I thought so at first, but after reading responses from several moderators I think it was a resource issue. They just didn't have space on the DLC to supprt it. If you listen to the stargazer at the end, you learn that while our cycle lost, Liara's message helped that cycle defeat the Reapers. I don't think that supports the belief that an insult was intented.
"I reject your choices" seems like a personal insult
Débuté par
wryterra
, juin 27 2012 11:42
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#27
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:15
Oransel
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Aldyramon wrote...
even with everybody united you cannot defeat the reapers by conventional means.
No, you can.
#28
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:16
JeosDinas
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JohnTheJohn wrote...
Why is it an insult, it was obvious the Reapers weren't gonna be destroyed without the crucible.
Bingo. A refusal ending in which things turn out just through sheer struggle not only invalidates the narrative to that point but also makes the other choices unecessary. And while I think that games can have endings they deem "wrong" (and I don't even think that's the case here since it's pretty clear that Shepard's defiance and actions give the next cycle the time needed to beat the Reapers)...I don't think it should ever have a choice which is "correct".
Oransel wrote...
No, you can.
Okay then. Go wrack up as much EMS as you want. I'll wait. And then choose Refuse. Tell me what happens. Because you see, here's the thing. You can stand and say "You can." all you want but without proof (and you're not going to get it because the game goes out of its way to make it clear that conventional war is a delaying tatic at best), your words are extremely hollow.
Modifié par JeosDinas, 27 juin 2012 - 12:18 .
#29
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:16
Dean_the_Young
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Shepard has no ship, is half dead, and the only weapon she/he has is a pistol.Aris Ravenstar wrote...
Maybe because Shepard gives a speech about fighting and then just stands there twiddling his/her thumbs, watching everyone die?JohnTheJohn wrote...
Why is it an insult, it was obvious the Reapers weren't gonna be destroyed without the crucible.
If you weren't going to trigger the weapon ex machina, there's not much else for Shepard to do.
#30
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:16
Essla
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This option felt like an admittance that the other options were total baloney, but sorry, you're stuck with them.
#31
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:17
taomang
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Uhhhhhh
on the last outrage people have been whining how their Shepard would reject the Catalyst or shoot him in the face.
BW gave us that option.
We interpret it as an insult because they gave us what we wanted? Really?
on the last outrage people have been whining how their Shepard would reject the Catalyst or shoot him in the face.
BW gave us that option.
We interpret it as an insult because they gave us what we wanted? Really?
#32
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:18
wryterra
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Aldyramon wrote...
I guess some people cant be pleased. There were many complaints, why do I have to choose! Why can I not just let the battle play out. Why can I not argue with the Cytalyst. Now you can do all that and some people talk about how this is an insult to the fans...
The rejection Ending it great. Winning against the Reapers was impossible, the even said it multiple time in the game. It always came down to a desperate attempt to get the crucible working, while all your forces distract the Reapers. If you choose the Rejection Ending, Shepard stands his ground and refuses to accept the choice, preferring to die trying instead of giving in to the Catalyst. So you die and the cycle continues, which is expected. You made your point and through Liara's Black Box, the next Cycle defeats the Reapers.
This is what many people wanted!! Just see how the Battle turn out and Biowares answer is just the honest hard truth, even with everybody united you cannot defeat the reapers by conventional means.
I have no problem with the fact that refusing to fight might mean the Reapers win. If you look my complaint is that it is done dismissively, briefly and possibly sloppily without the attention given to the other endings. Even without the option for a conventional victory (though I don't believe that's as impossible, in-unvierse, as people think), even if it's inevitable defeat it didn't have to be a brief 'SO BE IT'. All dead now. No you don't get an extended ending, you just get this one scene.
As I said, they wanted to stick to their integrity? Do it. Don't offer the choice for no-compromise. Don't offer us a choice that is just a dismissive half-done ending just to make a point.
#33
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:18
Ieldra
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Crossposted from another thread:
Ieldra2 wrote...
The "reject" ending as a Reaper Win ending that still carries some hope was proposed by several fans, myself included. I believe Bioware took that proposal up and it was not added out of spite.
That you get it not only through dialogue, but also by shooting the Catalyst, is a typical example of a "non-standard game over". I approve. There are things which are stupid to shoot. Reminds me of my old tabletop RPG rule "I'll do my best to keep player characters alive unless they do something incredibly stupid". Shooting the Catalyst is right up there with sleeping with Morinth.
Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juin 2012 - 12:19 .
#34
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:19
JeosDinas
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taomang wrote...
Uhhhhhh
on the last outrage people have been whining how their Shepard would reject the Catalyst or shoot him in the face.
BW gave us that option.
We interpret it as an insult because they gave us what we wanted? Really?
Apparently, they thought shooting the god like AI construct in the head would somehow hurt more than its feelings.
#35
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:19
wryterra
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taomang wrote...
Uhhhhhh
on the last outrage people have been whining how their Shepard would reject the Catalyst or shoot him in the face.
BW gave us that option.
We interpret it as an insult because they gave us what we wanted? Really?
You can give someone 'what they asked for' in a way that makes it an insult you know. So yes, really.
#36
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:19
wryterra
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JeosDinas wrote...
taomang wrote...
Uhhhhhh
on the last outrage people have been whining how their Shepard would reject the Catalyst or shoot him in the face.
BW gave us that option.
We interpret it as an insult because they gave us what we wanted? Really?
Apparently, they thought shooting the god like AI construct in the head would somehow hurt more than its feelings.
This has nothing to do with shooting the AI. This has to do with the fourth option, when Shepard refuses to activate the catalyst and chooses to fight for conventional victory instead.
#37
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:21
the slynx
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wryterra wrote...
It's like Casey and Mac specifically telling those of us who believed Shepard would stand up to the Starchild, as she stood up to every enemy before, Saren, TIM, Sovreign, Harbinger and tell them 'NO!' that they're angry we didn't like their ending.
Starchild's angry 'SO BE IT!' comes across as the writers' anger that we found their ending insufficient.
I interpet it along these lines, too.
What really bothers me about it is that in their conception of repudiation, that's it. Shepard doesn't follow that up with any of the resourcefulness or resolve we've seen throughout the series. Shepard says no, then just sort of... retreats to watch what happens. It's as if there was an effort put in to turn it from solving the problem of why Shepard was weak in the final scenes to the inverse: repudiation makes Shepard weaker, even more passive. Shepard says no, and then just gives up. If this is how they interpreted that decision, they shouldn't have included it at all, because it's such a critical misunderstanding of the initial impulse that guided those fan endings and discussions.
#38
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:21
Spartan556
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While a longer cutscene would have been nice. I loved the reject ending. Well, more accurately I loved the fact that it was an option I could choose. Having that option made it my choice whether or not to use the crucible, not the catakids.
However, it's been consistently presented throughout the ME series that we can't stand up to the Reapers through conventional warfare. The battle with Sovereign alone proved that, and Adm. Hackett explicitly acknowledges that we can't beat them in ME 3. The complete destruction of galactic civilization is what I expected from the reject choice, and its exactly what I got.
Also, the planet with Liara's capsule has different terrain from the Normandy-crash planet, there's no reason to believe they are the same planet.
However, it's been consistently presented throughout the ME series that we can't stand up to the Reapers through conventional warfare. The battle with Sovereign alone proved that, and Adm. Hackett explicitly acknowledges that we can't beat them in ME 3. The complete destruction of galactic civilization is what I expected from the reject choice, and its exactly what I got.
Also, the planet with Liara's capsule has different terrain from the Normandy-crash planet, there's no reason to believe they are the same planet.
#39
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:25
wryterra
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For everyone saying it's been said over and over again that we can't beat them conventionally, Hackett even said so, etc...
This is a work of fiction. If synthesis is an acceptable outcome then whether or not we can win conventionally is only down to the ability of the writers to detail a scenario in which a victory is credible in the universe.
Talking about this on skype I pulled this off the top of my head:
Shepard reports to the Allied forces about Cerberus' indoctrination and reaper-control research
With TIM dead, the Allies raid Cerberus facilities, take the research, work on a way to interfere with the control signals
A back-channel to interfere with Reaper defenses, they're still huge armoured ships but more vulnerable to conventional weaponry
Meanwhile we also discover Cerberus has been developing weapons capable of breaching Sovreign-class ships based on data they've stolen from the council, gathered from the collectors, etc, etc
And whilst the allied fleets are beaten back at first, a secret research project is established which develops anti-reaper weapons and technology, turning the tides if you have high enough EMS
Perfect? No. But give me several weeks and a team of professional writers to refine it and it'll get better.
And that's only one possible route the epilogue could have taken. There are other ways a surprise conventional victory could be achieved.
This is a work of fiction. If synthesis is an acceptable outcome then whether or not we can win conventionally is only down to the ability of the writers to detail a scenario in which a victory is credible in the universe.
Talking about this on skype I pulled this off the top of my head:
Shepard reports to the Allied forces about Cerberus' indoctrination and reaper-control research
With TIM dead, the Allies raid Cerberus facilities, take the research, work on a way to interfere with the control signals
A back-channel to interfere with Reaper defenses, they're still huge armoured ships but more vulnerable to conventional weaponry
Meanwhile we also discover Cerberus has been developing weapons capable of breaching Sovreign-class ships based on data they've stolen from the council, gathered from the collectors, etc, etc
And whilst the allied fleets are beaten back at first, a secret research project is established which develops anti-reaper weapons and technology, turning the tides if you have high enough EMS
Perfect? No. But give me several weeks and a team of professional writers to refine it and it'll get better.
And that's only one possible route the epilogue could have taken. There are other ways a surprise conventional victory could be achieved.
#40
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:27
Clayless
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Why are you surprised that the universe stuck to the lore? In fact I was actually quite impressed by Shepard's big (but rather lonely) speech in the reject ending, and the fact that they could ask pretty much everything that the "rejecters" wanted.
It's not as long as the other scenes but, more or less, that's because it's just an unconventional game over. You spend 3 games trying to stop the Reapers then at the last second you choose failure, anything longer would just be all your squaddies dying horribly/getting indoctrinated, which I have to admit actually sounds quite cool.
It's not as long as the other scenes but, more or less, that's because it's just an unconventional game over. You spend 3 games trying to stop the Reapers then at the last second you choose failure, anything longer would just be all your squaddies dying horribly/getting indoctrinated, which I have to admit actually sounds quite cool.
#41
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:27
Aldyramon
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wryterra wrote...
Aldyramon wrote...
I guess some people cant be pleased. There were many complaints, why do I have to choose! Why can I not just let the battle play out. Why can I not argue with the Cytalyst. Now you can do all that and some people talk about how this is an insult to the fans...
The rejection Ending it great. Winning against the Reapers was impossible, the even said it multiple time in the game. It always came down to a desperate attempt to get the crucible working, while all your forces distract the Reapers. If you choose the Rejection Ending, Shepard stands his ground and refuses to accept the choice, preferring to die trying instead of giving in to the Catalyst. So you die and the cycle continues, which is expected. You made your point and through Liara's Black Box, the next Cycle defeats the Reapers.
This is what many people wanted!! Just see how the Battle turn out and Biowares answer is just the honest hard truth, even with everybody united you cannot defeat the reapers by conventional means.
I have no problem with the fact that refusing to fight might mean the Reapers win. If you look my complaint is that it is done dismissively, briefly and possibly sloppily without the attention given to the other endings. Even without the option for a conventional victory (though I don't believe that's as impossible, in-unvierse, as people think), even if it's inevitable defeat it didn't have to be a brief 'SO BE IT'. All dead now. No you don't get an extended ending, you just get this one scene.
As I said, they wanted to stick to their integrity? Do it. Don't offer the choice for no-compromise. Don't offer us a choice that is just a dismissive half-done ending just to make a point.
This is not half done. They even changed the Stargazer scene to fit with the ending. Sure they could have fleshed out everything more, even with the other endings, they could easily make 1h cutscences and stuff, but things like this come down to resources and time available. To say it is an insult that Bioware addressed one of the big criticism they got for the ending is just stupid.
#42
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:29
JA Shepard
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If standing there before resulted in a critical mission failure message saying the crucible is destroyed, this is the same thing just expanded to show the consequences of not firing the crucible. Considering that the entire game is about a hail-mary to build the only weapon that could win the war, it's the logical outcome in the game that failure or refusal to use the superweapon would result in everyone dying.
Shepard refuses, the fleet has to fight it out conventionally and, predictably, gets demolished. Not seeing the problem.
Shepard refuses, the fleet has to fight it out conventionally and, predictably, gets demolished. Not seeing the problem.
#43
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:29
wryterra
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Our_Last_Scene wrote...
Why are you surprised that the universe stuck to the lore? In fact I was actually quite impressed by Shepard's big (but rather lonely) speech in the reject ending, and the fact that they could ask pretty much everything that the "rejecters" wanted.
It's not as long as the other scenes but, more or less, that's because it's just an unconventional game over. You spend 3 games trying to stop the Reapers then at the last second you choose failure, anything longer would just be all your squaddies dying horribly/getting indoctrinated, which I have to admit actually sounds quite cool.
Yes it does and would at least give it some parity with the other endings.
I don't have a problem with losing. I don't have a problem with the next cycle being the one to win. I am not arguing that I specifically want a chance to win a conventional fight. That would be interesting, if it could be done well, but it's not what I'm fighting for.
I am arguing that if they're going to give us the reject choice they do it better than this, in a way that doesn't strike me personally as insultingly dismissive.
#44
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:30
Essla
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This option doesn't feel like a concession so much as salt in the wound. It's emphasizing the fact that we can only win on the Catalyst's terms. So the Catalyst/Reapers win no matter what.
#45
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:33
ThatDancingTurian
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Considering how stupid the Crucible plot is anyway, I would buy just about anything. Shepard should have been able to interface with an omnitool or something and find out what the -actual- options were without Starbrat's guidance. The starchild didn't even make the Crucible in the first place.Dean_the_Young wrote...
Shepard has no ship, is half dead, and the only weapon she/he has is a pistol.Aris Ravenstar wrote...
Maybe because Shepard gives a speech about fighting and then just stands there twiddling his/her thumbs, watching everyone die?JohnTheJohn wrote...
Why is it an insult, it was obvious the Reapers weren't gonna be destroyed without the crucible.
If you weren't going to trigger the weapon ex machina, there's not much else for Shepard to do.
#46
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:33
Clayless
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wryterra wrote...
I am arguing that if they're going to give us the reject choice they do it better than this, in a way that doesn't strike me personally as insultingly dismissive.
So this entire thread is just about a dislike on Bioware adding in quite a lot of new dialogue options to give a lot of the complainers the choice to do something they really wanted?
Oh, how boring.
#47
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:33
Hakkari
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I'm pretty sure that if the reject choice made it possible to win against the reapers, people would be upset cause the reapers got nerfed to the ground.
I think that the rejection ending could have been handled better, but I like that they added it. If it had been included in the original game, I doubt it would have seemed as petty as it did. Unfortunately, it just came off as extremely bitter because of the timing and how short the scene is.
I wish that Shepard had gone after the kid or at least kept shooting him in the back of the head. That would have been nice, lol. The only part I dislike about the ending (other than everyone dying, but that's to be expected) is how Shepard sits there staring after Starkid like he just kicked her puppy or something. But whatever, it was nice of them to add it in.
I think that the rejection ending could have been handled better, but I like that they added it. If it had been included in the original game, I doubt it would have seemed as petty as it did. Unfortunately, it just came off as extremely bitter because of the timing and how short the scene is.
I wish that Shepard had gone after the kid or at least kept shooting him in the back of the head. That would have been nice, lol. The only part I dislike about the ending (other than everyone dying, but that's to be expected) is how Shepard sits there staring after Starkid like he just kicked her puppy or something. But whatever, it was nice of them to add it in.
#48
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:34
AxeloftheKey
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I like that the offer was chosen.
I even don't mind that EMS can't save you. Granted, I think it would be a great thing to show, but fine.
The fade to black killed me. Honestly? I expected my fleets fighting, my squad going up against a Reaper. A short 30-second cutscene of the Normandy picking up Shepard, and then ramming a Reaper would've been great. Or watching Liara set her time capsule up, since I've never gotten that scene in the game (and only heard about it online) because I didn't bother with most of the Liara friendship, because I don't care.
I just felt like they took the fan's basic idea and didn't elaborate on it. It partially feels like a bit of "harumph" at the players, being like "Yeah, you can make this choice, but WE DON'T LIKE IT." Which is contrary to how they're supposed to treat Commander Shepard. I dunno. I just wanted more content from it.
I even don't mind that EMS can't save you. Granted, I think it would be a great thing to show, but fine.
The fade to black killed me. Honestly? I expected my fleets fighting, my squad going up against a Reaper. A short 30-second cutscene of the Normandy picking up Shepard, and then ramming a Reaper would've been great. Or watching Liara set her time capsule up, since I've never gotten that scene in the game (and only heard about it online) because I didn't bother with most of the Liara friendship, because I don't care.
I just felt like they took the fan's basic idea and didn't elaborate on it. It partially feels like a bit of "harumph" at the players, being like "Yeah, you can make this choice, but WE DON'T LIKE IT." Which is contrary to how they're supposed to treat Commander Shepard. I dunno. I just wanted more content from it.
Modifié par AxeloftheKey, 27 juin 2012 - 12:36 .
#49
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:35
wryterra
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Our_Last_Scene wrote...
wryterra wrote...
I am arguing that if they're going to give us the reject choice they do it better than this, in a way that doesn't strike me personally as insultingly dismissive.
So this entire thread is just about a dislike on Bioware adding in quite a lot of new dialogue options to give a lot of the complainers the choice to do something they really wanted?
Oh, how boring.
Well let's review, the thread title is "I reject your choices" seems like a personal insult.
It's called that because, to me, it feels like a personal insult. My view. My reaction to their art. You can disagree with me if you like but I've seen nothing that changes my reaction. If you wanted a thread based on more than my reaction to BioWare's rendition of the reject ending, you should look elsewhere because I never claimed this was anything else.
#50
Posté 27 juin 2012 - 12:35
Stevebo
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Oransel wrote...
JohnTheJohn wrote...
Why is it an insult, it was obvious the Reapers weren't gonna be destroyed without the crucible.
No, it was not.
It actually was, how many times do they have to tell you during the game that the reapers could not be beaten conventionally until you start to believe it? And then they throw this giant plot device right in your face....
Personal insult? I think some of you need to really get over yourselves.
