238 réponses à ce sujet

[timedagar]

Aether McLoud wrote...

timedagar wrote...

I give Credit to Bioware for thier 'attempt' to expand and clarify. IMHO the EC turned a really bad ending experience into somthing moderately acceptable, and all of it should should have been there to begin with. In this thread I am going to zoom in on one specific thing i didnt like about the scene, and it was mentioned before, but there is more to it that bugs me...

Helios969 wrote...

...

A shuttle instead of the Normandy would have been much more realistic.

...

Its more than a problem of realism. its a problem where it should not be possible to bring the Normandy Down to earth for a pick up like that. Its actually a contradiction to ME Universe established cannon.

The Normandy SR2 is larger than the SR1. on the order of nearly twice as big. in ME2 This prevents the Normandy SR2 from doing Tactical drops the way the SR1 did with the Mako in ME1.

in Fact, it is actually explained within ME2 that they cant use the mako, and now need to use shuttles, or the Hamnmerhead instead because the size of the SR2 Makes it unable to do the low altitude drops required to use the Mako. This reasoning was given initially to gracefully cut out a Gameplay feature that wasnt carried over. The Mako Ground missions.

Why cant i do any more mako missions? oh, well people didnt like them, and the SR2 cant do that anyways because its too big to pull it off. Sure, the SR1 did a 100m area short drop on Ilos, Barely, but the SR2 which is stated in game that it cant even get that far down into orbit can now do an evac in a hot zone.

I enjoyed the scene, I like the clarity, but the contradition breaks my suspention of disbelief. Bioware is really reaching on this one. But hey, thats really not a problem if youve never played the previous two right? yuck

The SR2 already did the same low-altitude evac-missions on Earth and Mars at the beginning of ME3 though.

Really? Been 3 months since I saw the beginning. I thought it was shuttles on Earth and Mars. I guess if they already decided the normandy can do something they previously said it cant and I missed it the frist two times, I should let it slide the third. Fool me twice shame on me? hehehe

[Icesong]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Tekkez wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Okay people who think its ridiculous. Post your favorite movie/game/book story so everyone can point out ten times during the story the heros should have died but were saved by plot shield. Seriously, this complaining is what is ridiculous.

"Other things do it so it's fine"

A poor argument.

It's not. It's an argument about how fiction works. If the villains always did the pragmatic and realistic thing 90% of stories would be like two chapters long. People should get over it.

Harbinger shooting you or not isn't the only problem with that scene. You should stop telling people to get over it and see what the criticism is. Start with the absurdity of stopping the gauntlet run to put your friends' temporary well-being over the ultimate fate of the galaxy.

Modifié par Icesong, 27 juin 2012 - 02:24 .

[DiebytheSword]

Okay, I have totally mixed feelings on this, and its one of the EC's down points for me.

I loved the final interaction with the LI, or whomever you have with you, but the scene was troublingly badly thought out for all the reasons thus far posted. Harbinger doesn't shoot the Normandy down?

It like playing D&D with my wife, happy bunny time thrown in the middle of a firefight, but at least the happy bunny time was good.

[I-AM-KROGAN]

If only jack was there

"Jack..i love you, you need to go"
Jack: *holding Back tears* "You ******..." *

That would seriously break me down in to bits.

[CronoDragoon]

Cyne wrote...

Fingertrip wrote...

Cyne wrote...

You know what would have been cool and unexpected? If the love interest blocked your path to the beam and you were forced to either kill them to get them out of the way, or hesitate and risk losing everything to the reapers. They should have shown a big conflict between Shepard's loyalty to his friends/LI, and his desire to complete the mission. That would have been a fun ending.

Sounds incredibly stupid if you ask me.

Really? Stupider than harbinger waiting patiently as shepard says good bye to his LI? Suit yourself.

Edit: also I didnt mean for them to literally block your path, I meant it as a metaphor, to represent shepard's internal conflict.

In other words, the vehicle lands on your LI and pins them down, and Harbinger starts aiming at them, also opening the path to the beam? You can take your shot at the beam or go save them and risk losing your chance? That actually sounds like something Bioware would do.

[ashwind]

Hammer6767 wrote...
Pretty much every one of my favorite movies would end in the first five minutes if the "bad guy" would just shoot the protaganist instead of talking to him/her.  

 QFT

[o Ventus]

JEPrDEE 


The fact he is immobilized and not moving towards the beam reinforces my original statement.

Way to miss the point. The Normandy's mobility is irrelevant. They're fighting a total war, one attrition, the Reapers shouldn't be just allowing an enemy craft (especially one that has been shown to be able to inflict significant damage to their own forces) to make a slow, low-altitude maneuver like that. It isnt like Hammer has an infinite amount of ground forces.


I find I laughable that Shepard is actually able to hold a conversation while Harbinger obliterates the other soldiers.

[CronoDragoon]

Icesong wrote...

Harbinger shooting you or not isn't the only problem with that scene. You should stop telling people to get over it and see what the criticism is. Start with the absurdity of stopping the gauntlet run to put your friends' temporary well-being over the ultimate fate of the galaxy.

In a vacuum, it makes less sense, but the scene is there to explain how your squad gets on the Normandy, which everyone complained about. I am not saying the scene is perfect, but if you feel that the scene detracts more than it adds I just don't see it.

I know the criticisms. No, the scene doesn't make a lot of sense. I can tell people to get over it because I did.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 27 juin 2012 - 02:30 .

[1upD]

 I loved that scene. The 'Refusal' ending was disappointing but that final scene with Tali made the EC worth it to me. The original scene was lacking so much. I was offended by how Shepard didn't seem to give a care that Tali (and Garrus) were presumably DEAD. The new scene makes so much sense and gave closure on Shepard's relationship. I almost cried when she said "But Shepard...I already...HAVE...a home" ;-;

[NRieh]

The SR2 already did the same low-altitude evac-missions on Earth and Mars at the beginning of ME3 though.

On mars they dropped in shuttle, on Earth - it was not supposed to be like that for given reasons. But it was landed into dry docks, so back then it is THEORETHICALLY possible to accept that they were maneuvering within atmosphere on low altitudes, they were not going DOWN from space, they were taking off best way they could... and Normandy did not LAND there, it was "hanging" at some height and going up.

I wrote about this one in Kaidan's thread and may quote myself here, as I reallly-really dislike all the normandy line:

So...they hurt him. Again. Same plot move as on Mars in the beginnig of the game. Hurt Kaidan badly and take him away from squad. Happening in last few minutes of your gameplay. And they hurt him by throwing second mako (first one was for Shep, but she was more lucky).

All remember we need to get to thу beam asap? Good that someone does. All remember that Harbi is firing all the way?(just in case someone missed it). Shep knows (s)he needs to run on, does (s)he leave Kaidan with barely hurt [squad member] to wait for help? Tells them both to retreat to HQs or stay down safe? Calls for nearby medic? Uses medigel herself?? Nooo, Shep NEEDSEVACNAOO.

And not just some "EVACNAOO", but Normandy. Which should
1. leave "sword" fleet fighting some reapers up there
2. take shep's coordinates (discarding the fact that beam messes with navigation - remember you had to drag destroyer closer off beam to you so that EDI-navigated missles would hit him?)
3. maneuver into atmosphere and descend to ground point (there are people down there, running, shooting, I know it's Joker we're talking about, he could throw mako in 20m on SR1, but landing a cruiser on a battlefield full of people?..uhm...ok, let's suppose he can do it as well) .You were flying airplanes, I think (most of you, at least once). How much time does it take to descend from around 5000-6000m? Physics are still there, they don't dive in, they need to drop speed, they need to follow descending curve...I mean it's not a matter of 1-2-3 minutes, not even for a Joker.

But...Normandy comes. And we have The Scene. I'd say - not bad scene, good one, actually, but, excuse me, how many times may people say goodby to each other? Night before. London. This scene just kills London farewell. It makes it useless. They DID say all they needed to (sorry for broshep, though). They did understand each other. They did NOT need to say more of it once again aloud, in the middle of battlefield when everything is at stake.

I did not shed a single tear, honestly. Since mako hit, I was just staring at the screen, how BW took controll over MY shepard and by my own order sent them all away. By the way, why did they BOTH leave? [Squad member] is not even injured (Garrus for me, really, Vakarian??). There were two avengered soldiers(whom were they shooting at? Harbi? There were just our soldiers running...)-I'm sure they could take Kaidan into medbay if he needed support. And additional question - how did rest of crew get aboard? Did Joker made a short fly-by over HQ to get them back?.. Hell lotta time, I'd say. And Harbi was just staring and waiting for them to say "ILY"...good old Harbi, he knows when to shoot Shepards.

[Fingertrip]

Cyne wrote...

Fingertrip wrote...

Cyne wrote...

You know what would have been cool and unexpected? If the love interest blocked your path to the beam and you were forced to either kill them to get them out of the way, or hesitate and risk losing everything to the reapers. They should have shown a big conflict between Shepard's loyalty to his friends/LI, and his desire to complete the mission. That would have been a fun ending.

Sounds incredibly stupid if you ask me.

Really? Stupider than harbinger waiting patiently as shepard says good bye to his LI? Suit yourself.

Edit: also I didnt mean for them to literally block your path, I meant it more as a metaphor, to represent shepard's internal conflict.

More pressing matter to stop Soldiers that are more closer to the vaccinity of reaching the Conduit is probably one reason why he doesn't fire at the Normandy. You don't peel targets in the far back, you take the more dangerous threats prior to that. Another one is the Reaper IFF, another pausible action is still ... well, he doesn't want him dead. Speculate.

[Aether McLoud]

CronoDragoon wrote...

It's not. It's an argument about how fiction works. If the villains always did the pragmatic and realistic thing 90% of stories would be like two chapters long. People should get over it.

Edit: I'm also going to assume all of you despise the Metal Gear Solid series, being probably the biggest transgressor in the plot shield regard.

I second this. All the people arguing "Harbinger totally should have shot the Normandy" sound like they have never seen another movie, series, read a comic or played another video game.

Unless the scene calls for it, talking is mostly a free action (meaning our heroes can't be killed mid-dialogue) and when the plot calls for it certain people will have plot armor.

That's just basic storytelling tropes as old as dirt (i.e. even Homer's Odyssee already used them, or the Epic of Gilgamesh).

But tropes aren't bad. 
http://tvtropes.org/.../TropesAreTools 

[JEPrDEE]

o Ventus wrote...

JEPrDEE 


The fact he is immobilized and not moving towards the beam reinforces my original statement.

Way to miss the point. The Normandy's mobility is irrelevant. They're fighting a total war, one attrition, the Reapers shouldn't be just allowing an enemy craft (especially one that has been shown to be able to inflict significant damage to their own forces) to make a slow, low-altitude maneuver like that. It isnt like Hammer has an infinite amount of ground forces.


I find I laughable that Shepard is actually able to hold a conversation while Harbinger obliterates the other soldiers.

I was just adding to your only reply to me 'With the Normandy being the only one sitting immobilized, extracting Shepard's squad. Weak excuse is weak'

If its irrelevent dont mention it please.

[Icesong]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Harbinger shooting you or not isn't the only problem with that scene. You should stop telling people to get over it and see what the criticism is. Start with the absurdity of stopping the gauntlet run to put your friends' temporary well-being over the ultimate fate of the galaxy.

In a vacuum, it makes less sense, but the scene is there to explain how your squad gets on the Normandy, which everyone complained about. I am not saying the scene is perfect, but if you feel that the scene detracts more than it adds I just don't see it.

I know the criticisms. No, the scene doesn't make a lot of sense. I can tell people to get over it because I did.

The only thing it adds is an explanation for how your squadmates ended up on the ship, and it's not like they couldn't have handled that another way. The final goodbye was hollow coming off the half an hour Long Goodbye you just got finished with. We just did this, Liara. The emotion of the scene, if there is any, doesn't pierce through how ridiculous I find the entire situation. Or my frustration at auto-Shepard taking over.

But maybe I'll like it better the second time around when it won't be so jarring.

Modifié par Icesong, 27 juin 2012 - 02:36 .

[Cyne]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Cyne wrote...

Fingertrip wrote...

Cyne wrote...

You know what would have been cool and unexpected? If the love interest blocked your path to the beam and you were forced to either kill them to get them out of the way, or hesitate and risk losing everything to the reapers. They should have shown a big conflict between Shepard's loyalty to his friends/LI, and his desire to complete the mission. That would have been a fun ending.

Sounds incredibly stupid if you ask me.

Really? Stupider than harbinger waiting patiently as shepard says good bye to his LI? Suit yourself.

Edit: also I didnt mean for them to literally block your path, I meant it as a metaphor, to represent shepard's internal conflict.

In other words, the vehicle lands on your LI and pins them down, and Harbinger starts aiming at them, also opening the path to the beam? You can take your shot at the beam or go save them and risk losing your chance? That actually sounds like something Bioware would do.

lol not quite as obvious as that (and putting it like that does make it sound stupid I admit) Something more like Shepard ordering everyone out for the final mission, and telling the LI they have to stay behind for some BS reason. They end up on the ground anyway, and you end up half trying to protect them and half trying to finish the mission.

[o Ventus]

JEPrDEE wrote...


If its irrelevent dont mention it please.

Have you ever heard the phrase "context is everything". 

If not, I would study it. I was replying to a point you made. Ergo, I was refuting your claim. 

[Subject9x]

Aether McLoud wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

It's not. It's an argument about how fiction works. If the villains always did the pragmatic and realistic thing 90% of stories would be like two chapters long. People should get over it.

Edit: I'm also going to assume all of you despise the Metal Gear Solid series, being probably the biggest transgressor in the plot shield regard.

I second this. All the people arguing "Harbinger totally should have shot the Normandy" sound like they have never seen another movie, series, read a comic or played another video game.

Unless the scene calls for it, talking is mostly a free action (meaning our heroes can't be killed mid-dialogue) and when the plot calls for it certain people will have plot armor.

That's just basic storytelling tropes as old as dirt (i.e. even Homer's Odyssee already used them, or the Epic of Gilgamesh).

But tropes aren't bad. 
http://tvtropes.org/.../TropesAreTools 

sure tropes are tools, that doesn't give the execution of them a free pass. In this case, the execution is quite poor, you see harbinger obliterating everything else in front of you, all units are destroyed in a singular blasts with harbinger firiing two lasers in a rate of fire at least I've never seen before in reapers. The cut back to harbinger just sitting there not firing at the advancing crew doesn't help the scenes case either. I expected the Normandy to be attacked by harbinger, free actions or not. Again, its the execution that is bad.

[Marta Rio II]

Sure, there are logic problems with this scene, but damn if it's better than the alternative, i.e. squadmates that magically appear on the Normandy for no apparent reason. I mean, in the original ending I couldn't tell if it was a glitch or what Bioware intended.

Now at least it's clear, and you get a nice little character moment too. Sure you have to suspend disbelief for a few seconds, but there are plenty of movies that take a "time out" during the action to have some character interaction/dialogue. As far as I'm concerned, the benefits of this scene outweigh its faults.

[Rolling Flame]

Aether McLoud wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

It's not. It's an argument about how fiction works. If the villains always did the pragmatic and realistic thing 90% of stories would be like two chapters long. People should get over it.

Edit: I'm also going to assume all of you despise the Metal Gear Solid series, being probably the biggest transgressor in the plot shield regard.

I second this. All the people arguing "Harbinger totally should have shot the Normandy" sound like they have never seen another movie, series, read a comic or played another video game.

Unless the scene calls for it, talking is mostly a free action (meaning our heroes can't be killed mid-dialogue) and when the plot calls for it certain people will have plot armor.

That's just basic storytelling tropes as old as dirt (i.e. even Homer's Odyssee already used them, or the Epic of Gilgamesh).

But tropes aren't bad. 
http://tvtropes.org/.../TropesAreTools 

Besides, nobody would be happy if the Normandy was shot down, causing it to crash down and kill everyone in the area.

[TobiTobsen]

Harbinger obviously. Otherwise he would've one shotted the Normandy.

[Siven80]

TudorWolf wrote...

The scene itself is nice... but where and when it happens is just too awkward to get over.

It's like Life or death final charge -> Squadmates get hurt and then Shep yells time out! and then everything just conveniently freezes, even Harbinger, who just stands there in the background like a lemon. It's pretty ridiculous.

I appreciate that Bioware were trying to fix something a lot of people complained about, but what they added adds more problems

^^ This.

Scene is nice......its just that its at the worst time and make you go...."WTF get to the beam you idiot " and "why couldnt you drop me here at the start Joker", along with "Oh look at the big enemy just watching you talk away to my friends in a supposedly rush to the beam moment ... and its doing nothing!".

[Dracotamer]

It was out of place and added more plotholes. It was stupid.

[Tekkez]

alleyd wrote...
Still you got the chance to say goodbye to your LI and that seems to make people happy.

Shepard and his LI could have a picnic in the middle of a war zone and some of these people would be happy with it. They don't care about logic if they get to spend time with their waifus

[DS Monkfish]

Marta Rio II wrote...

Sure, there are logic problems with this scene, but damn if it's better than the alternative, i.e. squadmates that magically appear on the Normandy for no apparent reason. I mean, in the original ending I couldn't tell if it was a glitch or what Bioware intended.

Now at least it's clear, and you get a nice little character moment too. Sure you have to suspend disbelief for a few seconds, but there are plenty of movies that take a "time out" during the action to have some character interaction/dialogue. As far as I'm concerned, the benefits of this scene outweigh its faults.

Very much this.