73 réponses à ce sujet

[LiarasShield]

And who knows if they do use the crucible again perhaps they made it better then even we could and came up with a better solution that doesnt require infinite power merging organics with synthetics and not destroying all machines maybe infact they do find another way

[Clayless]

I was going to read all of this, especially as you said it wasn't going to be too long, and it was going well until the 3rd (non-italicized) paragraph which is unnecessarily long and relays one point of information over and over and over and over again about 40 times.

If you want to keep something from being long then don't waste time with filler. It bores people.

[LiarasShield]

so I have no regret in our cycle losing to give the next one the things they need to beat the reapers without sacrificing their principles or free will

[Baronesa]

Alushadow wrote...

then why give them the catalyst design ?
if it does not work? no point
she gave them the design since it DOES work
bout our cycle did not have enough time to figure out how it works
just as same as the prothens did not have enough time to complete it
each cycle attempted but since every time the reapers isolated the entire galaxy and eliminated them all start system after start system by attacking directly the citadel
thats another plot hole billions of cycles that "divide and conquer tactic"
worked and now all of a sudden there is an all out galactic war?
and the citadel was attacked last? ...

Because she gives them all the information, but listen to her, she tells them that the Crucible did not work. If previous cycle tells you  that the Crucible did not work, would you be stubborn and try to use it? That is why (without twitter) many peopleinfer that next cycle ignores the Crucible and win by other means.

Basically, you paved the way for the next cycle to succeed, and not everything on this cycle is lost, if Asari Stargazer is an indication, other races may have survived to next cycle as well (hypothetical, but if Asari survived, nothing stops other races). Liara tell the next cyclethat the Crucible does not work. By in game information you can clearlyinfer that the next cycle win without using the Crucible or choosing any of the 3 options.

Just by in game information, reject gives a powerful message. You fought till the end, without compromising your core being, and maybe you lose everything, but you give hope and the means to succeed to the next cycle... without having to bow down to the options presented by the Reapers.

Modifié par Baronesa, 29 juin 2012 - 03:03 .

[LiarasShield]

Baronesa wrote...

Alushadow wrote...

then why give them the catalyst design ?
if it does not work? no point
she gave them the design since it DOES work
bout our cycle did not have enough time to figure out how it works
just as same as the prothens did not have enough time to complete it
each cycle attempted but since every time the reapers isolated the entire galaxy and eliminated them all start system after start system by attacking directly the citadel
thats another plot hole billions of cycles that "divide and conquer tactic"
worked and now all of a sudden there is an all out galactic war?
and the citadel was attacked last? ...

Because she gives them all the information, but listen to her, she tells them that the Crucible did not work. If previous cycle tells you  that the Crucible did not work, would you be stubborn and try to use it? That is why (without twitter) many peopleinfer that next cycle ignores the Crucible and win by other means.

Basically, you paved the way for the next cycle to succeed, and not everything on this cycle is lost, if Asari Stargazer is an indication, other races may have survived to next cycle as well (hypothetical, but if Asari survived, nothing stops other races). Liara tell the next cyclethat the Crucible does not work. By in game information you can clearlyinfer that the next cycle win without using the Crucible or choosing any of the 3 options.

Just by in game information, reject gives a powerful message. You fought till the end, without compromising your core being, and maybe you lose everything, but you give hope and the means to succeed to the next cycle... without having to bow down to the options presented by the Reapers.

Why I love rejection so damn much ^^

[the slynx]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I was going to read all of this, especially as you said it wasn't going to be too long, and it was going well until the 3rd (non-italicized) paragraph which is unnecessarily long and relays one point of information over and over and over and over again about 40 times.

If you want to keep something from being long then don't waste time with filler. It bores people.

I did go on for a while about that. I think it's fairly important to note the personal costs of what the Reapers are doing repeatedly, because it really boggles my mind that we're supposed to reconcile with them so easily in some of the basic endings. To that end I don't really consider it filler, but I guess I could trim it down a bit.

But feel free to skip that paragraph if you feel like you've got the gist. Apologies for boring you.

D24O wrote...

I think this is one of the most important
details in how we interpert the EC. If the next cycle can win on their
own, I tink that actually adds a lot of meaning to the choice. The whole
point of it was to let the galaxy win on its own terms, and while it
sucks that we have to die, knowing that the galaxy can continue to exist
outside of the paridigms of the Catalyst's "solutions" would IMO do a
good job helping bridge the thematic disconnect between the endings and
the rest of the trilogy.

Agreed. I'm not sure that's how it's implied to happen, though. I didn't get the impression Liara was saying the Crucible wouldn't work so much as that we didn't get done what we needed to.

[Alushadow]

D24O wrote...

torudoom wrote...

And also, for the record, it'd be nice to get a clear statement on whether or not BioWare means to treat the Mike Gamble tweet about the next cycle using the Crucible is canonical or not.

I think this is one of the most important details in how we interpert the EC. If the next cycle can win on their own, I tink that actually adds a lot of meaning to the choice. The whole point of it was to let the galaxy win on its own terms, and while it sucks that we have to die, knowing that the galaxy can continue to exist outside of the paridigms of the Catalyst's "solutions" would IMO do a good job helping bridge the thematic disconnect between the endings and the rest of the trilogy.

i dont think so
but even if it gives them a chance to win a billion of years more evolved army of crazy ass super advanced ship-army reapers
even if so
1. you let all of your friends and loved ones die a horrible death
2. the geezer states- the ones who came before us fought a terrible war so we wont have to
i seriously dont think they didnt go to war cuz they were superior to thousands reapers
so the only logical solution is - they created the crucible prior to the reaper's arrival
not build it in middle of a full scale galactic war
and found how to activate it before they engaged war with the reapers

[LiarasShield]

Alushadow wrote...

D24O wrote...

torudoom wrote...

And also, for the record, it'd be nice to get a clear statement on whether or not BioWare means to treat the Mike Gamble tweet about the next cycle using the Crucible is canonical or not.

I think this is one of the most important details in how we interpert the EC. If the next cycle can win on their own, I tink that actually adds a lot of meaning to the choice. The whole point of it was to let the galaxy win on its own terms, and while it sucks that we have to die, knowing that the galaxy can continue to exist outside of the paridigms of the Catalyst's "solutions" would IMO do a good job helping bridge the thematic disconnect between the endings and the rest of the trilogy.

i dont think so
but even if it gives them a chance to win a billion of years more evolved army of crazy ass super advanced ship-army reapers
even if so
1. you let all of your friends and loved ones die a horrible death
2. the geezer states- the ones who came before us fought a terrible war so we wont have to
i seriously dont think they didnt go to war cuz they were superior to thousands reapers
so the only logical solution is - they created the crucible prior to the reaper's arrival
not build it in middle of a full scale galactic war
and found how to activate it before they engaged war with the reapers

That or they found a new solution that didn't require the crucible or they were able to use the crucible in a way that wouldn't destroy all machines merge life together or assume direct control lol

[wh00ley 06]

I like this!

[Baronesa]

Or they had such a good technology that their weapons destroyed the reapers and endured the firepower as if it was nothing... having time to prepare and knowing exactly what they are preparing for is a great advantage, specially if you consider that the Reapers are stagnant... they have not improved since the first cycle, because they don't need to, they have destroyed civilizations before they became a serious threat.

[Druzgot]

Well i dont even know how this is possible to exist ideas about conventional win when 1 capital shipped killed almost 1/3 alliance fleet, and there were at least 10-15 capital ships+ neverending destroyers line.

[Elevas]

I was very impressed with the OP.
One thing that bothers me - why did Shepard not radio in to inform the others of what the crucible was going to do?
Regardless of waiting for an answer democratically, I'm more puzzled that there was "guys, the crucible is just a remote control that will let me take over but says it won't work forever and I die/anti-AI-laser/galaxy-wide rape pulse. Also, there's an AI in here that doesn't understand irony: nuke the citadel... now!"

[LiarasShield]

Druzgot wrote...

Well i dont even know how this is possible to exist ideas about conventional win when 1 capital shipped killed almost 1/3 alliance fleet, and there were at least 10-15 capital ships+ neverending destroyers line.

Its called preperation and knowing your enemies weakness for over thousands of years ^^ and already being prepared before the conflict comes to pass

[flanny]

Baronesa wrote...

Alushadow wrote...

then why give them the catalyst design ?
if it does not work? no point
she gave them the design since it DOES work
bout our cycle did not have enough time to figure out how it works
just as same as the prothens did not have enough time to complete it
each cycle attempted but since every time the reapers isolated the entire galaxy and eliminated them all start system after start system by attacking directly the citadel
thats another plot hole billions of cycles that "divide and conquer tactic"
worked and now all of a sudden there is an all out galactic war?
and the citadel was attacked last? ...

Because she gives them all the information, but listen to her, she tells them that the Crucible did not work. If previous cycle tells you  that the Crucible did not work, would you be stubborn and try to use it? That is why (without twitter) many peopleinfer that next cycle ignores the Crucible and win by other means.

Basically, you paved the way for the next cycle to succeed, and not everything on this cycle is lost, if Asari Stargazer is an indication, other races may have survived to next cycle as well (hypothetical, but if Asari survived, nothing stops other races). Liara tell the next cyclethat the Crucible does not work. By in game information you can clearlyinfer that the next cycle win without using the Crucible or choosing any of the 3 options.

Just by in game information, reject gives a powerful message. You fought till the end, without compromising your core being, and maybe you lose everything, but you give hope and the means to succeed to the next cycle... without having to bow down to the options presented by the Reapers.

considering the ending in whole i can't escape the idea that this ending was designed as a middle finger to those who rejected bioware's own ending. I assumed bioware said that the next cycle uses the crucible as a way of saying no matter what you do our ending prevails anyway 

if bioware meant it as a real ending they would have expanded on and would have given people the achievement for completing the game

[Baronesa]

Druzgot wrote...

Well i dont even know how this is possible to exist ideas about conventional win when 1 capital shipped killed almost 1/3 alliance fleet, and there were at least 10-15 capital ships+ neverending destroyers line.

Yet many capital ships were destroyed before they invaded Palaven, and then during the Palaven miracle...

During ME1 we didn't had Thannix Cannons, or better shielding etc.  But that ispointlesssince we are talking about the NEXT cycle winning conventionally thanks to Liara's capsule.

[Jonata]

Refusal is the worst thing a man can do. Even Dante Alighieri agreed that doing nothing is worst than doing something wrong. I can understand that your Shepard reject everything the Catalyst says, even the possibility tho Destroy him and the Reapers, but don't complain if that choice don't give you an happy ending.

When he's rejecting the Catalyst's options, people have said more than once that the Reapers cannot be defeated. They are invincible by their own nature. Even with 50.000 years to prepare, the next cycle can only use the Crucible to defeat them.

Baronesa wrote...

During ME1 we didn't had Thannix Cannons, or better shielding etc.  But that ispointlesssince we are talking about the NEXT cycle winning conventionally thanks to Liara's capsule.

 

This is impossible. For every soldier you lose, they got two. They don't need eezo, they don't need resources. For every capital ship you can destroy, there are several dreadnoughts that goes down. And while you're fighting them, they're indoctrinating your leaders... they are invincible. Period.

Modifié par Jonata, 29 juin 2012 - 03:33 .

[Baronesa]

flanny wrote...

considering the ending in whole i can't escape the idea that this ending was designed as a middle finger to those who rejected bioware's own ending. I assumed bioware said that the next cycle uses the crucible as a way of saying no matter what you do our ending prevails anyway 

if bioware meant it as a real ending they would have expanded on and would have given people the achievement for completing the game

Agreed...

But keep in mind that the info about next cycle using the Crucible comes from twitter... it is not present IN game.

What matter is what it is presented on the story. When you make a story or present a paper, the people only judge what you have given them, not your intentions and then you can't say "Ohh i meant it this way"

[Druzgot]

LiarasShield wrote...

Druzgot wrote...

Well i dont even know how this is possible to exist ideas about conventional win when 1 capital shipped killed almost 1/3 alliance fleet, and there were at least 10-15 capital ships+ neverending destroyers line.

Its called preperation and knowing your enemies weakness for over thousands of years ^^ and already being prepared before the conflict comes to pass

You are right, destroyers have weakness however still much more powerfull than any dreadnaught i think, every capital ship is different so you cant know their weakness.

[flanny]

Druzgot wrote...

Well i dont even know how this is possible to exist ideas about conventional win when 1 capital shipped killed almost 1/3 alliance fleet, and there were at least 10-15 capital ships+ neverending destroyers line.

i capital ship + the geth fleet, who at the time had the biggest fleet in the galaxy, it was the geth who destroyed the destiny ascension (if you leave the council). The alliance only takes the extra damage if you engage the geth while the citedal arms are closed

[LiarasShield]

Druzgot wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Druzgot wrote...

Well i dont even know how this is possible to exist ideas about conventional win when 1 capital shipped killed almost 1/3 alliance fleet, and there were at least 10-15 capital ships+ neverending destroyers line.

Its called preperation and knowing your enemies weakness for over thousands of years ^^ and already being prepared before the conflict comes to pass

You are right, destroyers have weakness however still much more powerfull than any dreadnaught i think, every capital ship is different so you cant know their weakness.

Yet after the collector ship batttle we have schematics of reaper weakness and knowledge of our enemy as a whole know imagine the next generation knowing that for thousands of years come on dude

[The Not So Illusive Man]

I felt that the reject ending was an excellent addition, it allowed people to stalwartly refuse the options presented by a flawed AI construct and go out with a bang. Shepard will have obviously informed the Admiral what happened after refusing the Catalyst, but we don't need to be shown that. We are constantly told that we can't win conventionally throughout the series, and when it comes down to it, we don't.
However, thanks to our actions, the next cycle is able to defeat the Reapers with the help stored within the archives dotted throughout the galaxy by Liara. Easy to infer.

Just because you are not spoon fed every little detail about the conflict doesn't mean that it didn't happen, which seems to be a major problem with a significant amount of the complainers on these forums.

Modifié par The Not So Illusive Man, 29 juin 2012 - 03:36 .

[D24O]

In my little blurb about refuse, I'm talking about the metatextual implications of the next cycle using or not using the Crucible. I think that it's kind of stupid for Shepard to let everybody die, but whether nor not the galaxy is allowed by the writers to win on its terms, instead of working from the catalyst's paradigm changes what kind of story they were telling.

[Druzgot]

Baronesa wrote...

Druzgot wrote...

Well i dont even know how this is possible to exist ideas about conventional win when 1 capital shipped killed almost 1/3 alliance fleet, and there were at least 10-15 capital ships+ neverending destroyers line.

Yet many capital ships were destroyed before they invaded Palaven, and then during the Palaven miracle...

During ME1 we didn't had Thannix Cannons, or better shielding etc.  But that ispointlesssince we are talking about the NEXT cycle winning conventionally thanks to Liara's capsule.

OK, but i think that it isnt obvious if next cycle will believe in that and if they want to preapre they will built superior army= starving if they wont they will simply lose to reapers

And what matter +3 of reasearch about new weapons technology when reapers had soo superior advantage before, in my opinion it doesnt change a lot.

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

Well, I proposed the following:

1: You buy the next 3 mission DLC for Mass Effect 3.
2: After completion of the mission, you will receive a piece of information on the Reapers. (like: Who were the Catalyst's Creators?)
3: Each piece of information has an impact on the dialogue with the Catalyst, in the form of a coupel of extra lines
4: Collecting all the pieces of information, thus unlocking all the lines of dialogue, allows you to succesfully make a savings throw, and convince the Catalyst to stop the Cycle, because Synthetic and Organic CAN live side-by-side together.

Low/High EMS is of influence in whether you can convince the Catalyst (since the pieces of information only unlock the option, not whether it is succesful), and low/high EMS is of influence, in whether you were actually correct or not.

Modifié par Samuel_Valkyrie, 29 juin 2012 - 03:41 .

[Druzgot]

flanny wrote...

Druzgot wrote...

Well i dont even know how this is possible to exist ideas about conventional win when 1 capital shipped killed almost 1/3 alliance fleet, and there were at least 10-15 capital ships+ neverending destroyers line.

i capital ship + the geth fleet, who at the time had the biggest fleet in the galaxy, it was the geth who destroyed the destiny ascension (if you leave the council). The alliance only takes the extra damage if you engage the geth while the citedal arms are closed

Yes and this is why i said almost, i think geths had huge losses before alliance attacked

Where it was said that geths have largest fleet? (only heretics attacked)

Modifié par Druzgot, 29 juin 2012 - 03:47 .