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Learn from this, Bioware.


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#1
Doctoglethorpe

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Not everyone is happy, some are likely so jaded from the past 3 months they have no choice but be disappointed, but for the most part it would seem you successfully made the ending tolerable to most if not enjoyable.  I know I have found peace in it. 

This is earning you another chance with a lot of your fans, its restoring faith.  But a medicated wound is not a healed one.  Now you must prove you've learned your lesson, DA3 better knock it out of the park.  Or you know, at least end decently.  Thats all we really ask.  It doesn't have to be the second coming of Zeus, just make it decent and proper like your games before.  Make it fit the game its attached to.  Don't make DA3 go from LotR to some crazy scene off a Yes album cover.  Many of us will doubtfully be willing to go through this again.  So don't make a habbit of making extended cuts, thats not the lesson to be learned here.  Hopefully you know that. 

Sincerely, a long time fan made weary and cautious but ready for things to go back to normal.  I do so hate being a cynical bastard, please don't make me do that again. =]

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 27 juin 2012 - 09:00 .


#2
Random Geth

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But they HAVEN'T learned their lesson, and that's what's troubling. This is given to us out of a sense of "oh dear god, shut up already". They still don't see any flaw in their absurd "artistic vision" and refuse to change it. Some pretty wrapping over a turd doesn't make it any better. This restores no confidence for me, and while I seem to be in the minority who isn't impressed by a few pretty cutscenes that flesh out what was already figured out by many, I know I'm not the only one.

#3
Guanxii

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The ONLY Lesson BioWare should take away from this whole debacle is that you should ALWAYS focus test endings to games with these kind of expecations - especially when you attempt something controversial.

This whole nightmare could have been avoided months ago because it would have shipped with basically the extended cut ending(s) in the first place.

Modifié par Guanxii, 27 juin 2012 - 09:16 .


#4
Mimitochan

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Guanxii wrote...

The ONLY Lesson BioWare should take away from this whole debacle is that you should ALWAYS focus test endings to games with these kind of expecations - especially when you attempt something controversial.


You're damned right about that! I sincerely hope this IS what they learned from this.

#5
timedagar

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I doubt EA has learned to stop pressuring thier devisions into rushed development.
EA appears to make games to make money.
Bioware used to make the money so they gould keep making great games.

I hope this whole SNAFU and the resulting EC development (required to keep whats left of the fan base/consumers/people who pay salaries) will give Bioware the teeth it needs tear into EA the next time they push for premature release of a product.

#6
Guest_simfamUP_*

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BioWare? BioWare is the shield that EA uses when **** is thrown their way xD

#7
timedagar

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Indeed

#8
Erixxxx

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The EC has confirmed my belief that Bioware continues to be able to craft and tell masterful stories.

But, it has also confirmed my belief that EA puts too much attention to release dates and being inflexible with those. If anyone has anything to learn from this, it's EA.

#9
KainrycKarr

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Erixxxx wrote...

The EC has confirmed my belief that Bioware continues to be able to craft and tell masterful stories.

But, it has also confirmed my belief that EA puts too much attention to release dates and being inflexible with those. If anyone has anything to learn from this, it's EA.


This. The original, I suspect, was the victim of release date and resource-cutting douchebaggery. 

If you don't like the EC, I understand completely, but for me, I am thoroughly satisfied. The desire to replay the games has been restored for me.

#10
LolaLei

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Doctor Moustache wrote...

It doesn't have to be the second coming of Zeus, just make it decent and proper like your games before.  Make it fit the game its attached to.  Don't make DA3 go from LotR to some crazy scene off a Yes album cover. 


LOL I love that!

But I agree. It's weird, I'm desperate to get my hands on DA3... but at the same time I'm really concerned that it'll be as rushed as DA2 or give us some bizarre endings that leave us with a bad taste in our mouths with no emotional reward from it. I'd like to think Bioware will go all out to win everyone back by making DA3 something special, but I know I'll be playing it with my buttcheeks clenched the first time round trying to brace myself for bad news lol.

#11
Bomma72

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Also don't make premisses that you don't intend to keep.

#12
kegNeggs

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Erixxxx wrote...

The EC has confirmed my belief that Bioware continues to be able to craft and tell masterful stories.

But, it has also confirmed my belief that EA puts too much attention to release dates and being inflexible with those. If anyone has anything to learn from this, it's EA.


^this.

And I really like OPs statements. I could not put it better myself!

Let's hope for more great games with a solid ending from the beginning!

#13
Gravbh

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KainrycKarr wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

The EC has confirmed my belief that Bioware continues to be able to craft and tell masterful stories.

But, it has also confirmed my belief that EA puts too much attention to release dates and being inflexible with those. If anyone has anything to learn from this, it's EA.


This. The original, I suspect, was the victim of release date and resource-cutting douchebaggery. 

If you don't like the EC, I understand completely, but for me, I am thoroughly satisfied. The desire to replay the games has been restored for me.


+1 on the EA/rushing talk. Honestly, EA needs to just go under for the sake of the gaming industry. After Bioware finds a landing spot of course.

#14
kann.nix9mm

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Guys dont forget. EA=Bioware. Bio got assimilated and is now part of EA.. They are only Bio by name and not by soul.

#15
Ninja Stan

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When people tell BioWare to "learn" from their mistakes, the lesson is usually "always please everyone all the time" or "never do anything that any of your customers disagree with," which is an impossible request. This community is here for gamers/fans/customers to provide feedback to the development team, and BioWare has always appreciated constructive criticism, but y'all can understand, I hope, that the vociferous screaming and gnashing of teeth, the threats, the conflicting demands, the calls for people's firing, and the hate is not only not constructive, but does contribute to the idea that the community feels entitled to love everything that BioWare releases.

Being a fairweather fan, assigning "blame" for products you disagree with or don't like, and parroting the latest meme (some of which were, frankly, highly inappropriate), review bombing, and the insistence on BioWare communicating more and subsequent lambasting of that communication send very mixed messages. On the one hand, yes, BioWare understands that customers and fans can get extremely emotional and passionate about their games, characters, and worlds. That's awesome! It shows that BioWare has done a good thing and made a good setting in which to play. On the other hand, the abuse leveled at everyone from developers, the publisher, community managers, and PR/marketing show that people weren't interested in discussion, only in venting and raging. And then people are surprised when BioWare didn't want to subject themselves to that.

Sure, I agree that maybe BioWare needs to change the way they communicate with the fanbase in the lead-up to game releases, and sure, I agree that the community is deserving of more acknowledgement when it comes to them providing suggestions and feedback as to what they want to see in future projects. But on the flip side, the community also needs to "man up" and realize that game development is not a democracy, and that, while they have $60 at risk, game developers and publisher are banking millions of dollars and their professional reputations, and sometimes their very livelihood, on the success of the next project. Some folks around here could stand to cut the developers--and I assure you, none of them are rolling in piles of money; they are doing a job just like everyone else, a job they have great passion for--just the teeniest bit of slack.

(Before you jump all over me, note that I am no longer with the company, but those are my friends and former colleagues you are calling incompetent, greedy, lazy, uncaring, and stupid, and I won't stand for that.)

Thanks for reading my rant.

#16
Dracotamer

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They didn't resolve anything in my book.

#17
timedagar

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My issue resides not with the individuals who put everything they have into the task before them, working to contribute to what are as a whole, truly wonderful entertainment products.

My issue is with the decision makers. The Key individuals that make the choices to push something out before its polished, to proceed despite negative results from focus tests, those who decide that "A vocal minority" who didnt agree with a decision makers "artistic integrity" are simply entitled whiners and cry babies.

Should the dev teams and scores of people who made these games a reality be proud of thier work? Certainly! And perhaps even more so given that many could only follow the orders they have been given, and cary out the tasks needed to get the product off the drawing board and into a players hands.

Even so, there would be some benefit to the swallowing of said pride by those who made some really bad calls, and then not take accountablity for it until the "vocal minority" actually stood up and stuck it to them.

Please everyone? never gonna happen. And anyone who tries is a fool.
But I dare say that anyone who upsets what is truly the majority of thier fanbase (and profit base) then denies, justifies, and almost resentfully reworks what should have been there to begin with, all while trying to claim a victory, is something worse than a fool. The term of which escapes me at the moment.

There are a number of lessons to be learned from the entire thing. And while I dont beleive for an instant that the key decision makers responsible would publically acknowledge it (PR issues galore, everything needs a positive spin) I would like to have faith that they will take something away from the whole thing, and improve with thier next series. They cant admit it to us, but if those decision makers could even acknowledge the truth among themselves, that would be progress.

Modifié par timedagar, 27 juin 2012 - 06:59 .


#18
Cuttlebone

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Random Geth wrote...

But they HAVEN'T learned their lesson, and that's what's troubling. This is given to us out of a sense of "oh dear god, shut up already". They still don't see any flaw in their absurd "artistic vision" and refuse to change it. Some pretty wrapping over a turd doesn't make it any better. This restores no confidence for me, and while I seem to be in the minority who isn't impressed by a few pretty cutscenes that flesh out what was already figured out by many, I know I'm not the only one.


Can you please stop with that ****, even if they wanted they couldn't change the ending without losing face, the ending was rushed and they fixed it the best they could, and i think they've made it clear enough (like in every single phrase they say) how much they appreciate the fans.

#19
LightningSamus

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Dragon Age is made by another team and this should be on the Dragon Age forums.

#20
Robhuzz

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kann.nix9mm wrote...

Guys dont forget. EA=Bioware. Bio got assimilated and is now part of EA.. They are only Bio by name and not by soul.


While BioWare is just a division of EA now, the goals of EA =/= the goals of the BioWare team. The BioWare team behind ME3 was apparently (cannot blame them either) very unhappy with how ME3 turned out despite what they said in PR statements because they wanted to really spend time on making it the best game ever. And judging from what I heard was in the original version of the game, they were well on their way to actually achieving this. Then EA forced them to rush the game out the door because they wanted BioWare to work on other projects. We all saw the results.

Same deal with DA2, BW is taking their time with it at the moment but this will only last until EA wants money. Let's hope they knock it off and let BioWare do what they're good at this time.

So saying BioWare = EA is an oversimplification, sure some people at BioWare will agree with EA policies but I doubt most of the writers share this sentimen.

#21
Rajalia

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Ninja Stan wrote...

When people tell BioWare to "learn" from their mistakes, the lesson is usually "always please everyone all the time" or "never do anything that any of your customers disagree with," which is an impossible request. This community is here for gamers/fans/customers to provide feedback to the development team, and BioWare has always appreciated constructive criticism, but y'all can understand, I hope, that the vociferous screaming and gnashing of teeth, the threats, the conflicting demands, the calls for people's firing, and the hate is not only not constructive, but does contribute to the idea that the community feels entitled to love everything that BioWare releases.

Being a fairweather fan, assigning "blame" for products you disagree with or don't like, and parroting the latest meme (some of which were, frankly, highly inappropriate), review bombing, and the insistence on BioWare communicating more and subsequent lambasting of that communication send very mixed messages. On the one hand, yes, BioWare understands that customers and fans can get extremely emotional and passionate about their games, characters, and worlds. That's awesome! It shows that BioWare has done a good thing and made a good setting in which to play. On the other hand, the abuse leveled at everyone from developers, the publisher, community managers, and PR/marketing show that people weren't interested in discussion, only in venting and raging. And then people are surprised when BioWare didn't want to subject themselves to that.

Sure, I agree that maybe BioWare needs to change the way they communicate with the fanbase in the lead-up to game releases, and sure, I agree that the community is deserving of more acknowledgement when it comes to them providing suggestions and feedback as to what they want to see in future projects. But on the flip side, the community also needs to "man up" and realize that game development is not a democracy, and that, while they have $60 at risk, game developers and publisher are banking millions of dollars and their professional reputations, and sometimes their very livelihood, on the success of the next project. Some folks around here could stand to cut the developers--and I assure you, none of them are rolling in piles of money; they are doing a job just like everyone else, a job they have great passion for--just the teeniest bit of slack.

(Before you jump all over me, note that I am no longer with the company, but those are my friends and former colleagues you are calling incompetent, greedy, lazy, uncaring, and stupid, and I won't stand for that.)

Thanks for reading my rant.




I could support this sentiment. One must realize that a company isn't any one individual. And while many are driven, talented and dedicated people to their craft, they too are bound by other pressures. They work like you and I. Some have managers/supervisors who are great, others probably hate having to work under a boss that is less than ideal.

And though Ninja pretty much says that Bioware could have done some things differently across the full spectrum of issues, it's also true that there are other things that essentially couldn't be changed anymore. Even if sometimes a product ends up being of a poorer quality, just to save some face you have to suck it up, stand by it and take the punches.

Whether EA or Bioware was to blame for something that was rushed... no one is ever going to know. And at this point... it's really pointless to discuss. They can't recall it, and that would be just plain stupid to do.

Again to what Ninja said... players that continuously vented and ranted and raved didn't help matters either with threats. And it's true alot of this was likely cyclical in nature. A catch 22. While some were very constructive in their reviews and no doubt helped point many things out, those who hindered the process didn't really give any incentive to push out any responses. Which in turn made more people angry and again kept Bioware from daring to say anything fearing that no matter what could be said wouldn't matter.

I very much love the products I've had a chance to play of bioware's. And I will admit I was a dissatisfied player, but my critiques of the game I tried to bring solid points and reasons to what was good or bad rather than complain something didn't go the way I wanted it to. it can be difficult to pull yourself out fo your own emotional shoes and try to see it from the other side, or from an outside perspective.

I will also admitt I would have liked to ahve seen more back and forth feedback on their part. Get some insights to how they envisioned something or to have questions posed that would perhaps offer a chance for more indepth responses, but... one can never be sure if you're dealing with an over the top emotional fan or a person who is willing to give and take to better the product rather than just chew some's ear off.

Many things could have been handled infinitely better on both sides from the start

I've no doubt I will buy another Bioware title, but what I will also admitt is that it won't be on blind faith. I will cautiously research it first.

I remember when I first bought ME1... it was simply to fill in a gaming gap while waiting for a new game release. I had no idea what it was or what it was about. Had never heard of it. Graphics looked interesting, and I generally loved Sci-Fi and the apparent RPG element it had so I gave it a shot. I was blown away. ME2 very nearly did the same thing.

it is the difficult thing about sequels.... not only are you competiting to make a better game than your competitors... but with sequels you have to compete with making the next in the series 100 times better than the one before it. it can be difficult to do when you have to keep raising that bar.