402 réponses à ce sujet

[the slynx]

numark wrote...


I also feel that this could have been a great opportunity to showcase the players EMS.  Refusal ending w/ low EMS? Total failure, Liara's time capsule for the next cycle the outcome.

BUT, Refusal ending w/ high EMS? Shepard knows that he/she is going to suffer horrendous casualties....  Maybe even make the loss so horriffic that the idea of "victory" itself is even questioned by the player; ie, we won, but we lost so much, was refusal worth it? did we really win? etc

Agreed.

I really like the idea that rejection should be costly, in part because I don't really think the endings in the Extended Cut are presented as anything but huge successes. I also think that one of the attractions of rejection is that it requires everyone to work together, not Shepard pulling this space messiah stuff on his/her own. Unity through diversity strikes me as one of the themes of the series that was sort of jettisoned in the colour endings.

As a totally self-indulgent plug, take a look at the ending I suggested over here or several of the other suggestions in this thread.

[Bigdoser]

jcmccorm wrote...

I was one of the ones who proposed the SCREW YOU choice. Yes, I *asked* for this ending. Why? Choice. Imposing your will on a galaxy is morally wrong. As well, I was hoping for a situation where the Star Child actually explained what was going on and sold me on what they were doing. I would come to the shocking realization that, "Oh my God. He's right. This *is* the only way." And so I'd back down.

This ending is bitter-sweet. In the end, Shepard wins and destroys the reapers in a future cycle. But he has to sacrifice everything for it. And that was another thing I was looking for. An ending that would actually be a different flavor than the rest. The rest of them were all along the same theme of rebuilding and such. This one was a totally different line of thinking.

Problem is the next cycle uses the crucible and ends the war on the reapers terms making the sacrifice mean nothing.

[Uncle Jo]

Sorry OP but it isn't.

If the reject option lead to the best (or at least to a good) outcome, I think that very few of us would have chosen something else. It'd also have meant that BW clearly admitted that their vision of the endings is wrong, which would be suicidal. It's as much their game as ours.
That said, they've aknowledged that you can disagree with them, thus giving you the option to refuse the brat's insane logic, not compromise with your beliefs and "die free", which is a step forward. Not a great one, since you lose at the end, but still one.
And to shoot the Brat in the head and see him getting mad is still priceless.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 28 juin 2012 - 03:43 .

[httinks2006]

numark wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

@wryterra

That's fine, and just to be clear I wasn't so much talking directly to you when I said that the idea that this is something done just to take a pot shot at the fans, because this sentiment is actually quite common on the boards.

The achievement thing may actually just be a bug. The events that fire for the other endings would have already been a part of the base game and already present. Achievements and trophies are also something that have Microsoft and Sony have some pretty tight controls over. I don't work directly with online, but I know we had to slash a ton of achievements for DAO consoles due to numbers requirements, and there are certain restrictions over what types of achievements can exist, what their values can be, and so forth.


Having said that, you are absolutely right that that ending could have been better fleshed out. I don't know what the decision process was (and trying to come up with explanations is nothing short of trying to make excuses), but in the end I still feel that providing this option is better and provides a more interesting choice for the player (I fully agree with all the posters that felt that the player should have been able to reject the premise suggested by the Catalyst).

It seems like it's more down to the execution of it, which sucks because obviously that means it missed the mark with you. Like I said there's not much I can do about it, but you felt strongly enough about it to make a thread so I opted to talk with you about it since it's about the only thing I felt I could do haha.

Anyways, I'm sorry that you feel it was a personal jab. It can be tough for myself to separate the details of what it is that people don't like about it. I know there are some that just distill it down to "I want to win conventionally and it's crap that I can't with this choice" and they feel insulted because things don't play out the way they want and in fact the losing outright regardless makes it feel like a snub. I am glad that you don't seem to feel this way, though it doesn't really help your situation haha.


Cheers.

Allan

I agree, in that I don't think the developers intentionally meant this is a jab to the players.  But in the way that it comes across, that is what it felt like and even before I came onto these boards that was one of the first things that ran through my mind after seeing it.  Like you said, and I agree too, when it comes to these kinds of things, it's all down to the execution of it =P

I also feel that this could have been a great opportunity to showcase the players EMS.  Refusal ending w/ low EMS? Total failure, Liara's time capsule for the next cycle the outcome.

BUT, Refusal ending w/ high EMS? Shepard knows that he/she is going to suffer horrendous casualties. Maybe even the loss of a squadmember (or even the love interest! ) or the Alliance 3rd or 5th fleets, Admiral Hackett dies, or some other terrible casualty.  It would be some terrible price to achieve conventional "victory" yes, but one with Shepard holding fast to his/her beliefs.  Maybe even make the loss so horriffic that the idea of "victory" itself is even questioned by the player; ie, we won, but we lost so much, was refusal worth it? did we really win? etc

I agree 1000* wanted  rainbows and bunnies sure I could have that and do a happy dance but I don't have to have it .I can live with the above if it was carried out well

[KLGChaos]

Of course they weren't going to win... Bioware needs the game to be all philosophical and grimdark. Happy endings are so passe that everything has to be bittersweet or it sucks. No matter how much effort you put in, you're doomed to fail as it's the only reasonable and emotional solution. Happy endings can't provide any source of emotional release. Note my sarcasm.

The problem with the end will always be the same. The things you do in the previous games and all that EMS really don't matter all that much in the end. It will always come down to three choices where you're forced to sacrifice something to win. There are no happy endings at Bioware anymore and I highly doubt there ever will be again. It's just not "cool" to them, even if it does go against the themes of overcoming all odds that the games previously established.

Heck, even KoToR, which had an awesome, uplifting ending if you won got ruined by ToR and what they did to Revan.

Sadly, the themes of love, friendship and a big gun to overcome all hardships for truly happy ending has become a lost artform. It's the emo generation, after all.

Modifié par KLGChaos, 28 juin 2012 - 04:04 .

[Codename_Code]

- SO BE IT
Wow you are a reaper, Im glad I didnt pick any of your traps. Joker emergency evac, lets die free people ! lets give them hell !

Bioware - nope, just die. Some person in the next cycle will pick any of our gloriuos artistic options. Now get the hell out of my game.

[Daniel_N7]

I agree that the Refusal ending was the weakest part of the EC - it had such an amazing potential and ultimately became a missed opportunity. Maybe we can convince BioWare to release the Rejection Ending Extended Cut DLC! )

But, serioulsy, that abrupt ending... It was almost as if, when you choose the dialogue option «I won't make that decision» you would get an instant Critical Mission Failure screen! Come on BioWare, you can do better! Pleeeaseee....

[Orumon]

This is true. It did sound childish and given it's brevity definitely holds true to the attitude displayed by bioware over the past few months.

[cavs25]

For refuse to be well implemented...depending on your EMS
the fleets go down in a blaze of glory and make a huge dent in the Reaper forces making it possible for the next cycle to win conventionally.

[v3paR]

KLGChaos wrote...[...]
Sadly, the themes of love, friendship and a big gun to overcome all hardships for truly happy ending has become a lost artform. It's the emo generation, after all.

I don't agree. You just can't win a war hoping that everything you know would remain intact.

Ofcourse that doesn't mean that the only way to win is to blow the whole galaxy into pieces.
But there must be some sacrifices. This makes the whole thing more real. Because war is cruel.

Otherwise it would be like "Ok, Reapers are gone. Let me finish my drink and give me another enemy to kill."
(unless we are talking about comedy. then yes that would work.)

Is there any decent, serious movie about war with happy ending?

[GdawgTuk]

Cstaf wrote...

Reject is my favorite ending for my paragon Shepard. It's just a shame that we didn't get to see the galaxy go down with guns blazing.

First, I agree with you and this is what I will choose if i can ever bring myself to play the story (i was playing only the occasional MP battle until this update came out). I find it amusing though that though the reject ending is just as much an FU to Casey Hudson as it is for us. Yeah he made it terrible, which I'll never believe wasn't on purpose, but isnt the fact it is still preferred by so many over his original and newly extended endings a giant slap in the face to him? It serves as a testimate to just how awful his endings were in the first place. Ive watched them countless times and I still have no clue why they went that direction. I honestly think he should have went with the indoctrination concept (even if not originally planned) and held onto that for dear life and expanded on that  in time for this release instead of keeping the s%^* flowing from the prior epic fail.

Modifié par GdawgTuk, 28 juin 2012 - 05:52 .

[RiouHotaru]

I love the rampant over-interpretation people use to justify their dislike.

[GdawgTuk]

Codename_Code wrote...

- SO BE IT
Wow you are a reaper, Im glad I didnt pick any of your traps. Joker emergency evac, lets die free people ! lets give them hell !

Bioware - nope, just die. Some person in the next cycle will pick any of our gloriuos artistic options. Now get the hell out of my game.

Here is my question to you and everyone, not to mention one I struggle back and forth with when I think about it. If they used the reject ending for the basis of a new trilogy, would you buy it?

Im torn on the concept, because currently I have no further plans to support bioware.

[Clayless]

cavs25 wrote...

For refuse to be well implemented...depending on your EMS
the fleets go down in a blaze of glory and make a huge dent in the Reaper forces making it possible for the next cycle to win conventionally.

Wouldn't work, Reapers will just come through the Citadel as usual.

[xLeth]

the starchild had to turn into a bioware developer when it said "SO BE IT!"

[SirEuain]

v3paR wrote...

I don't agree. You just can't win a war hoping that everything you know would remain intact.

You especially can't if you throw up your hands and give up in despair. That's what Shepard did. No last stand. No attempt to avert the fate the starchild decreed. No argument of the starchild's glaring logical fallacies or effort to try to desperately pick another option from the copious (if utterly alien) tech at hand.

Shepard just stands there. His allies just die.

Is there any decent, serious movie about war with happy ending?

Is there any decent, serious war movie where the protagonist struggles against impossible odds, then finds another seemingly insurmountable obstacle, and then decides the appropriate response is to abandon all hope of victory?

[Yigorse]

I thought the refusal ending was pretty good actually. You do sort of save the galaxy, just 50k years later. Although you sort of screwed over everyone in the current cycle just because you wanted to shoot vent-boy, in the words of Tali'Zorah: "Still totally worth it".

The summaries for the other endings were good (some awesome art in there), I honestly feel this one was put in just to point out that the reason you weren't given a choice to fight the reapers conventionally was because there was utterly no hope of defeating them.

[SirEuain]

Just like there was utterly no hope for the geth and the quarians to find peace, the krogan to free themselves of the genophage, or Shepard to be resurrected?

[AtlasMickey]

wryterra wrote...

I find nothing insulting in the idea that an option for Shepard to refuse has been added. 

My view of it as an insult is that it is executed in a way that is unsatisfying, brief and dismissive.

Shepard gives a bold speech about fighting and dying free then literally stands there motionless as the camera sweeps around her showing everyone dying. She doesn't attempt to radio Hackett, the Normandy or anyone. She doesn't attempt to leave the Catalyst chamber to find a way off the Ciatdel, she stands there absolutely inert for the whole ending. Having vowed action what we are shown, in a DLC specifically designed to show us more in the endings, is absolute inaction. 

Then we get, as I said, a brief shot of Liara giving us just the 'Shepard failed' conclusion, to remind the player they failed. Not that you stood up for your beliefs, that you failed.

The Stargazer scene. When I said I'm sure it's there to maintain the structure of the ending I'm talking simply from a design point of view. The last image on the storyboard has been that rising shot from the winter planet with the Stargazer and the child looking out into space as they begin 'one more story'. That's always been the final image. The fact that that hasn't changed here is more about maintaining that final image than making 'Refuse' any more satisfying an ending. 

And then you aren't given the achievement for completing the game. The message here is either, it's an oversight which implies less care went into this ending, or it's a deliberate choice on behalf of the team that choosing the 'Refuse' ending does not count as game completion. That definitely seems dismissive.

You seem surprised. Do you not see your own reflection in this? "Refuse" is to "Dismiss." All that surprises me here is that your own dismissiveness was acknowledged in such a thoughtful way. 

[Yigorse]

SirEuain wrote...

Just like there was utterly no hope for the geth and the quarians to find peace, the krogan to free themselves of the genophage, or Shepard to be resurrected?

The Geth and the Quarians' mistrust and paranoia was what caused their war, which could be overcome by Shepard telling them to wise the hell up, the cure to the genophage was always a possibility, someone just had to have the will to do it.  Even Shepard's resurrection was the result of enough applied science.

It's a matter of scale.  The combined might of every single starship in the Galaxy doesn't even come close to the power the Reaper fleet can field.  It's not a question of devotion, courage or belief, it's just not possible.

[Mobius-Silent]

I think we're aiming our discontent cannon at the symptom rather than problem.

People want to reject:
a) The Crucible
The Catalyst
c) The Choices presented

Because they are a terrible way to end a good series. Bioware gave us the ability to reject but presented us with the outcome while assuming that the above were _good_ narrative instruments hence rejection was a _bad_ option.

People wanted to refuse the whole thing, throw it away and do something else (Something "good"). Not be told why they couldn't (And told poorly at that)

The EC was much better than the OC ending, those involved should be congratulated, but the _basic premise_ was terrible, there was nothing the EC team could have done about that given the mandate they were given.

The EC end is no longer mechanically bad, but it is still conceptually bad. and people are going to mix up their emotions when given the opportunity to "reject" something they don't like.

[Applepie_Svk]

 The main problem of endings is presence of refuse part:
1. BioWare was pretty clear since they announced EC that they have no plans in adding or recreating the original endings so I was in peace that they will probably just fix the original ending, fix plotholes which cause sloppy work and time limits which they were pushed into by EA. 
So in fact I was waiting that they will hold their artistic vision as they already showed 3 months ago and THAT´S IT!
But no they didn´t, they must kick to nest again, I am surprised that they are surprised from reaction of fanbase at all.
Refuse ending is not just insult to fans as already spelled symbolic middlefinger but it´s also breaking their own words.

2. They said that they were listening ... Yes they certainly were listening but from the other hand they where choosing what´s was fitting to their plans and even that from half. For example:
- Fans want to see their efforts in work (if you remember old DA:O was a great example in last stage of game)
 - 
- clarification and closure (that´s they certainly did, but it´s all is still in conflict by IT)
+
- adding conversation with Starkid (they did it, but it still doesn´t make a sense - check my signature) 
-  
- Plotholes fix (hmm, it´s my favourite explanation how ends Shepard´s squad back on Normandy ... meh) 
-  
- LI reunion (Nop - I am not taking a reunion as name label on the wall - scene)
-   
- Shepard acting like a Shepard and not like some vegetable (yes they did it but looks how it turns) 
 + 
- Refuse ending with possibile win scenario (Yes they added refuse ending, but it´s just doesn´t work - it is insult)
-  

In summary I would be fine with all 3 old options which gave us Starkid and EC just fix plotholes, but I am not ok with refuse ending because it´s simple insult to the fanbase.

3. Refuse ending - what are they realy following by this ... mockery ?
Hard to say, I was thinking that they are realy learn something from last lose with original ending, but they certainly don´t unless there is some other explanation.
- they realy planning something BiG
- or they are realy still blind with their artistic vision

4. I am not believing to any Twitter or Facebook even BSN statements which saying something about ending of ME that this is final desing, I know that sound pretty idealistic but from other side they were saying something very funny before release of EC - THIS IS OUR ARTISTIC VISION AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE IT - and yet they change it.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 29 juin 2012 - 03:25 .

[Bomma72]

Yigorse wrote...

I thought the refusal ending was pretty good actually. You do sort of save the galaxy, just 50k years later. Although you sort of screwed over everyone in the current cycle just because you wanted to shoot vent-boy, in the words of Tali'Zorah: "Still totally worth it".

The summaries for the other endings were good (some awesome art in there), I honestly feel this one was put in just to point out that the reason you weren't given a choice to fight the reapers conventionally was because there was utterly no hope of defeating them.

Try playing it out with the dialog and not shooting it is much better.

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Bomma72, 29 juin 2012 - 03:40 .

[Ender99]

Eh, they might as well have put a picture of Casey and Mac giving us the bird and got it over with. Would have been easier for them.

[Aylyese]

GdawgTuk wrote...

Codename_Code wrote...

- SO BE IT
Wow you are a reaper, Im glad I didnt pick any of your traps. Joker emergency evac, lets die free people ! lets give them hell !

Bioware - nope, just die. Some person in the next cycle will pick any of our gloriuos artistic options. Now get the hell out of my game.

Here is my question to you and everyone, not to mention one I struggle back and forth with when I think about it. If they used the reject ending for the basis of a new trilogy, would you buy it?

Im torn on the concept, because currently I have no further plans to support bioware.

Heck no.. Get invested in another game to be offered the freaking catalyst at the end again. The only endearing quality that would have is it hopefully not being an annoying child.