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Extended Cut: taking back refusal


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#51
Druzgot

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LiarasShield wrote...

Druzgot wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Druzgot wrote...

Well i dont even know how this is possible to exist ideas about conventional win when 1 capital shipped killed almost 1/3 alliance fleet, and there were at least 10-15 capital ships+ neverending destroyers line.



Its called preperation and knowing your enemies weakness for over thousands of years ^^ and already being prepared before the conflict comes to pass


You are right, destroyers have weakness however still much more powerfull than any dreadnaught i think, every capital ship is different so you cant know their weakness.


Yet after the collector ship batttle we have schematics of reaper weakness and knowledge of our enemy as a whole know imagine the next generation knowing that for thousands of years come on dude


Humanity discovered prothean technology something like 150 years before ME1. Other races descovered it sooner but i think it is impossible to discover it thousands of years before reaprs attack because reapers attacks were coordinated, and they always left a guard so they would know if organics prepare for them

#52
CoolHanc101

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Miezul_Carpatin wrote...

Refusal should be the best ending, yet somehow they managed to make it extremely boring and uninteresting. How did the next cycle beat the reapers? What happened to Shepard? Did he manage to leave the Citadel or what happened?
Refusal ends very abruptly unfortunately.


Yes, I felt like there's definitely a great potential to elaborate upon but... well, Bioware did not take that chance for some reason.

And my guess:
A. They ran out of time for the Extended Cut.
B. They did not like the fact that fans didn't enjoy the first three endings.

#53
LiarasShield

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Since the next generation probably had long time to prepare with the data that was given also we don't know if all the races of our time died maybe one or two of them did survive Into the next cycle either way they had enough time to prepare and look for another solution that they probably did find one and either a didn't have to use the crucible again or b use it in a way that doesn't destroy free will merging life or assuming direct control like I brought up earlyer

#54
Aquilas

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Gamble's tweet was absolutely necessary if BioWare was to protect its "artistic integrity." You can't base an entire series on the God of the ME Universe using the Space Magic Wand to change the very fiber of existence across the entire galaxy--as the only possible, effective New Solution--and then have the next Cycle not use it.

Liara specifically says the Crucible did not work. She also warns the next Cycle not to make the same mistakes she and her allies did. She'd provide data on all the effort and resources the allied species devoted to the Crucible, to something that did not work. Would the next Cycle really reject that advice, that flat-out warning? No. Gamble's tweet is another classic example of fixing an oversight, a mistake, in the actual game content via external means.

Note the writers did something similar in the game content itself. When you run through the expanded Catalyst dialogue, the Catalyst changes its story: it says the Reapers harvest both organic -and- synthetic life. Someone realized that if the Reapers harvested only organics, they'd leave behind the synthetics, who'd have 50,000 years to work on eradicating -all- organics. Oops.

And Reject clearly=fail. Not a principled rejection of abhorrent choices, choices Shepard feels are flat-out wrong. Nope, we get no scene of Shepard viewing the battle with grim resolve, or cheering on the allies for fighting the good fight. Or perhaps Hackett rallying the fleet: "Dammit! The Crucible didn't work! Well, let's go down fighting! Let's show 'em we came together and gave our all! Give 'em Hell!", followed by a cutscene similar to the final Quarian-Geth battle if things go wrong on Rannoch.  What we get is a distant camera shot of Shepard standing atop the Citadel alone, slouching, and forlorn.

Lots of people have mentioned what happens if you shoot Star-jar in his glowy litte brain, so I'm not going to describe it. But if you think that isn't a response to all the videos showing Shepard blasting the Catalyst in vain, then you're fooling yourself.

They could fix Reject by stretching ME lore without breaking it as they break it with Star-jar and Space Magic. But they won't. That'd mean they were wrong, and they've proven pretty conclusively they can't admit that. Boy, I wish I was the one who's wrong.

Modifié par Aquilas, 29 juin 2012 - 07:20 .


#55
the slynx

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The more I think about the current refusal ending, and allow myself to believe that this cycle fought tooth and nail, and the next cycle really did not employ the Crucible and the Sky Kid's options, the more comfortable I am with it. (That's the opposite of the initial endings from a few months back, so that's something.) Sure, it sucks this cycle fails. And it really sucks there are no details given.

I strongly believe that if this ending is to work, it needs to show, in some considerable detail, ways in which the current cycle fights back hard, and in all sorts of unconventional ways - including things like trying to use new information about the Reapers having a leader against them, or using downed Reapers and backwards-engineering their tech, things like disabling safety protocols on FTL drives to create FTL missiles, and so on. (And, later, passing this information on to the next cycle when defeat becomes apparent.) The refusal ending as it is simply comes across as too passive, and casts this cycle in a dismissive role of victims, not agents. I don't believe my Shepard fought simply to preserve life as an ideal, so much as the lives of the people and communities and races with which he contemporaneously existed. Anything that's not firmly indicative of that salient fact misses the mark by a very long shot.

Maybe I'll try sketching out a series of mental slides to fill in the missing details of refuse that will allow people who come from a similar perspective to reconcile the ending we got with the ending that should have been there.

Then again, if BioWare is dedicated to the next cycle still using the Crucible, refusal is flat-out terrible, and reconciliation is pointless.

#56
my Aim is True

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Refusal's an afterthought. It doesn't really feel like it was meant to stand on it's own as an ending, at least not on the same level of our RGB choices

#57
Applepie_Svk

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IanPolaris wrote...


Of course they did.  You rejected Bioware's almighty "artistic vision" and "deep philosophical insight" ...
-Polaris


Shhh ... or you become enemy of the state ... :ph34r:

#58
Baronesa

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Still... Reject is second most popular option on the poll xD

#59
Alushadow

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some people are hopeless trying to believe in things that logically can never happen
it took the whole human fleet to kick sovereign in the quad
and this time you face a horde ships as sovereign said
"we are legion the time of our return is coming our numbers will darken the sky of every world
you cannot escape your doom"
its just THAT simple
they give each civilization about 50 thousand years enough time to reach its potential
to be eradicated
he also said these things
"new civilization is based on the tech of the mass relays our tech by using it your society develops along the path's we desire"
meaning the new civ will be Reaper tech based just like any other cycle
they can NEVER surpass them by evolving with the tech they were given by reapers
he also says
"we impose order on the chaos of organic evolution you exist because we allow it
and you will end because we demand it"
reaction was " they are harvesting us letting us advance to the level they need then wiping us out"
meaning one civilization or 10 built on the tech of the reapers
can never win this war by any conventional means
so face the facts

#60
Baronesa

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The whole human fleet?

*rewatches ME and ME2 Al Jilani interview* Nope... just the Fifth Fleet.

#61
flanny

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torudoom wrote...

The more I think about the current refusal ending, and allow myself to believe that this cycle fought tooth and nail, and the next cycle really did not employ the Crucible and the Sky Kid's options, the more comfortable I am with it. (That's the opposite of the initial endings from a few months back, so that's something.) Sure, it sucks this cycle fails. And it really sucks there are no details given.

I strongly believe that if this ending is to work, it needs to show, in some considerable detail, ways in which the current cycle fights back hard, and in all sorts of unconventional ways - including things like trying to use new information about the Reapers having a leader against them, or using downed Reapers and backwards-engineering their tech, things like disabling safety protocols on FTL drives to create FTL missiles, and so on. (And, later, passing this information on to the next cycle when defeat becomes apparent.) The refusal ending as it is simply comes across as too passive, and casts this cycle in a dismissive role of victims, not agents. I don't believe my Shepard fought simply to preserve life as an ideal, so much as the lives of the people and communities and races with which he contemporaneously existed. Anything that's not firmly indicative of that salient fact misses the mark by a very long shot.

Maybe I'll try sketching out a series of mental slides to fill in the missing details of refuse that will allow people who come from a similar perspective to reconcile the ending we got with the ending that should have been there.

Then again, if BioWare is dedicated to the next cycle still using the Crucible, refusal is flat-out terrible, and reconciliation is pointless.


as i said i think that is the point, it's made to be terrible, the fact you don't unlock the completion achievement says it all for me. Don't get me wrong i do love the idea of the reject option, but i can't see bioware making one... That said if all bioware can be bothered to do on the other ending(s) is make a slide show there is no reason why fans can't make slides of their own 

like a Zaeed pressing a down a grenade while surrounded by banshees
or James destroying a sovereign class reaper by ramming it's gun with a shuttle
or Geth sacrificing themselves to save fleeing quarians
or Wrex and Grunt standing back to back against a sea of never ending reapers 
or Jack ripping off the a destroyers front armour off to expose it gun 

just off the top of my head

#62
WYLDMAXX

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I would have liked to have seen the option of overloading the Crucible so it destroys the Catalyst. As result, Reapers a thrown into chaos and retreat back to dark space with the Citadel.

ME4 would be the mission to save Shepard. Garus or the LI could be our new Avatar character.

#63
Alushadow

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Baronesa wrote...

The whole human fleet?

*rewatches ME and ME2 Al Jilani interview* Nope... just the Fifth Fleet.


yea but he did decimate the whole asari-turian fleet so
still
and again u need the whole fifth fleet for 1 reaper
there are thousand of reapers
u need a number of fleets that simply does not exist to win by conventional methods

#64
flanny

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Alushadow wrote...

some people are hopeless trying to believe in things that logically can never happen
it took the whole human fleet to kick sovereign in the quad
and this time you face a horde ships as sovereign said
"we are legion the time of our return is coming our numbers will darken the sky of every world
you cannot escape your doom"
its just THAT simple
they give each civilization about 50 thousand years enough time to reach its potential
to be eradicated
he also said these things
"new civilization is based on the tech of the mass relays our tech by using it your society develops along the path's we desire"
meaning the new civ will be Reaper tech based just like any other cycle
they can NEVER surpass them by evolving with the tech they were given by reapers
he also says
"we impose order on the chaos of organic evolution you exist because we allow it
and you will end because we demand it"
reaction was " they are harvesting us letting us advance to the level they need then wiping us out"
meaning one civilization or 10 built on the tech of the reapers
can never win this war by any conventional means
so face the facts


so we can't believe we have a chance to even give the reapers a bloody nose, but we must believe the enemy boss beams us to his lair to give us buttons to destroy or control all he's worked for countless cycles for no apparent reason?... or space rape?

and that's not even getting in some of the massive plot holes thoughout all ending; like why Harbinger ignores you at the space lift and what was the point of ME1 if the catalyst is the citadel etc...

#65
Baronesa

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WYLDMAXX wrote...

I would have liked to have seen the option of overloading the Crucible so it destroys the Catalyst. As result, Reapers a thrown into chaos and retreat back to dark space with the Citadel.

ME4 would be the mission to save Shepard. Garus or the LI could be our new Avatar character.



If there is a ME4... I hope we dont see ANY of the chars we met here... at all... and that we can choose our race/gender for a completely differnet intro arc.

But looking at how things are... I doubt a new ME would even be a RPG, Bioware seems to be moving away from RPG and more into action games.

#66
flanny

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Baronesa wrote...

WYLDMAXX wrote...

I would have liked to have seen the option of overloading the Crucible so it destroys the Catalyst. As result, Reapers a thrown into chaos and retreat back to dark space with the Citadel.

ME4 would be the mission to save Shepard. Garus or the LI could be our new Avatar character.



If there is a ME4... I hope we dont see ANY of the chars we met here... at all... and that we can choose our race/gender for a completely differnet intro arc.

But looking at how things are... I doubt a new ME would even be a RPG, Bioware seems to be moving away from RPG and more into action games.


it wouldn't surprise me if they make it a MMORPG to make EA more money 

#67
Alushadow

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Baronesa wrote...

WYLDMAXX wrote...

I would have liked to have seen the option of overloading the Crucible so it destroys the Catalyst. As result, Reapers a thrown into chaos and retreat back to dark space with the Citadel.

ME4 would be the mission to save Shepard. Garus or the LI could be our new Avatar character.



If there is a ME4... I hope we dont see ANY of the chars we met here... at all... and that we can choose our race/gender for a completely differnet intro arc.

But looking at how things are... I doubt a new ME would even be a RPG, Bioware seems to be moving away from RPG and more into action games.


i said more then once ME3 is a stupid weak plotted game
the game-play is nice but it does not cover for the very weak plot and bad ending the game has
like i also said before
we made decisions fought wars and killed things to change the outcome
to in the end be presented with "do as we say or die"
we got 4 options all of em stink
either you die and control us till you go mad like the last AI and start murdering the galaxy
or you force everyone to become robocop without blinking an eye o yea and u die for that as well
or you destroy all machines among them are your allies the geth who got uploaded the mind of your trusty friend legion and the one who saved you from being spaced again EDI and you are left to die in some pile of rubble
or you die
yea to think about these endings that's creativity in the making pff lols

#68
D24O

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torudoom wrote...

The more I think about the current refusal ending, and allow myself to believe that this cycle fought tooth and nail, and the next cycle really did not employ the Crucible and the Sky Kid's options, the more comfortable I am with it. (That's the opposite of the initial endings from a few months back, so that's something.) Sure, it sucks this cycle fails. And it really sucks there are no details given.

Then again, if BioWare is dedicated to the next cycle still using the Crucible, refusal is flat-out terrible, and reconciliation is pointless.

I don'e even need an epic space battle showing us that we killed a bunch of Reapers. I would love that, but I don't need to see it. I can accept the excuse that they didn't have time to make that cutscene for refuse. I can't really accept that they add that caviat, over twitter no less, and end up making it pointless.

#69
Aquilas

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Here’s a great article with links to others:
 
Letting Go of Mass Effect 3
 
Note the Rob Munsch quote. BSN fans aren’t the only ones who think Reject is a slap in the face.
 
Here’s another super article:
 
The Real Hero of Mass Effect 3 Explains How -and Why- the "Reject Ending" Works
 
Griffiths succinctly explains the way I envision Reject playing out.
 
Like torudoom, I envision Shepard’s cycle winning in the end—just not in Shepard’s cycle.

Modifié par Aquilas, 29 juin 2012 - 07:36 .


#70
Applepie_Svk

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Same feeling bro ...

#71
Dendio1

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Give em an inch and they ask for a mile

#72
Malkeor

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See the whole point of this friggin series is to make it a HARD CHOICE.
By forcing you into these three options for a real ending, it was supposed to cause discussion and talk and more talk.

If refusal was the best ending, it would probably make the other choices irrelevant, because then it would be the "true" ending. That's NOT what they wanted. They wanted the three choices to be difficult and all legit on their own terms.
By making refusal an alternate win button it would just be a mess...see below

Also, if it was the other way around and the epic "true" ending, then they'd still have a whole ton of explaining to do on how we win without using space magic. Or a different form of space magic....and that being the "true" ending, it would have to be the only ending to even make it acceptable, but taking the choices out would defeat the purpose of their series and what they were trying to do.


Sorry if im confusing or not making sense...but honestly what does make sense anymore for this game? :P

Modifié par Malkeor, 29 juin 2012 - 07:27 .


#73
the slynx

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D24O wrote...

I don'e even need an epic space battle showing us that we killed a bunch of Reapers. I would love that, but I don't need to see it. I can accept the excuse that they didn't have time to make that cutscene for refuse. I can't really accept that they add that caviat, over twitter no less, and end up making it pointless.


Even slides or a voice-over - something to show Shepard's cycle didn't roll over - would make all the difference. But yeah, the ending has to produce a different outcome than the Sky Kid choices.

Malkeor wrote...

See the whole point of this friggin series is to make it a HARD CHOICE.
By forcing you into these three options for a real ending, it was supposed to cause discussion and talk and more talk.

If
refusal was the best ending, it would probably make the other choices
irrelevant, because then it would be the "true" ending. That's NOT what
they wanted. They wanted the three choices to be difficult and all
legit on their own terms.


I think refusal can be handled in a very costly way that still makes it a hard choice. There are plenty of people arguing on the forum that not taking Sky Kid's choices is a big mistake even if refusal could eventually lead to a different solution. You could end the war almost immediately on Sky Kid's terms, or somewhere down the road with great battles and significant suffering accruing along the way.

#74
solidprice

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Aquilas wrote...

Here’s a great article with links to others:
 
Letting Go of Mass Effect 3
 
Note the Rob Munsch quote. BSN fans aren’t the only ones who think Reject is a slap in the face.
 
Here’s another super article:
 
The Real Hero of Mass Effect 3 Explains How -and Why- the "Reject Ending" Works
 
Griffiths succinctly explains the way I envision Reject playing out.
 
Like torudoom, I envision Shepard’s cycle winning in the end—just not in Shepard’s cycle.


i like Liara a lot more now. even if she is a bit of a stalker:unsure: