402 réponses à ce sujet

[wryterra]

Stevebo wrote...

Oransel wrote...

JohnTheJohn wrote...

Why is it an insult, it was obvious the Reapers weren't gonna be destroyed without the crucible.

No, it was not.

It actually was, how many times do they have to tell you during the game that the reapers could not be beaten conventionally until you start to believe it?  And then they throw this giant plot device right in your face....

Personal insult?  I think some of you need to really get over yourselves.

Because characters believe it doesn't make it true, by the way. Most characters don't think Reapers exist at first. You're told over and over that your claims are absurd. They're still true, though. 

[Seasiderben]

RealDestroyerXD wrote...

Hear, hear! Thats exactly what I thought.

Refusal could al least had additional cutscenes where you can see how they failed or won with high sacrifice. But instead they made it either an easter egg or a big middle finger from bioware for all those who wanted conventional win.

Well at least my second best ending destroy gets rid of Reapers and Starchild. And the newest leak, which I found in the files too, gives me hope.

Etereoooo wrote...

1.9 GB....where the **** did they put them?

Data-mining the files say that the movies alone are 1.3 GB. They even put in every language (like they did with every other dlc). And  some multiplayer files too ("SFXModsMP3_AssaultRifle.pcc" for example).

If yo uwatch that ending to the actual end, the Star Gazer scene is different, and it clearly states that shepards cycle failed but the next cycle using the information from Shepards cycle succeeded in defeating the reapers.

[nitefyre410]

The whole Refusal Ending felt like a complete "**** you" to the those who rejected the whole Catalyst idea in the first place. It just reeks of " Oh don't like our Artistic Vision...the you fail. See there we are Bioware you will do as we say." Its like Bioware never entertained the possibility of winning without the Crucible.

The whole thing just came off as childish.. because EMS should have played a role but its over now. There is no need going over the same points over and over and over. Mass Effect Trilogy is done and this is how it ends. Just time to accept it and move on.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 27 juin 2012 - 12:41 .

[Stevebo]

wryterra wrote...

Stevebo wrote...

Oransel wrote...

JohnTheJohn wrote...

Why is it an insult, it was obvious the Reapers weren't gonna be destroyed without the crucible.

No, it was not.

It actually was, how many times do they have to tell you during the game that the reapers could not be beaten conventionally until you start to believe it?  And then they throw this giant plot device right in your face....

Personal insult?  I think some of you need to really get over yourselves.

Because characters believe it doesn't make it true, by the way. Most characters don't think Reapers exist at first. You're told over and over that your claims are absurd. They're still true, though. 

Yes, but even Shepard knows it cannot be won conventionally due to the fact that no one took him/her seriously.  They weren't ready.  However, in the refusal ending it is stated that with the info on Liara's time capsule they were able to defeat the reapers.

[taomang]

wryterra wrote...

taomang wrote...

Uhhhhhh

on the last outrage people have been whining how their Shepard would reject the Catalyst or shoot him in the face.
BW gave us that option.
We interpret it as an insult because they gave us what we wanted? Really?

You can give someone 'what they asked for' in a way that makes it an insult you know. So yes, really. 

I think you're looking way too much into it.
Even if they did, we got what we wanted according to the feedback that was given. If you feel insulted there is a very simple solution to the problem - stop buying their products. I don't understand how so many people have a problem letting go. It was pretty obvious that things aren't gonna get much better from the first set of endings. This is as good as it's gonna get. We have one simple choice: buy the next DLC or not buy the next DLC.

SO BE IT!

[Fireblader70]

wryterra wrote...

Stevebo wrote...

Oransel wrote...

JohnTheJohn wrote...

Why is it an insult, it was obvious the Reapers weren't gonna be destroyed without the crucible.

No, it was not.

It actually was, how many times do they have to tell you during the game that the reapers could not be beaten conventionally until you start to believe it?  And then they throw this giant plot device right in your face....

Personal insult?  I think some of you need to really get over yourselves.

Because characters believe it doesn't make it true, by the way. Most characters don't think Reapers exist at first. You're told over and over that your claims are absurd. They're still true, though. 

Well, the existence of the refusal ending pretty much ends all debate on this, anyway. People may not like it, but it proves that this cycle could not beat the Reapers conventionally. End of.

[Mars Nova]

Yeah, I felt a surge of hope when I saw the "reject" option and I was like, "Yeah, here it is, I'm a badass, I'm gonna tell Starchild where to shove it and then we can watch together as the Reapers are blown to hell." 

Nope.

I thought maybe my EMS was too low, so I came on here only to find out your EMS doesn't matter.

Seriously, Bioware what would it have hurt to give us the option to reject the Catalyst and still defeat the Reapers conventionally?

[Keiran Solaris]

I really don't read the refusal as an insult.

Plenty of us asked/demanded the option to reject starchild. They gave us that option.
We made the choice and now we live with the consequences of that choice. Choosing to refuse to play that little twerps game and instead die free is fine by me. Would have been cool if the EMS score detailed how awesome the fight with the reapers was, would have been nice to have cutscenes showing the reapers slowly wiping out the galaxy (with varying degrees of success based on EMS), and would have been nice to see Shep pick up his rifle and head back into the fight but I'm ok with where it went. The refusal ending actually does have the classic sci fi feeling that Casey and Mac claimed they wanted from the get go.

Is EC perfect? No way. Should refusal have been in the game from day 1? Hell yes.

I do think that if refusal had been included from the beginning people wouldn't read it as an insult but with all the lying/stonewalling from Bioware many of us are jaded on them and willing to think the worst. Even if you read refusal as an insult would you prefer that the option was absent? That Shep just goes "Well that sounds reasonable!" and then jumps in the giant synthesis hole?

Modifié par Keiran Solaris, 27 juin 2012 - 01:03 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

daigakuinsei wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

JohnTheJohn wrote...

Why is it an insult, it was obvious the Reapers weren't gonna be destroyed without the crucible.

Maybe because Shepard gives a speech about fighting and then just stands there twiddling his/her thumbs, watching everyone die?

You're bleeding to death and only have an old pistol, what else are you going to do?  

Refusal was very well done.

Besides, we see Shepard standing there for, what, all of about 20 seconds? I think we can safely assume that, if Shepard's injuries are survivable, (s)he'll try to get back to the action ASAP.

[Spartan556]

wryterra wrote...

Perfect? No. But give me several weeks and a team of professional writers to refine it and it'll get better.

 

Actually that would produce space magic, evidently. 

Seriously though, the final battle against the Reapers is an all-in scenario. There is no retreating and spending days/weeks/months on research and development. Any winning scenario has to be found on the battlefield, and that is highly unlikely. Even if your starting military force was strong enough to take on the Reapers in a conventional fight, you've been sacrificing ships for hours to both protect the crucible and land ground forces in london. In order to win, you would need to fight the battle differently from the beginning, or else introduce a game-changer so big that it would have to be a bigger deus ex machina than the one we already got.

I'm not saying the writer couldn't do it. I'm just saying I couldn't take it seriously if they did. The no-win battle is consistent with the game's lore.

[wryterra]

Keiran Solaris wrote...

Even if you read refusal as an insult would you prefer that the option was absent? That Shep just goes "Well that sounds reasonable!" and then jumps in the giant synthesis hole?

This is pretty significant, actually. Yes, I would prefer it was absent. Considering that during the development of the EC they said that there would be no new options. I think this is a new option. Especially considering it turns up as a dialogue option after the original three endings have been explained. So again what they say and what they do doesn't fit. If they hadn't added a bad fourth option I'd be a lot happier about the three we got. 

[Sleepdribble]

wryterra wrote...

Directly responding to players who wanted Shepard to reject the false-choice offered by the Starchild, now you can do just that. I was thrilled to see it.

When the option starts and Shepard straightens up, speaks confidently, rejects the Starchild, vows to fight to a conventional victory or to die free I thought 'hell yeah, this is how it should end'. 

And then, well... 

There's an old RPG saying 'rocks fall, everyone dies'. It's used to describe that moment when the GM (guy running the game and telling the story) gets frustrated with his players and just kills them all off to get it over with. That's how it felt. Rocks fell and everyone died. You just die. Like that.

It's the shortest ending with the least effort put into it. It's also ... well, kind of flawed. So we see Liara's time-capsule burried deep under the planet Joker landed the Normandy on after withdrawing from the Catalyst explosion. Just one problem, reject the Catalyst's choices and there was no explosion. So why did the Normandy end up there? 

It's like Casey and Mac specifically telling those of us who believed Shepard would stand up to the Starchild, as she stood up to every enemy before, Saren, TIM, Sovreign, Harbinger and tell them 'NO!' that they're angry we didn't like their ending. 

Starchild's angry 'SO BE IT!' comes across as the writers' anger that we found their ending insufficient. 

To put it bluntly: If this were in here to satisfy players then the ending would be based on EMS. Low EMS and you're wiped out by the Reapers without hope. High enough, though and you win your conventional victory. And either way you'd get more than Liara's time capsule in a cave there's no logical reason for it to be in saying 'it didn't work, we died, hope you guys do better'. 

Honestly, this is my problem with the EC. It actually makes the other three endings endings I can accept, if not truly like. The closure slides I like. I'd have walked away disappointed but no longer angry. Now, though, I just feel like Casey and Mac have offered me a 1.9GB insult trashing my belief in Shepard as a character. 

Thanks, guys. 

You wonder if you should  feel insulted by the intent behind the 'reject' option? Perhaps you need some distance here. You're unintentionally making yourself sound like a victim. Mass Effect is about Shepard, and how his actions effect the Mass Effect universe. It's not about you personally.

Shepard, at the end of his quest to save the galaxy, finally comes face to face with the Reaper Puppeteer. He can either seize the chance to save the universe in one of the three ways he's presented with, or he can choose the path of inaction, rejection and misplaced frustration. In all four choices, he reaps what he sows.

This is exactly what they mean when they say your decisions should mean something in this game. You took a gamble with your Shepard, and the Mass Effect world showed you what happened as a result of that gamble in a legitimate, 'lore abiding' way. If you felt it didn't get equal treatment compared to the other endings, I should point out that many things aren't treated equally in the game - romances, character development, and so on.

And while I do think that option was put there partially for the lulz, I also think it's a very valid choice for some Shepards (if you're into role-playing, as you seem to be). And the long term outcome of rejecting the starchild is not so bad, is it?

Great question, by the way.

Modifié par Sleepdribble, 27 juin 2012 - 01:49 .

[Keiran Solaris]

wryterra wrote...

Keiran Solaris wrote...

Even if you read refusal as an insult would you prefer that the option was absent? That Shep just goes "Well that sounds reasonable!" and then jumps in the giant synthesis hole?

This is pretty significant, actually. Yes, I would prefer it was absent. Considering that during the development of the EC they said that there would be no new options. I think this is a new option. Especially considering it turns up as a dialogue option after the original three endings have been explained. So again what they say and what they do doesn't fit. If they hadn't added a bad fourth option I'd be a lot happier about the three we got. 

It should be pretty obvious by now that what the Bioware PR machine says and what actually happens differ fairly significantly. I think they are definitely toeing a line (more likely crossing it) when they say "No new endings, just clarification". There are some obviously places where they have backpedaled and retconed things (relays rebuilt, no more stranded on a deserted planet, etc). They are trying to save face and pretend that this was always their original intent. Reminds me a bit too much of Lucas' BS statement that Greedo always shot first and we are seeing something wrong when we watch original Episode 4.

As to leaving out the "bad fourth option" I guess I view that the same as with the original endings, pick the one you like and ignore the others. So long as there is one option that you like (or at least can watch without violently getting ill) then who cares about the others? Personally I hate synthesis, hate it with a passion. It makes no sense and it just irritates me to watch it. Doesn't matter though because in my play through Shep rejected it for the morally distateful pile of trash it was.

Personally I will never complain with more options for players, just because I don't want to choose that ending for my playthrough doesn't mean I begrudge other people from choosing it. Nor do I feel attacked because other people like it. As long as I get my ending I don't care what other people get. I didn't want a happy ending with Hacket awarding me a segway and the Krogan baking me a cake but if they had included that for the people who wanted that I'd be fine with it. I always expected Shep to die (also expected the destruction of the relays) so those things didn't bother me in the least. I understand some people didn't like that and were disapointed they didn't get to win and go home and live in the universe they save and have babies with their LI.  Should there have been a happy ending? I don't know but I wouldn't have been bothered in the least by it's inclusion. Of course all this assumes that Bioware doesn't do a ME4 and just take their favorite ending and cannonize it. If that happend then I'd be greatly offended.

[Reth Shepherd]

taomang wrote...

wryterra wrote...

taomang wrote...

Uhhhhhh

on the last outrage people have been whining how their Shepard would reject the Catalyst or shoot him in the face.
BW gave us that option.
We interpret it as an insult because they gave us what we wanted? Really?

You can give someone 'what they asked for' in a way that makes it an insult you know. So yes, really. 

I think you're looking way too much into it.
Even if they did, we got what we wanted according to the feedback that was given. If you feel insulted there is a very simple solution to the problem - stop buying their products. I don't understand how so many people have a problem letting go. It was pretty obvious that things aren't gonna get much better from the first set of endings. This is as good as it's gonna get. We have one simple choice: buy the next DLC or not buy the next DLC.

SO BE IT!

I laughed out loud, I really did. (Youtubed every ending I was interested in. Which wasn't many.) F*** you, too, guys. Oh, and don't worry, Toamang, they won't be seeing any more of my money until and if they ever get away from EA. Today is pretty much saying my goodbyes and starting the refund process (bought a digital copy, so I anticipate several months of being on the phone with EA). It was a heck of a fight, guys. Pity we lost.

[Iozeph]

JA Shepard wrote...

If standing there before resulted in a critical mission failure message saying the crucible is destroyed, this is the same thing just expanded to show the consequences of not firing the crucible. Considering that the entire game is about a hail-mary to build the only weapon that could win the war, it's the logical outcome in the game that failure or refusal to use the superweapon would result in everyone dying.

Shepard refuses, the fleet has to fight it out conventionally and, predictably, gets demolished. Not seeing the problem.

Save that if it's an entire game -no- an entire three game series built around nothing more than a thrice-damned fait accompli- then why bother playing? Truly. It isn't a matter of the journey being worth it or more important than the ending. They've negated the journey!

Screw you, Bioware. Screw you and your dubious artistic vision for wasting my time.

Charlatans.

Modifié par Iozeph, 27 juin 2012 - 03:42 .

[Anuvis13]

TC, I was in a similar situation. I got extremely excited when I saw I could refuse the Starchild. I was thinking "Wow they actually listened" and then... the middle finger. It was the perfect moment for the united galaxy to beat the Reapers in a straight fight against the odds if you had enough EMS. But nope. BW simply cannot give the fans what they asked for.

[Persephone]

"I reject your choices" leads to the next cycle's ultimate victory, thanks to Shepard, Liara and everybody else. To me that was an incredible legacy. The Catalyst doesn't get to manipulate Shep and his entire scheme comes crashing down. I loved it. I loved the way Jennifer Hale delivered those lines.

Be offended about not getting a "win against all odds solely on MY terms" all you like.

It's funny how the fanbase sees insults EVERYWHERE, even in an option given because MANY wanted it.... But are so generous when it comes to being rude, condescending and self-righteous themselves. Mind boggling hypocrisy, really.

[the slynx]

Sleepdribble wrote...

Shepard, at the end of his quest to save the galaxy, finally comes face to face with the Reaper Puppeteer. He can either seize the chance to save the universe in one of the three ways he's presented with, or he can choose the path of inaction, rejection and misplaced frustration. In all four choices, he reaps what he sows.

The problem with this is that several people in several threads have shown several ways that rejection doesn't have to be a path of inaction. The people who suggested this path largely did so because they were appalled at the way Shepard seemingly just caved in during those final moments, showing none of the resilience or resolve that the character showed throughout the series. Inaction and fan dismay at that was precisely the factor to which most rejection conceptions tried to provide alternatives. Very few of these fans argued for rejection, then just not doing anything more.

The array of possible follow-throughs offered to that refusal was dizzying. These range from things like flat-out conventional fighting along normal means to things like destroying the Citadel to remove the Reaper leader to attempting to sabotage the Citadel to creating FTL missiles with which to attack Reapers - and many more. There was no shortage of options that involved rejecting the Reapers and the Star Kids' potentially unreliable choices and still doing something after that point. The majority of the ones I read in this forum were significantly more interesting, creative, balanced and insightful than what made it into the Extended Cut. Many of them paid great detail to the lore and tenor of the game and none tried to make refusal an easy win that eroded the other choices.

The one version of rejection BioWare chose to employ was the one that made it seem most hopeless and pointless. That's the insult: it's a dismissal of the criticisms and of fan-made endings that many believed were better than the ones included in the actual game. The inclusion of such a pessimistic refusal option, weighed against the incredibly optimistic - I'd say jarringly idealistic - endings endowed by things like rewriting organics or destroying all of the Geth, makes it seem like the writers really wanted to reject fans who had conceived of a different finale. It's very much as if they are saying that people who didn't like the choices presented are just foolish. That may not have been how they intended, but it certainly plays out that way.

[CaliGuy033]

daigakuinsei wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

JohnTheJohn wrote...

Why is it an insult, it was obvious the Reapers weren't gonna be destroyed without the crucible.

Maybe because Shepard gives a speech about fighting and then just stands there twiddling his/her thumbs, watching everyone die?

You're bleeding to death and only have an old pistol, what else are you going to do?  

Refusal was very well done.

...a very well done middle finger to shortsighted fans.  And the best part is, those fans still don't even get it.

[Dragoonlordz]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

daigakuinsei wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

JohnTheJohn wrote...

Why is it an insult, it was obvious the Reapers weren't gonna be destroyed without the crucible.

Maybe because Shepard gives a speech about fighting and then just stands there twiddling his/her thumbs, watching everyone die?

You're bleeding to death and only have an old pistol, what else are you going to do?  

Refusal was very well done.

...a very well done middle finger to shortsighted fans.  And the best part is, those fans still don't even get it.

Your just being kind of melodramatic. It was not a middle finger, people asked to dispute the AI, they gave them that option. The whole game says you cannot defeat them by conventional means whether you like that, accept that or not. If you then won by conventional means half the game is moot because it removes the point in the crucible in the first place. People would just need to blow up the AI core in the citadel to have same effect which is never something they will do with a DLC aka half the story redundant through changing in DLC. So just not going to happen, it also removes the other choices and you get a linear one ending title because everyone would ust pick the argue and win one.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 27 juin 2012 - 05:43 .

[Torrible]

Persephone wrote...

It's funny how the fanbase sees insults EVERYWHERE, even in an option given because MANY wanted it.... But are so generous when it comes to being rude, condescending and self-righteous themselves. Mind boggling hypocrisy, really.

It's one thing to be easily offended. Some people really thought that Bioware is actively out to insult its fanbase. Mind boggling, yes.

Modifié par Torrible, 27 juin 2012 - 05:39 .

[FatalX7.0]

MisterJB wrote...

"It's like Casey and Mac specifically telling those of us who believed Shepard would stand up to the Starchild, as she stood up to every enemy before, Saren, TIM, Sovreign, Harbinger and tell them 'NO!' that they're angry we didn't like their ending."


I think it is simply trying to tell you that it is illogical to not use the device you poured so many resources into which it is.
I think it was gracious of them to give people the choice of sticking to their morals. The consequences are, of course, to be expected.

How is it illogical?

You finally find out how it works, what the device does is not to your liking. Slavery that could possibilty fail, rewriting everyone in the galaxy, or possibly destroying a lot of the lives you spent the time to save.

There can be downsides with any of the choices. You may not like the downsides, so you don't take those choices. Simple as that.

[ArthurVon]

Bioware likes to lose customers.

[Bill Casey]

The Reject ending is phenomenal...
The only thing it needed was a montage of the galaxy standing together and going down fighting like its The Silmarillion or 300...


I love it...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 27 juin 2012 - 05:52 .

[Mythx88]

JohnTheJohn wrote...

Why is it an insult, it was obvious the Reapers weren't gonna be destroyed without the crucible.

And why not?

Isn't it stupid that the Crucible isn't some practical reaper destroying weapan? Instead it's some space magic machine that is turned on in the stupidest possible ways. 

I mean you turn it on by SHOOTING A TUBE / JUMPING INTO A BEAM / VAPORIZING YOURSELF.

Then space magic takes care of the rest.

If you choose Refuse, then you should be able to fight the reapers conventionally with your fleets and destroy them with high EMS.