402 réponses à ce sujet

[httinks2006]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

spacefiddle wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

wryterra wrote...

I am arguing that if they're going to give us the reject choice they do it better than this, in a way that doesn't strike me personally as insultingly dismissive. 

Just to be clear, would you have preferred there to be no refuse option at all, to what was provided?

False choice.

You cannot be unaware of every issue brought up with the ending by now.  It is very telling that your first question is "well if it was that or nothing, would you really want nothing?" instead of addressing why a large number of people could interpret such a thing as a cheap shot.  Would you prefer I ignore you, or kick you in the nuts?  That's no kind of choice at all, and I'm pretty sure you know that.

It's not a false choice.  It's a direct question to help me understand the poster's position.  I am specifically asking him if he'd prefer the choice not be presented rather than what was given.

It IS shorter, but is it really dismissive?  If it was just to be a shot at the fanbase, wouldn't it have been better to just say "oh well you lose" and wrap it up there?

False logic.  "If we were going to insult you, wouldn't we have done a more efficient job of it?"  Again, sidestepping the issue of the content of the 4th ending and deflecting it to "huh? what? why would we do such a thing?"  But let me answer your question: yes, it is dismissive.  You sucker us in to thinking, holy crap, they've really pulled off something amazing here.... Harby is Godboi like the Indoc folks said he was!  Shep's rejecting the IM and Saren choices, and refusing to commit genocide on the Geth!  And then, you just pull the rug out.

Are you really proud of this?  Will you look back on this moment in your career, and think, you know, we really did something worthwhile there?

Your attempt to deflect this, and the entirety of the 4th choice ending, does not stand up to the slightest amount of logical scrutiny.  Just like the original endings.  So no; nothing has been achieved other than a very expensive slap delivered to people who actually cared about your company and your story.  Well done.

Well then.  At the same time I think people just see what they want to see.  Frankly your post was rude and pretentious, magnified by the fact that you demonstrated you actually didn't actually understand what I was asking and tried to be witty about it with "False <point>" to open your statements.  If you wish to be dismissive of me trying to talk with the fans (as a fan myself, since most posters here are quite understanding of the fact that I don't work on the Mass Effect team), you're free to not respond to my posts.

If you feel that this was an attempt by the Mass Effect team to flip you the bird, I do not feel there is anything I can say to you to convince you otherwise.

Even if the Bioware team attempted to give this choice as bone to the fans it came across as a slap to the face .

As I've stated in another thread on this matter if the EMS had affected whether or not you could have a winning possibility out of this CHOICE then Bioware would have been praised by many of us who hated the ending and still hate it .
For me personally it would have been my Shepard staying in character and letting how well I did in my choices and actions over the years determine my FATE.
It's like having a friend of yours beat the game for you because they don't believe you have the ability or skill to do it yourself its empty and why bother with how the ending plays out .
I will always be a rpg player always loved them always will . 
Though Refuse  so came over as.
You don't like our choices "flips middle finger " and saids SO BE IT we die no matter how well we did in the game or even if people broke down and played multiplayer which some hate just to have the chance that our Choice mattered .
You talk about seeing only what we want to see , thats what the Bioware team has been doing this entire time when they feign ignorance of why we did not  drop down on our knees when the original endings came out and bowed down to their greatness.
I loved their games until this horrid ending and I had similar complaints that some people had on DA2 but in my eyes on that title I saw the hero from the first and second possibly joining up in the third so I didnt go bonkers on them . ((some stuff was Lazy and took from what made the first one epic ))

As a side note all I told a friend of mine was that you could refuse the starkid or shoot him and he texted me with the same thing I said above about the slap to the face but he said FU from Bioware so others are seeing it as well

[mauro2222]

UWxMaserati wrote...

Nogthwai wrote...

The Reject Ending makes perfect sense. If a comventional victory was possible, the protheans would have ended the cycle and defeated the reapers anyway; asking for a coventional victory to be possible is against the canon of the ME Universe.

I am not so sure the Protheans can be compared to the current situation. It is pointed out the Protheans held the war for over 100 years mainly because they were so spread out and lacked the unity element. Javik points many many differences throughout the game. The Protheans really sounded like they fought the Reapers in a way not far off from guerrilla warfare.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying the currently cycle could beat the Reapers in a head to head war, they likely would get destroyed but I don't think the Protheans are overly compareable. They were praised throughout the 1st 2 games but really looked more flawed in the 3rd.

The protheans were caught by surprise, the original plan of coming throught the Citadel worked on that cycle.

Comparing the two is silly.

[flanny]

icynova wrote...

I for one loved the new "refuse" ending - Probably my favorite of the new ones.

being the best ME3 ending is hardly an achievement. ignoring the fact the original three are all the same.

I like the idea of the reject ending and was ready to forgive bioware when i realised it was an option but there is no doubting it is meant as an insult to those who questioned biowares orginal ending. The reject ending could have been brilliant it could have shown how your choses played out in one finale battle it could have been determined by your EMS. 

Instead we see no final battle, no explanation about what happens to Shepard (no way he'd just sit down and accept it) and his crew and a patronising person from the next cycle telling us we chose the wrong option.

[Reddof Nonnac]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

wryterra wrote...

I am arguing that if they're going to give us the reject choice they do it better than this, in a way that doesn't strike me personally as insultingly dismissive. 

Just to be clear, would you have preferred there to be no refuse option at all, to what was provided?


It IS shorter, but is it really dismissive?  If it was just to be a shot at the fanbase, wouldn't it have been better to just say "oh well you lose" and wrap it up there?

Instead we get a video showing Liara talking about our past experiences and even get a unique sequence with a Stargazer where Shepard's legacy lives on based on what the future cycle learned from all of his hard work.

In fact, even with the refuse ending, the galaxy is still ultimately able to break free of the Reapers and largely holds Shepard responsible for being able to do so.

True…and some very good points.

 Honestly though the way this ending situation has been handled by ME staff and upper management of BioWare coupled with statements that were made pre release that were proven to be at release to be true from ‘a certain point of view’ (to quote Star Wars) has left a very bitter taste in my mouth and plenty of mouths here. Because of that when presented with an option to look at something in a positive or negative light my first reaction now is to look at it in a negative light and it looks like there are many that feel the same way.  
Please understand I’m not directing this at you as you’ve done your best to engage us in honest and open discussion despite a lot of unjust venom and flame being thrown your way. I’m just trying to explain how I’m feeling and maybe how others are feeling about this.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

flanny wrote...
 and a patronising person from the next cycle telling us we chose the wrong option.

Umm, maybe something lost in translation, but for me it came pretty clear - next cycle is deeply grateful to us that "we fought a horrible war, so they dont have to".

[Shallyah]

If you feel insulted by the Reject ending you really need to grow up.

I find it's my favourite one, only after Destroy.

Yes, the cycle continues, but thanks to Shepard's actions, the Reapers are stopped in next Cycle, and even through the races of Shepard's cycle are harvested, you made your stand, and lived by your principles until the last moment, even when it meant your demise. It's about a thosuand better ending than, for example, Synthesis.

The Reapers have harvested thousands of races, 6 more or less don't change anything. It just takes balls to choose the Reject ending and see the bigger picture. Seriously, you all "insulted" people, I feel much more insulted by your lack of intelligence and I'm not making threads about it.

Modifié par Shallyah, 27 juin 2012 - 08:19 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Really seems to me a lot of people here who assume it was a lsant against them even though Bioware said it was not, is more about the state of the minds of the people who find it such in the first place. There are huge amounts of people on here saying they disliked the original endings, wanted same thing as everywone said over last few months about being able to reject the AI logic and they seem okay with it.  It is your state of mind thats the issue not what they did.

Probably difference is one side who like it were not as bitter and angry in the first place while the second were gong to see an insult the moment did not get everythign wanted. The very fact the most bitter and angry of you keep bringing up conventional win shows anything outside of that was never going to please you even though a lot of you asked merely to reject star child logic prior. You kept mentioning over past few months in the case of a lot of you saying wanted to reject his logic and now your bringing up win by conventional means. You moved the goal posts and talking about two different things now.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 27 juin 2012 - 08:21 .

[RiouHotaru]

Hawk227 wrote...

@ Allan Schumacher

The reason the Refuse choice feels like an insult is because it was implied in the Stargazer scene (and confirmed via Twitter) that the successful cycle just uses the Crucible. The subtext is telling us that the only way to win is to acquiesce to the Catalyst, and compromise our morals to win.

It also legitimizes the Catalyst in a way that is pretty repugnant. The vast majority of the audience never felt that the conflict was ever Organics vs. Synthetics, we felt that it was Everyone vs. the Reapers. More abstractly it was free will and self-determination vs. imposed dominance and control. In a sense it was Chaos vs. Order, but Order (as defined by the Reapers) was always the enemy, it was what we fought against. When the Catalyst showed up and told us that Order was really good, we balked. We said "Um... NO, it's not", but the final choices are geared not towards the Free-Will vs. Domination conflict that have been ingrained over 3 games, but rather the new (and, frankly, illegitimate) conflict of Organics vs. Synthetics. We can be naive and choose destroy, both Genociding our allies and "condemning life to inevitable doom-by-robot" or we can more or less accept the Catalyst's solution (Control) or we can find a new one that reeks of Eugenics (synthesis), because only by minimizing our differences can we find peace. But in all of this, the Catalyst as his conflict hijacks the story. With our dying act, we are asked to solve his imagined problem, rather being allowed to solve our own very real one, and we're told the only way to go about it is committing an atrocity. The new content only excacerbates this problem by doubling down on it. The new dialog essentially confirms that the Catalyst is insane by telling us that he Reaperized his creators against their will and believes Synthetics cannot understand Organics (just don't tell EDI that). So, we've learned that he's insane and that even though his biases have been contradicted by our own journey through the narrative, his way is still the only way. What happened to "We'll win this war and we won't compromise who we are to do it!"?.

By having the next cycle achieve success by simply using the Crucible, we are being told that we were too gutless to make the right choice. If only we had the stomach to commit genocide, or the Hubris to pick control, or the insanity to think that Synthetics and Organics can't get along simply because they are different, then we could have had that happy ending instead. If we think the Catalyst is insane and wrong, we lose. We are told we lost because we're weak, and the next cycle just stepped over our-naively principled corpse on the road to happiness and victory.

EDIT: To clarify, it isn't the Refuse ending on it's own that is the problem (I quite liked it), but rather the reveal that victory was achieved with the Crucible whose purpose we rejected. If the proceeding Cycle had won on their own terms because they had thousands of years to perfect the Cain (or whatever), then it would not have come off as a troll. More so, if the authors valued the refuse ending and valued the principle of telling a madman that we won't play along, I think they would have included a win scenario, even if it was insanely hard to acheive (8k+ EMS).

I think the problem here is (once again) people only looking at the endings as negatives, as solely bad or malicious outcomes.  Destroy ends the Reapers permanently (and the Catalyst), but comes at the cost of the Geth and EDI.  Control forces Shepard to stop being him/herself and basically become a 'god' of sorts, with some thinly veiled implications of governing the "many", either under a peaceful or forceful banner.  Synthesis essentially ends the conflict by allowing both sides to be equally matched in terms of the qualities.  (Organics gain the advantages of synthetics, while synthetics gain the awareness and understanding that only organics have).  How this is even remotely like Eugenics when it make EVERYONE equal is a little beyond me.

Also, the fact that the next Cycle still uses the Crucible honestly shouldn't have come as any surprise.  Also, the Stargazer ending in Reject implies they ended the Cycle WAY sooner than we did, because we gave them all the information they needed.  They didn't have to get into some long, dragged-out war against the Reapers because we told them everything they'd need to know to finish it.

Yes, it means they still had to go to the Catalyst, but I can imagine that the conversation didn't take place over a scorched planet and that the Catalyst might have even been a little surprised at how soon the next cycle found him.

[UWxMaserati]

Wait, just thinking...

Liara's project saved the next cycle... The Asari had the Prothean VI on Thessia all those years and it knew about the Reapers and helped them become such an advanced race. Why wouldn't the Asari have seen this coming?

[Vaktathi]

Shallyah wrote...

If you feel insulted by the Reject ending you really need to grow up.

One will notice that it's not just people here that feel that way, several news articles have pointed out that it appears to be a swipe at the playerbase.

[Father_Jerusalem]

I don't see it as a personal insult, but then I'm mature enough to not see every single aspect of everything that exists in the world that I disagree with as a slap in the face.

Other than Chuck ending. That one was absolutely NBC slapping me, personally. in the face. You'll get yours, Leno. Oh yes you will.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I liked having the option to tell the kid to bugger off. But yeah that end should have been more fleshed out. I wanted to see Shep go out in a blaze of glory.

I accidentally picked the refuse ending a second time by shooting the kid. Thought it was nifty that shooting him actually bothers him now.

[dreman9999]

Oransel wrote...

JohnTheJohn wrote...

Why is it an insult, it was obvious the Reapers weren't gonna be destroyed without the crucible.

No, it was not.

How many ways do they have to show and say convention mean would not defeat the reapers? How do you defeat something that make limitles units and soilders?

[Siansonea]

I like the reject ending. Not sure what people were expecting. I think it was implemented well.

[flanny]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

flanny wrote...
 and a patronising person from the next cycle telling us we chose the wrong option.

Umm, maybe something lost in translation, but for me it came pretty clear - next cycle is deeply grateful to us that "we fought a horrible war, so they dont have to".

they use the cruible (why the reapers haven't made any arrangement after the last time i don't know) to achieve peace, Bioware is telling you what you should have done and why you were wrong to reject their ending.

the next cycle is just grateful for the cruible blueprints and reaper tactical data 

[dreman9999]

UWxMaserati wrote...

Wait, just thinking...

Liara's project saved the next cycle... The Asari had the Prothean VI on Thessia all those years and it knew about the Reapers and helped them become such an advanced race. Why wouldn't the Asari have seen this coming?

Because the prothean where too dumb to think that other race communicate differently then they do. Really, how would the asari get to the VI with out the cipher?

[gmboy902]

If anything has been reinforced over the series, it is that conventional victory against thousands and thousands of Reapers is. not. possible.

I liked the Refuse ending. Although, I nominated to play along with his words until I had the opportunity to shoot that little bastard between the eyes.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Umm, nowhere it was said they used a crucible. Headcanon?
And why would they use it if it didn't work?
Lets not speculate ok?

BTW, I would like to point out again, that if cycle completed "as usual", Asari should be harvested 100%. How come you see Asari as Stargazer?

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 27 juin 2012 - 08:26 .

[UltmtBiz]

Yeah one of their goals here was to insult their fans. Nice try. People asked for it and we got it. I'll be careful I don't look at you wrong. You might flip out.

[spacefiddle]

Sauruz wrote...

spacefiddle wrote...

They did not include Harbinger's voice with the Starchild by accident. 

You are right, they did not include Harbinger's voice.
Seriously. Why does everybody say that? Did nobody ever hear Harbinger's voice? I always thought he was kind of obnoxious but now people pretend they can't tell his voice from any other.

Turn on subtitles, QED.

[mrcanada]

Vaktathi wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

If you feel insulted by the Reject ending you really need to grow up.

One will notice that it's not just people here that feel that way, several news articles have pointed out that it appears to be a swipe at the playerbase.

[Malanek]

It's the idealist choice. Don't compromise your ideals even in the face of Armageddon. I thought it was well done and your sacrifice, along with Liara's work, helped the next cycle. I thought it was well done, touching, but I would never have made that choice myself.

[Dragoonlordz]

Vaktathi wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

If you feel insulted by the Reject ending you really need to grow up.

One will notice that it's not just people here that feel that way, several news articles have pointed out that it appears to be a swipe at the playerbase.

News articles are written by individuals, one persons opinion on what someone tells him or her. Opinions are not facts, your assumption that they did it to swipe at you is just that an opinion not fact. Just like articles do not prove it as fact did so either.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 27 juin 2012 - 08:29 .

[suprarj]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

wryterra wrote...

I am arguing that if they're going to give us the reject choice they do it better than this, in a way that doesn't strike me personally as insultingly dismissive. 

Just to be clear, would you have preferred there to be no refuse option at all, to what was provided?


It IS shorter, but is it really dismissive?  If it was just to be a shot at the fanbase, wouldn't it have been better to just say "oh well you lose" and wrap it up there?

Instead we get a video showing Liara talking about our past experiences and even get a unique sequence with a Stargazer where Shepard's legacy lives on based on what the future cycle learned from all of his hard work.

In fact, even with the refuse ending, the galaxy is still ultimately able to break free of the Reapers and largely holds Shepard responsible for being able to do so.

but how would the future cycle include humans who look identical to Shepard-cycle humans?  If the idea is that the reaper ships look like the species they assimilate, Shepard shooting the star child means that a human reaper would ultimately be created.  

Basically what I'm saying is that it should've been an Elcor stargazer telling an elephant about how they broke free.

[Thaa_solon]

Maybe Allen can answer a crucial question I have

Why all the lies/false statments from the ME team?