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Extended Cut: taking back refusal


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#1
the slynx

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Spoilers ahead.

Apologies for length and probable typos. Short version: Those who played Extended Cut and didn't like the refusal option should scroll down to the links for a look at how this option might have been hanlded.

BioWare’s Extended Cut is out, and with it, a refusal option of sorts. When I first heard that, I was excited. Several forum members had come up with what I think were really good ways of making refusal a legitimate option, without ruining game balance or obviating the need for hard choices. But that’s not what we see in the Extended Cut. Refusal here is tantmount to failure. It’s hard for me to express my disappointment fully. I want to spell it out a bit, and also touch a bit on why I think refusal remains important.

I don’t think the Extended Cut fixes much. I had a (really) long write-up as to why, but to keep it short(er), several big problems remain: the Reapers not guarding the Citadel, for instance; explaining why exactly synthetic-organic warfare is inevitable when it’s possible to get through the games refuting this point repeatedly; why Star Kid suddenly helps Shepard onto the space elevator; and more. Some will be satisfied with the terse explanations to a few issues the EC added. Some won’t be. I don’t mean to go into that here. Some are satisfied with the choices now that they’re spelled out in more detail; others aren’t. I consider myself in the latter camp.

I think the endings themselves are still problematic. and they’re largely presented as unmitigated successes. For instance, is Synthesis explained? Nope. It’s glossed over: people glow green and that somehow instantly makes them half robotic, even though there’s no apparent impact to that fact whatsoever for organics. The only way we know they’re synthetic is that we’re told they must be, and their eyes are now green. How this rewriting happens, or what it means are just sort of skipped. Synthetics appear to remain largely the same, except now they like cuddling. Even the Reapers like cuddling and reconstruction efforts, so the whole eons of galactic war that completely obliterated hundreds of billions of lives in horrifying, blood-soaked, bone-crushing fashion; leaving corpses, destroyed and bloated, viscera smeared across the pavement, stinking in the sun; the dead filling worlds on the planets the Reapers opted not to ‘preserve’ during a long, painful genocide;  the few survivors huddled in horror  amidst the ruins of their worlds while the Reapers carried on their merciless killing spree with brutal efficiency - that was just, you know, a misunderstanding. A speedbump on the road to happiness. I guess we’ll all have a good laugh about that in a few years when we’re drinking mojitos with Harbinger at a beach party. Oh, and meanwhile, there’s galactic peace between races, too, for some reason. Just as an added bonus.

It’s such a Panglossian finale that it’s hard to see how it fits in with the rest of the tough choices faced by Mass Effect players. And it happens regardless of which ending you pick - unless you pick ‘refusal.’ Refusing to side with the genocidal maniac who’s presenting you with a series of bewildering choices that offer no guarantees they’ll even do what he says always ends in death. Not playing by the terms of the monster who orchestrated all that suffering for untold millenia is presented as a colossal mistake. Then your war ends and you lose and someone else down the road presumably makes the Crucible and fires it anyway, which is remarkable because, you know, you’d expect maybe the Reapers might have tried to use those thousands of years to change the Citadel or something. The abruptness and hollow doom in any kind of refusal ending - by which I mean, Shepard refuses to participate, but makes no attempt to do anything else but then stand by and watch what unfolds - seems almost like a rebuke from the developers to critical fans who didn’t like the ending. You don’t want to choose what we offered? Fine, then game over, and everyone dies. Happy?

Not really, no. I’m glad BioWare seems to have absorbed the criticism that Shepard’s passive attitude and actions in the final sequence are problematic to some gamers. (In the final moment the protagonist goes from being resourceful, pragmatic and determined to a pushover and milksop, eager to do what Star Kid tells him. Throw myself in this beam of light to get disintegrated? Well, I guess you know best.)  But BioWare included a refusal option that amounts to throwing a bit of a tantrum, then passively standing back and watching Earth’s destruction. That’s what people asked for, right?

No, it isn’t. See this thread about refusal for arguments about why refusal is important, and what form it could take. See this suggestion for a script based on refusal. Or check out this one. Or the one I made. There are several others on this forum. The key difference here is that in BioWare’s interpretation, refusal is a passive, petulant dismissal with nothing of substance to back it up. It’s bluster and bravado marked by inaction, or simple base posturing; that’s not the Shepard most of us played. In the presentations above, refusal is the beginning of another plan, not the plan itself.

Why does this matter? Ultimately, I suppose it doesn’t. But if you’re like me, and you still think the ‘choices’ offered are irrational and disappointing (and the choice giver untrustworthy), refusal was the last holdout. BioWare has apparently decided that it would be best to nip that particular line of thought in the bud and reject it: we either play the game exactly as they wanted, or not at all.

I want to point out ways in which people have done, by far, a better job of presenting how rejection might be handled than what’s present in the Extended Cut. It doesn’t need to be canonical. BioWare’s dedicated to their choices and that’s their decision to make. They’re not obligated to change it for me any more than I’m obligated to them to accept it. For those who, like myself, were hoping for something very different from Shepard and the trilogy, I want to reclaim refusal from being a childish pouting into being something meaningful and powerful. BioWare has repeatedly stated that this series belongs at least in part to the fans. It’s a little bewildering why, given that attitude, they’ve attempted to rebut fan-driven solutions to an ending many found lacklustre.

Please, do yourself a favor, and take a look at how rejection might have been handled. I won’t guarantee you’ll like the above formulations. I do hope that for anyone still disappointed after EC, this will give them a few more options for their mental canon on how Mass Effect should have ended.

Thanks for reading.

Also: I don't mean this to trash the developers or to suggest they're poor writers or anything like that. They've generally done a very good job with the trilogy, and I'm happy to have played it. This is meant for fans, like myself, who were hoping for something different at the end of it all.

Modifié par torudoom, 29 juin 2012 - 03:21 .


#2
Miezul_Carpatin

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Refusal should be the best ending, yet somehow they managed to make it extremely boring and uninteresting. How did the next cycle beat the reapers? What happened to Shepard? Did he manage to leave the Citadel or what happened?
Refusal ends very abruptly unfortunately.

#3
the slynx

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Miezul_Carpatin wrote...

Refusal should be the best ending, yet somehow they managed to make it extremely boring and uninteresting. How did the next cycle beat the reapers? What happened to Shepard? Did he manage to leave the Citadel or what happened?
Refusal ends very abruptly unfortunately.


It's certainly given a perfunctory treatment, at the very least.

#4
IanPolaris

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torudoom wrote...

Miezul_Carpatin wrote...

Refusal should be the best ending, yet somehow they managed to make it extremely boring and uninteresting. How did the next cycle beat the reapers? What happened to Shepard? Did he manage to leave the Citadel or what happened?
Refusal ends very abruptly unfortunately.


It's certainly given a perfunctory treatment, at the very least.


Of course they did.  You rejected Bioware's almighty "artistic vision" and "deep philosophical insight" (no matter they are completely contradictory to the very essence of what Shepard is and represents in Mass Effect to this point).

I could smell the outrage of the authors and the pettiness in the Catalyst's kid's temper tantrum (and that is exactly what this was....a writer's temper trantrum) from behind my screen.  If you think that the star-kid wasn't the direct voice of Hudson/Casey, you are kidding yourselfs.

Bioware can deny it all they like (and they will) but this was very clearly and very obviously (and IMHO unprofressional) a temper trantrum on the part of the writers.

-Polaris

#5
the slynx

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IanPolaris wrote...

Bioware can deny it all they like (and they will) but this was very clearly and very obviously (and IMHO unprofressional) a temper trantrum on the part of the writers.

-Polaris


I don't know it was intended that way, but as presented, it's certainly an easy conclusion to draw.

It seems odd that they would include it as a passive finale, when it was originally suggested as a means to let fans have a satisfying, forceful ending without removing the final sequence entirely. I don't think too many people believed it was a perfect solution so much as a compromise. And even in those terms, it was neutered, and left for the next cycle to do something about the Reapers, by some mysterious means we never get a chance to see.

#6
the slynx

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And also, for the record, it'd be nice to get a clear statement on whether or not BioWare means to treat the Mike Gamble tweet about the next cycle using the Crucible is canonical or not.

#7
xLeth

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Extremely disappointed from the refusal, that was all I wanted to say to the kid and the only thing it lead to was 3 words from it ...

#8
Delaney

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The refusal option is poor laziness by BW ... It's so obvious that it really hurts when I think about it too long.

#9
gen. Italia

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 After my conversation with starchild I was about to go to choose the ending, but i shot him in the head instead. Effect: "so be it, the cycle continues" :lol: That was fun!
Refusal ending sucks, by the way. It's not much of an ending anyway, something like pre-EC endings, nothing realy happens.

#10
the slynx

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gen. Italia wrote...

 After my conversation with starchild I was about to go to choose the ending, but i shot him in the head instead. Effect: "so be it, the cycle continues" :lol: That was fun!
Refusal ending sucks, by the way. It's not much of an ending anyway, something like pre-EC endings, nothing realy happens.


Pre Extended Cut, I'll admit to launching Mass Effect 3, loading up a particular save, and shooting Sky Kid in the face again and again, then turning the game off.

It's ironic Extended Cut ate that particular form of catharsis. Ironic collateral damage, I suppose.

#11
LKx

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for the records, i think that the reject option should have been something like this:

- Shepard reject the catalyst's options
- Shepard tell Hackett about the catalyst's nature (at least it would be knowledge for future cycles), and call in a nuke to the Citadel core
- The Citadel, and the Catalyst with it, gets destroyed, the reapers lose their controller, Shepard dies. Cofused they keep their prime directive, but they are less coordinated. Some reapers go rogue and just try to destroy everything on their path, some other acquire the self-knowledge of their races and either allow the alliance to destroy them or flee away.
- Reapers suffer heavy casualties, due the confusion, but, eventually, they manage to win this cicle (but with some survivors around), and most of them follow their prime directive to go back to sleep for another 50 thousands years.
- Next cycle, are aware of the threat due the Liara's probes (and maybe some other survivors' data around), and manage to destroy conventionally the new reaper's less coordinated assault

#12
flanny

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IanPolaris wrote...

torudoom wrote...

Miezul_Carpatin wrote...

Refusal should be the best ending, yet somehow they managed to make it extremely boring and uninteresting. How did the next cycle beat the reapers? What happened to Shepard? Did he manage to leave the Citadel or what happened?
Refusal ends very abruptly unfortunately.


It's certainly given a perfunctory treatment, at the very least.


Of course they did.  You rejected Bioware's almighty "artistic vision" and "deep philosophical insight" (no matter they are completely contradictory to the very essence of what Shepard is and represents in Mass Effect to this point).

I could smell the outrage of the authors and the pettiness in the Catalyst's kid's temper tantrum (and that is exactly what this was....a writer's temper trantrum) from behind my screen.  If you think that the star-kid wasn't the direct voice of Hudson/Casey, you are kidding yourselfs.

Bioware can deny it all they like (and they will) but this was very clearly and very obviously (and IMHO unprofressional) a temper trantrum on the part of the writers.

-Polaris


yeah it was bioware giving the fans who complained about their ending the middle finger, particually the ending with stargazer saying they used the catalyst to achieve peace meaning your sacifice was for nothing. Plus considering the achievement for completing the game is not unlocked if you choose reject bioware are actively saying 'you lose'

As i've mentioned before the reject ending had great potential, a chance to see your choices and EMS reflected in one final battle but we're robbed of even that.

I would have loved to have seen the ending if Shepard could fight one last boss to disable the catalyst or to send a message to the fleet to take out this section of the citedal, than with the reapers weakened from the loss of their central intelligence the final batlle takes place, where you get to see all the races you've united fight together and go out in a blaze of glory (if you're not going to stop them you're going to give them one hell of a bloody nose for when the face the next cycle) or even if your EMS was high enough maybe even win the fight for earth and see the reapers flee through the relay... there still would be loads of reapers so the war would go on but you'd get to be the first cycle to beat the reapers in a battle

#13
the slynx

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LKx wrote...

for the records, i think that the reject option should have been something like this:

- Shepard reject the catalyst's options
-
Shepard tell Hackett about the catalyst's nature (at least it would be
knowledge for future cycles), and call in a nuke to the Citadel core
-
The Citadel, and the Catalyst with it, gets destroyed, the reapers lose
their controller, Shepard dies. Cofused they keep their prime
directive, but they are less coordinated. Some reapers go rogue and just
try to destroy everything on their path, some other acquire the
self-knowledge of their races and either allow the alliance to destroy
them or flee away.
- Reapers suffer heavy casualties, due the
confusion, but, eventually, they manage to win this cicle (but with some
survivors around), and most of them follow their prime directive to go
back to sleep for another 50 thousands years.
- Next cycle, are aware
of the threat due the Liara's probes (and maybe some other survivors'
data around), and manage to destroy conventionally the new reaper's less
coordinated assault


I could get behind something like this.

One of the things I find confusing about all of this is what happens when you remove the Reaper controller. If Reapers are made up of the organics harvested in other cycles, would they really help the current cycle's genocide without being compelled? Would some rebel or do something completely separate? Would they enact another cycle, or survive as a singular group in the lengthy interim, or would they divide? Or are the Reapers themselves a construct that carries around these other societies, in which case each Reaper is a sort of warden to the trapped entities within - and I can only imagine what sort of existence that is for either warden or prisoners. Or perhaps only parts of the harvested individuals are reaped, and merged together into some sort of other consciousness that follows the controller - which sounds fairly horrifying and gives further reason to distrust what Star Kid says in the first place.

#14
flanny

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torudoom wrote...

LKx wrote...

for the records, i think that the reject option should have been something like this:

- Shepard reject the catalyst's options
-
Shepard tell Hackett about the catalyst's nature (at least it would be
knowledge for future cycles), and call in a nuke to the Citadel core
-
The Citadel, and the Catalyst with it, gets destroyed, the reapers lose
their controller, Shepard dies. Cofused they keep their prime
directive, but they are less coordinated. Some reapers go rogue and just
try to destroy everything on their path, some other acquire the
self-knowledge of their races and either allow the alliance to destroy
them or flee away.
- Reapers suffer heavy casualties, due the
confusion, but, eventually, they manage to win this cicle (but with some
survivors around), and most of them follow their prime directive to go
back to sleep for another 50 thousands years.
- Next cycle, are aware
of the threat due the Liara's probes (and maybe some other survivors'
data around), and manage to destroy conventionally the new reaper's less
coordinated assault


I could get behind something like this.

One of the things I find confusing about all of this is what happens when you remove the Reaper controller. If Reapers are made up of the organics harvested in other cycles, would they really help the current cycle's genocide without being compelled? Would some rebel or do something completely separate? Would they enact another cycle, or survive as a singular group in the lengthy interim, or would they divide? Or are the Reapers themselves a construct that carries around these other societies, in which case each Reaper is a sort of warden to the trapped entities within - and I can only imagine what sort of existence that is for either warden or prisoners. Or perhaps only parts of the harvested individuals are reaped, and merged together into some sort of other consciousness that follows the controller - which sounds fairly horrifying and gives further reason to distrust what Star Kid says in the first place.




well sovereign says 'we are each a nation', suggesting they're similiar to legion a single entity made up of multiple program.. though if they can be controlled by the catalyst or even Shepard then they are essentially tools in the same way the collectors were to the reapers

i'd guess (if we accpet the catalyst's role) if the catalyst is destroyed the reaper's would lose their connection and suffer in a similar way as the geth did

#15
Alushadow

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the facts are these in case no one understand
bad writing led us to the given options
"do as we say or die"
with multiple bad ending for shep its either you die or you die
just a proof of very very weak plot end and laziness
nothing more nothing less
you cannot survive if you do not kill us/join us/control us
is a big pile of junk
thats all

#16
Jadebaby

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torudoom wrote...

And also, for the record, it'd be nice to get a clear statement on whether or not BioWare means to treat the Mike Gamble tweet about the next cycle using the Crucible is canonical or not.


They killed Emily Wong on twitter, so I guess there's your answer.

#17
LiarasShield

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believe as a whole all the endings have been improved and better we don't have to worry abot the relays blowing up or everyone dieing from starvation or stuff of that nature


What If your given absolute power do you know in the end if it will corrupt you some day or that you can remain good forever?


What if Some people don't want to force everyone to be part organic or synthetic against their will?


What If I don't want to kill off a entire allied race just to see the reapers burn


Sometimes it isn't always wining that makes a hero great but how he or she handles defeat and if he or she is willing to hold onto his or her own beliefs the way I played shepard she would want everyone to remain free and make their own decisions so yes did we lose this cycle and the reapers won yes


But I believe the next cycle with liaras time capsule data of potential reaper weaknesses or technology that we had during that time will allow the next cycle to be more advanced or more adapt then we were and maybe could defeat the reapers without the crucible where we could not defeat them without the crucible either way

I don't feel that this is a defeat like many keep thinking because the races after us probably did beat them conventionally where we could not

#18
the slynx

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flanny wrote...

well sovereign says 'we are each a nation', suggesting they're similiar to legion a single entity made up of multiple program.. though if they can be controlled by the catalyst or even Shepard then they are essentially tools in the same way the collectors were to the reapers

i'd guess (if we accpet the catalyst's role) if the catalyst is destroyed the reaper's would lose their connection and suffer in a similar way as the geth did


Very possible. But I'm confused how the victims of this ongoing crime spree could be converted into its perpetrators without compromising who they are in some fundamental way. In which case, why preserve them at all, if you have to change them beyond recognition?


LiarasShield wrote...

I don't feel that this is a defeat
like many keep thinking because the races after us probably did beat
them conventionally where we could not


I hope this is true, but I still think the paucity of detail or any sense that we actually went out fighting makes the refusal ending lacklustre, to put it mildly.


Jade8aby88 wrote...



They killed Emily Wong on twitter, so I guess there's your answer.


Poor Emily Wong. Death by Twitter is about as bad as it gets. Like being crushed by a toilet that fell out of an airplane or something. Like the universe is mocking you.

Modifié par torudoom, 29 juin 2012 - 02:14 .


#19
Alushadow

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torudoom wrote...


LiarasShield wrote...

I don't feel that this is a defeat
like many keep thinking because the races after us probably did beat
them conventionally where we could not


I hope this is true, but I still think the paucity of detail or any sense that we actually went out fighting makes the refusal ending lacklustre, to put it mildly.



its not...
the end cinematic with the geezer and the kid states as clear as day
the knowledge left to them by "us" helped them prevent the genocide
and part of the holo = the catalyst
the diff is this time they build it much before the reaper's showed up and probably activated before the war even started

#20
flanny

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torudoom wrote...

flanny wrote...

well sovereign says 'we are each a nation', suggesting they're similiar to legion a single entity made up of multiple program.. though if they can be controlled by the catalyst or even Shepard then they are essentially tools in the same way the collectors were to the reapers

i'd guess (if we accpet the catalyst's role) if the catalyst is destroyed the reaper's would lose their connection and suffer in a similar way as the geth did


Very possible. But I'm confused how the victims of this ongoing crime spree could be converted into its perpetrators without compromising who they are in some fundamental way. In which case, why preserve them at all, if you have to change them beyond recognition?


LiarasShield wrote...

I don't feel that this is a defeat
like many keep thinking because the races after us probably did beat
them conventionally where we could not


I hope this is true, but I still think the paucity of detail or any sense that we actually went out fighting makes the refusal ending lacklustre, to put it mildly.


Jade8aby88 wrote...



They killed Emily Wong on twitter, so I guess there's your answer.


Poor Emily Wong. Death by Twitter is about as bad as it gets. Like being crushed by a toilet that fell out of an airplane or something. Like the universe is mocking you.


well at least she wasn't KO'd by Shepard on three occasions like a certain other reporter

#21
Baronesa

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Alushadow wrote...
its not...
the end cinematic with the geezer and the kid states as clear as day
the knowledge left to them by "us" helped them prevent the genocide
and part of the holo = the catalyst
the diff is this time they build it much before the reaper's showed up and probably activated before the war even started


Listen to what Liara says to them. She clearly tells them that the crucible did not work.

#22
LiarasShield

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Alushadow wrote...

torudoom wrote...


LiarasShield wrote...

I don't feel that this is a defeat
like many keep thinking because the races after us probably did beat
them conventionally where we could not


I hope this is true, but I still think the paucity of detail or any sense that we actually went out fighting makes the refusal ending lacklustre, to put it mildly.



its not...
the end cinematic with the geezer and the kid states as clear as day
the knowledge left to them by "us" helped them prevent the genocide
and part of the holo = the catalyst
the diff is this time they build it much before the reaper's showed up and probably activated before the war even started


Liara said the crucible did not work I think they found another solution that didn't require the crucible

#23
Alushadow

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then why give them the catalyst design ?
if it does not work? no point
she gave them the design since it DOES work
bout our cycle did not have enough time to figure out how it works
just as same as the prothens did not have enough time to complete it
each cycle attempted but since every time the reapers isolated the entire galaxy and eliminated them all start system after start system by attacking directly the citadel
thats another plot hole billions of cycles that "divide and conquer tactic"
worked and now all of a sudden there is an all out galactic war?
and the citadel was attacked last? ...

#24
LiarasShield

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Alushadow wrote...

then why give them the catalyst design ?
if it does not work? no point
she gave them the design since it DOES work
bout our cycle did not have enough time to figure out how it works
just as same as the prothens did not have enough time to complete it
each cycle attempted but since every time the reapers isolated the entire galaxy and eliminated them all start system after start system by attacking directly the citadel
thats another plot hole billions of cycles that "divide and conquer tactic"
worked and now all of a sudden there is an all out galactic war?
and the citadel was attacked last? ...



Once again liara said it didn't work she also provided details on the reapers and our war with them with potentially thousands of years to prepare for the war with the reapers or settle the issues with them in the darkspace or find a solution where you don't have to make uneccessary sacrifices is the way to go I've already stated a million times why I don't like the 3 choices

If absolute power corrupts absolutely eventually shepard ai may become evil or twisted over time from all the power that he or she has gained

I don't think forcing everyone to be part synthetic or organic against their will is the way to have peace

Nor do I think destroying all the geth just to kill the reapers is the way to go

For me rejection will always be the best option because it represents freedom and the decision to choose

#25
D24O

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torudoom wrote...

And also, for the record, it'd be nice to get a clear statement on whether or not BioWare means to treat the Mike Gamble tweet about the next cycle using the Crucible is canonical or not.

I think this is one of the most important details in how we interpert the EC. If the next cycle can win on their own, I tink that actually adds a lot of meaning to the choice. The whole point of it was to let the galaxy win on its own terms, and while it sucks that we have to die, knowing that the galaxy can continue to exist outside of the paridigms of the Catalyst's "solutions" would IMO do a good job helping bridge the thematic disconnect between the endings and the rest of the trilogy.