165 réponses à ce sujet

[DariusKalera]

TeenZombie wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

Common sense also says that having 4 Wardens is better than 3.

At the Landsmeet, Alistair and PC have no idea how the Archdemon dies.  They also have no idea that the Archdemon is coming to town in a few days, so yes, four is better than three, but at that point, part of why the PC needs to get rid of Loghain is to allow Grey Wardens to enter the country.  Dozens or hundreds of Grey Wardens would be even better than four, right?

They do not need to get rid of him, just make him a Warden.  Same thing is accomplished and hundreds of Wardens enter the country. 

I'm done, Loghain fans just need to go write fanfic where their hero actually gives the PC some reason, ANY reason, to believe that he would be trustworthy, reliable, or liable to allow ORLESIAN Grey Wardens to enter the country once he undertakes the Joining.  Because that sure ain't in the game.

Not really a Loghain fan, I've killed him as often as not.  To me, he's just another companion like Ogren or Sten.   I do see the advantages in keeping him around though.   It is not really about trust, just using a very good tool when it is presented to you.

[sapphyreelf]

I can understand the rationalizing behind Loghain. I truly can, but my character has her own motives, and when Loghain marched into the hall with Howe at his side and let that man announce himself as the Teryn of Highever in front of me...



He sealed his fate. My first goal was to bring justice to my family. Duty to the Grey Wardens comes a distant second to avenging my family. At this point in the game, Logahin seems as much an accomplice to Howe - so I don't care what his justification is. My character was good, but a compassionate heart can look beyond so much.

[Clovis-]

My appreciation of Alistair changes with the character I am role-playing.



When I'm a good hearted realist; joking around with Alistair and making light of dark situations adds comedic relief which brightens up certain moments. His cowardice is trivialized by my PC since ultimately Alistair will do what needs to be done, despite his protests.



When I'm a Ruthless Militant; his squabbles are shot down immediately and I find him a nuisance and his idealism a liability to make strictly actuarial decisions. Eventually his royal blood leads to his death because of the possible threat it presents to my authority.



When I'm evil... I'd take the first chance I could get to lop off his head with the only regret being that it could possibly continue to talk detached from his body.

[Clovis-]

My appreciation of Alistair changes with the character I am role-playing.



When I'm a good hearted realist; joking around with Alistair and making light of dark situations adds comedic relief which brightens up certain moments. His cowardice is trivialized by my PC since ultimately Alistair will do what needs to be done, despite his protests.



When I'm a Ruthless Militant; his squabbles are shot down immediately and I find him a nuisance and his idealism a liability to make strictly actuarial decisions. Eventually his royal blood leads to his death because of the possible threat it presents to my authority.



When I'm evil... I'd take the first chance I could get to lop off his head with the only regret being that it could possibly continue to talk detached from his body.

[supernovashadow]

TeenZombie wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

Common sense also says that having 4 Wardens is better than 3.

At the Landsmeet, Alistair and PC have no idea how the Archdemon dies.  They also have no idea that the Archdemon is coming to town in a few days, so yes, four is better than three, but at that point, part of why the PC needs to get rid of Loghain is to allow Grey Wardens to enter the country.  Dozens or hundreds of Grey Wardens would be even better than four, right?

Not to mention that when one of those Wardens has been consistently trying to kill the other three- the safer choice is just taking him out of the equation.

[specter7237]

Alistair is a bit winy throughout the game, but he mans up at the end.

[kormesios]

Apophis2412 wrote...

kormesios wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...
That Loghain was scum is irrelevant. He is still Ferelden's greatest general. He is useful to have on your side. 

I know if you spare him, he does stay on your side; but that's video game convention as much as anything.  The reasoning why he wouldn't revert to plan A (kill the Wardens, seize the throne for himself, bring the Bannorn in line, and then if he has energy fight the darkspawn) after the joining was unvconvincing.
After all, my characters did the joining, and vengeance ranked very high on their to-do list.

Vengeance? What does vengeance matter? You have a Blight to stop.

Sorry,unclear.   I meant personal vengeance.  I still wanted to kill those who'd messed with the Alienage.  The game let me express that feeling.  I had no (in-character) reason to believe that Loghain wouldn't be still obsessed with killing me, the bans, or the Orlesians, after the joining.

If Loghain joins the Warden than most of his followers will do the same. Killing him will just make them your enemies.

That part's not technically true, is it?  His followers don't go through the joining.
And if it's roughly true--Loghain still has a lot of followers willing to die for him--that makes keeping him alive more risky.  A broken enemy with no power base is one thing, a major player with his own army at his command is another. 
I'm not being coy or ingenuous here.  That would be a major calculation for me in real life, in the unlikely event that I have to deal with a mortal enemy in a feudal system.

People have asked why Loghain would stay loyal. Firstly most of his major allies are either dead (Howe), or have joined the Warden (Cauthrien, Anora, several Bannorn lords).
But above all, he loves Ferelden. He will aid you because he needs you (and the army that you bring) to stop the Darkspawn.

He loved Ferelden before.  When he opposed you, destroyed the army and sundered the nation.
And that was back when he had far more reason to be loyal--a legitimate king who was son of his best friend, as opposed to a bastard who dethroned him.  The man's become a paranoid megalomaniac; you can't assume he's going to perceive things accurately and then act rationally.

[CJohnJones]

So the Chantry = Tool Academy?

[apantoliani]

I'm a chick. 'nuff said.



Hot in splintmail!



All joking aside, well written character is what does it for me. Definately doesn't come across as the high and mighty so and so with absolutely no flaws that cause other characters to look very 2d.

[Lotion Soronarr]

kormesios wrote...
That part's not technically true, is it?  His followers don't go through the joining.
And if it's roughly true--Loghain still has a lot of followers willing to die for him--that makes keeping him alive more risky.  A broken enemy with no power base is one thing, a major player with his own army at his command is another. 
I'm not being coy or ingenuous here.  That would be a major calculation for me in real life, in the unlikely event that I have to deal with a mortal enemy in a feudal system.
He loved Ferelden before.  When he opposed you, destroyed the army and sundered the nation.
And that was back when he had far more reason to be loyal--a legitimate king who was son of his best friend, as opposed to a bastard who dethroned him.  The man's become a paranoid megalomaniac; you can't assume he's going to perceive things accurately and then act rationally.

Lotion approves +50

[Solica]

I don't buy into any logic presented for letting Logain live and recruiting him as a Warden.
Actually, I'm even surprised that some can even contrieve such nonsense.
I think that is a major flaw of the writing as well. Yes, the end is sadly broken in this game. I can't imagine what was going through the heads of the developers.
Logain is a mass murderer, deserter and arch traitor to his land and its people.
For just a fraction of his heinous crimes, the most undignified and painful of executions should be an evident consequence. And a thing like redemption is certainly not something he deserves.

Vengeance is sometimes in order (certainly this time), but that is not an object in itself. No, it's about keeping the society together. For the survivors, for the victims families. And hunting down and weeding out all remaining followers is part of it.

But disregarding his crimes, and only considering ending the Blight, we see that Loghain is:
treacherous, a lier, a ruthless murderer, a selfish psychopath, a manipulator (hmm, not really the right material for a Warden? Is it?)
But looking even beyond such flaws of character, we still see that he is also:
having disastrously poor judgement, unable to understand any situation, rash to stupid actions, reckless to risk all on a just flimsy notions, eagerly listens to and takes poor advice, and extremely unreliable. The man is simply grossly incompetent to protect anything or anyone, a disaster in waiting (to follow up all disaster that he has already caused).

Not only would it be totally out of question to recruit such a man to the gray Wardens, but neither should anyone, that even for a second considered him suitable, be allowed in the Wardens.

I think Alistairs reaction is ultimately sound. He doesn't desert. He doesn't abandon the Gray Wardens. He is the last one. It's Riordan and the PC that have failed. Trusting Loghain should rightly end in disaster. There is no excuse for acting so stupidly.

Now I know that is not what the writers have intended. But there is where they too have failed. Weak. Disappointing.

[InvaderErl]

I actually agree with your post but that last bit that Alistair hasn't deserted I find fault with. If Duncan had been in that room (the man that Alistair holds up as his mentor and father-figure) he would have conscripted Loghain without a second thought.



The Grey Wardens are totally about defeating the Blight, EVERYTHING ELSE comes second, vengeance, morality all of it is inconsequential.

[Solica]

InvaderErl wrote...

I actually agree with your post but that last bit that Alistair hasn't deserted I find fault with. If Duncan had been in that room (the man that Alistair holds up as his mentor and father-figure) he would have conscripted Loghain without a second thought.

The Grey Wardens are totally about defeating the Blight, EVERYTHING ELSE comes second, vengeance, morality all of it is inconsequential.

I understand that. But to repeat myself:
"Trusting Loghain should rightly end in disaster. There is no excuse for acting so stupidly.

Now I know that is not what the writers have intended. But there is where they too have failed. Weak. Disappointing."

If Duncan would have conscripted Loghain, then he too would have been unexcusably stupid. He would be out of character and it would have been badly conceived and written, just as it is now. Trusting Loghain is giving the Blight a second chance. No Gray Warden would do that.

Modifié par Solica, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:33 .

[InvaderErl]

Would it really been out of character for Duncan do it though? I don't know if the game presents us with any circumstance we can use in order to determine that.

We do know that he recruits people of less than stellar moral background and looks to be in line with general Grey Warden recruiting tactics in that regard.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:50 .

[Solica]

It's not really about moral background. I have to assume recruits are 'suitable'.

The game does not present us with a very stupid Duncan.

The game presents us with ample proof that loghain is utterly unsuitable.

The game does not present us with any reason why recruiting Loghain won't be a very bad disaster.

The game present us with the fact that Wardens apparently act on their own accord and motivations (either that - or Alistair is still right).



It's simply messed up.

[Derengard]

In the beginning he seemed more eccentric and experienced, with an unaccountable quality to bring others against him, and then he becomes increasingly ordinary and intimate. There's nothing inspiring about his romance option (playing a female), but then I would skip all romances as they don't interest me greatly, the sex-scenes even less. It's just like downhill path that is too obvious and basic to waste any thoughts for. And that's also the case with most things that Alistair stands for.

I don't have any particular dislike, just a don't-care reaction.

Modifié par Derengard, 19 décembre 2009 - 07:29 .