerning family. The mage Origin has only this to say: When discussing family during the Origin you can say that you have no real connection with your family either. You can also tell Alistair during a conversation that you've lost enough to know what he's going through. So.. I played my character that he didn't have a great family.. and suffered loss. So, there's that.

I was a new recruit. I didn't have a connection to the Wardens.. didn't have some deep appreciation for Duncan. Yes, thank you Duncan for saving me from Greagor.. but, I wouldn't have been in trouble anyway.. I was doing as I was requested by the Headmaster. You saved me some trouble.. that is all. Your Grey Wardens are nice and all.. but I'm not in this for some fantasy about knights in shining armor.

----

So.. when I decided to spare Loghain.. it was because I decided my character believes in second chances. A chance I would have liked with my family.. with my loss.. and with Ferelden as a mage. Ferelden failed me.. betrayed me.. and locked me away. I also played that my family did something similar.

Then.. that a--hat Alistair pitches a fit. It's all about him. "Oh, you lead PC.. but as soon as I don't like where you lead.. I'm going to abandon you."

So fine.. take off Alistair.. and if you ever darken my doorstep again.. you'll need more than those feeble Templar abilities to save you from my "evil magic" you pathetic excuse for a hero.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 15 décembre 2009 - 05:51 .

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Alistair's flaws stem from what he came from. The blood of a great king and a maid. He was never allowed to forget either of those points. Always, always kept down. Gee, I wonder if that would cause any issues.



Basically he is a good man who was always told they were unwanted. The nobility thought of him as the product of opportunistic scum and the lowborn thought of him as just another snotty noble. The only solace he had was the training to become a templar.



You actually learn all of these points by talking to him. What did you expect? The fact that he didn't turn out a ridiculously bitter creature is pretty damn amazing. He whines because he feels no control over anything. Even Duncan had to conscript him to get him away from the Chantry.



Duncan being the only person who appreciated him for being Alistair as opposed to royal bastard or noble scum. Sure Eamon was nice but Eamon also sent him away because he couldn't square things with his pet harpy.

[Alarna]

I love Alistair. He is so realistic. He isn't a "Uber" man, he's like the man on my side, loyal, strong and he stands to his weaknesses. No, he cannot patch his clothes, he don't want to lead but he is loyal and honest. He is perfect, gratz to David Gaider